Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cadrio 07-14-07, 02:43 PM	I need to know where all of Mystra's chosen are located and currenlty what their up too. Correct me if i am wrong but is Khelben dead now...
Lord Karsus 07-14-07, 06:20 PM	I need to know where all of Mystra's chosen are located and currenlty what their up too. -They all travel, some of them quite often. Correct me if i am wrong but is Khelben dead now... -Correct.
Ioulaum 07-14-07, 06:21 PM	I need to know where all of Mystra's chosen are located and currenlty what their up too. Correct me if i am wrong but is Khelben dead now... For now anyway.
Zacharov 07-14-07, 06:29 PM	For now anyway. but not entirely dead... kind of... in a way... it's kind of complicated ah the spoilers... *sighs*
Lord Karsus 07-14-07, 06:40 PM	but not entirely dead... kind of... in a way... it's kind of complicated -No, Khelben (the person) is quite dead. His memory will live on, though. For now anyway. -For good, if they has some sense.
Faraer 07-14-07, 06:43 PM	We know where almost of them are based; most of them roam all over Faerūn and other worlds and planes. They're up to untold dozens of long-term intrigues at any one time. Far too much to keep track of, even if the authors wanted to. See "Realmslore: Storm Silverhand's Quieter Days" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rl/20040609a) to get an idea.
Zacharov 07-14-07, 06:43 PM	-For good, if they has some sense. I understood that his consciousness was somehow moved to his apprentice..? doesn't that make him kind of alive, his body is dead - yes, but his mind? Or am I most utterly wrong? :P
Zandilar 07-14-07, 07:27 PM	Heya, I understood that his consciousness was somehow moved to his apprentice..? doesn't that make him kind of alive, his body is dead - yes, but his mind? Or am I most utterly wrong? :P You're utterly wrong. Khelben's spirit/soul has moved on to Arvandor, while an impression of his thoughts/memories etc exists in the head of Tsarra. Khelben is not coming back, no matter how much people may wish it.
Lord Karsus 07-14-07, 09:37 PM	I understood that his consciousness was somehow moved to his apprentice..? doesn't that make him kind of alive, his body is dead - yes, but his mind? -No, his memories were "transfered" to his apprentice, Tsarra, the Blackstaff.
Cadrio 07-15-07, 01:43 AM	Well the campaign i am running now calls for me to know the werebouts of mystras chosen.....i was wondering their last place of residence. Example: Khelben had blackstaff tower...
Zandilar 07-15-07, 03:50 AM	Heya, Well the campaign i am running now calls for me to know the werebouts of mystras chosen.....i was wondering their last place of residence. Example: Khelben had blackstaff tower... From what I know... Alustriel - her palace in Silverymoon. Qilue - the Promanade Temple under Waterdeep Khelben (before his demise) - Blackstaff Tower Khelben (after his demise) - his soul resides in Arvandor. Laeral (before Khelben's demise) - Blackstaff Tower Laeral (after Khelben's demise) - The City of Hope (on the High Moor) Storm Silverhand - her farm in Shadowdale Elminster - his tower in Shadowdale Sylune - Storm's farm in Shadowdale (or where ever there are pieces of flagstone from her old home, such as various places in Tethyr and Cormyr, or travelling on the person of a Harper) The Simbul - her palace in Velprintalar, Aglarond Dove - I have not the slightest clue. Any other Chosen I've not mentioned - I have not the slightest clue. Note: None of the Chosen are guaranteed to be in the locations I've specified. They can drop everything and vanish off some place at a moment's notice. Note 2: This does not take into account the new super module series that begins with Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave.
captaincarot 07-15-07, 04:19 AM	Heya, Khelben is not coming back, no matter how much people may wish it. well not till some one goes to the spirit soaring has a quick word with cadderley, convinces him to cast true reresurection and then we have him back. never say never in this game.
Zacharov 07-15-07, 04:36 AM	Heya, You're utterly wrong. Khelben's spirit/soul has moved on to Arvandor, while an impression of his thoughts/memories etc exists in the head of Tsarra. Khelben is not coming back, no matter how much people may wish it. Oh ok :) yeah quite simply utterly wrong :D I apologize for being feebleminded and mentally deficient :D but now I know the facts ;)
Zevox 07-15-07, 07:48 AM	well not till some one goes to the spirit soaring has a quick word with cadderley, convinces him to cast true reresurection and then we have him back. never say never in this game. Khelben can always choose not to come back, no matter what resurrection spells are cast. And considering he completed the task his entire life was devoted to completing and is now spending his time in a paradise-like realm, it seems pretty darn likely he would. Zevox
boards 07-15-07, 08:52 AM	I believe Dove lives in Shadowdale as well. Well when she is not running around with the knights of Myth Drannor anyway.
Alleran 07-15-07, 10:18 AM	Dove has also spent time in Evermeet, IIRC. She and her husband Florin are among the few non-Elves permitted free travel or something along those lines. Note 2: This does not take into account the new super module series that begins with Cormyr: The Tearing of the Weave. How recent is that?
Zandilar 07-15-07, 08:09 PM	Heya, well not till some one goes to the spirit soaring has a quick word with cadderley, convinces him to cast true reresurection and then we have him back. never say never in this game. When was the last time you saw anyone casting a resurrection spell in the Forgotten Realms that wasn't a PC? :(
Zandilar 07-15-07, 08:10 PM	Heya, Oh ok :) yeah quite simply utterly wrong :D I apologize for being feebleminded and mentally deficient :D but now I know the facts ;) Nah, it's okay. :P We all have those moments. :eek: :D (By the way, I wasn't trying to be insulting/mean in my post - maybe I should have used a smiley...) @Alleran: Cormyr: the Tearing of the Weave has a first printing date of March 07.
Red_Wizard 07-15-07, 09:26 PM	Heya, When was the last time you saw anyone casting a resurrection spell in the Forgotten Realms that wasn't a PC? :( The Lady Penitent. When there is need of Ressurection, it is done. But most are content to let their dead rest in peace. The good go to happiness, and the evil are not missed ;) :)
captaincarot 07-16-07, 02:22 AM	Heya, When was the last time you saw anyone casting a resurrection spell in the Forgotten Realms that wasn't a PC? :( personally cadderley bonaduce, in the cleric quintet.
Zandilar 07-16-07, 06:51 PM	Heya, The Lady Penitent. When there is need of Ressurection, it is done. But most are content to let their dead rest in peace. The good go to happiness, and the evil are not missed ;) :) Also @captiancarot re: the Cleric Quintet. Well it's funny you should mention them. I haven't read either novel/series. As a general rule, authors seem to avoid clerical/divine magic like the plague - that doesn't mean they never use it, just very rarely. For example, in Swords of Eveningstar, the two clerics in that novel haven't cast a single spell yet (healing or otherwise), and they'd be at least 1st level. The entire adventuring company has relied on potions thus far. (I might also mention The Priests series, of which I bought just one. I think our hero used magic at certain points, but I don't think either a "could have raised someone but didn't" moment or a "could have raised someone and did" moment happened in the novel (Lady of Poison).) As for Sacrifice of the Widow, I haven't yet seen it on the shelf at my local bookstore, nor was it at the not-so-local comic/gaming store I buy my comics from last time I was there. I haven't had a chance to get into the not-so-local gaming store that I do buy my gaming materials from yet. I needed to order Swords of Eveningstar specifically to get it in hardcover, and I'll probably have to do it again to get the sequel. That's the problem of being in Australia - time delays and exorbitant prices.
Alac Luin 07-16-07, 09:39 PM	When was the last time you saw anyone casting a resurrection spell in the Forgotten Realms that wasn't a PC? :( To add to the list, the Last Mythal, but I can't remember his name (I have a mental block with elf names for some reason :confused: ).
Red_Wizard 07-16-07, 10:24 PM	To add to the list, the Last Mythal, but I can't remember his name (I have a mental block with elf names for some reason :confused: ). Fflar Starbrow, hero of Myth Drannor, slain in the battle and Brought back by Seiveril Miritar to fight the Demonfey. And I believe there was even a casting of a Miracle involved in that Ressurection ;)
Faraer 07-16-07, 11:01 PM	A few more that come to mind are Shaerl Rowanmantle before Mourngrym married her, Perendra Raslemtar, and lately Duke Eltan of the Flaming Fist. Several other characters are known to have been resurrected in the past, and I suspect the reason there aren't more instances in the lore is that it is a somewhat common event for adventurers. But not a routine one, any more than it should be in game campaigns.As a general rule, authors seem to avoid clerical/divine magic like the plague - that doesn't mean they never use it, just very rarely. For example, in Swords of Eveningstar, the two clerics in that novel haven't cast a single spell yet (healing or otherwise), and they'd be at least 1st level.I bet you the priests in Ed's novels cast pretty much the same quantity of spells as in his campaigns.
Old Sage 07-16-07, 11:53 PM	Ed has always stated that just because a character prays for 'resurrection' or any other specific spell, doesn't necessarily mean they get it granted to them. Especially if they're not 100% in the correct worshipping groove. I think that in the general Realms, resurrection and restoration of life should be rare at best.
Zacharov 07-17-07, 12:32 AM	Heya, (By the way, I wasn't trying to be insulting/mean in my post - maybe I should have used a smiley...) *sobs* I was kind of hurt, you know... :bigeyes: ;)
Zandilar 07-17-07, 07:09 AM	Heya, Ed has always stated that just because a character prays for 'resurrection' or any other specific spell, doesn't necessarily mean they get it granted to them. Especially if they're not 100% in the correct worshipping groove. True enough... But you'd expect to at least see them try, wouldn't you? And then there's the issue of... How do you tell your Cleric PC that their god has decided they don't get their Flamestrike, or Bull's Strength, or Raise Dead? While letting your Wizard/Sorcerer PC cast his Fireball, Fox's Cunning, or Cone of Cold as usual and with no possibility of such restrictions? I think that in the general Realms, resurrection and restoration of life should be rare at best. Hmm... It's awkward, since the Forgotten Realms is a setting for a game. If it were just a novel and short story setting, shared world or not, then that's fine. That kind of thing works... But since there's already precedent set that these spells do exist and are fairly common (especially amongst adventuring types), any novel or short story set in the Realms around or about powerful people should at least acknowledge that, if not accurately reflect it. Fflar Starbrow, hero of Myth Drannor, slain in the battle and Brought back by Seiveril Miritar to fight the Demonfey. And I believe there was even a casting of a Miracle involved in that Ressurection ;) It was Miracle... In fact, it sounded almost like a variant on the Gate spell.
ericlboyd 07-17-07, 10:32 AM	Well the campaign i am running now calls for me to know the werebouts of mystras chosen.....i was wondering their last place of residence. Example: Khelben had blackstaff tower... Four of the nine "major" Chosen of Mystra live in Shadowdale (Dove, Storm, Elminster, and Sylune). Recent events have upset the status quo. Feel free to ask in a thread labeled "Shadowdale: Scouring of the Dale (SPOILERS)". --Eric
Old Sage 07-17-07, 10:34 AM	And then there's the issue of... How do you tell your Cleric PC that their god has decided they don't get their Flamestrike, or Bull's Strength, or Raise Dead? While letting your Wizard/Sorcerer PC cast his Fireball, Fox's Cunning, or Cone of Cold as usual and with no possibility of such restrictions?For me, it's not as simple as telling the DM - "I pray for resurrection today and cast it on poor old Regar and bring him back to life. There you go, Bob. You can keep playing your 13th level fighter." Resurrection is only a common spell in the PHB, not in any campaign world I've ever read through, especially the Realms. I don't think it should something handed out willy nilly or to just anyone - no matter how much gold you have to pay for it. My belief is that resurrection and raise dead should always be available for PCs, but only after much time, travel and expense. And even then, sometimes the DM should effectively rule that it isn't going to happen, notwithstanding the efforts of the players. I know that may sound harsh and/or manipulative, but that's life. I suppose when we really get down to the nitty-gritty, for PCs we could stretch the use of 'Resurrection' from "rare" to "uncommon," but it's something they'd really have to work for!
Faraer 07-17-07, 01:30 PM	How do you tell your Cleric PC that their god has decided they don't get their Flamestrike, or Bull's Strength, or Raise Dead?You make sure they understand that it's part of the basic premise of playing a priest, before they choose to play one.It's awkward, since the Forgotten Realms is a setting for a game.RPGs and prose fiction are just two storytelling mediums. I don't see how 'game' mandates common resurrection. The only thing that indicates it is the rules, which are there to facilitate settings and stories, not determine them.. . . any novel or short story set in the Realms around or about powerful people should at least acknowledge that, if not accurately reflect it.While there is Realms fiction that doesn't acknowledge the full magical tapestry, in the good stuff the setting/game/novel disparity is much smaller than is often suggested.
Zandilar 07-17-07, 08:25 PM	Heya, For me, it's not as simple as telling the DM - "I pray for resurrection today and cast it on poor old Regar and bring him back to life. There you go, Bob. You can keep playing your 13th level fighter." Resurrection is only a common spell in the PHB, not in any campaign world I've ever read through, especially the Realms. I don't think it should something handed out willy nilly or to just anyone - no matter how much gold you have to pay for it. My belief is that resurrection and raise dead should always be available for PCs, but only after much time, travel and expense. And even then, sometimes the DM should effectively rule that it isn't going to happen, notwithstanding the efforts of the players. I know that may sound harsh and/or manipulative, but that's life. The restrictions are built into the spells, they are not without their cost (financially and stat-wise - see below), and any DM worth her salt wouldn't let a PC or anyone else cast them "willy nilly". These are game altering spells, much like Wish or Miracle - they will have an impact, and they aren't cast lightly. Financially - 5000gp worth of Diamonds. Not 5000gp worth of gold, not 5000gp worth of mixed gems and art objects... 5000gp worth of DIAMONDS. Just for Raise Dead. No PC is going to have that many diamonds on them, and it's a good bet that they may not be able to buy that many diamonds locally (YMMV - in Waterdeep it's more likely than in Leilon, but as a general rule, they won't be easy to come by). This is worse for the higher level spells. Stat-wise - all but True Resurrection impose hefty penalties on the PC being raised. The loss of one level, and if level 1 the loss of 2 points of Con. Some players, when confronted with this, would rather reroll. I know I would. (I'd actually prefer my PC not to die at all!) While a DM should never ever ever trivialize these spells, there is no reason to impose more penalties on them than they already have. If the PCs are casting these spells or having them cast every game session (or even every few game sessions), there's something wrong with the campaign. The spells are fine. As for my objections to their lack of portrayal in fiction - just a quick acknowledgement of their existance, along with a short explanation of why they don't use them/why it wouldn't work in this case, would be absolutely fine by me. They don't actually have to include the spells working, just include the spells. If you see what I'm getting at?
Zandilar 07-17-07, 08:41 PM	Heya, You make sure they understand that it's part of the basic premise of playing a priest, before they choose to play one. 1) It makes more work for the DM. The DM would need to peruse the PC Cleric's spell list at the start of each game day, and concider what spells the god would allow, and which ones that they would disallow. It would boil down to the DM choosing the spells for the PC - and lets not mention the little issue of healing spell substitution. What if the god doesn't want it to work in this case? What if the god wants extra healing to occur in that case? It is far far simpler for a DM just to let the cleric's player select the spells for their own character, and not inhibit/impose their own will in such a picky and pedantic fashion, that is obviously designed to mess the players up. 2) Faced with a DM who said "you can choose your spells, but I reserve the right to say you don't get some of your more powerful ones", many players would simply choose not to play a cleric. RPGs and prose fiction are just two storytelling mediums. I don't see how 'game' mandates common resurrection. Resurrection isn't common. It should never be common. If it is, there's something wrong - and it's not with the spells! However, in a situation in a novel where in a game it would be logical for a PC to seek resurrection - there should be at least some mention of the spell, and also a short explanation of why not. That's all. As I said in my prior post (the one up there *points up*), "They don't actually have to include the spells working, just include the spells."
Faraer 07-17-07, 08:55 PM	It is far far simpler for a DM just to let the cleric's player select the spells for their own character, and not inhibit/impose their own will in such a picky and pedantic fashion, that is obviously designed to mess the players up.No one's advocating the latter. Once in a while granting a different spell (or a teaching vision) on the rare occasions it strikes you -- not necessarily to the character's detriment! -- is easy, and reminds the player that clerical magic is entreaty to a greater Power, not automatic spells. I'd be flattered, my character awed, to get such attention from my god; a player who doesn't like it would be better off playing a wizard.
Zandilar 07-18-07, 05:05 AM	Heya, No one's advocating the latter. Once in a while granting a different spell (or a teaching vision) on the rare occasions it strikes you -- not necessarily to the character's detriment! -- is easy, and reminds the player that clerical magic is entreaty to a greater Power, not automatic spells. I'd be flattered, my character awed, to get such attention from my god; a player who doesn't like it would be better off playing a wizard. I wouldn't mind a DM going "you're all out of <insert clerical spell that will save the PCs butt in a tight spot>? Well suddenly, you feel overwhelmed by divine inspiration, and are able to cast <insert clerical spell that will save the PCs butt in a tight spot> in place of <insert spell that happens to be useless in said tight spot>!" But I would hate a DM going "You pray for Resurrection to raise your (NPC) sister? Sorry, not happening. You get <insert same level spell> instead" or "You pray for Resurrection to raise your friend, PC Fighter? Sorry, not happening..." - which would suck not just for the cleric's player, but the fighter's as well. Mind you, I would not mind the DM going "You cast Resurrection, power flowing through you... But you call goes unanswered, and you get the sense that your (NPC) sister is happy where she is, and does not wish to return." The DM, obviously, could not pull that trick with a PC, since the player should made that decision. I would, however, be leery of a PC cleric memorizing Raise/Resurrect for no reason at all. It should not be a part of the cleric's daily repitoire... I wouldn't stop them asking for it, and I probably would grant it once, but with the sense of stern disapproval. If the cleric continued to ask for the spell regularly, I'd give them stronger warnings, until the god lost patience entirely and just refused to grant any spell at all (some gods have less patience than others) - drop enough hints and they'll get it, eventually.
Faraer 07-18-07, 12:07 PM	We seem to broadly agree, then. One doesn't give up comedy because not all jokes are funny.
KnightErrantJR 07-19-07, 12:20 AM	As far as the raise dead counter goes, Cale uses it in the Erevis Cale books as well, in a scene that one of my favorites regarding the entire subject.
Lord Karsus 07-19-07, 01:03 AM	As far as the raise dead counter goes, Cale uses it in the Erevis Cale books as well, in a scene that one of my favorites regarding the entire subject. -Agreed. Those few pages were among the best in all of the Forgotten Realms novels.
Stigger 07-19-07, 08:06 AM	Personally, I see absolutely no problem with chain casting Raise Dead spells until the cows come home... not much is better for demonstrating the power of <insert deity of choice here> than doing something like that... don't like it, don't do it, but its sitting there in the list of spells, so I see no inherent problem with using it however one wishes to in their campaign. Want to get rid of it, great, that works too. Though as far as the Realms is concerned, I seem to recall a rather large deal being made of being able to do so in the old 2e Shadowdale thingy that came with the Revised boxed set... think it was two of the high priests in town who could actually cast a Raise Dead spell. Says to me that it isn't that uncommon of a thing in the Realms if you have two different clerics who can/could cast it in a place like Shadowdale. As to how its handled in novels... well, I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, it seems kinda sloppy to ignore something like Raises and Resurrections... on the other hand, it does kinda kill some of the dramatic tension and take away some of the impact of death in a storyline... think I prefer that suggestion Zandilar made up there about the reasoning about it not being a viable option being made known in the course of a story.
Nevercme 07-19-07, 05:27 PM	Why are you guys discussing raise dead spells in a forum labeled "Where are Mystra's chosen at?" :confused: Since you are playing in Forgotten Realms why not check the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book? It could take a little bit though.
Lord Karsus 07-19-07, 06:05 PM	Why are you guys discussing raise dead spells in a forum labeled "Where are Mystra's chosen at?" :confused: -Because we are too cool for the rules... :rolleyes: -Because discussions have these habits of, you know, taking unexpected turns, and leading to unexpected debate. Since you are playing in Forgotten Realms why not check the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book? It could take a little bit though. -The FRCS doesn't even list all of Mystra's Chosen.
Stigger 07-20-07, 08:39 AM	Too true there LK... on all accounts. :D
ShadezofDis 07-20-07, 10:13 AM	My 2 cp on clerics and their spells, a DM's perspective. :) I absolutely pay attention to my cleric PC's spells, actions, conversation, etc. These people have the faith in, and the faith of, their god/goddess/whatever the hell Ghaunadaur is. If the PC's actions (or whatever) go counter to the dogma of said god/goddess/ect then, depending on the severity of their infraction, I'll step in and, again, depending upon the situation, take whatever actions I feel are necessary, be it a revocation of a spell they are trying to cast to a visual sign of the deities disaproval to nothing at all at the moment. I'll then have a conversation with the PC in question about their views on the tenants of their gods dogma. If it is very different from mine then we'll discuss the differences and why we each view things the way we do. However, since I'm running the game my word is law, I don't spending countless hours designing the games for nothing. :) However, even if the player views their deity in a completely different way than I do that doesn't mean the player is screwed in the least, there's heresies these days (quite possibly my favorite development in FR in . . . a decade? certainly in a long time) so if we differ extremely then I'll limit their spell selection until they can take the Heretic of the Faith feat, or whatever it's called, or retroactively rewrite the character to include that feat. While this may seem draconic (and it is :)), I make it clear from character creation that a cleric is ABSOLUTELY tied to their deity. Their faith enables them to be a conduit for their deities power, that's not something to view lightly. As for resurrection, again it's situational. I certainly impose some severely limiting factors (No, you're a cleric of Eldath, Eldath doesn't particularly want that follower of Tempus back up and running). Further, I make it VERY rare for resurrection (of any type) magic to be available, I just don't see the gods allowing this very often and if it could be had for a price then I can't really see many noble houses (or merchant houses) taking advantage of that (though there would certainly be others trying to make sure they can't take advantage of it). The other side of it is that my players know that, except in the most extreme cases, if they kill a baddie they've killed that baddie, he/she is not going to pop up in a few adventures to attack them again. (which isn't to say that everytime they've "killed" the baddie that they actually succeeded, they just thought they did, I've only had to explain the actions behind the scenes once because my players got mad about the return of the particular villian, I told them at that time what happened and made it clear that I wouldn't ever do that again. :)) So, too sum up, I'm clear and up front about what I expect from characters (be they divine casters, fighters, rogues, ect) and then I expect them to play the characters they've created, not to play a bunch of stats on a sheet of paper. If they don't follow the character they've created then we discuss what I feel they are doing wrong and then proceed from there, however, due to my clarity in the beginning this has only come up once or twice.
Lord Karsus 07-20-07, 02:38 PM	...whatever the hell Ghaunadaur is... -It's an 'it'.
ShadezofDis 07-20-07, 02:54 PM	-It's an 'it'. Oh I know, it's just fun to say. :) Since we're typing in english that would default to "god" but I like "whatever the hell it is" better. ;)
Zandilar 07-20-07, 08:26 PM	Heya, As for resurrection, again it's situational. I certainly impose some severely limiting factors (No, you're a cleric of Eldath, Eldath doesn't particularly want that follower of Tempus back up and running). Further, I make it VERY rare for resurrection (of any type) magic to be available, I just don't see the gods allowing this very often and if it could be had for a price then I can't really see many noble houses (or merchant houses) taking advantage of that (though there would certainly be others trying to make sure they can't take advantage of it). I feel like tearing my hair out. I've been trying to say that the limits on the Raise Dead/Resurrection line of spells make them rare anyway. If your PCs are running around carrying 5000+gp worth of diamonds (not gold, not mixed gems, not some art objects, but diamonds), there's something wrong. If they're Raising/Resurrecting every day of the week, there's something wrong. And in both cases, it's not something wrong with the spells, it's something wrong with the campaign, and the DM has more important things to worry about than how often their PCs are casting these spells. Further, there's no reason Eldath would refuse to let her cleric attempt to raise a follower of Tempus. Why? Because... Well, Eldath's alignment is listed in the book as Neutral GOOD. Refusing to raise someone, simply on the basis of who they worshiped (especially if they're at least Neutral or Good (Tempus is CN), and weren't a foe*) is not a Good act, IMHO. What is more likely is that the Tempusite would refuse to come back - he or she died a good death in combat, bravely facing their end with a battle in their heart. (Unless they had died for other reasons, in which case they may well come back.) Eldath and Tempus, by the way, aren't exactly foes. "While Eldath opposes all that Tempus stands for, she does not consider him a personal foe. He in turn considers her naive, but respects her convictions and generally ignores her." - Quoted from Eldath's entry in F&P "He considers Eldath, his diametric opposite, to be naive and weak. However, out of respect for her convictions, he punishes those of his faithful who abuse her clergy, shrines, or temples, feeling that war has little meaning without peace to define and highlight it." - Quoted from Tempus's entry in F&P Note that alignment-wise, they aren't actually diametrically opposed. So, too sum up, I'm clear and up front about what I expect from characters (be they divine casters, fighters, rogues, ect) and then I expect them to play the characters they've created, not to play a bunch of stats on a sheet of paper. If they don't follow the character they've created then we discuss what I feel they are doing wrong and then proceed from there, however, due to my clarity in the beginning this has only come up once or twice. I don't sit down and tell my players "now play your PCs now". I don't need to remind them. It is a Role Playing Game, and anyone coming into it thinking it's just WoW on paper is going to get a big surprise when the game starts. PC actions have consequences. I let the consequences stand on their own. They don't need me to say "give me your spell list, cleric, and let me verify you're following your deity correctly" and then proceed to scribble spells off that list. If the cleric isn't following their deity in an appropriate fashion, they'll start getting warnings because their god will get ticked off, and will eventually (how long depends on the god and their temperament) refuse to grant spells to the cleric until they repent/atone (or even turn to another deity). But they shouldn't have to have me hovering over their shoulder trying to stop that consequence from happening by continually asking "are you sure you want to do that?" But, I respect my players' ability to Role Play their characters without any guidance from me. I don't know about other DMs, but I take a light handed approach. I haven't been disappointed yet. (Having said all that, it's your game. There is no single right way to run it, you might find my way of doing things too haphazard... and that's fine. I just get frustrated when people say things that are patently untrue - such as "Raise/Resurrect are too common" - and then nerf something that doesn't need nerfing.) * Who in their right mind would be raising a foe, I don't know. But I suppose it could happen. Even so, people have a tendency to refuse to come back when an enemy attempts to raise them.
Nevercme 07-21-07, 04:37 PM	-Because we are too cool for the rules... :rolleyes: -Because discussions have these habits of, you know, taking unexpected turns, and leading to unexpected debate. -The FRCS doesn't even list all of Mystra's Chosen. Yes, but it lists some of them (maybe all it is a big list). -Elminster -Storm Silverhand -The Simbul -Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunson -Alustriel -Sylune (a Ghost) -Dove Falconhand -Laeral Silverhand -Qilue Veladorn (a Drow) Oh and in my Campaing Setting book it says "While he is opposite of Peaceful Eldath, he punishs his faithful who abuse her followers or sites, perhaps because he thinks that war has little meaning without peace to contrast it." I don't own a copy of Faiths & Patheons (Spelling?) but this makes me think he is indifferent or friendly to her. Almost sounds like the God Of War likes peace. :noway:
Lord Karsus 07-22-07, 12:17 AM	Yes, but it lists some of them (maybe all it is a big list). -Elminster -Storm Silverhand -The Simbul -Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunson -Alustriel -Sylune (a Ghost) -Dove Falconhand -Laeral Silverhand -Qilue Veladorn (a Drow) -Yeah, that's really just the Seven Sisters, plus Elminster and Khelben. It doesn't include some of the lesser known Chosen of Mystra, such as The Srinshee, or former Chosen of Mystra, such as Sammaster. I'm sure someone already posted the complete list on this thread; I don't remember.
Old Sage 07-22-07, 02:04 AM	Canon Chosen of Mystra * Elminster Aumar * Khelben Arunson * Storm Silverhand * Laeral Silverhand * Alustrial Silverhand * The Simbul * Sylune Silverhand * Qilue Veladorn * Dove Falconhand * Noumea Drathchuld -- was the previous Magister (before Talatha Vaerovree on Innarlith, who now occupys the position) * Alvaerele Tasundrym -- held the position of Magister from 576 DR to 592 DR. She is referred to as "the Silent Chosen". Most do not even know that this Magister exists, but her position now is very important as she acts as guardian for those things that Mystra I wishes to remain unknown (this includes knowledge like where the Srinshee is sleeping, as wel as making certain that human, half-elven, and elven family trees are kept recorded and up-to-date) * Symrustar Auglamyr -- Steven Schend has told us Symrustar is now deceased * Sammaster -- no longer a Chosen of Mystra (stripped of his Chosen powers in 875 DR [CotD]) * The Srinshee * Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep * Nadrathen -- referred to as "the Rebel Chosen" (and is now also deceased)
Lord Karsus 07-22-07, 05:37 PM	-Sage, you need to amend the list, to reflect the fact that Khelben is dead, as of 1374 DR.
Stigger 07-22-07, 06:01 PM	Just to be annoying, if one took the epic Ignore Material Component feat, you could pretty easily chain cast Raises and the like until you ran out of spell slots...
Old Sage 07-22-07, 08:11 PM	-Sage, you need to amend the list, to reflect the fact that Khelben is dead, as of 1374 DR.Aye. It has been updated for the Candlekeep's Guide to Forgotten Realms FAQ. Apparently, I copied an older version. The update also contains several other recent "amends," but I won't spoil the details here. :P
Zandilar 07-22-07, 08:34 PM	Heya, Just to be annoying, if one took the epic Ignore Material Component feat, you could pretty easily chain cast Raises and the like until you ran out of spell slots... That's limited anyway. The cleric needs to take two feats, Eschew Components, and Ignore Material Component - the latter needs 25 ranks in Spellcraft, and the ability to cast 9th level spells... So, in short, it requires an epic cleric. Clerics don't get any bonus feats before level 20, and after level 20 they get one every three levels. They need to be rather careful in their feat selection - taking the component feats means they give up the chance for metamagic feats, or even other useful feats (like the turn undead feats that allow you do to nifty things with your turn attempts - extremely useful in games where there's few encounters with undead). It is also available to NPC clerics as well. Which can make the PC's life harder... much harder. The feats and spell is useless for the cleric, in the event of his or her demise. They can't use Raise/Resurrect on themselves (not unless they've set up a Contingency, and that's not even a cleric spell). In conclusion, this would only work in an Epic game. Epic games are well... Epic in nature. I know there are probably a lot of DMs on this forum who don't like Epic games, and simply limiting their campaign to a maximum level of 20 will solve the problem of Ignore Material Components. Which means that the Raise/Resurrect spells are still balanced by game mechanics (they are even in a Epic game, by the sparsity of cleric feats and the qualifications needed for the feat in question, but some people wouldn't see it that way).
Stigger 07-23-07, 03:13 PM	Don't often have games that don't run epic... besides, one can always multiclass with wizard/cleric/mystic theurge and get the most mileage out of the whole IMC route. :D
Zandilar 07-23-07, 07:06 PM	Heya, Don't often have games that don't run epic... besides, one can always multiclass with wizard/cleric/mystic theurge and get the most mileage out of the whole IMC route. :D The point I was trying to make by mentioning Epic campaign is that an Epic campaign is a whole other animal to a non-Epic campaign. It is no coincidence that many Epic level characters in the Realms (note, I said many not all), have some degree of immortality. Either they're Chosen, they've extended their lives through potions of longevity and other life extension magics, or they're undead. Life and death for an Epic character are just not the same as they used to be, or they shouldn't be. As for Mystic Theurge... In order to qualify for MT, you need to be a wizard 3/cleric 3 (lets leave sorcerers out of this), which means that by the time you max out MT, you'll be casting as a wizard 13/cleric 13 (7th level spells maximum)... If you spend your last four levels on Cleric, you'll be casting 9th level cleric spells at 20... You still wouldn't qualify for Ignore Material Components, since it requires 25 ranks in Spellcraft - max ranks at 20 for a class skill is 23... Minimum level for an Ignore Material Components MT - Cleric 7/Wizard 3/MT 12 (or some combination - 7/5/10 is the other I'd go for), Character level 22 (if I got my maths right there)... A nice little side effect is that the MT would have access to contingency. Death is no longer an excuse not the heal the rest of the party! ;) :P
Stigger 07-24-07, 08:48 AM	Why would you ever spend the last 4 levels on cleric I wonder... just hit the last 4 as a wizard, take the cleric practiced spellcaster feat thingy, think thats it anyway, and you don't lose much of anything spellcasting wise really, beyond a few slots for a few levels. Was still referring to epic campaigns there by the way actually... I'm well aware that you can't get it before level 22. ;) Unless you have a Player/DM who doesn't quite get the whole rank thing and thinks that your sum total modifier is the number of ranks... yes, I actually have run into a few players who thought that to be the case... :blink:
Red_Wizard 07-24-07, 08:54 AM	Why would you ever spend the last 4 levels on cleric I wonder... just hit the last 4 as a wizard, take the cleric practiced spellcaster feat thingy, If you're talking the "Practised Spellcaster" feat, then I should point out it doesn't actually give you access to higher level spells. It only makes you effectively higher level for the purposes of determining level dependent variables.
Stigger 07-24-07, 09:20 AM	Yes, I know, but my point was that by missing those last 4 levels of wizard, you're going to be hurting more with the loss of spells gained than you are by missing out on 8th and 9th level cleric spells... you can make that up later when you take the MT epic anyway, rather than giving up 8 freebie wizard spells.
Zandilar 07-24-07, 07:03 PM	Heya, Yes, I know, but my point was that by missing those last 4 levels of wizard, you're going to be hurting more with the loss of spells gained than you are by missing out on 8th and 9th level cleric spells... you can make that up later when you take the MT epic anyway, rather than giving up 8 freebie wizard spells. If you don't take the last four levels in Cleric, you miss out on True Resurrection. Given that's pretty much essentially what we were talking about (being able to Raise someone without restriction - and what better than the most gentle of spells, True Resurrection? You can bring a person back as many times as you'd like, and they don't loose levels or Con.) After level 20, you can do whatever you like with your levels... Get yourself to 7/7/10, and you have the benefit of having 9th level Cleric and Wizard spells. Make sure to take Ignore Material Components at level 22, and boom there you go. Wizard/Cleric/MT able to cast True Resurrection as part of a Contingency (which you can do without taking the extra levels in Wizard, I might add), without needing material components. Mind you, that's about when, as a DM, I start having MT's deity issue stern warnings about the frivolous use of True Resurrection - but that's another story. Oh... and one last thing, lemme throw this out there... The Wish/Miracle spells should be used just as carefully, and the gods would take a dim view on anyone who just throws them around on a whim too, Cleric or not...
Stigger 07-24-07, 09:22 PM	True Resurrection is preferable, sure, but a standard Resurrection works just as well really... although its not as pleasant a spell really. Its there, it works, it has a few drawbacks, but its better than ending up in the dead book. In favor of the wizard levels, sure you get more bang for the buck off the cleric levels, but in my own preference, I'd rather have 8 spells that a wizard could cast that are harder to make up, rather than the semi-redundant upgrades you'd get off the cleric levels. I'll admit it could be easily argued either way, but personally, I'd tend towards the wizard rather than the cleric. Though personally, I don't really have a problem with someone using True Resurrection in a frivolous manner, as you described there... presumably the party is going to be generally acting in the deity's better interests, and by the time they get to the point where they can cast it, I doubt they'd do it without a solid reason for it. At least one hopes they would... if they don't, then I personally would have booted them from the Deity's good graces long before it reached that point. ;)