Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MaZa 04-07-07, 10:51 AM	So, what level party would be required to storm a mid-sized Drow city? Let's assume that it's a relatively large party, 8 PCs or so. And what would be the most viable way to do so? (this is a hypothetical question, btw.. at least for now :P )
Derren S. 04-07-07, 10:58 AM	Define "mid-sized". It would all depend if you us the normal "most people are commoners" rule for drow cities or buy into the drowfanatics "Every drow is at least a 10th level leetfighter".
Tergiver 04-07-07, 11:28 AM	Depends on the city, and depends on what you mean by "storm". Is this a surgical strike or a smash & grab against one house? Is this "wipe them out - all of them"? Regardless, don't forget slave races, hidden weirdnesses, and summoned allies.
Grandmaster_Kane 04-07-07, 11:37 AM	depends on the drow city everybody you will be encoutering thou will be between 10-15 thou except the matrons (if menzoberrazan) some are epic
MaZa 04-07-07, 11:52 AM	I was thinking something like quarter to half of the size of Menzoberrazan. And it's not just a surgical strike or action against a single house but mostly wrecking the city and killing significant portion of the drow in there.
redmagefish 04-07-07, 11:54 AM	your screwed
Zanan 04-07-07, 12:10 PM	There is a little story like that recorded for Dambrath. Humans went into mining too deep, got entangled with the drow. The latter made some incursions to the surface and the humans thought it best to bring the battle into the drow city itself and were slaughtered. The drow returned in forced and killed thousands of humans on the surface ... and with a little help of some friends - i.e. half-drow priestesses of Loviatar - made Dambrath a vassal state. Situation have changed these days, but the drow city in question was small by Faerūnian standards. Menzo is a defo no-go unless you get your people up to level 20 and into deep suicide mood.
Tergiver 04-07-07, 12:31 PM	Okay, so we're talking between five to ten thousand drow, not to mention slaves and servitor races. Wrecking the city is going to foil just about everyone's plans, so you'd have to fight any powerful matrons, mages, or weird people with their own agendas (studying liches, polymorphed dragons, etc). Not to mention that when the seriousness of the situation becomes apparent, the matrons and priestesses are going to try to cut some very quick deals with some very unpleasant beings. Eight characters would need to be worried about being overrun by thousands of panicking/fanatic slave races, and the relative speed/stealth of adventuring parties doesn't help you a lot if you're staying to slug it out. I would say: for 1/4 the size of Menzo, you could probably do it in the high teens (unless you were very unlucky about who was hiding there). For 1/2 or more, probably at least low epic would be required. Prepare escape spells (I recommend plane shift) and beware surprises and revenge. If you just wanted to deny the city site to the drow, you might be able to get away with that in the mid teens if you can find their weak point (a la stonefire and Ched Nasad). I have some questions about whether this is a good act - not necessarily what happens to the drow and servitor race noncombatants, but what happens to the slave races? Of course, then there's the question if you succeed: what fills the power vacuum? Heh, heh, heh, heh.
MaZa 04-07-07, 01:11 PM	I have some questions about whether this is a good act - not necessarily what happens to the drow and servitor race noncombatants, but what happens to the slave races? I guess the slave races (at least the ones who have survived the fight) could be set free.. :P
Kerym Ammath 04-07-07, 01:25 PM	Storming and seizing a city is often a foolish waste of manpower and material. Additionally regardless of the size of your adventuring group, or the level of the PC's you are going to require an army to accomplish this goal. Without an army and a carefully planned, and executed offensive you will all die. Based on your limited description as the drow I have the advantage of entrenchment (being in a defensive position), numbers, logistics, and firepower. Storming or charging into the **** hoping you and your pals are just such badasses well enjoy the suicide party, I am sure the DM will smile at the TPK. From a game mechanics stand point (how the universe works) the stack of cards is very much against you. In mass warfare your fighters and rogues are going to get whittled away by pure chance and numbers. Your wizards and clerics will run out of spells quickly and be unable to rest and study to recover. Let's not forget that in the underdark teleport often does not work or is drastically reduced in range. They will find you and kill you while you sleep. No if you want to win the last thing you will do is storm them.
MaZa 04-07-07, 01:55 PM	Of course it's a stupid idea to just charge in unprepared, and that's not what I was thinking. Researching some big area effect spells that are effective against large amounts of low level opponents (such as bigger area Cloudkill or such) and making staffs of them would be critical, for example. And I guess you could hire mercenaries and/or get followers to help you.. or you could try to collapse the cavern before attacking to weaken them. Also, instead of resting in Underdark (which is obviously a BAD idea in situation like that) or teleporting you could planeshift or gate out of there.
Kerym Ammath 04-07-07, 02:52 PM	Plane Shift is not accurate enough to allow a return to the battlefield and Gate is a 9th level spell which your party would have to make it to and through. If you are fighting with minimal dispersion it makes you vulnerable to the same area effect spells you want to use on them. If you are spread out the likelihood of abandoning teammates who can't make it to the gate increases. Either way you are removing yourselves from the battlefield and opening yourself up to counterattacks if they track you. They will find you and then the sledgehammer will fall. As far as you using area effect spells well a city is a perfect place for the defenders to not be on top of each other. The defense would inevitably be designed to draw you into easy kill zones, and once again your party would get mauled. An army using every tool in the box could do it. A party of 8 adventurers highly doubtful unless the Dm makes the drow complete pushovers. As far as cave ins etc., well the city has been there most likely for hundreds if not thousands of years. Warding and strentghtening the space where the city exists would undoubtedly be of the utmost importance. Something that would not easily be overcome by a couple of spells.
MaZa 04-07-07, 03:37 PM	You wouldn't have to return to the battlefield using Planeshift if you are escaping. And could they track you even if you planeshift out from the plane where you escaped first? And you could hide into a place which doesn't like drow armies marching in. These things should eliminate the possibility of counterattack. But would a party be unable to do it, even if they were around 30th level, and have a bunch followers/mercenaries which are 15-18ish levels?
Kerym Ammath 04-07-07, 04:16 PM	As far as plane shift goes, scrying is always fun. The response does not need to be immediate, much better to gather information. Kidnap people your characters care about. Deliver some body parts to you as messages, etc. If you attack and don't finish them off, you are inviting a future in which you can always be sure all of you will be hunted. When you least expect, one of you gets offed, and it is made to look like someone else did it, preferably an enemy of the drow. They will have you doing their work for them. Regardless high enough levels, and an army, with appropriate planning, yes of course you could take out a drow city, but to truly "storm" it. To truly storm it, you better have at least 5 times as many troops as they do, and equal numbers of characters with levels. If you do it with less your DM was essentially handing you an easy win. Of course if you asked me about storming a human city it would be almost as difficult. As far as I am concerned drow have a couple of things going for them, but any greater proportions of levelled characters than any other race is not one of them. They have a natural level adjustment of +2 so in essence they are all 3rd level treat appropriately.
Zanan 04-07-07, 04:30 PM	You wouldn't have to return to the battlefield using Planeshift if you are escaping. And could they track you even if you planeshift out from the plane where you escaped first? And you could hide into a place which doesn't like drow armies marching in. These things should eliminate the possibility of counterattack. But would a party be unable to do it, even if they were around 30th level, and have a bunch followers/mercenaries which are 15-18ish levels? Me as a DM would simply have the drow ask for help from dark mum, which the latter is hardly willing to decline if things go extraordinarily against her kin. You see, matrons range from levels 10 to 17 (rarely making it 20). If you come in with genocide people wanting only to hack'n slash anything about, the lasses will perform the usual ritual, call on a yochlol (pretty tough these days - Fiendish Codex I), tell the story and ask for help. And having a horde of yochlol and myrlochar on their tails is not what the PCs will want to have, whatever level they are. ... As in: the drow will not sit there and await their fate at the hands of some would-be conquerors. Speaking of conquerors ... they have to get to the city in the first place. As in, find the way, get supplies in (if they have mercenaries), have a place to retreat to and all. And rest assured, of all races of Faerūn, the drow will be one of those with most contacts there.
Treymordin 04-07-07, 05:01 PM	Not going to happen unless you want to end up dead or a slave.
Stigger 04-07-07, 05:03 PM	Well, presuming you had access to some pretty high level magic and a bit of imagination, you could just use a extended superior invisibility, some crafted magical 'time-bombs', some that extend an antimagic field and some that detonate with absurd amounts of sonic energy, a spider climb spell, and some sneaking up to the ceiling of the cavern that the city resides in, planting the antimagic bombs strategically to undermine and weaken the magics helping keep the city's cave intact, then having the sonic bombs going off to bring down the rest of the cavern, hopefully after you've left the area. Mind you that's ignoring the larger problem of actually getting trough the Underdark and into the city and past the patrols without being noticed and engaged... trying to do it after you've alerted them to your presence would probably be akin to suicide unless you have an incredibly high level rogue doing the demolitions. Though perhaps you could purposefully engage the city in what looks like an abortive raid to distract them from your actual plan. Misdirection is a fine old military tactic. Dunno, could work if you had a bit of luck.
MaZa 04-07-07, 05:08 PM	Regardless high enough levels, and an army, with appropriate planning, yes of course you could take out a drow city, but to truly "storm" it. To truly storm it, you better have at least 5 times as many troops as they do, and equal numbers of characters with levels. If you do it with less your DM was essentially handing you an easy win. I guess storming was a bad choice of word.. being able to take out and wreck the city would do just as well. And how about using epic mass killing spells like Tolodine's killing wind (Player's Guide to Faerun)? It makes 100 10' cubes of acid clouds which do 20D6 damage, and those clouds can be directed.. and it has duration of 20 hours. And this could be combined with collapsing the roof.. Still, it is true that the drow could ask help from mummy.
Stigger 04-07-07, 05:43 PM	Could work... but if you can cast spells like that, I'm not sure it wouldn't be more effective to gate in a few solars with epic summoning spells and then hold the gates of the city against people trying to flee. You could conceivably get 6 solars for a spellcraft dc around 30 or so with enough mitigating factors (player made ad hoc ones particularly). It'd hurt quite a bit more than likely, but it's doable, and not that bad if you had a priest with a heal spell handy.
Kerym Ammath 04-07-07, 05:52 PM	If you have epic spells available what makes you think for even one second your opponent won't have it available also, and likely in greater numbers. Additionally when it comes to large battles, magic is expected, and will often be countered. If your opponent does not have any epic magic and you do, in this situation, once again thank your DM for handing you an easy victory.
Derren S. 04-07-07, 05:57 PM	A additional problem is that drow are portrayed in a very "unlogical" way (to stay politically correct) in the realms. Having so many warriors and so few "other" people like drow cities have (in novels) the eonomy would be close to nenexistant. There would be no food, no ressources and no industrial power. At least according to novels drow cities are more compareable to army camps than cities and could not work over a longer periode of time because of the lack of ressources.
Stigger 04-07-07, 06:09 PM	Well, in all likelihood, given the size of the city the OP seems to be referring to, I'd say it was a good bet they don't have epic spellcasters. Fight smart, not hard sort of thing was what I'd say the OP was trying to go for.
MaZa 04-07-07, 06:13 PM	Hmm.. that solar summoning could be a good idea, too. But how about making a greater rod of persisting and using it to persis Gate spells and summon solars that way? Though it'd probably be cheaper to just research that epic spell.. If you have epic spells available what makes you think for even one second your opponent won't have it available also, and likely in greater numbers. Additionally when it comes to large battles, magic is expected, and will often be countered. If your opponent does not have any epic magic and you do, in this situation, once again thank your DM for handing you an easy victory. But realistically, would a city of that size really have many epic spellcasters?
Calmar 04-07-07, 06:15 PM	Sneak in and poison the slave's water supplies. That should weaken the economy. Then waylay their supply routes and hope the drow are not smarter than my instant siege-plans. ;)
Grandmaster_Kane 04-07-07, 07:52 PM	we the player hand box said a at least level 15 mage could storm a castle by himself so if you exstrapalate you would need 8 level about 35 ish people
Kerym Ammath 04-07-07, 08:09 PM	What is the likelihood of having 8 epic pc's running around? Sure undoubtedly higher, but since this has been presented with a pure how high a level mentality and no clear explanation of what the pc's disposition is, I will continue in that thread with a single question. Is it meant to be a challenge? If the answer is then your DM will undoubtedly array whatever is necessary before you for it to be so, up to and including a means to neutralize your epic spell advantage, regardless of it making sense.
Walls 04-07-07, 08:12 PM	No party could. Period.
redmagefish 04-07-07, 08:26 PM	think one cross bow poison could kill or make you black out even if it clipped you. the drow senses heat so you would need to hidden it the shadows the whole times trying to mask you heat with ice spells if that does not kill you must drow would must likly sense the magic.killing the slaves is even worst you kill 5000 untrianed and unarmed beast which makes the matron mothers call to loth.loth sends info on the party and help so now you kill 5000 unarmed goblins and got aat least 25 beasts of loth and about 2000 highly trained trakers on your tracking followed by mind flayers and gray dwarfs must likly 100 mind flayers 300 to 1000 gray dwarfs that use psion and can kill you from a few 100 feet away.then you have 3000 to 4000 new and old troops marching with the matrons and the matrons allies lichs with lich that means maybe 50 sipirts that will try to cut you off.plus maybe 100 mage warroirs at can cast a long range plus summon undead so 50 more undead and not just zombies the really deal wrath like things and other plane beasts so thats like 25 beasts plus the loths clerics ones thats 50 planer beasts. 5,650 roughly if you are lucky. 7,350 if unlucky plus 300 beasts you find in the underdark passages ways. so thats about 500 pro magic and psion users if lucky about 1300 plus the 15 to 30 lichs that may help with magic as well as undead o and 35 demons that will cast magic mustly 15 are going to use brute force. then poisons the drows weopens the demons tails or spikes the lichs can cast poisons on your food and water from afar. so i would get out of there and pray they do not send demons and sirits to kill you . and on they out watch for mind flayer lichs dragons .lich dragons and so on i would teleport there is no way 8 poeple can take down a drow city. god that was alot of tpying
Walls 04-07-07, 09:26 PM	Punctuation :'( But yeah... couldn't happen. Take the 10 best soldiers of all time, tell them to fight an army... not a chance.
Lykor 04-07-07, 11:02 PM	If you look at the lore, there have been relatively few incursions into drow cities, period, and those that have have all ended in disasters for the invaders. The only real successes I can remember against drow cities are one group of dwarves (can't remember name) and Halaster himself. If you need an actual party, you'd need one stacked heavily on casters, plus a dragon's hoard worth of protection items - rings of regeneration and elemental resistance, status effect negation, energy/ability drain protection, etc. 4 wizards, 2 sorcs, and 2 clerics of 17+ (minimum) might be able to take out a small city, but it'd be dicey. With liberal use of Gate and aoe, it might be enough to convince the drow to cut their losses and leave for a while, but don't expect to hold the city long unless you have the ability to bring in several armies worth of guards. The books kinda detail only the nobility of the cities, if you read between the lines, there is usually a sizable contigent of commoners/servents (probably on the order of 5:1) and a massive number of slaves (10:1). I would imagine drow also trade for a significant number of food stores. So if you have 2k nobility, you would have 10k commoners and 20k slaves of various types.
Critalondel 04-07-07, 11:19 PM	A additional problem is that drow are portrayed in a very "unlogical" way (to stay politically correct) in the realms. Having so many warriors and so few "other" people like drow cities have (in novels) the eonomy would be close to nenexistant. There would be no food, no ressources and no industrial power. At least according to novels drow cities are more compareable to army camps than cities and could not work over a longer periode of time because of the lack of ressources. I think it's just that the novels don't worry about the day-to-day economics and stuff. There's rothe herds that people take care of, mushrooms, fungi, and other stuff for food, plenty of trading with other cities for day-to-day economic needs, etc, etc...but, well, it doesn't make for a very interesting and dramatic book. The novels focus on the fighters, wizards, priestesses, etc, because that's what D&D novels always focus on. Societies where the bulk of basic labor is done by slaves IS possible in the real world (so I'd say doubly possible, in a fantasy setting). If the Spartans can manage it, I'm sure the Drow can (with magic, longevity, etc all on their side).
kaor 04-07-07, 11:30 PM	I'd start by investigating the problem. You need to find a way to get a spy into the city and map it, find out what their forces, population, and resources are. The absolute most important thing is to determine what kind of casters they have and how many. Does the city have any alliances? Any enemies? Can you ally with the enemies and not have the law of unintended consequences bite you in the tail? Squads of Duergar hidden while advancing within cloudkills is a neat idea to me. Can you put hallucinogens in the water supply? There's got to be a one that will work. Any number of gods would probaby bend the rules and help just to see a stoned, hallucinating drow city. Edit: Just want to add their is a big non-sentient (I think) fungus life form under the High Forest. There is another fungus thing somewhere else that is smart. It is kind of related to a mushroom, so maybe it could help with this one. Figure out where their air is coming from. There can't be that many places with portals to the plane of air. Flood tunnels leading to the city using decanters of endless water. Have your monstrous scorpions kick their spider's butts. Rig driders with fire seed bombs. Shove them down their mouths with poles. Let the driders escape. Say the word when they get to their forces. Spell resistance will probably get you, but it's worth a try. You are going to need to make an airtight pact with some Barghests. You are going to have them feed on all clerics and arcane casters. They are going to be Greater Barghests when it is done, and they should be grateful, but you know... Oh and you are going to need a dimensional anchor effect for the whole city. Drow Cities used to be built around areas of strong Faerzress (think that's spelled right). You could have a side quest to find an earth savant (whatever they were called in the Underdark book) who knows how to make an earth node express a dimensional anchor effect. This keeps them from summoning things. And they can't leave. Let those drow know you aren't locked in there with them. They are locked in with you. Just remember to sacrifice the whole city to Cyric. And as regards your actual question, it depends on what levels, classes, and quantity of the inhabitants. Unless you have epic characters or are going to do it the roguish way, you are going to need allies. And a bit of prep and planning time.
Eatable_Dice 04-07-07, 11:48 PM	I'd start by investigating the problem. You need to find a way to get a spy into the city and map it, find out what their forces, population, and resources are. Figure out where their air is coming from. There can't be that many places with portals to the plane of air. Flood tunnels leading to the city using decanters of endless water. Have your monstrous scorpions kick their spider's butts. Rig driders with fire seed bombs. Shove them down their mouths with poles. Let the driders escape. Say the word when they get to their forces. Spell resistance will probably get you, but it's worth a try. You are going to need to make an airtight pact with some Barghests. You are going to have them feed on all clerics and arcane casters. They are going to be Greater Barghests when it is done, and they should be grateful, but you know... Oh and you are going to need a dimensional anchor effect for the whole city. Drow Cities used to be built around areas of strong Faerzress (think that's spelled right). You could have a side quest to find an earth savant (whatever they were called in the Underdark book) who knows how to make an earth node express a dimensional anchor effect. This keeps them from summoning things. And they can't leave. Let those drow know you aren't locked in there with them. They are locked in with you. Just remember to sacrifice the whole city to Cyric. And as regards your actual question, it depends on what levels, classes, and quantity of the inhabitants. Unless you have epic characters or are going to do it the roguish way, you are going to need allies. And a bit of prep and planning time. Those are some nice tips...and: It can be done, and under special circunstances, it can has been done.For more information, see the City of the Spider Queen adventure, although there has been some serious drow-to-drow backstabbing there. If you want to take something in the underdark, you need orcs and goblins, which come by the thousands. Of course, amassing such a force in the vicinity of a drow city is sure to attract some attention, unless you have some way to gate these troops in from somewhere. Using Gate to a plane full of bloodthirsty or/and violent creatures is one very nasty trick, but not useful if you want to stay in the city after the cleanup. Acheron strikes me as a viable option if you really want to bring war upon them. Good luck (and I hope you erradicate those dark-skinned, pointy-eared freaks)
Tergiver 04-08-07, 12:18 AM	Okay, here are my thoughts about how to attempt this for a 17th level party, and presuming a simulationist approach. If your GM is going to precisely scale the encounter to you then it really doesn't matter how big the city is or who you bring with you. First trip: find the strongest opponents you'll face (worst house, powerful temple, or whatever) sneak into their house with a minimum of fuss then and finish them off. If you can't do this, run and give up your plan. If you can do this, loot what you can and then plane shift out. Stay scry-shielded as much as you can (Mordenkainen's private sanctum), then return about a tenday later (hopefully enough time for the infighting to kick in, and for the defenses to start to calm down a bit). Alternatively, hang out someplace like Arvandor or Mount Clangeddin, perhaps with a seeming, and use some of the anticipate teleport spells to get a jump on any pursuers. Divide & conquer. When you return, re-enter the city undetected and split into two four-person groups. (If you can't do that, you're in trouble again.) Let's say they're fighter, rogue, priest, and wizard. Take on the next two houses. If you're in trouble, plane shift out, but realize they'll be more likely to track you or send demons after you this time. Recommended tactics: Wizards: Use your ninth level wizard spells to use Dragonshape (in PHB2) to scare off minions and blast the city up. (Don't forget reverse arrows and stoneskin). Before and after, use lots of area of effect spells to thin the herd, and researching larger, weaker variants of spells is likely to be more useful than relying on Horrid Wilting and Cloudkill (especially since Drow are both spell resistant and poison resistant). Summon meatshields to distract lower-level fighters. Hope anything you summon resists being dismissed and doesn't attack anything with protection from good. Clerics: Save a mass heal, and Gate in a Planetar (which will cost you 1,000 XP and 7,000 GP for 17 hours but will be worth it). Use Storm of Vengeance on the city when you have to fight in the streets. (That is three ninth-level spells, so you may have to give up the Mass Heal). Use Crown of Brilliance to help keep light-sensitive cheezers at a safe distance. Find all the centered-on-me-damage effects you can. Fighters: Get Mind Blanked so you don't fail will saves, and prepare to get overwhelmed by numbers. Make sure you have Cleave (hopefully Great Cleave) and reach. Boost your AC over 30, stock up on healing and try to be a target. Thieves: Mind Blank, Improved Invisibility, and Fly. And Resist Arrows, because someone's going to have See Invisibility. Snipe spellcasters, preferably before they know what's happening. Find some way to have evasion and good reflex saves, or you'll get whittled down. Cast lots of Protection from Energy spells on your friends. Free Action all around. Expect to be disjoined at least once. Save some greater dispels, but spell resistance will just mess up your escape plan and heals. If this works, you're probably going to see less than 1% survival in the drow slaves, which is why I question how capital-G 'Good' this is. Even then, I have to say, I don't give this too high of a chance of working. There are just too many unknowns, and it's too hard to sweep away thousands of lower-level enemies in the rules as written. The Drow are so chaotic you don't know whether Lolth is going to come herself, send an appropriate demon servant to match you, or just make smores.
MaZa 04-08-07, 04:37 AM	Hmm.. good ideas. It would probably be a good idea if every spellcaster capable of doing so first summons a planetar/solar for 17 hours, even if it costs a bit. And about spell resistance.. at 17th level you should be able to automatically get through spell resistance of 17 or more, and as such grunts shouldn't be resisting spells. What is the likelihood of having 8 epic pc's running around? Sure undoubtedly higher, but since this has been presented with a pure how high a level mentality and no clear explanation of what the pc's disposition is, I will continue in that thread with a single question. Is it meant to be a challenge? If the answer is then your DM will undoubtedly array whatever is necessary before you for it to be so, up to and including a means to neutralize your epic spell advantage, regardless of it making sense. Well, this is assuming a simulationist approach (so that the people in city won't atutomatically be of the same level as the party). Besides, taking on a drow city is challenging, even if you have some advantages. :)
Zanan 04-08-07, 04:57 AM	A additional problem is that drow are portrayed in a very "unlogical" way (to stay politically correct) in the realms. Having so many warriors and so few "other" people like drow cities have (in novels) the eonomy would be close to nenexistant. There would be no food, no ressources and no industrial power. At least according to novels drow cities are more compareable to army camps than cities and could not work over a longer periode of time because of the lack of ressources. The problem lies in the portrait, as you said. You hardly get any information on drow agriculture and life support issues unless you dig really deep. The Liriel stories give a few hints, as the Hunzrin family is responsible for that aspect of life in Menzo. It's probably also heavily dependent on in- and export ... but that is not really something of importance in a fantasy game that focusses on heroes, villains, and the places of actions rather than 100% logistics, food supply, and all, though I would assume that Ed made sure that most of what created would work in a real world (supported by magic) as well. Regarding cave-ins, as has been said, drow live in their caverns for thousands of years. To unravel the protective magics cast on the places one would assume that it will take more than the odd greater dispel and earthquake etc.. Regarding stonefire etc., ... might be mistaken here, but Ched Nasad fell to these bombs and the fact that Lolth was silent. Unless I am mistaken, she created these web-strands and had she been awake and well, the divine protective magics might have worked.
MaZa 04-08-07, 05:02 AM	If you want to take something in the underdark, you need orcs and goblins, which come by the thousands. Of course, amassing such a force in the vicinity of a drow city is sure to attract some attention, unless you have some way to gate these troops in from somewhere. I guess you could use Gate spells to transport them to some other plane first, and then Gate them into underdark. I wonder how you would persuade them into such an operation, though? Would promise of loot be enough. Using Gate to a plane full of bloodthirsty or/and violent creatures is one very nasty trick, but not useful if you want to stay in the city after the cleanup. Acheron strikes me as a viable option if you really want to bring war upon them. There wouldn't be need to keep the city after cleanup. Losing loot would be the only issue. :)
Another Gnome 04-08-07, 06:58 AM	Let's put it this way: A very high level party could almost certainly kill thousands of civilians in a drow city with a few well-placed spells, simply because the rules don't support efficient enough countermeasures in a large enough scale to protect general population in any city. But. Not only would said party be wasting resources for no other reason than to show off and wreak havoc (something I personally would not award even story XP for), but getting it done by the book would be a logistical nightmare for a DM to arrange. Hence the realistic options I see for the DM is to either shrug and tell the players they enter the city and kill %d% drow commoners, or spend hours upon hours detailing things out in order to boost some egos.
Walls 04-08-07, 10:43 AM	Everyone is also assuming the city doesn't have it's own defenses, just as formidable priests, wizards and fighters, magic up the yin yang and thousands of soldiers. For every high level adventurer stupid enough to do this, there are a half dozen equally powerful drow in the city.
Derren S. 04-08-07, 10:44 AM	Flood the city. Search for corridors which go slightly upward from teh city, carve out a cave connecting to the corridor and place a Decanter of Endless Water in geyser mode in it and close the cavern with a wall of stone. Do this in one or two dozend corridors and wait till the water pressure is big enough to burst the wall and watch all the water streaming into the drow city.
redmagefish 04-08-07, 11:33 AM	20000 slave and 5000 commons can still kill a.s in any race
Everdreaming 04-08-07, 11:36 AM	You are A:screwed by the size of the army facing you, even if it was only fighters and barbarians. B: Screwed by the clerics and magic users. C: Screwed by stuff on the way down there. D: Screwed because the drow turn out the lights and all of your PCs are humans. or E: Screwed because of every single on of these things.
Treymordin 04-08-07, 12:33 PM	The commoners would fall easier until the nobles enter the field.
Stigger 04-08-07, 12:53 PM	Well, you could always opt for the semi-cheap tactic of having an alchemist brew up some incredibly strong alchemist's fire to the point that it's nearly napalm, store it in barrels stuck in portable holes, Superior Invisibility up the walls with a Spider Climb and drop it in key positions throughout the city... then start counterspelling the casters coming to put out the fire with magic, or better yet drop Antimagic Auras on them. Take a look at some of the feats available in Cityscape for concealing the origin of spells and you could probably inflict some serious damage before being noticed... not sure what you'd do after you were noticed, but it could be a start.
MaZa 04-08-07, 12:56 PM	Hmm.. how six or so Solars would work against the drow city..
Stigger 04-08-07, 12:57 PM	They can be semi-negated with a Protection from Good/Magic Circle against Good spell though, so in a cleric rich environment, they may not be the best of choices upon reflection.
BrennonGoldeye 04-08-07, 01:02 PM	So, what level party would be required to storm a mid-sized Drow city? Let's assume that it's a relatively large party, 8 PCs or so. And what would be the most viable way to do so? (this is a hypothetical question, btw.. at least for now :P ) I know I'm late in on this one. I would say if you mean "storm" as in "old west style rob the bank" in your mid 20's. If you mean "storm" as in conquer. Not. You need an organization, or an army.:)
BrennonGoldeye 04-08-07, 01:10 PM	Flood the city. Search for corridors which go slightly upward from teh city, carve out a cave connecting to the corridor and place a Decanter of Endless Water in geyser mode in it and close the cavern with a wall of stone. Do this in one or two dozend corridors and wait till the water pressure is big enough to burst the wall and watch all the water streaming into the drow city. This is the best suggestion I've seen so far. Hmm, maybe drow specific poison in the water?:plotting: Still, you might be better off picking on a horde of Orcs. :mrt:
Eatable_Dice 04-08-07, 01:12 PM	Solars are not the way to go. Slaad are much better, although they will NOT stick to your side for no more than 15 minutes. On the other hand, if you convince LN outsiders, they will never give up. No matter how large your group is, you are going to need an army. Fiendish orcs, gigantic prime earth elementals or flooding the whole thing and calling your Locathas buddies, you need help. And remember, if any given drow population is sure to have powerful NPC“s around, any given army on your side will have their fair share of commanders and personalities.
MaZa 04-08-07, 01:23 PM	Okay.. so I guess that is out, then. So it leaves flooding etc., acquiring allies or epic mass killing spells. Hmm.. that flooding does look like a good idea. :D But taking out the most powerful house first as Tergiver suggested, and for main assault perhaps Gating in lots of orc and golblin allies for cannon fodder and perhaps using some epic mass killing spell like Killing Wind (but with some additional mitigating factors) is probably the best way for direct assault.. Btw, Gating in huge quantities of alchemist's fire should also work, and it's probably safer than hauling it there yourself. :) You are A:screwed by the size of the army facing you, even if it was only fighters and barbarians. B: Screwed by the clerics and magic users. C: Screwed by stuff on the way down there. D: Screwed because the drow turn out the lights and all of your PCs are humans. or E: Screwed because of every single on of these things. C: You should Gate, not walk there (and trying this before 17th level is a no-no, anyway) D: There are spells which help.. :)
Zanan 04-08-07, 03:44 PM	Hmm.. how six or so Solars would work against the drow city.. Turn this on its head: how would six or so pit fiends work against a city like Baldur's Gate or Atkathla? They would slay their dozens and get greater dispelled or the like at some point. There is no formula to tell you how this or that would work correctly, as in P&P-terms, the dice do the stuff and it would be a hell of a lot of dice-rolling involved. As Another Gnome said, this is more about story telling and as the drow usually have a quite good connection to their goddess, they would at some point call on extra-planar help and will most likely get it easier than anyone else. So throwing in new creatures will not change the scenario that much.
MaZa 04-08-07, 03:59 PM	Though a high-level party could conceivably summon those Solars and then pull off some trick that prevents the Drow from summoning help..
Zanan 04-08-07, 04:47 PM	Though a high-level party could conceivably summon those Solars and then pull off some trick that prevents the Drow from summoning help.. Well, of course they could. The point here is that there are too many variants involved to get an answer. I mean, look, we started of with a "simply" raid on a drow city (of no specific size) with a high level gang, reasoned and got on. Now you put in six or more CR 23 solars to be summoned in - to "support" the adventurers. The question would be: what next? Don't get me wrong here. There is nothing wrong with such hypothetical things, if they remain reasonable. City of the Spider Queen, for example, gives you a decent enough drow stronghold in Szith Morcane. That would be a good option for players and DMs to work with - that is work with reasonable FR standards. If you pull something like Menzoberranzan out of the hat, with a dozen or more epic chaps in the divine and arcane spellcaster classes, you will end up discussing endless scenarios.
MaZa 04-08-07, 05:04 PM	Yes, but if we are talking about a raid done by an adventuring party, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that they would use their resources and capabilities (ie. summoning spells) as best as they can? Though I guess it is true that the guestion becomes harder to answer if they can use more options.. Also, I wasn't talking about Menzoberranzan but some smaller city. :)
Eatable_Dice 04-10-07, 11:49 AM	Or, if everything fails, get gunpowder, make a PC named Samuel Colt and blow them up. ;-)
Kerym Ammath 04-10-07, 01:18 PM	Of course we can assume the adventuring party is going to use everything available to it, and if your DM is worth a damn the drow will be using everything available to them. What they have available will most likely be greater than what you have available. If you don't plan on the worst it will bite you.
Mikayla 04-10-07, 01:31 PM	Eight people attacking a city of thousands just does not pass the straight-face test. Its ludicrous, even with D&D's rules. You might as well as "what party of 10 PCs could level Silverymoon?" Cities like Menzoberranzan have folks like Gromph (23rd level) and Quenthel (19th level or so, but with the most amazing magic..) and such to call upon, and though the drow are reknowned for their infighting, as Valas Hune says near the end of the WotSQ novels, they will "fight like demons" to protect their home. In the end, the Menzoberranyr rallied together to defeat their common enemies and not even the duergar, combined with Kaanyr Vholk's scourged legion could storm the city. So, unless your 8 PCs are at least Hercules-like Demi-Dieties, from a DM standpoint, it should not even be considered. As to flooding, caving in, etc. The drow have lived in the underdark for nigh on 10,000 years - longer than real-life human culture. By now these extremely intelligent, extremely capable, and very magical people have no doubt dealt with floods, fire, cave-ins and earthquakes. The layers of spell protections, their experience, etc, makes an attack by 8 mortal people on a city simply unrealistic. As unrealistic as 8 mortals, of whatever level, simply attacking Waterdeep (yes, I know Waterdeep is much larger, but its the same concept).
Exploit 04-10-07, 01:51 PM	Of course it is possible. You need to have some new technology/magic/tactic that the drow are not prepared for. I suggest shadow magic and transdimensional spell feat. From the ethereal plane use a transdimensional wish to rip a hole in the prime material weave so that their weave arcane spells fortifying the cavern ceiling no longer function. Then use transdimensional shadow weave spells to bring the cavern ceiling crashing down on the city. Combine this tactic with a bunch of controlled/summoned/allied incorporeal undead that multiply fast, like spectres. Immune to the crashing ceiling, the spectres would grow exponentially in numbers and the drow clerics would be too busy to try to rebuke them. The party will have to fight off whatever ethereal defenders the city can muster and there will be some survivors but the objective of destroying the city would be accomplished. Of course, the Chosen of Mystra are now your enemies as well but that is round two...
The_Shaman 04-10-07, 01:57 PM	So, what level party would be required to storm a mid-sized Drow city? Let's assume that it's a relatively large party, 8 PCs or so. And what would be the most viable way to do so? (this is a hypothetical question, btw.. at least for now :P ) If it's storming (which as I see it includes busting through the front and unleashing all hell without too much trickery, I'd suggest 25+, 30+ if you don't use assistance from epic magic. Menzoberranzan isn't the biggest drow city, but it's a safe bet that a city 1/3 of its power might have a fair number of wards, guards, other defenses, and a few NPCs almost touching epic.
MaZa 04-10-07, 02:01 PM	Of course we can assume the adventuring party is going to use everything available to it, and if your DM is worth a damn the drow will be using everything available to them. What they have available will most likely be greater than what you have available. If you don't plan on the worst it will bite you. Unless you can prevent them from using what's available to them (ie. preventing summoning with that dimensional anchoring thing), then, yes, it would be hard. ;) Hmm.. how many spellcasters capable of casting Gate a city quarter of Menzoberranzan's size would have? Eight people attacking a city of thousands just does not pass the straight-face test. Its ludicrous, even with D&D's rules. You might as well as "what party of 10 PCs could level Silverymoon?" Cities like Menzoberranzan have folks like Gromph (23rd level) and Quenthel (19th level or so, but with the most amazing magic..) and such to call upon, and though the drow are reknowned for their infighting, as Valas Hune says near the end of the WotSQ novels, they will "fight like demons" to protect their home. In the end, the Menzoberranyr rallied together to defeat their common enemies and not even the duergar, combined with Kaanyr Vholk's scourged legion could storm the city. So, unless your 8 PCs are at least Hercules-like Demi-Dieties, from a DM standpoint, it should not even be considered. As a side note, we aren't discussing about attacking a city as big as Menzoberranzan..
MaZa 04-10-07, 02:23 PM	If it's storming (which as I see it includes busting through the front and unleashing all hell without too much trickery, I'd suggest 25+, 30+ if you don't use assistance from epic magic. Menzoberranzan isn't the biggest drow city, but it's a safe bet that a city 1/3 of its power might have a fair number of wards, guards, other defenses, and a few NPCs almost touching epic. Well, I guess using trickery is allowed, too. :)
Mikayla 04-10-07, 04:12 PM	I understand that we are not talking about assaulting a city as large as Menzoberranzan - the person initially said a city about half that size or so. I just used Menzo as an example - but if you want an example of a medium sized Drow city, smaller than Menzoberranzan, take Erelhei-Cinlu. Erelhei-Cinlu has a total population of 27,000, compared with Menzoberranzan's population of 32,000. Erelhei-Cinlu still boasts at least two epic level priestesses of Lolth: Eclavdra, a 23rd level cleric, and Charinida, a 21st level cleric. There are also many near epic level PCs: Verdaeth Tormtor (Cleric 13/Fighter 6), Amalriv (Wizard 19), Fedarra Noquar (Cleric 17) etc., and those are just the ones we know about from the Dragon Magazine article. Combine these very powerful NPCs with the noble armies of the 8 houses, the Sisterhood and the Brotherhood, and the general sense of self-preservation of the city's merchant clans and unaligned population and you have a force that 8 mortal people are simply not going to be able to "storm." Even a small city, like Maerimydra before it was destroyed, is likely to have some epic and near epic characters in it (Maerimydra had Irae Tsarran after all). These cities exist in an extraordinarily hostile world, filled with beholders, illithid, aboleth, and other horrors and yet they keep on existing. So, again, if 8 people are going to simply "storm" the city with the intent of destroying it, I think they would have to be demi-gods at the least. But thats just one DM's view.
The_Shaman 04-10-07, 06:19 PM	Well, I guess using trickery is allowed, too. :) Heh, okay, then maybe 25. Generally, my idea of storming is kicking open the door and greeting everyone who comes out with a stream of hot thaumaturgy in raw and applied form and a steady stream of expletives/crude witticism/puns. You know, WWDND (What would Duke Nukem do?). Edit: if some of the defenders weren't hot drow chicks, that is.
MaZa 04-11-07, 02:31 PM	Heh, okay, then maybe 25. Generally, my idea of storming is kicking open the door and greeting everyone who comes out with a stream of hot thaumaturgy in raw and applied form and a steady stream of expletives/crude witticism/puns. You know, WWDND (What would Duke Nukem do?). Edit: if some of the defenders weren't hot drow chicks, that is. Heh, that'd be a funny sight. :D
phoenix737 08-16-07, 11:00 AM	i would say if you got an epic wizard/sorcerer with enough destructive spells you could cause massive death before they could retalliate and your all forgeting drow are chaotic more than one would take the oppertunity to rise in rank
MarkHall 08-16-07, 11:08 AM	1) Keep going. You're not high enough yet. 2) See #1
Passivearmada 08-16-07, 12:10 PM	As I see it (and I'm no expert on the Realms or even the drow, except from the Legend of Drizzt), you're not going to be able to "storm" this city. If you ever want to take these guys down, you'll have to be very patient. This master plot that we're looking for can't be done in days and not be foiled. You'll have to have allies- many allies. It will take years and years, and the plan may finally unfold after this party is long and gone. Tools such as deception, manipulation, illusion, planning, and execution will be crucial. I have no plan, but I'm just laying this out. If you want something quick, the fastest I can think of is change the party's appearance to look like drow, use that clone spell in the Complete Scoundrel on them, stuff the clones full of nuclear alchemist's fire, send them into the city, cast a delayed fireball, and run like hell. But that wouldn't work because the drow would see them as clones before they even got into the city. Or you could just go kamikaze and run in with barrels and barrels of this alchemist's fire in a box of holding or something.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-16-07, 08:02 PM	I don't believe even 8 Epic level casters could decimate a city that size alone. First off, teleport spells become unstable in the underdark, so tele attack tele won't work well. Nor wil escaping VIA teleport Second, you will run out of spells before you can decimate the city with no time to rest and regain spells. You would need fighters to help. Lots of them. Against a slave armada, thousands of drow fighters, hundreds of Drow wizards and Clerics, and probably some Epic level people of their own + The occasional Lich and Mind Mage, a party of 8 could never do it. Heck, all of the chosen of Mystra combined could not likely do it.
Stigger 08-17-07, 05:03 AM	DC 35 Spellcraft check to get the teleportation to work correctly in the Underdark should be able to be done blindfolded and one-handed by an epic mage worthy of that title...
Karsus the Mad 08-17-07, 07:04 AM	So, what level party would be required to storm a mid-sized Drow city? Let's assume that it's a relatively large party, 8 PCs or so. And what would be the most viable way to do so? (this is a hypothetical question, btw.. at least for now ) 1. Do you have access to Epic Spells? 2. If so, does your DM allow you to be "blunt" in the application thereof? 3. What's the radius of the city?
BlackHalfDragon 08-17-07, 02:26 PM	of course its possible ANYTHING is possible.. Based on your limited description as the drow I have the advantage of entrenchment (being in a defensive position), numbers, logistics, and firepower. Storming or charging into the **** hoping you and your pals are just such badasses well enjoy the suicide party, I am sure the DM will smile at the TPK. numero uno if through deception they got inside entrenchment is then negated. a sieged city sufferes in terms of logisitcs. of course you're talking 8 people so unless you have an illusionary army and demand a surrender (aint gonna happen !) or can think of some insane thing it's not very likely. Perhaps the best chance would be to infiltrate and organise a slave revolt while summoning demons undead and other nastiness.... additonaly if lolth isnt there do her clerics still get spells ?
PharaunMizzrym 08-19-07, 12:55 AM	The high priestesses/ matrons are lilkely to have made at least several alliances with various demons. Kill those demons in the Abyss and/or Demonweb Pits without drawing attention to their deaths and you may prematurely foil some of their defensive plans. First strike at their food supplies to cause chaos in the population and create more obstacles for the matrons.
Derren S. 08-19-07, 07:34 AM	I still think that exploiting the underdark location is the best way to win. That means flooding the city (see page 2). Unless you accept the "the drow surely have a defense against that, we just don't know how" argumentation of some people here the only defense against that is detecting this plot in the early stages or using wall of forces to block of the flooded tunnels. So when using wishes to block divinations, walls of force to steer the water and desintegration to destroy any barriers the drow manage to put up flooding will deal a serve blow to the city or even destroy it outright. If you have access to epic magic you can craft a very powerfull dispell and use it to cancel the drows "no digging around city wards" which will make the flooding plan much more effective. Create a huge cavern above the drow city and seal it off. Use Passwall to go inside and place several Decanter of Endless Water in there. Wait till the avern is full and go inside (with wather breathing of course) and anchor yourself using a immoveable rod at the bottom. Then use your epic dispell to cancel the drow ward and desintegrate the bottom of your cave (=Ceiling of the drow city) and watch how all that water pours down onto the drow. If you have friends let them use the confusion to block off the entries to the drow city with Walls of force.
Passivearmada 08-19-07, 10:12 AM	You know, I think that idea would work, but don't you think the drow would find out about a huge cavern above their city before the plan is put into action?
Derren S. 08-19-07, 04:34 PM	You know, I think that idea would work, but don't you think the drow would find out about a huge cavern above their city before the plan is put into action? How? When you seal the cavern off, only use teleports/passwalls to get in and out and "dig" with desintegrates to not make much noise how would they notice? And drow cities are also in huge caverns so you are not exactly digging next to a house but high above the city which makes it a lot harder to hear any sounds.
thrallmaster 08-19-07, 04:57 PM	first of all what about drow SR? I mean 10+CL thats means that a few of your spells are gonna miss their mark. Secondly you'll get swarmed and depending on whether a crit is always a hit in you rules, even the most EPIC fighter will eventually get killed. How are you supposed to bust down the gates anyway? With Tenser's Gargantuan Boot of Doom? Think about siege weaponry, can 8 people operate a catapult will fighting off an army? There are many other things but from a DMs view, you'd need a divine rank just to be able to do it.
The_Shaman 08-19-07, 08:04 PM	Well, physical gates should not be a big problem. An underdark city is surrounded by stone. Stone can be shaped or changed by magic. Unless there are several rows of wards EVERYWHERE you can just make your own entrance - and epic characters can probably do it even if there are wards.
Meldread 08-19-07, 09:20 PM	Let me try and be helpful, rather than tell you that you can't do it or how you should do it, I'm going to give some suggestions on how to handle things rules wise. The first thing I would do is draw up a general idea of the inhabitance of the city. I would include slaves in that number. This would be the easy part, and is something you can do rather quickly. It would look something like this: Drow City Name Population: 125,000 (25,000 Drow, 16,000 Duergar Slaves, 30,000 Goblin Slaves, 28,000 Orc Slaves, 26,000 Other Slaves) Authority Figures: Here I would list the leaders of various noble houses and their levels and classes. Important Characters: Here I would list other important NPC's within the city. Detailed Information: With the above information I'd extrapolate to give more detail on the city. I'd describe what type of magical defenses they have, the allies the city has, its general radius of control, and any other important details. I'd also further develop the above NPC's mentioned by name stating them out completely and giving them more character detail, names, motivations, etc. Next I would create a map of the city. Even if it is crudely drawn I'd want to look for combat choke points, places drow would most likely defend if the city is attacked... etc. In essence I'd look at the city as one giant battlefield. I would want to detail where most of the slaves are... this is important. Not all slaves are going to be within the city. Some are going to be outside the city depending on the area, working on fungi farms or in mines, etc. For the purposes above I have considered that each Drow requires five slaves to support their current standard of living. However, that largely depends on the wealth of the city. Also not all "slaves" would be your stereotypical slaves at the mercy of a drow whip. Many would be scattered along trade routes that link the city with other trade routes of the Underdark with varying degrees of independence. Most of these would likely be native to the Underdark - such as Orcs, Goblins and Duergar. The city would also likely have satellite settlements (basically small villages) that pass along trade routes. After you determine all of the above you can then determine how many are most likely actually to be in *IN* the city at a given point in time. From there you can determine how many forces they can actually call upon from satellite settlements and what not... and don't forget extraplanar assistance. Now that the above is out of the way you have two routes you can travel: You can check out Heroes of Battle or you can set-up Swarm NPC's. This largely depends upon taste, time and dedication. If you want a more gritty and realistic battle go with Heroes of Battle, if you want something more epic and cinematic go with Swarm NPC's. Personally, I would go with Swarm NPC's simply to save time. Basically Swarm NPC's are a bunch of (low level) NPC's all cobbled together to create one uber NPC that acts as a single individual. I would create special modified swarm rules to use for this purpose, giving spells, powers and other abilities to a swarm depending on its make up. The general idea is to look at your city map, determine the places that are most likely defended by the drow, their allies, and their slaves, and drop an appropriately sized and powered swarm in the area. I'd make a clear distinction between Drow Swarms and Slave Swarms, and create a mix of the two. I'd have small swarms (ranging from 20 or so powerful NPC's think of them as "defender" swarms - this would be the city militia) and larger swarms (ranging in size 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 400, 500 in size - this would represent the bulk of what the PC's would be facing). The larger the swarm the weaker the make up of the creatures within it. So for example, a swarm of 500 might be made up of nothing but a bunch of goblins that a group of low level adventurers might be facing. A swarm of 100 might contain 25 Drow Commoners, 30 Goblins and 45 Orcs. When I know the make up of a swarm I'd determine what innate powers it would have - such as a swarm with Drow would have Spell Resistance and the like. Some things to take into consideration: Swarm Size, Movement and Moral. The size of the swarm is important. You simply cannot realistically expect 100 or more individuals to all be standing on top of one another without being trampled. Approximate good placement and don't be afraid to break them down into smaller swarms (which is why I suggested different sizes and race mixes). Multiple smaller and weaker swarms should be just as deadly as one uber swarm. Swarm movement will also be a problem. This is perhaps the PC's greatest advantage - greater maneuverability. Try and move them realistically, and if PC's begin to retreat to a more confined area (such as a small tunnel) have a plan to break down a swarms size into a more realistic chunk. I would also take into consideration the moral of the swarms. A swarm made up of goblin slaves is not likely to stay and fight until the last. Once the PC's start killing 3, 4, 5 or more goblins at a time, and once the swarm has lost a percentage of its number and all the PC's are steady slaughtering them... realistically they are going to begin to say, "Oh, gods... we're all going to die! Run!" Off the top of my head I would say something like: Drow Swarm Moral: DC 20 Goblin Swarm Moral: DC 10 Orc Swarm Moral: DC 15 A mixed swarm should have a DC based on the mix of those numbers. As the battle wages on against the swarm and they begin to lose numbers they should make a moral check. At 80% loss of their numbers they should make their first moral check of DC 10, with an increase of 5 each 20% loss thereafter. This means that a swarm will have to make a total of five moral checks. Rolling a 1 is an automatic failure - the swarm becomes panicked and begins to flee in every direction away from the PC's. Rolling a 20 is a critical success and the swarm rallies, and the next moral check they have to make will decrease by 5 DC. The above moral rules are not really all that balanced, as I just made them up here on the fly. I am not sure how they would hold up in actual testing. It is important to consider that all of the PC's involved are at least Epic, if not 30+ in level. For this reason I'd allow single target spells to work against a swarm just as they would a single target creature, and giving them a more cinematic flare - "Your magic missile rips through a throng of goblin slaves, slaying five of them instantly and wounding many others." When creating the swarms try to be as "realistic" as possible, but don't overpower or underpowered them. You want them to be a challenge for the group, but something that is balanced for their power level. In this regard, think of it as creating an individual NPC such as a demon, dragon or devil. In the run up to the actual assault you are going to want to make sure the PC's have the resources to actually pull it off. I would also suggest taking time with the PC's to run through a few OOC playing sessions against a few goblin and orc swarms. This gives them a chance to familiarize themselves with the rules and ask questions and think up potential strategies they can employ against a swarm. (Allowing them to do this as a DM is a good thing, because they may find holes in your system and it will allow you to fix it before they actually arrive on the battlefield.) Finally, you need to decide if the PC's are going to have assistance or not. If they are 30+ in level they probably won't need it if they have enough resources (gear, magical items, and the like). If they are bringing an army then simply create swarms for the PC's side as well. Give each swarm a "leader" (a commander or something) and for combat purposes give the swarm over to one of the PC's to control. When the PC's want to interact with the swarm have them speak to the commander who you'd play as the DM as a normal NPC. (You should also stat him out.) Look at the map of the city and determine the methods in which the battle could take place. Make notes for you to take into consideration and a check list of events that should unfold as the attack happens. If the attack begins in the South West District how long will it take for news of the attack to reach the North East District? How long will it take for the city to mobilize a real counter effort to try and battle the PC's? What will the noble houses reaction be? Your "boss" encounters should involve the main authority figures and important characters listed within the city. Role-playing should be exchanged between them that could reveal details on what is happening elsewhere. For example, a low ranking noble house may send a messenger to the PC's offering an alliance if they attack another noble house. As they edge closer to success - and begin killing off important figures in the city - the highest ranked Matron Mother may send word to the PC's trying to cut a deal. Things of this nature should take place giving PC's the opportunity to effect the outcome of the battle outside of actual combat. Keep track of the number of NPC's who have fled from the PC's and the locations that most of them flee to... this allows you to make impromptu swarms and you can know exactly how many remain in the city, how many fled, and how many NPC's can be marshaled to try and retake the city. I apologize for the length and the lack of coherence in the post. I typed it out as I thought of it, but hopefully you have found some good ideas to take away from it. I believe this is the best way to handle your situation.
The WarOverlord 08-19-07, 09:29 PM	I was thinking something like quarter to half of the size of Menzoberrazan. And it's not just a surgical strike or action against a single house but mostly wrecking the city and killing significant portion of the drow in there. Assuming that this is somekind of Military Outpost,right? Cause if you are talking City,City they there will be a lot of unarmed civilians including women and children with only enough military to defend and patrol....maybe 150 police and 300 guards. (Both Largely 0 level professions though low to mid-level Fighters may be among their ranks) with the Priestesses of Loth and their Flunky Male Mages being the only real threat in any given minor city It Should be noted that any City may have guards and wards protecting it's parameters to avoid dig ins and drop ins by such beasties like Umber Hulks, and the Entry ways into the "Underdark wild" are sealable gates in most cases so a full on Assult will just likely have the Large Doors closed on you and trying to tunnel in might spring pressurized acid traps, curses, and misdirection spells that make you wonder off. Once inside their will be fleeing unarmed Civilians with those maybe to scared to move coward into a corner or maybye looking like they are picking a Fight (Like a mother covering a hole with 2 of her kids hidden inside and she waving a Dagger that she found shouting insults in Drow even though she is a 0 level civillian ). Are you just going to start hacking Drows left and right? Even if they are unarmed? I'm sorry the Moral implications of just entering a city to pillage and plunder and it being okay because they are "Just Drow" is just rather distastful which is why there are rarely any such attacks of that type by Waterdeep, Neverwinter, or any other Miltary types. Orc do raid Human villages on the same notion that since they are not Orcs, it's okay.
Straploknight 08-19-07, 09:42 PM	Define "mid-sized". It would all depend if you us the normal "most people are commoners" rule for drow cities or buy into the drowfanatics "Every drow is at least a 10th level leetfighter". Man, you are soooooooooooooooooo wrong! Ever drow is a 30th level ultraleet fighter!
Meldread 08-19-07, 10:00 PM	Once inside their will be fleeing unarmed Civilians with those maybe to scared to move coward into a corner or maybye looking like they are picking a Fight (Like a mother covering a hole with 2 of her kids hidden inside and she waving a Dagger that she found shouting insults in Drow even though she is a 0 level civillian ). Are you just going to start hacking Drows left and right? Even if they are unarmed? I'm sorry the Moral implications of just entering a city to pillage and plunder and it being okay because they are "Just Drow" is just rather distastful which is why there are rarely any such attacks of that type by Waterdeep, Neverwinter, or any other Miltary types. WarOverlord is 100% correct. If you do this you should role-play it out appropriately. As the slaughter commences you should try and imagine what it would look like - the chaos of the throngs of civilians... if you have NPC's assisting you that are not of good alignment they should be described as doing appropriate things. You might, for example, look to your right as you hear a drow woman screaming as she's pulled off into a dark alley as some soldiers go to have their way with her. The sounds you would hear would be loud - almost like a constant roar that is only punctuated with screams and the wails of the dead and dying. As you look around the street it would be filled with the bodies of drow of all types - men, women, children and their slaves. You'd find bits of body parts all over, parts of a head that is half split open, hands, feet, half burned or incinerated bodies. There would be so much blood coating the streets they would be slick, making it difficult to walk. You might see your enemy retreating but slipping and sliding in large pools of blood. You'd see internal organs strewn about... ...and the smell would be horrific. You may need for your PC's to make a will save or become nauseous from the smell alone, if not mentally disturbed by the sight. Over all this gives you so many chances to have your PC's be put in difficult situations which could test their characters morality. Will they save that drow woman from being raped by some soldiers? How will they react if some soldiers begin to pillage the city as they make their way through it? What will they do if they find themselves fighting Drow Children? Do not expect for a single moment that the Drow would not use their own children as pawns to fight the PC's. It is things of this nature which could make it VERY interesting.
Nolwelen 08-20-07, 12:29 AM	There is a little story like that recorded for Dambrath. Humans went into mining too deep, got entangled with the drow. The latter made some incursions to the surface and the humans thought it best to bring the battle into the drow city itself and were slaughtered. The drow returned in forced and killed thousands of humans on the surface ... and with a little help of some friends - i.e. half-drow priestesses of Loviatar - made Dambrath a vassal state. Situation have changed these days, but the drow city in question was small by Faerūnian standards. Menzo is a defo no-go unless you get your people up to level 20 and into deep suicide mood. Well I guess the following term here is the cue asked for:"The war of the spider queen." In which Ched Nasad, one of the major Drow cities in the underdark, got destroyed by a couple hundred Duergar. Menzoberranzan meanwhile suffered severe casualties at the battle near the "Pillars of Woe". In this timeperiod, in which Lolth fell silent, you indeed could have taken out most Drow communities in the underdark aside of Sshamath. Apart from that, scrying can be prevented, but it could be a nice idea to let the Drow track you to a place where you define the battlefield. Me as a DM would simply have the drow ask for help from dark mum, which the latter is hardly willing to decline if things go extraordinarily against her kin. You see, matrons range from levels 10 to 17 (rarely making it 20). If you come in with genocide people wanting only to hack'n slash anything about, the lasses will perform the usual ritual, call on a yochlol (pretty tough these days - Fiendish Codex I), tell the story and ask for help. And having a horde of yochlol and myrlochar on their tails is not what the PCs will want to have, whatever level they are. ... As in: the drow will not sit there and await their fate at the hands of some would-be conquerors. Speaking of conquerors ... they have to get to the city in the first place. As in, find the way, get supplies in (if they have mercenaries), have a place to retreat to and all. And rest assured, of all races of Faerūn, the drow will be one of those with most contacts there. Banish the demons, and conjure some devils. Well, presuming you had access to some pretty high level magic and a bit of imagination, you could just use a extended superior invisibility, some crafted magical 'time-bombs', some that extend an antimagic field and some that detonate with absurd amounts of sonic energy, a spider climb spell, and some sneaking up to the ceiling of the cavern that the city resides in, planting the antimagic bombs strategically to undermine and weaken the magics helping keep the city's cave intact, then having the sonic bombs going off to bring down the rest of the cavern, hopefully after you've left the area. Mind you that's ignoring the larger problem of actually getting trough the Underdark and into the city and past the patrols without being noticed and engaged... trying to do it after you've alerted them to your presence would probably be akin to suicide unless you have an incredibly high level rogue doing the demolitions. Though perhaps you could purposefully engage the city in what looks like an abortive raid to distract them from your actual plan. Misdirection is a fine old military tactic. Dunno, could work if you had a bit of luck. Stealth, is always nice, he could just create some distraction by causing a slave revolt. If you have epic spells available what makes you think for even one second your opponent won't have it available also, and likely in greater numbers. Additionally when it comes to large battles, magic is expected, and will often be countered. If your opponent does not have any epic magic and you do, in this situation, once again thank your DM for handing you an easy victory. Sounds like you were thinking every accomplishment of the players is a gift from the DM. Why shouldn't they manage to rise above their opponents? Isnt that what this theoretical discussion is all about?
Narsil 08-20-07, 09:09 AM	Okay, eight party members? Right, then... Azuth, Mystra, Sune, Savras, Velsharoon, Oghma, Corellon and Eilistraee. In other words; high enough to be able to tell someone else to do it for you.
Passivearmada 08-20-07, 10:18 AM	Well, it seems Meldread has this all thought out. When he said something about thinking about the Drow's allies, I began thinking, 'What about the Drow's enemies?' I think that if Menzeberranzan were under attack by a goodly army, then Blingdenstone (if it were still around) would have charged in beside the humans. Any other hostile race could also see this as an opportunity to take control. Daughters would kill mothers to gain control of the house, as Briza Do'Urden did to Malice. Havoc would be spread, because the drow are like a bomb- set it off and it's going to get more than an explosion; you're going to get more of a chain reaction of explosions. Even if you end up retreating, the tensions will run higher, and you can heal up, gather more forces and try another go.