Post/Author/DateTime	Post
creyzi4zb12 03-04-07, 10:01 AM	I read somewhere that mortals who do not worship gods, when they die go to some place like the wall of something...I forgot about it. Can anybody tell me what happens to mortals who don't worship gods when they die?
draco1119 03-04-07, 10:30 AM	I don't remember, but I remember the answer to your question is in the novel The Trial of Cyric. Sorry I couldn't be more help.
lavekkia 03-04-07, 02:13 PM	Their essences are melded with Wall Of The Faithless that surrounds the realm of Kelemvor
Lord Karsus 03-04-07, 07:53 PM	-There are three types of dead- the Faithful, the Faithless, and the False. Each group is pretty much self-explanitory. The Faithless get picked up by their respective deities. The Faithless are mashed into the Wall of the Faithless, and the False...Well, let's just say that they're better off accepting the offers to become Larvae by those Infernal powers...
creyzi4zb12 03-04-07, 07:56 PM	Is there no such thing as heaven in their cosmology?
Lord Karsus 03-04-07, 08:20 PM	Is there no such thing as heaven in their cosmology? -Yes, it's where the faithful go. "Heaven", the ultimate reward for one's soul, is represented by each deity taking their faithful to their divine realms.
Faraer 03-05-07, 11:56 AM	The number of Realms folk who don't worship gods at all is practically zero.
MarkusTay63 03-05-07, 01:16 PM	Thats why after tens of thousands of years the 'wall' looks more like garden edging. ;)
Zardnaar 03-05-07, 05:09 PM	Isn' Kelemvor a bit kinder than previous gods of the dead? I thought he was kinda the default god for the faithless.
Zevox 03-05-07, 05:35 PM	For the Faithless, no, they're stuck with the wall (what Kel thinks of that I don't know, but hes never tried to change it). For the False I believe hes rather kinder than his predecessors - where Cyric would often put them through torments and labor, Kelemvor assigns their punishments based on their actions in life and how severe their betrayal of their God was. So they could get anything from simple clerk duties around Kelemvor's Realms to... well, like Karsus said, the worst off of them would have been a lot better off selling themselves to the Baatezu. Its said that even they cringe at the fates some of those souls get... Zevox
Old Sage 03-05-07, 07:13 PM	Indeed. Faraer is correct. As Ed has said, on any given day lay worshippers and/or divine casters usually send prayers to a varied number of deities, entirely dependent upon the situation.
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 08:52 PM	As Ed has said, on any given day lay worshippers and/or divine casters usually send prayers to a varied number of deities, entirely dependent upon the situation. -For example, Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchfork #2 commonly sends prayers to Chauntea (to help his crops), Talos (to keep storms away), Helm (to protect his nephew, who is a Purple Dragon), and so on...
BrianCritchley 03-05-07, 09:01 PM	Isn' Kelemvor a bit kinder than previous gods of the dead? I thought he was kinda the default god for the faithless. what's he going to do with the faithless, it'd be pretty ****** to his followers to reward the fiathless the same as he did his followers.
Zardnaar 03-05-07, 09:08 PM	what's he going to do with the faithless, it'd be pretty ****** to his followers to reward the fiathless the same as he did his followers. I'm not saying he treats them the same as his followers but doesn't throw them into the wall any more. I could be wrong and would be interested in knowing what happens to the Faithless and False. Any canon sources? I assume the false would face oblivion of some sort.
GothicDan 03-05-07, 09:26 PM	You are wrong.
Zardnaar 03-05-07, 10:04 PM	I know that I'm just wondering is it still the same as 2nd ed?
Zevox 03-05-07, 10:14 PM	I know that I'm just wondering is it still the same as 2nd ed? Yup. As I said above, nothing's changed save perhaps that Kelemvor is a little softer on the False than his evil predecessors. Faithless are still bricks, False are still punished somehow. Zevox
Zardnaar 03-05-07, 10:26 PM	What books have the relevent info?
Zevox 03-05-07, 11:37 PM	I know the FRCS mentions it. I'm not sure what other books do, since we seem to have a shortage of FR books talking about the Planes this edition. Anyone else know of other books that mention this for 3.Xe? Zevox
Shemeska the Marauder 03-06-07, 12:08 AM	The local deific fascism of the Faerunian pantheon aside when it comes to mortal souls (worship is like protection money in a way), presumably a person who isn't native to Toril who dies on Toril would be treated differently. Either they would not be subject to Kelemvor's rules, and would simply transit through the Astral to the plane closest to their alignment in the multiverse at large, or they would be claimed by a Torillian deity acting by proxy for a similar god in the greater multiverse who might not hold a formal deific presence on Toril. Mask might collect the souls of worshippers of Tsung-Chiang and hand them over to the Lord of the Teardrop Palace in Gehenna in exchange for favors, or simply similar treatment on worlds where Tsung-Chiang was worshipped but Mask was not (which would be a hell of a lot of worlds on the prime). I can see that sort of deific give and take going on a lot for mutual benefit among like-minded gods.
Ioulaum 03-06-07, 12:18 AM	The local deific fascism of the Faerunian pantheon aside when it comes to mortal souls (worship is like protection money in a way), presumably a person who isn't native to Toril who dies on Toril would be treated differently. Either they would not be subject to Kelemvor's rules, and would simply transit through the Astral to the plane closest to their alignment in the multiverse at large, or they would be claimed by a Torillian deity acting by proxy for a similar god in the greater multiverse who might not hold a formal deific presence on Toril. Mask might collect the souls of worshippers of Tsung-Chiang and hand them over to the Lord of the Teardrop Palace in Gehenna in exchange for favors, or simply similar treatment on worlds where Tsung-Chiang was worshipped but Mask was not (which would be a hell of a lot of worlds on the prime). I can see that sort of deific give and take going on a lot for mutual benefit among like-minded gods. Or they become chips int he friday night poker game between gods. Mask: i will raise you 2 false and faithful of a god form somewhere else..
Zardnaar 03-06-07, 12:30 AM	Something me and Shemeska agree on. What happens to the souls of babys or children if they're to young to have chosen a god. Into the wall for you. Return FR to the great wheel.
Stigger 03-08-07, 03:02 AM	Great Wheel wouldn't make much difference where the Wall was concerned really. As to babies and children who haven't chosen a god yet... well, sucks to be them I'd say. Either that or you could take the warm and squishy viewpoint and stick them wherever their parents are going... I prefer the wall personally.
draco1119 03-08-07, 03:40 AM	What happens to the souls of babys or children if they're to young to have chosen a god. Personally, I'm of the opinion that, since they aren't old enough yet, either a god chooses them, or they get another chance at life.
Zardnaar 03-08-07, 04:38 AM	One could alos assume they go to their parent god or the god they were baptised in if such rituals are used in FR.
Empirate 03-08-07, 09:08 AM	What about stillbirths? What about mentally ill or very, very unintelligent people that don't ever think about gods? For example, because they have no memory or no sense of personality or whatever? Not thought through to the end, the faithful-false-faithless division. In the campaign I DM at the moment, I have a Thayan Wizard PC who actively preaches not to choose a patron: It's a protection racket, it's the big bad dudes oppressing humankind (which is perfectly capable of self-enlightenment) by making up rules that benefit nobody but themselves. In order to overthrow this system of extortion, you have to resist. So: no prayers, no listening to clerics, no nothing. By default, this makes him evil in alignment. He couldn't care less, though...
Lord Karsus 03-08-07, 09:24 AM	What about stillbirths? What about mentally ill or very, very unintelligent people that don't ever think about gods? For example, because they have no memory or no sense of personality or whatever? Not thought through to the end, the faithful-false-faithless division. -All of this demonstrates that the Faithful-Faithless-False thing was not the best of ideas. It is too much of a..."concrete" concept, when there is the potential for many, many loopholes.
Isildrae Kyuss 03-08-07, 10:25 AM	INTO THE WALL THEY GO! Life is a harsh thing and the Gods are a harsh bunch of entities.
Bonzai 03-08-07, 11:06 AM	In the Trial of Cyric, Kel did try to change things. He tore down the wall, and made his plane into a place where the wicked were punished and the just were rewarded. Unfortunatly, this had a terrible reprecussion. Good people all over the world started throwing their lives away. They knew that Kel would judge them fairly, and had nothing to fear from death. Once he realized what was happening, he more or less changed things back to the way they were. Quite harsh on the people who had the rules changed on them. But I never liked that whole system anyways.
Isildrae Kyuss 03-08-07, 11:10 AM	You'd think being a God and all he would have foreseen something like that - he needs to have more marketing and operations meetings with his team...endless hours of tripe later and they he may have realised accidental suicide could be attempted even by the most Lawful good of nicey nicey sickly sickly Paladins.
HVulpes 03-08-07, 11:32 AM	About children, well I believe that Ed gave a reply but I think it was this year as I could not find it in the old files. I believe that he stated that their souls were claimed by different gods depending on the circumstances. But This is from memory and I have not reveiwed all of Ed's replies for this year.
Khaelieth 03-08-07, 11:49 AM	I definetly don't think the dead children would go to their parents' gods. If your mother's raped by a Cyricist and you're later killed by them, it would suck to go the Cyric's Realm. In my campaigns, I'd rule that celestials "buy" them from Kelemvor, or that demons steal them. Kelemvor is just, not cruel.
Isildrae Kyuss 03-08-07, 11:52 AM	I like the idea of demon's stealing babies as easy fodder for souls. Goes back to that infamous demonic vs celestial poker game... "I'll see your two faithless and raise you 12 unbaptised undecided small innocent children...apart from that one...he looks nasty..."
Lord Karsus 03-08-07, 08:15 PM	If your mother's raped by a Cyricist and you're later killed by them, it would suck to go the Cyric's Realm. -Just want to point out that, that religion is hereditary through the mother, not the father...As much as religion can be heredited, anyway...
BrianCritchley 03-09-07, 04:04 PM	I'm going to note that the wall isn't some evil punishment, most souls when they go to an afterlife eventually willinging merge with the domain of their patron deity, the faithless lack a patron deity so they are just kinda forceiably merged with someone's deity, as the god of the dead Kelemvor just happens to luck out and get that soul stuff, which he uses to build a wall around his realm. your not merging directly with your deity so yeah it kinda sucks to be faithless, but thats the way it happens. is divine worship a protection racket? I dunno, seems almost like a aprtner ship to me, "worship me and I remain strong, this is what I do for you in return" in the system set up to favor the gods? well yes but.. thats no suprise, my poli-sci teacher once noted that political reform, TRUE political reform is rare because the present system works for those in power. this is true of the way the gods have the system in FR set up. it's a system that in the end encourages their remaining in power and the status quo. as such it dischourages stuff like ohh.. atheism. still the system is more egaltarian then real world religons. after all according to the christians the faithless are punished as much as the false.
Khaelieth 03-09-07, 10:32 PM	-Just want to point out that, that religion is hereditary through the mother, not the father...As much as religion can be heredited, anyway... We talking in real life or not?
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 11:37 PM	We talking in real life or not? -Real life. Religion is inhereted from the mother. I believe the proper term is "matriliniage", or something to that effect. But, remember, religion is a "personal choice", so I don't give too much creedence to that idea/concept.