Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Outlaw8888 02-17-07, 01:12 AM	You should probably base this in two ways: one on the official stats and another based on the novels. Shurupak & Gareth Dragonsbane are probably up there, but I'm really not sure so that is why I am asking.
Dark Wizard 02-17-07, 02:02 AM	Define what you mean by "best" and "fighter."
Outlaw8888 02-17-07, 04:24 AM	People who fight without spells Your Drizzt & Wulfgar type characters Best as who is going to beat the other guy You stick everyone in a tournament style fight match up who is going to end up the champion?
MerrikCale 02-17-07, 08:54 AM	I'm pretty sure Ed answered this at Candlekeep, its people ya don't know
Boda 02-17-07, 10:36 AM	no spells? -Rethnor, Selfaril, Shuruppak, Eltan, the barbarian dude (owner of a lodge) in rashemen.
Outlaw8888 02-17-07, 11:17 AM	what are their stats?
Boda 02-17-07, 06:03 PM	Rethnor(high captain)-fit16/rog7 Eltan(duke of baldur's gate)-fit20 You know shurrupak jhorrghel the black-bar20 selfaril-fit20/rng2
Lord Karsus 02-17-07, 08:55 PM	-Abordabe of Narfell is the highest level pure fighter, with a whopping 30 levels.
BloodofNumenor 02-17-07, 09:15 PM	Let's not forget that Drizzt won Melee Magthere about 1,000,000 years in a row. Fibbledorf Pwent would possibly be up there as well.
Lord Karsus 02-17-07, 09:18 PM	Let's not forget that Drizzt won Melee Magthere about 1,000,000 years in a row. Fibbledorf Pwent would possibly be up there as well. -Eh, neither one of them are very impressive. Drizzt is only 16th level. And, based on the fact that the Drow bested Pwent in a scuffle, the two are around the same level, with Drizzt probably a little higher.
Green Elven Vampire 02-17-07, 09:36 PM	Peirgeiron Paladinson (sp?) is a high level Paladin from Waterdeep.
Agudo Archmage 02-17-07, 10:28 PM	Its hard to find an all out tuff single class Ranger, but this guy comes close, with his multi Rang/Figh Name-DARON SASHENSTAR Age-Middle aged Race-Human Tehyrian Class- Ranger 10, Fighter 8,Merchant Pricne 5 Aligh-CG AC-20 Touch-11 Flat Foot-19 HP-119 (23 HD) DR-5/Magic Resist-cold 3q evasion Fort+14 Ref+ 14 Will+9 Str-16 Dex-12 Con-10 Int-16 Wis-12 Cha-15 More Info Can be found in (Powers of Faerun) pg 83 O' I know Rangers can cast some small magic...so sorry if this doesnt fit perf :)
ZolDarklock 02-18-07, 12:00 AM	Hamesetis, any guy that the red wizards crippled, and then threw into a gladiator pit unarmed, and then tossed every imaginable nightmare creature at him to kill him off in front of his fans, and the guys still manages to beat the hell out of everything they throw at him, in such a way his fan base in Thay forces the red wizards to spare his life and sell him into slavery instead, is got my vote... If your the undisputed thayian champion, and have never been defeated, even when intentionaly crippled, and set up to die against impossible odds, by the red wizards and live to see the sunrise, you got to be one of the best if not the best I don't care what level you are, if your'e good enough to pull that off you earned the right to were the title of Toril's best... and since Set purchased him, and healed him, and gifted him with special abilities, and some rumor he is even a chosen of Set now, I imagine his skill has grown unimaginable by now
creyzi4zb12 02-19-07, 11:53 AM	Vraak!! :cheer: :cheer: That orc dude who kicked ass at Zhentil keep and who received some kinda weird medal from King Azoun. One reason and one reason only = coz he's an orc!! Made for fightin an winnin :evillaugh
Lord Karsus 02-19-07, 11:54 AM	Vraak!! :cheer: :cheer: That orc dude who kicked ass at Zhentil keep and who received some kinda weird medal from King Azoun. One reason and one reason only = coz he's an orc!! Made for fightin an winnin :evillaugh -I would have never guessed...;)
Sir_Wolfgar 02-19-07, 12:35 PM	I wouldn't say Paladinson, but his bodyguard seems pretty damn beasty.
Nathanael Amaratharr 02-19-07, 01:09 PM	Fflar Starbrow Melruth is certainly among the greatest fighters Perhaps Keryth Blackhelm, too And I think one of the dwarf kings of the North (no, not Bruenor) is pretty good (Emerus Warcrown, or the other one)
creyzi4zb12 02-19-07, 01:34 PM	Whattabout Alustriel's sister? Is she a good ranger as epic level fighter? Fflar Starbrow Melruth is certainly among the greatest fighters Perhaps Keryth Blackhelm, too And I think one of the dwarf kings of the North (no, not Bruenor) is pretty good (Emerus Warcrown, or the other one) I think Obould the first kicked his ass in Felbar long ago. Obould Many Arrows!! Definitely one of the best in the realms!! Better than better than those hero wanabees of Salvatore.
boards 02-19-07, 09:50 PM	Isnt one of the Lords of Waterdeep a level 20 paladin of Tyre, 4 levels higher than the Open Lord.
TonyMontana1638 02-20-07, 02:46 AM	The Sheriff of Elversult is a 20th lvl Rgr if I recall (FRCS)
Karsus the Mad 02-20-07, 10:31 PM	Isnt one of the Lords of Waterdeep a level 20 paladin of Tyre, 4 levels higher than the Open Lord. That would be the Open Lord himself, Piergeiron Paladinson. Well, he's 20th level in 2e Heroes Lorebook, 15th level in the 3e FRCS...weird...I guess age is catching up... The greatest 5 fighters tho' is a 1st level commoner protecting his home and his four family members.
pocho 02-21-07, 01:28 PM	i think that if you go ''stats'' there will be an inmense amount of epic fighters, personally i found The greatest 5 fighters tho' is a 1st level commoner protecting his home and his four family members an interesting concept, overcoming odds in any level ( for a 1 commoner or a 16 fighter/pit master/bareknukle boxer overlord) that are by far against you, gives you a good measure to compare fighters
GothicDan 02-21-07, 02:05 PM	by "stats" there are relatively few Epic Fighters. The number of Epic archmages outnumbers the total of other Epic classes combined, several times. There's SOME truth to this, but it's been greatly exaggerated with multiple designers over the years.
RooktheFury 02-21-07, 07:28 PM	I got one that's a four letter word: KANE! We debated his stats on the boards and determined that he was epic. Also, he is detailed in the book to be the most dangerous man in the Bloodstone Lands. ANd he sure had those two dragons shakin!
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-22-07, 02:27 AM	Who's KANE? The wrestler? :confused: Are there stats on this creature?
Argaud 02-22-07, 11:07 AM	Who's KANE? The wrestler? :confused: Are there stats on this creature? The Grandmaster of Flowers! Fear Kane! :D Kane is a monk of Illmater. Probably the highest level monk of Faerun. He is one of Gareth Dragonsbane's old adventuring companions, so he must be around level 25 too.
GothicDan 02-22-07, 11:11 AM	Not necessarily at all. Age is never, ever a clear indicator of level!
Argaud 02-22-07, 12:15 PM	Not necessarily at all. Age is never, ever a clear indicator of level! Well, Kane was level 17 in the Damara/Bloodstone sourcebook (FR9, Bloodstone Lands); and this was when level 17 was as far as a monk could go. In 3.5 this guy will have Timeless Body, so he won't have problems with age (while Gareth is probably middle-aged, he was crowned King of Damara in 1359 DR).
Boda 02-22-07, 12:21 PM	I tought only fighters were included in your question. But if you what count with other classes then: dove falconhand rock the world. Big muscle, big magic, chosen thing, dials 9-1-1 and other chosen to the rescue!!! Or maybe Rhiannon for the shadow thieves, because while the other candidates fight each other, he'll death attack then one at a time!
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 02:07 PM	Well, Kane was level 17 in the Damara/Bloodstone sourcebook (FR9, Bloodstone Lands); and this was when level 17 was as far as a monk could go. In 3.5 this guy will have Timeless Body, so he won't have problems with age (while Gareth is probably middle-aged, he was crowned King of Damara in 1359 DR). -Think, though- what was he doing in all that time? If he was simply sitting around and not doing too much, he'd be about the same level. It takes action (EXP) to increase in skill (Go up levels). Who's KANE? The wrestler? :confused: Are there stats on this creature? -Heh. I remember Kane, the wrestler. He was just introduced when I started to wean myself off of wrestling. Pretty crazy guy...
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-22-07, 02:16 PM	-Think, though- what was he doing in all that time? If he was simply sitting around and not doing too much, he'd be about the same level. It takes action (EXP) to increase in skill (Go up levels). -Heh. I remember Kane, the wrestler. He was just introduced when I started to wean myself off of wrestling. Pretty crazy guy... Yeah Kane should be like a 15th level gladiator/15 Monk! Or A 1st level commoner. He plays a really cool killer in some movie.
Jax_Nightstalker 02-22-07, 04:34 PM	Drizzt Do'Urden is one of the best fighters in the Realms. Yeah yeah, he is tossed out there only as being 16th Leveled, but all in all he is still one of the best fighters produced out there. Think about it he was top in the Fighters School back in his homeland and won 9 years straight as the top fighter, he survived 10 years in the wilds of the underdark, his first 6 years alone on the surface as a wonderer, fought and won against a dragon (with help), and beat 2 demons (and some lesser demons in Passage of Dawn). This Dark Elf should be much higher in levels than he is for all the stuff he has done his few short dark elven years. Give this elf his due, he is one of the best fighters just like the high level fighters some of you guys are throwing out there.
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 04:45 PM	Drizzt Do'Urden is one of the best fighters in the Realms. Yeah yeah, he is tossed out there only as being 16th Leveled, but all in all he is still one of the best fighters produced out there. Think about it he was top in the Fighters School back in his homeland and won 9 years straight as the top fighter, he survived 10 years in the wilds of the underdark, his first 6 years alone on the surface as a wonderer, fought and won against a dragon (with help), and beat 2 demons (and some lesser demons in Passage of Dawn). This Dark Elf should be much higher in levels than he is for all the stuff he has done his few short dark elven years. Give this elf his due, he is one of the best fighters just like the high level fighters some of you guys are throwing out there. -Again, no, he is not. He is a middling level Ranger, or a Ranger/Barbarian/Fighter, if you want. Just because a person gets a lot of "camera time" doesn't mean they are anything particularly special.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-22-07, 05:07 PM	Artemis or Jarlaxle would pound drizzt in the dirt. Hey even though they are dead King Azoun and Zaknafein were nothing to shake a stick at. Zak was 24th in 2nd edition. There is a dwarven vampire in the underdark hamezaar who is a 7th fighter/3rd ranger/ 9th Blackguard who is a tough cookie.
Jax_Nightstalker 02-22-07, 05:27 PM	Artemis or Jarlaxle would pound drizzt in the dirt. Hey even though they are dead King Azoun and Zaknafein were nothing to shake a stick at. Zak was 24th in 2nd edition. There is a dwarven vampire in the underdark hamezaar who is a 7th fighter/3rd ranger/ 9th Blackguard who is a tough cookie. Lets see I do believe Artemis has lost to Drizzt a few times. Their last fight Drizzt would have won if it was not for a Dark Elf psionics who held Drizzt's in place where he couldn't move. Hands down Drizzt is a better fighter than Artemis. Jarlaxle I'm not sure. Lord K I know he has different classes, it does make his 16th level total with his classes combined. As far as special, I believe he is just like the rest of the fighters mentioned in this thread. That camera time you are talking about I call it the history of the character in question. I was just saying he should maybe have been a higher level and all I was saying he is one of the best fighters. If only in my own eyes. I believe Artemis, Jarlaxle, and Zaknefien Do'Urden are also some of the best fighters. Now can Drizzt be beat? O yeah, he got his lunch handed to him by a power upped Orc King.
Lord Karsus 02-22-07, 05:33 PM	Lord K I know he has different classes, it does make his 16th level total with his classes combined. -Yes, he is 16th level. I was originally just going to say a 16th level Ranger, but then I sensed someone would say, "What about Barbarian? What about Fighter", so I just threw all of his potential classes out there. As far as special, I believe he is just like the rest of the fighters mentioned in this thread. That camera time you are talking about I call it the history of the character in question. -I didn't mean it like that. I meant it that, just because Drizzt is featured in a lot of novels, and that he is popular doesn't make him, an elite fighter. As I said before, he is somewhere in the middle. This thread is about the Top 5 Fighters, in the Realms, after all. There are certainly 5 other fighter-types who are better at "fighting" than Drizzt.
herceg 02-23-07, 03:22 AM	Or just have higher levels without any fluff ;)
Jax_Nightstalker 02-23-07, 03:11 PM	-I didn't mean it like that. I meant it that, just because Drizzt is featured in a lot of novels, and that he is popular doesn't make him, an elite fighter. As I said before, he is somewhere in the middle. This thread is about the Top 5 Fighters, in the Realms, after all. There are certainly 5 other fighter-types who are better at "fighting" than Drizzt.[/QUOTE] :( You are correct Lord K, I must bow to your saying on that, Drizzt is just a middle level character.
creyzi4zb12 02-23-07, 08:03 PM	Drizzt is an elite fighter, he is just not epic. And sadly, to be one of the best fighters of the Realms u need to be epic. Obould!! now that guy is epic, I dunno how he's done his stats. But he's become a problem to Alustriel, Emerus Warcrown and almost all of the races of the north. And most of all, he's one of the best coz he is an orc!! Coz orcs rule!! Varkk too!! :D . Unfortunately people have a way of underestimating the guy.,
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-23-07, 09:24 PM	Drizzt class abilities are common. The only thing exceptional about him is the fact that he is a Good drow Ranger.
Lord Karsus 02-23-07, 11:41 PM	Drizzt is an elite fighter, he is just not epic. And sadly, to be one of the best fighters of the Realms u need to be epic. -Creyzi, for once, you've said something that makes absolute sense, and I agree with. Drizzt would be an elite fighter-type, but not an epic fighter-type.
Critalondel 02-24-07, 02:46 AM	Of course, we'll see how all those other fighters are doing in a hundred years, when Drizzt is still in his prime (and has a few more levels), and they're all dying of old age. ;) That's one of the silliest things about him, to me -- Drizzt is REALLY freakin' young for a Drow, and he's done so much in so little time. It's like some thirteen year old kid (in real life) being an action movie star. The highest level fighter I can think of from my own limited sourcebooks would be Zaknafein, from 2nd ed. He was just a flat out 24th level Fighter. That's a lot of feats. ;)
RooktheFury 02-24-07, 09:34 PM	Artemis or Jarlaxle would pound drizzt in the dirt. Hey even though they are dead King Azoun and Zaknafein were nothing to shake a stick at. Zak was 24th in 2nd edition. There is a dwarven vampire in the underdark hamezaar who is a 7th fighter/3rd ranger/ 9th Blackguard who is a tough cookie. No. Drizzt beat Artemis in their final battle. Jarlaxle, though, maybe. Drizzt is sweet and obviously highly underrated. Though Kane is still prolly the best ever.
The_Shaman 02-25-07, 03:22 PM	Drizzt is an elite fighter, he is just not epic. And sadly, to be one of the best fighters of the Realms u need to be epic. Obould!! now that guy is epic, I dunno how he's done his stats. But he's become a problem to Alustriel, Emerus Warcrown and almost all of the races of the north. And most of all, he's one of the best coz he is an orc!! Coz orcs rule!! Varkk too!! :D . Unfortunately people have a way of underestimating the guy., Obould? We're not talking about Obould Many-Arrows, are we? He must have gotten some sweet loving since FR Campaign Setting, since there he wasn't all that great. The fact that he can gather a heck of an army doesn't necessarily make him a great fighter.
421 02-25-07, 09:21 PM	Karsus is the best fighter in the realms ! If you don't believe me just wait till he casts Karsus' Avatar on Tempus. The Mad Mage will be the best swordman in Faerun. Well, the best axeman. A Mad Axeman. Oh Gods.... :weep:
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 12:36 AM	Karsus is the best fighter in the realms ! If you don't believe me just wait till he casts Karsus' Avatar on Tempus. -....:plotting: Obould? We're not talking about Obould Many-Arrows, are we? He must have gotten some sweet loving since FR Campaign Setting, since there he wasn't all that great. The fact that he can gather a heck of an army doesn't necessarily make him a great fighter. -Yeah, he's gotten some lovin'. Strangely enough, the events in the Hunter's Blade Trilogy take place before 1372, which means that the Obould in the FRCS is what the Obould from the HBT will eventually become. Because the FRCS makes no mention of it, his kingdom is going to fall within a few years, and the Orc King is going to "return" to his normal self, detailed in the FRCS. -Stupid prima donna author having to ruin continuity because he likes to have his stories set slightly behind the current timeline...:nonono:
Critalondel 02-26-07, 11:29 AM	I wouldn't say he LIKES to have his stories set behind the timeline, I'd say he's probably just behind a few deadlines, takes longer to churn out a novel than he'd like, and/or (the most likely) doesn't pay too much attention to the official FR continuity.
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 12:33 PM	I wouldn't say he LIKES to have his stories set behind the timeline, I'd say he's probably just behind a few deadlines, takes longer to churn out a novel than he'd like, and/or (the most likely) doesn't pay too much attention to the official FR continuity. -Said author in question could have simply set his latest trilogy during the current FR Timeline (DR 1373-1375), instead of the late DR 1360's. The novels in question were released when the official FR date was between those years. Understand my frustration?
ShadezofDis 02-26-07, 12:42 PM	-Said author in question could have simply set his latest trilogy during the current FR Timeline (DR 1373-1375), instead of the late DR 1360's. The novels in question were released when the official FR date was between those years. Understand my frustration? If I was authoring Realms I'd backdate as well. "What do you mean there's now a floating city in the Anauroch now??? Oh, you mean I should have read those memo's???" ;D Heck. . . I'm backdating as a DM as it is ;D
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 12:55 PM	If I was authoring Realms I'd backdate as well. "What do you mean there's now a floating city in the Anauroch now??? Oh, you mean I should have read those memo's???" ;D Heck. . . I'm backdating as a DM as it is ;D -Backdating is fine, as long as you adhere to the canon that is already official. Not for a DM, since they can do whatever they want, but for an author. -Take, for example, what we are discussing. Some "major" continuity issues have been raised because of the books we are discussing. The FRCS makes absolutely no mention of an Orc Horde establishing an empire, King Obould Many-Arrows being "powered up", and all that stuff. It'd be no problem if Obould was "depowered", and his empire collapsed within the timespan it takes to get to DR 1372, but...Well, I mentioned it before. You understand my frustration, though, right?
ShadezofDis 02-26-07, 01:02 PM	-Backdating is fine, as long as you adhere to the canon that is already official. Not for a DM, since they can do whatever they want, but for an author. -Take, for example, what we are discussing. Some "major" continuity issues have been raised because of the books we are discussing. The FRCS makes absolutely no mention of an Orc Horde establishing an empire, King Obould Many-Arrows being "powered up", and all that stuff. It'd be no problem if Obould was "depowered", and his empire collapsed within the timespan it takes to get to DR 1372, but...Well, I mentioned it before. You understand my frustration, though, right? Oh, I know what you were up to with that my good lord, I'm just a lil bugger ;) I COMPLETELY understand your frustration. I mean, with a little research we can have a wonderful continuity but some folks just don't seem to want to do the homework. (and that's as close as I'm gonna get to saying anything specific *g*) As is, I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out what recent events have done to trade routes and how prevalent knowledge of events would be. But it does keep me out of trouble ;D
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-26-07, 03:13 PM	These continuity issues are just a sign of laziness on the part of some of the Authors. I mean is it really that hard to scan a few realms books and make sure that your plot actually makes sense in the timeline your using. Also aren’t the editors supposed to pick up on these glitches? In the past we used to see lots of movie glitches in our motion pictures, but the movie companies no employ a bunch of an*l retentive geeks to look for that kind of stuff. Maybe these Authors should keep a realms fan on staff! Just lock him in your basement with all the realms books in the world a bag of Fritos and a case of Mountain Dew! Low maintenance realms data based installed!
Boda 02-26-07, 05:13 PM	the abordabe guy is 65 year old.
Lord Karsus 02-26-07, 05:48 PM	As is, I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure out what recent events have done to trade routes and how prevalent knowledge of events would be. But it does keep me out of trouble ;D -Good luck with that one. The amount of damage to trade that just the Elven Crusade did must be incredible. Now, add in the events of the Shadowbred...Incalculable... Also aren’t the editors supposed to pick up on these glitches? -I don't think so. The most likely scenario is that some professional editing company, or something is used. In that case, they don't really know about continuity, and all that. They're just looking for spelling, grammar, and other mistakes, you know? Maybe these Authors should keep a realms fan on staff! Just lock him in your basement with all the realms books in the world a bag of Fritos and a case of Mountain Dew! Low maintenance realms data based installed! -Replace the Mountain Dew with Orange Soda, and the Fritos with Doritos, and I'm in! :D the abordabe guy is 65 year old. -Well, he has 65 years of experience. That's why he's so tough. Plenty of older people who can kick the asses of those who are more than half of their ages. My stepfather used to live nextdoor to a WWII vet, and even when the guy was in his 70s, he looked like he could beat the crap out of any punk kid. :D
Av4tar 02-26-07, 06:49 PM	Drizzt Do'Urden. All of his enemies would only face deception and anger. He should be labeled as: "Warning, life risk!"
CainJustice 02-26-07, 11:42 PM	I forgot some of the lords levels...but Durnan, Mirt, are good...Athrogate was probably a very high level dwarf...Piergeron, Eltan are very high...but if Zaknafein was alive...my nod goes to him. In a D&D Battle, drizzt couldn't handle any of those guys.
irishwerewolf5 02-26-07, 11:57 PM	First off let me start by at least agreeing with those that entered *Kane into the mix. One of the more impressive figures ive read about in recent memory. Have to agree with all there. Next i have to say (despite my man-crush on Drizzt) he is in fact only considered a CR of 18. Therefore he doesnt quite make his way into the fighter hall of fame (as is apparent due to the EPIC inductees). However those whove agreed with the Obould entry do need to realize that Drizzt did at least survive a brush with said beastie (in all his God roid glory). Middle ground seems a bit too underrated IMHO. Maybe we can all agree on upper middle. As for Salvatores writing, i have this to say. I was under the impression that there was Mention of Obould amassing a large army (whos to say it didnt turn into his own kingdom) and that yes, indeed he is overthrown (by his own kind no less.....damn dirty orcs). Wizards, like all publishers, gives a bit of creative license to the author to make the story theirs. Whats the issue with him fleshin the small blurb that it was given in a sourcebook out a bit more? If there was no fleshing out then wed be looking at the same blurb and wondering why he didnt embellish to make the story interesting. Also, hes made the comment that he isnt in fact done with Oboulds story (GASP) which leads me to believe we WILL in fact see the ending foretold. Look at the big picture here all, there are gray areas in history (Fantasy, and reality histories) that contain events that, though not heard of, can still make the hairs on the back of our necks prickle with giddiness. Life isnt quite so cut and dry, so why should our reading be so? Just my two bits Irish
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-27-07, 01:33 AM	Yeah I was talking about the professional wrestler Kane! Lol;) Sorry.
Lord Karsus 02-27-07, 09:20 AM	Also, hes made the comment that he isnt in fact done with Oboulds story (GASP) which leads me to believe we WILL in fact see the ending foretold. -Remember, in the end, Obould Many-Arrows will wind up with the stats in the FRCS. The FRCS version of Obould is a characterization of him in DR 1372. The Hunter's Blade Trilogy is set in the late DR 1360s ( DR 1369, I think).
irishwerewolf5 02-27-07, 10:54 AM	-Remember, in the end, Obould Many-Arrows will wind up with the stats in the FRCS. The FRCS version of Obould is a characterization of him in DR 1372. The Hunter's Blade Trilogy is set in the late DR 1360s ( DR 1369, I think). Understood. However as far as great fighters, he WAS one at one point. Based on the fact that there should be two separate stat blocks for his character youd have to say that his more epic incarnation (God roided) should be placed in this conversation. Agreed that his less than steller FRCS stat block should be thrown out of said conversation, as it does not apply. Hes simply too.....for lack of better term......wimpy in that block to even be considered. Irish
Boda 02-27-07, 12:11 PM	70 year old guy could beat the crap of punk kids, but not other fighting experts. Age takes it's price on a guy. Besides, his presence isnt even acknowledged in FRCS. No abordabe tribe there, so maybe he's already died.
GothicDan 02-27-07, 04:50 PM	Given his level, and his probable strength/con from leveling, the minor penalties he would have taken from aging would still put him by far above the other fighters of the Realms.
Lord Karsus 02-27-07, 06:18 PM	Besides, his presence isnt even acknowledged in FRCS. No abordabe tribe there, so maybe he's already died. -The majority of NPCs aren't mentioned in the FRCS.
MarkusTay63 02-27-07, 06:27 PM	The one great thing S. Shend has brought us in his novel Blackstaff is an excellent reasoning for Realms canon to change from time to time. In fact, that is one of the things I really liked about the book. Khelben has been re-writing history for nearly a millenium. It is hinted at that others help him with this (like Laerel and El), and are probably doing a little bit of it themselves. So if we extrapolate from that, and add in the fact that most of the older 2e sources began with "some scholars believe" at the beginning, we can assume that maybe only 50% of what we read is the REAL truth. We get the 'watered down' version that the major players want us to know. In light of that, the Obould in the sourcebooks isn't accurate, it's more of a "as far as we know" type of thing. The 2e books were written in such a way as to allow us to 'bend' canon around our personal campaigns. 3e, for the most part, stopped giving us that 'out'. Steven Shend has given us back the 'inacurate knowledge' hook that served us so well. With that, all inconsistencies can be chalked up to 'bad journalism' or 'poor witnesses'. I rather like that. :)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-28-07, 01:54 AM	I agree. Well said Markus. However I still don’t like them offing my old favorites.
irishwerewolf5 02-28-07, 09:43 AM	The one great thing S. Shend has brought us in his novel Blackstaff is an excellent reasoning for Realms canon to change from time to time. In fact, that is one of the things I really liked about the book. Khelben has been re-writing history for nearly a millenium. It is hinted at that others help him with this (like Laerel and El), and are probably doing a little bit of it themselves. So if we extrapolate from that, and add in the fact that most of the older 2e sources began with "some scholars believe" at the beginning, we can assume that maybe only 50% of what we read is the REAL truth. We get the 'watered down' version that the major players want us to know. In light of that, the Obould in the sourcebooks isn't accurate, it's more of a "as far as we know" type of thing. The 2e books were written in such a way as to allow us to 'bend' canon around our personal campaigns. 3e, for the most part, stopped giving us that 'out'. Steven Shend has given us back the 'inacurate knowledge' hook that served us so well. With that, all inconsistencies can be chalked up to 'bad journalism' or 'poor witnesses'. I rather like that. :) Well said. You made what i was trying to say into something a hell of a lot more understandable and intelligent....lol. It just seems funny how many people attack Salvatore, IMO, for no REAL reason other than they dont agree with his take on the gray areas. If ya dont agree, dont read. That goes for all authors. I very rarely see 1 author that everyone agrees is perfect in all ways. Its just not human nature to do so. However i hardly think it fair to attack his choice of timeline because it interferes with a book that as stated above can be characterized as incomplete and or inaccurate depending on events we may not know about. Truth be told we can all probably say that theres only one author we wouldnt criticize, even if we didnt agree with him, and thats Greenwood. (for obvious reasons) So lay off the author hate people.....they get paid to do something wed all LOVE to do. Yeah im a bit jealous....but hey they obviously have a talent i dont have (or have yet to discover....please God let that be the case) and are capitalizing on it. BTW are there any official stats on the current Kane (from Road of the Patriarch)? Id love to see them. Yet another thing.....WIZARDS......this thread could give you a pretty good idea for a new FR sourcebook set. Fighters/Wizards/Rangers/ETC of Faerun a comprehensive guide to significant NPCs in Faerun as well as a players handbook for the particular base class. just a thought. Irish
ShadezofDis 02-28-07, 11:13 AM	With that, all inconsistencies can be chalked up to 'bad journalism' or 'poor witnesses'. I rather like that. :) I've always ran with that. It's actually pretty funny when a player will start to argue something and I get to say "Well, the person who told the person who told you overheard El incorrectly, then some of the folks embelished. . . that's just the way it is." :) I also backdate my games, so hopefully someone will have a reasonable write up for how Cormyr is after the Horde/Dragon/Drought . . . I thin. . . oh yeah, Tilverton too, I think that's it.
GothicDan 02-28-07, 01:35 PM	If ya dont agree, dont read. That goes for all authors. Criticism has long been a significant part of literature long before D&D came about.
herceg 02-28-07, 02:06 PM	70 year old guy could beat the crap of punk kids, but not other fighting experts. Age takes it's price on a guy. Besides, his presence isnt even acknowledged in FRCS. No abordabe tribe there, so maybe he's already died. Have you ever seen old japanese martial arts masters in action? :)
Lord Karsus 02-28-07, 02:42 PM	However i hardly think it fair to attack his choice of timeline because it interferes with a book that as stated above can be characterized as incomplete and or inaccurate depending on events we may not know about. -How is that not a fair point to attack? This is the main reason I dislike Salvatore. I have no real qualm with his characters, or his style of writing. But, as I have demonstrated a few times on the issue, his high horse has caused quite a few inconsistencies to Realmslore, specifically in the North. Would it really be that difficult to have Drizzt and Co. sit around for a few years, and 'port them to the current timeline (DR 1373-1375)? Criticism has long been a significant part of literature long before D&D came about. -If it weren't for criticism, we'd still be living under an opressive Catholic theocracy. Theoretically.
MarkusTay63 02-28-07, 03:14 PM	Just a point, LK- People like the Realms, either from the P&P game or the computer games. Some of these people (many coming over from the video market) become MORE interested in FR, and begin reading FR novels to learn more about the world they've grown to love. Then the computer game people even start to buy sourcebooks, even though they don't play! This is how the world we all love so much grows, because people enjoy and BUY the products. But, all of these people were already gamers in one fashion or another and already fans of the genre. R.A.Salvatore writes novels that wind up on the NY Times bestseller lists. Average people (non-gamers) buy and read his books. THEY become interested in the Realms and start buying novels by other authors, and some of them even cross-over and buy the sourcebooks. The become interested in the game through his novels, and some of them may even begin playing the comp. and P&P games because of the interest HE generated. See the difference? Salvatore is considered an author FIRST, and brings people into the fold. For the most part, people only read the other authors because they ALREADY have an interest in FR. I truly doubt a whole lot of people who never heard of FR are reading Shend or Greenwood novels. I'll just leave it at that. Sometimes there are VERY good reasons why someone is treated like a primadonna. No matter how much you may hate it, Drizzt and company have probably brought more people into our hobby then all the LGS's combined. Edit: Plus I just thought of something... he's never thrown an RSE our way. His stories only change the Realms in a very localized fashion, which obviously many people prefer.
GothicDan 02-28-07, 03:18 PM	Though note that Greenwood, I think, has had more non-TSR/WotC novels published than the others. Actually, Weis/Hickman might have that privilege. But Greenwood is certainly up there. That being said, I was introduced to the Realms via friends online telling me about them, and then reading the sourcebooks and falling in love. I loved reading 2E sourcebooks.
MarkusTay63 02-28-07, 03:22 PM	Sadly, of late thats pretty much as close to the game as I get as well. I forgot about Dragonlance! I personally never cared for the setting much, and have NEVER read a single DL novel. However, to be fair I have to agree with you and correct myself. Weiss and Hickman's novels have probably done as much, if not more, to bring people to D&D as Mr. Salvatore. Greenwood writes non-FR novels? I have no interest in reading them.
Lord Karsus 02-28-07, 03:27 PM	Just a point, LK- People like the Realms, either from the P&P game or the computer games. Some of these people (many coming over from the video market) become MORE interested in FR, and begin reading FR novels to learn more about the world they've grown to love. Then the computer game people even start to buy sourcebooks, even though they don't play! This is how the world we all love so much grows, because people enjoy and BUY the products. But, all of these people were already gamers in one fashion or another and already fans of the genre. R.A.Salvatore writes novels that wind up on the NY Times bestseller lists. Average people (non-gamers) buy and read his books. THEY become interested in the Realms and start buying novels by other authors, and some of them even cross-over and buy the sourcebooks. The become interested in the game through his novels, and some of them may even begin playing the comp. and P&P games because of the interest HE generated. See the difference? Salvatore is considered an author FIRST, and brings people into the fold. For the most part, people only read the other authors because they ALREADY have an interest in FR. I truly doubt a whole lot of people who never heard of FR are reading Shend or Greenwood novels. I'll just leave it at that. Sometimes there are VERY good reasons why someone is treated like a primadonna. No matter how much you may hate it, Drizzt and company have probably brought more people into our hobby then all the LGS's combined. -I'm in no way dimishing all of the stuff he's done for the Realms. But, is it that hard to conform to the same timeline that everyone- including the man who actually created the setting- uses? From a novel/sourcebook standpoint, I mean. What Ed does in his own campaigns happens whenever. When he writes official articles/novels/short stories, they take place in the current timeline. That's my only argument with him. Is it that hard to have Drizzt & Co. take a break for a couple of years, hanging out at Mithral Hall for a bit, to catch them up to current continuity? Am I at least making sense?
MarkusTay63 02-28-07, 03:32 PM	I actually like that his novels are a little behind. He was writing about the effects of the ToT on Menzoberranzan when the rest of us considered it ancient history. I could never figure out where Lolth was hiding in his novels though... source says she was in Menzoberranzan at the time.... :thinks:
ShadezofDis 02-28-07, 03:48 PM	I actually like that his novels are a little behind. He was writing about the effects of the ToT on Menzoberranzan when the rest of us considered it ancient history. I could never figure out where Lolth was hiding in his novels though... source says she was in Menzoberranzan at the time.... :thinks: I would LOVE more backdated books. Ones that worked on the unexplained things in Realmslore. Just. . . they'd need to actually pay attention to the lore. . . Oh, I'd also love it if they kept the gods out of the books too. I don't think I can expand upon that without becoming insulting so I'll just shut my trap :)
Lord Karsus 02-28-07, 06:09 PM	Just. . . they'd need to actually pay attention to the lore. . . -The key point. I, too, would love a novel set in, say, Myth Drannor. As I said on another board, another interesting set of novels would be set during the later days of the Imaskari Empire, and the founding of Mulhorand. There are, literally, thousands of years to work with.
Boda 03-01-07, 08:21 AM	Yep, but the abordabe tribe (mentioned in bloodstone lands), the largest of Narfell, doesnt exist in FRCS, so it's safe to assume that it doesnt exist anymore. Because abordabe was 65 years old in Bloodstone lands, a explanation would be that he died in the meantime. Yes, i have seen old martial arts masters in action. So? They are impressive, but even among them, they do not consider themselves as the best fighters in their arts.
Stigger 03-01-07, 09:12 AM	Bungobar Talltankard and Dimvel Stoutkeg... along with the rest of the Buckleswashers, because they just laugh at such folly.
Lord Karsus 03-01-07, 09:36 AM	Yep, but the abordabe tribe (mentioned in bloodstone lands), the largest of Narfell, doesnt exist in FRCS, so it's safe to assume that it doesnt exist anymore. Because abordabe was 65 years old in Bloodstone lands, a explanation would be that he died in the meantime. -Just because something doesn't exist in the FRCS doesn't mean that it doesn't exist at all. If that were the case, 65% of the Realms would have suddenly disappeared!
MarkusTay63 03-01-07, 10:27 AM	I think the kneebreakers are the coolest fighters in the realms... If originality counts for anything. ;) Also, I heard this level 1 Halfling down in Luiren spit out a watermelon seed, and it hit and KILLED a level 48 Arch Lich, and he wasn't even trying to hit him! Now thats TOUGH!
Zanan 03-01-07, 12:21 PM	I actually like that his novels are a little behind. He was writing about the effects of the ToT on Menzoberranzan when the rest of us considered it ancient history. I could never figure out where Lolth was hiding in his novels though... source says she was in Menzoberranzan at the time.... :thinks: Only Lolth knew where she was during the ToT. She was in Menzo and took Menzoberra's Dagger off Drizzt (the boy) once, as has been reported in Realms of the Underdark, in a story by Mark Anthony. (Just in case ... haven't checked it, but if anyone mentioned Drizzt, remember that this 16th level chap slaughters Orcish warriors (see DMG for description) 1 to 3 in the novels, not fighters of Obould's "calibre". ;) )
irishwerewolf5 03-01-07, 06:05 PM	Criticism has long been a significant part of literature long before D&D came about. I agree wholeheartedly that criticism is a large part of literature. I also look at criticism as a means of pointing out flaws that can be fixed that the author can either ignore or implement at his discretion. My statement was not so much aimed at you as it was toward those that, despite never having met the man, deem him unfit to write in the Realms. This despite the fact Greenwood obviously has no problems with him, nor many others that i can think of. This also despite the fact that, as Markus stated, hes done a great deal for the product in a general sense. That is my pet peeve. I cant stand the distaste for an author due to the fad that all others dislike him. Not to say that ive seen that here (although i think in the earlier points i did). I fit into the category of gamer in youth who strayed away for many years only to be pulled back in by a friend who used Salvatore to lure me in. Ive since come back to the gaming table and can say that the reason i did come back didnt rest solely on Salvatores shoulders so much as the product he was pimping. I love Salvatores books, and meeting him and talking with him solidified him as one of my favorite authors, due in large part to the fact that he IS a down to earth gamer who loves the product as much as i do. He just has the means to play a much larger role in shaping its destiny than me (at least from a canon standpoint.....at home i am the loremaster :) ) That being said i do understand your desire to see him move toward a storyline in the present. However i dont think that the desired Drizzt and the gang in present time really makes too much sense. They arent really able to stay put that long in his novels.....so that amount of time is askin a lot....just a bit too much. I actually wouldnt mind seeing Rannek,and the Demonblade gang in a novel format. I LOVE those characters, but alas...i think Atari has their rights. As for backdated material.....what has Drizzt and the gang done thats altered realmslore so horribly? In almost all instances the stories can still end in the desired FRCS lore base. As ive stated before as long as the outcome stays true to lore, whats the issue with embellishing on the gray areas? By the way....would Dorn from the Year of Rogue Dragons series fit into the topic here? I assume if you can hold your own against a dragon you deserve to at LEAST be mentioned. Irish
Stigger 03-01-07, 08:20 PM	I don't think it's a matter of hating Drizzt for anything he and company have done to mess up the Realms, so much as a reaction against him that stems more from the 'Drizzt PWNS' crowd. Not to put too facile an answer on it, but I suspect a lot of us very much dislike the current 'mainstreaming' that D&D and the Forgotten Realms have gotten, since a lot of the new types getting into it are probably the same sorts of people we hated in our youth and who used to mock us for our habits. Well, maybe not the only reason, but it seems that it could at least be a part of it... if that makes sense.
MarkusTay63 03-01-07, 10:27 PM	YEAH! :hoppingma Who do those cool kids think they are, playing OUR games? :censored: Unfortunaetly, its that 'jock' mentality that has people trying to get their characters up to level 70. :rolleyes: Too many new players think its all about the 'stuff', and not the inter-action. It's sad really, because they are missing out on the better part of the game, IMHO. :(
ZolDarklock 03-01-07, 11:28 PM	the pathetic way RA offed Shimmergloom and retook Mithral Hall altered realmslore horribly...
irishwerewolf5 03-02-07, 12:19 AM	the pathetic way RA offed Shimmergloom and retook Mithral Hall altered realmslore horribly... Wasnt that already in the cards? You cant really have Obould attacking the dwarves of Mithral Hall if there were no Dwarves in Mithral Hall. As far as Shimmergloom....i wasnt aware that he played such a huge role in Realmslore. I understand the idea of being mad at the, Drizzt rules all, mentality. I like Drizzt because of his character and understand his limitations as well. That problem SHOULD weed itself out as each of the newbies gets into a game and realizes that being a dark elf with two scimitars and a cat figurine is NOT ALLOWED :censored: . Sorry...it does indeed make me angry as well. But heres the crux of the situation (were gonna have to stop hijacking this thread friends...lol) its not his fault that his character has struck such a chord. He just wrote it.....in reality Drizzt wasnt even supposed to be his main character. We all know by now that Wulfgar was supposed to own our souls as Drizzt does. (kidding) Again hes just catering to the masses here. Actually Wizards is....and TSR did. Sorry thems just the rules. D&D is still a business that needs to be run with profits in mind. YES they want a bit of mainstreaming. Why do you think they created or allowed the creation of that steam punk cesspool called Eberron. (sorry sore spot) Thats right boys and gals....money. Its a more modern take on our old stomping grounds....and frankly im ok with a bit of remoddeling on the Realms as long as they dont shelve it. Ive seen too many freaking properties get shelved.....if the Realms gets shelved....sorry im out of the game for good. so forgive me if i seem undettered by the mainstreaming of the realms. Let them come.....they bring money.....and they dont have to sit at my table. As far as the jocks dont belong here idea. I take this stance. I had friends on both sides of the fence. I was a geeky sports guy. I kinda had the whole spectrum covered in HS and....well today. To me it seems kinda like sinking to their level to pull the same elitist actions of "you cant come to MY party" that they pulled with us (yeah i was a victim too despite my ins). Kinda makes me feel good to know they made themselves look like asses when they realize weve been doing something fun for years that they disliked because it made them feel better about themselves to be a :censored: about it. Again i stat....they dont have to sit at my table.....so i could care less. In such a social game....you choose who you game with. Also as ive already stated....let em put their money in and keep our beloved game afloat. I hold no ill will to any man willing to pay Wizards to play. That just means ill have more books to spend my money on. :) One last hing....noone answered my question about Dorn....any idea if hed fit the bill for the ACTUAL topic of this thread. Irish
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 12:28 AM	the pathetic way RA offed Shimmergloom and retook Mithral Hall altered realmslore horribly... -I recall that you mentioned that in one of the Draconomicons, he was...well, quite powerful. That being said i do understand your desire to see him move toward a storyline in the present. However i dont think that the desired Drizzt and the gang in present time really makes too much sense. They arent really able to stay put that long in his novels.....so that amount of time is askin a lot....just a bit too much. -With the Empire of Many-Arrows, why can Drizzt and Co. simply sit around Mithral Hall, waiting for the powder keg to explode, and every to be at arms once more? It would make sense, as Mithral Hall is Bruenor's kingdom, and I would hope that his allegiance to his people is stonger than his desire to go out and kill things. Think of it this way: With all the tension in the Persian Gulf right now, between the US and Iran, would it make much sense to send some of our most powerful naval vessels to the Sea of China, even thought they might be needed? That's how I am looking at it, anyway. As for backdated material.....what has Drizzt and the gang done thats altered realmslore so horribly? In almost all instances the stories can still end in the desired FRCS lore base. As ive stated before as long as the outcome stays true to lore, whats the issue with embellishing on the gray areas? -Well, for one thing, apparently, there is a huge Orcish empire that has been sitting in the North, since 1369 or so. The FRCS, and no products set afterwards, have ever mentioned anything about an Orc Kingdom. It's not that I am against change, or anything, but having his novels set in the past create inconsistencies, and loopholes in Realmlore that can be easily avoided by simply not doing that. What happens, theoretically, if a novel/sourcebook comes out, and mentions something about, oh, Nesme, that contradicts what was written in a future novel that is backdated? It just causes needless headaches. Like I said, I have nothing agains the guy personally, his characters (for the most part), or his style of writing. -Oh yeah...Salvatore also killed Chewbacca. Bummer...:( One last hing....noone answered my question about Dorn....any idea if hed fit the bill for the ACTUAL topic of this thread. -Sure, why not.
ZolDarklock 03-02-07, 12:30 AM	Mithral Hall was once the most exciting dungeon a DM could guide a party towards... with the greatest shadow dragon ever, a dragon that had almost 50% more hp than any other existing dragon, and his lair protected by drow, shadow mastiffs, shadows, grerater shadows, shadow demons, and actual TRUE SHADES, and of course the duergar, and a tribe of enslaved derro's... now throw in a massive never ending underground/underdark ancient dwarven complex filled the thre relams greatest treasures, and a way to introduce the players to the underdark and mezzo itself now RA comes along off's the dragon in the most pathetic fight scene ever written, and he also changed what was protecting / allied with the dragon to make it even easier for his characters Now Mithral Hall is nothing more than a place were a famous surface drow and his friends call home... SAD
ZolDarklock 03-02-07, 12:35 AM	Mithral Hall used to be an unconquerable dungeon where only the bravest and most experienced adventures would dare to enter, and then they could never conquer the place, they could only survive it's perils and hope to escape with a little of it's famed treasures to prove to the relams they are one of the few, the proud, the mithral hall survivor... now thanks to RA it's nothing more than a dwarven lollipop factory
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 12:40 AM	Mithral Hall was once the most exciting dungeon a DM could guide a party towards... -I'm going to have to disagree with you there. That honor belongs...er, belonged, to Myth Drannor.
irishwerewolf5 03-02-07, 12:43 AM	-I recall that you mentioned that in one of the Draconomicons, he was...well, quite powerful. -With the Empire of Many-Arrows, why can Drizzt and Co. simply sit around Mithral Hall, waiting for the powder keg to explode, and every to be at arms once more? It would make sense, as Mithral Hall is Bruenor's kingdom, and I would hope that his allegiance to his people is stonger than his desire to go out and kill things. Think of it this way: With all the tension in the Persian Gulf right now, between the US and Iran, would it make much sense to send some of our most powerful naval vessels to the Sea of China, even thought they might be needed? That's how I am looking at it, anyway. -Well, for one thing, apparently, there is a huge Orcish empire that has been sitting in the North, since 1369 or so. The FRCS, and no products set afterwards, have ever mentioned anything about an Orc Kingdom. It's not that I am against change, or anything, but having his novels set in the past create inconsistencies, and loopholes in Realmlore that can be easily avoided by simply not doing that. What happens, theoretically, if a novel/sourcebook comes out, and mentions something about, oh, Nesme, that contradicts what was written in a future novel that is backdated? It just causes needless headaches. Like I said, I have nothing agains the guy personally, his characters (for the most part), or his style of writing. -Oh yeah...Salvatore also killed Chewbacca. Bummer...:( -Sure, why not. Yes he killed Chewie....but at the behest of Lucas....so he cant be held accoutable for that. :) As for the orc citadel....i have to disagree. I bow to your realms knowledge sir (really i do....not being faceteous)....but there is in fact mention of the citadel of many arrows....and actually its downfall at the hands of.....well....more orcs (damn green psychos) Page 6 of the silver marches sourcebook. bottom right...take a quick scan. And as i see it....hes still got a lotta gray area he can work with. As for shimmergloom......just because hes powerful doesnt mean he cant die....and still not a huge contributor to said realmslore. If RA killed of oh....i dont know Khelben....wait.....no no.....maybe thats a bad example. I think you get he idea. if it was a LARGE contributor to realmslore id understand the argument a bit more....but Shimmergloom....cmon. :) One more time though......you do have a helluva lotta knowledge in your brain that i wish i had...im not nearly there yet....but i hope to be. Be my Yoda...please. :bow: irish
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 12:50 AM	Yes he killed Chewie....but at the behest of Lucas....so he cant be held accoutable for that. :) -I know, I know. You always kill the messenger though, right? That's my policy, anyway...;) As for the orc citadel....i have to disagree. I bow to your realms knowledge sir (really i do....not being faceteous)....but there is in fact mention of the citadel of many arrows....and actually its downfall at the hands of.....well....more orcs (damn green psychos) Page 6 of the silver marches sourcebook. bottom right...take a quick scan. -Does it? I don't have Silver Marches. What exactly (in a nutshell) does it say? Remember, though, the Fortress of Many-Arrows is not the Empire of Many-Arrows. One more time though......you do have a helluva lotta knowledge in your brain that i wais i had...im not nearly there yet....but i hope to be. Be my Yoda...please. :bow: -Would you like to join the Hands of Karsus? You get a good insurance plan, a dental plan, +1 to your Caster Level, and a +1 SR. Your work entails doing odd-jobs for me, like retrieving uncommon spell components, killing political enemies, and Dwelves...You know, that sort of thing. Whaddya say? :)
irishwerewolf5 03-02-07, 12:54 AM	Zol...it still can be. Backdate your game....lol....i know point of contention. I see your point....but stuff like that happens even in stories written NOW. One of my favorite names to drop....Khelben....cant much do that anymore now can i....but i dot see a hatefest going on Schend. THAT is my point....it happens all the time no matter WHEN the book is written or by whom. The matter of Chewie.....while it should be discussed elsewhere...lol....is this....who else could they have killed off that would have 1 kept your core characters together, and 2 had as much an impact on all of them all at the same time? It was a good choice (screw it....i cried and i am man enough to admit it) from a storytelling standpoint. It made us realize that the characters are not in fact invincible.....and their mortality made the series.....quite frankly my favorite series in a long time. I honestly felt that they gave themselves the opportunity to write ANYTHING and not get themselves in too much trouble. Irish
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 12:57 AM	One of my favorite names to drop....Khelben....cant much do that anymore now can i....but i dot see a hatefest going on Schend. THAT is my point....it happens all the time no matter WHEN the book is written or by whom. -Khelben's death was well detailed, explained, and all of that good stuff that invariably comes up on all of those "Khelben is dead! WTF!!" threads. ;) who else could they have killed off that would have 1 kept your core characters together, and 2 had as much an impact on all of them all at the same time? -If I had to pick somebody, I would choose Lando.
irishwerewolf5 03-02-07, 01:01 AM	If you throw in vision im all your....lmao. As for the silver marches....get it...i love it if for nothing else the pretty map....lol In a nutshell it says that the citadel was there for quite some time and that more orcs under another orc king decide to attack....have a 4 month war that ends in Obould standing....but not quite 100%. Then the armies of the silver marches decide to combine and stomp out said weakened army. As i said....a good deal of gray area for him to play in that i am looking forward to. I honestly like Obould a lot....so im more excited for THAT than i am for Drizzt. Oh and one more thing.....have elves a nd dwarves mated.....if so i am with you brother....the Dwelves must die....freakish little muscle bount pointy eared freaks. :) irish
Dark Wizard 03-02-07, 01:01 AM	That was Salvatore too, under suggestions from Lucas himself, no?
irishwerewolf5 03-02-07, 01:05 AM	-Khelben's death was well detailed, explained, and all of that good stuff that invariably comes up on all of those "Khelben is dead! WTF!!" threads. ;) -If I had to pick somebody, I would choose Lando. LANDO....damn right.....oh wait sorry. *shakes head* gotta get back to my senses. Anywho....Lando wasnt far reaching enough IMHO....he wouldnt have bee mourned nearly as much as they would have celebrated his life. Plus.....damned if Chewie didnt go out like a champ with a moon dropped on his head and all. Id wanna go out saving my best friends kid from a falling moon...thatd be the way to make an impact on EVERYONE. :fett: Irish
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 01:05 AM	If you throw in vision im all your... -Tell you what- I'll throw in Perminant True Seeing. That's better than a vision plan!
irishwerewolf5 03-02-07, 01:07 AM	That was Salvatore too, under suggestions from Lucas himself, no? Of course Lucas told him to do it. The characters cant wipe their arses without that money grubbin movie geek (godlike though he may be) lettin em. Anything that happens with his core characters HAS to go through him and in a lot of instances he actually tells them whats going to happen (as with RA) and lets them flesh out the rest. Irish
irishwerewolf5 03-02-07, 01:08 AM	-Tell you what- I'll throw in Perminant True Seeing. That's better than a vision plan! IM IN......where do i sign?
Critalondel 03-02-07, 01:25 AM	To be honest, my biggest beef with Salvatore (even more than the Drizzt fanboys all over the place, or the fact he's behind the curve on the timeline) is how just freakin' silly all his Dwarves are. They've got stupid names, they've got a stupid accent, and they have ridiculous mannerisms. I can think of two scenes -- TWO -- where Bruenor (who should and could be one of the coolest, toughest, meanest Dwarven Fighters in the Realms) wasn't just being ridiculous. One is when he was riding Shimmergloom to the bottom of the canyon, hacking and singing away (which was lame for Shimmergloom, but made Bruenor look cool), and the other was a few scenes later when he was going it alone against a bunch of Duergar. That's...it. Everything else he's ever done, anything that would ever be a dramatic or serious moment has been ruined by someone with a silly name being on-hand (I mean, c'mon, Dagnabbit? Seriously?), a lame accent ruining the speech, or his general "heehee, Dwarves are cartoons!" mentality running rampant ("Oo oi," need I say more?). I loved parts of the Dark Elf Trilogy (the parts about Dark Elves, not just about Drizzt), I've enjoyed several of his villains (though I've always enjoyed them more than his heroes), and Salvatore's obviously got a good thing going, has brought amazing numbers of people into the hobby, and that black skinned and white haired cash cow with two scimitars is still going strong -- but I hate how every Dwarf he's got is a silly charicature.
irishwerewolf5 03-02-07, 01:39 AM	To be honest, my biggest beef with Salvatore (even more than the Drizzt fanboys all over the place, or the fact he's behind the curve on the timeline) is how just freakin' silly all his Dwarves are. They've got stupid names, they've got a stupid accent, and they have ridiculous mannerisms. I can think of two scenes -- TWO -- where Bruenor (who should and could be one of the coolest, toughest, meanest Dwarven Fighters in the Realms) wasn't just being ridiculous. One is when he was riding Shimmergloom to the bottom of the canyon, hacking and singing away (which was lame for Shimmergloom, but made Bruenor look cool), and the other was a few scenes later when he was going it alone against a bunch of Duergar. That's...it. Everything else he's ever done, anything that would ever be a dramatic or serious moment has been ruined by someone with a silly name being on-hand (I mean, c'mon, Dagnabbit? Seriously?), a lame accent ruining the speech, or his general "heehee, Dwarves are cartoons!" mentality running rampant ("Oo oi," need I say more?). I loved parts of the Dark Elf Trilogy (the parts about Dark Elves, not just about Drizzt), I've enjoyed several of his villains (though I've always enjoyed them more than his heroes), and Salvatore's obviously got a good thing going, has brought amazing numbers of people into the hobby, and that black skinned and white haired cash cow with two scimitars is still going strong -- but I hate how every Dwarf he's got is a silly charicature. While i can agree that some of the names are a bit humorous and over the top, i cant say i dislike the Dwarves hes created. I think the Dwarves lend themsleves to being brash and loud and a bit comical. In most cases authors write them that way. I also think they lend themselves to being a lot deeper than they let on as well. Just because their brash doesnt mean they arent intelligent. You dont defend your home against a horde without a bit of intelligence and seriousness. But to an extent i see your point. Im just saying i LOVE dwarves and part of the reason is i can play them as loud drunken Irish/Scottish characters. (gee did my name give it away) However that is just a statement of opinion. :) Irish
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 02:38 AM	IM IN......where do i sign? -Just put in your sig that you are a Hand of Karsus, and eveything's set. :)
Stigger 03-02-07, 04:48 AM	Dunno... without those humorous dwarves, I'm not sure I could have taken reading those books... sure they provide comic relief, but the tragedy of the Drizzt character would be nearly unreadable without it to me. Kinda stopped reading the series after the Drow invasion of Mithral Hall though, so I doubt I've seen the worst of it. But the earlier stuff I thought contrasted well, showing the dwarves as bright and lively despite their tragedies, against the horrors that are Drow culture.
Zanan 03-02-07, 04:51 AM	Just in case, lads and lasses ... before a WizO gets his or her scythe out ... we are talking about the Top 5 Fighters in the Realms, not Salvatore, Mithral Hall, Chewbacca et al, don't we?
Stigger 03-02-07, 04:56 AM	Well, yes, but it was a deviation to discuss the sort of environment that would breed those top 5 fighters you see... and that's why the Buckleswashers would win, because they're Hin, and don't have all the emotional baggage to carry around, and so are capable of focussing more without the angst to get in the way... so... yeah.
irishwerewolf5 03-02-07, 10:31 AM	I keep trying to stay on topic while discussing the others as well. Ive asked a few times with no response (is that my fault) about Dorn from the YORD series. As i stated before....its gotta go in your favor that you can stand toe to toe with a dragon. And yes i mean during the story....not at the end. Not gonna ruin anyones story by saying why. (BTW great story.....good read) Remember....yell at the others, its ALL their fault. Damn intelligent conversation....theres no place for that in this world.:banghead: Irish
Stigger 03-02-07, 10:34 AM	Never having read it, couldn't say... that's the half-golem fellow though, right? If it is, presumably he's at least extraordinarily tough enough to maybe compete at that level... maybe not win on skill, but possibly long enough to outlast everyone else. :D
irishwerewolf5 03-02-07, 10:39 AM	Never having read it, couldn't say... that's the half-golem fellow though, right? If it is, presumably he's at least extraordinarily tough enough to maybe compete at that level... maybe not win on skill, but possibly long enough to outlast everyone else. :D Yep. Hes the half golem fighter. And Im not sure anyones done any sort of write up on his character....but he was pretty tough indeed. Irish
Stigger 03-02-07, 10:44 AM	Hmmm... no idea what those stats would look like... don't think I've ever even seen him mentioned stat wise come to think of it. Gotta be somewhere around here, even if its only an unofficial version of them.
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 10:54 AM	Ive asked a few times with no response (is that my fault) about Dorn from the YORD series. -I answered you a few posts back!!
irishwerewolf5 03-02-07, 11:10 AM	-I answered you a few posts back!! Yeah you did! my bad. Sure why not...lol. Oh well....I think im gonna look up some possible write ups on the character and see if i cant find out if he does belong in the conversation. Irish
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 11:49 AM	Yeah you did! my bad. Sure why not...lol. Oh well....I think im gonna look up some possible write ups on the character and see if i cant find out if he does belong in the conversation. Irish -Off of the top of my head, here is what I propose: Dorn: Half-Golem Human Fighter 8 / Dragonslayer 5
ElGrecoETAC 03-02-07, 01:53 PM	I can't agree with that assessment. I think you forget that the majority of what you mention deals with Salvatore's depiction of Dwarves from Clan Battlehammer. That particular group has always been described as motley, irreverent, etc., and a large part of that had to do with their journey and subsequent fall following the taking of Mithril Hall. Contrast their description with that of Dwarves from other settlements. Non-Battlehammer Dwarves tend to be more somber, more conservative, etc. The exception to this, that I can think of off the top of my head is the foppish aide to Alustriel and the mercenary featured in the Sellswords series. Note that both of those individuals are likewise products of their lifestyle; the former reflects the experience of Silverymoon, devoid of Dwarven influences, and the latter reveals his excessiveness to be the product of his separation from other Dwarves.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-02-07, 06:07 PM	Who are the top 5 human fighters in the realms? And by fighters I mean characters who’s primary class is either fighter, ranger, or paladin.
Stigger 03-02-07, 07:23 PM	I'd imagine Texter of Waterdeep would be in line for that list... no idea who else though, I pay more attention to the spellcasters than the melee types.
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 08:20 PM	Who are the top 5 human fighters in the realms? And by fighters I mean characters who’s primary class is either fighter, ranger, or paladin. Abordabe of Narfell (Fighter 30) Dabron Sashenstar (Fighter 23) Naergoth Bladelord (Fighter 22) Eltan (Fighter 22) Hamsetis (Fighter 22) Raithspur (Fighter 21) Rualadeen (Fighter 21) Thydrim Yvarrg Bearkiller (Fighter 21) Entar Silvershield (Fighter 21) Easel Gifford of Amn (Paladin 21) Olwyn Forest-Friend (Ranger 21)
Stigger 03-02-07, 08:42 PM	Not to be a nitpicker, but Dabron Sashenstar actually has more levels in ranger than he does fighter.
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 08:51 PM	Not to be a nitpicker, but Dabron Sashenstar actually has more levels in ranger than he does fighter. -I'm just going by Kuje's 2e NPC list. According to him, as per FR Adventures, Sashenstar is pure Fighter.
MarkusTay63 03-02-07, 09:16 PM	Hmmm... on topic? How about that Dwarf from the 2e Player's guide, Lorrick? Supposedly, he walked into a cavern FILLED with goblins alone, and came back out an hour later with a blody axe. Then again, they were JUST goblins.... :rolleyes: Now, on to IMPORTANT stuff - Chewies DEAD?! :weep: Did drizzt kill him? Knowing the author, he's probaly just making love to a succubus until its his time to return from the dead. :bored: Landos a SHMUCK! (it needed to be said). :D -Just put in your sig that you are a Hand of Karsus, and eveything's set. :)Don't do it!!! :eek: Can't you see the tiny little horns he's trying to hide under his hair? And that whole "signing in blood" thing! It's a trick... run... run as far and as fast as your foots will take ye' ;) I see your power is growing karsus... perhaps it is time for me to call in my favor from Eltab.... :devil:
BrennonGoldeye 03-02-07, 09:43 PM	Don't do it!!! Can't you see the tiny little horns he's trying to hide under his hair? And that whole "signing in blood" thing! It's a trick... run... run as far and as fast as your foots will take ye' :waits: Do I come to MILF meetings and flap my jaws? :waits: I see your power is growing karsus... perhaps it is time for me to call in my favor from Eltab.... Yummy, regenerating venison. KtM, any recipes?
Lord Karsus 03-02-07, 11:20 PM	Chewies DEAD?! :weep: -He died quite a few years ago, actually. Don't do it!!! :eek: Can't you see the tiny little horns he's trying to hide under his hair? And that whole "signing in blood" thing! It's a trick... run... run as far and as fast as your foots will take ye' ;) I see your power is growing karsus... perhaps it is time for me to call in my favor from Eltab.... :devil: :ahem: :angelhide
Stigger 03-03-07, 12:29 AM	Ah... Power of Faerun updated him then, ranger 10 / fighter 8 / merchant prince 5.
irishwerewolf5 03-03-07, 12:34 AM	Im tired and cant stay on topic....might have to make our own thread discussing....whatever the heck we want some time soon. Karsus, Markus, gang....been fun....hope to have a lot more intelligent conversations with you in the future. Did anyone mention Drizzt?:evillaugh Irish
creyzi4zb12 03-03-07, 08:57 PM	I don't think Drizzt should be included here. He uses lots of magic to aid him in battle like darkness, not to mention the tons of artifacts he has.
BrennonGoldeye 03-03-07, 09:07 PM	I don't think Drizzt should be included here. He uses lots of magic to aid him in battle like darkness, not to mention the tons of artifacts he has. Um, any fighter who doesn't use all the devices, magical or otherwise, that the realms offer wouldn't get anywhere near this list. :fight!:
MarkusTay63 03-03-07, 09:29 PM	True that, as long as he doesn't use spells then he qualifies. Artemis does (qualify), but Jarlaxle doesn't.
Azar_of_Faerun 03-03-07, 10:13 PM	Would a god qualify, if he didn't use magic (as in, spells or magical gear)
ZolDarklock 03-03-07, 10:23 PM	There is only one fighter in the realms who would make the list if no magic, including magical weapons were not allowed... Hamesetis, he's undefeated, he's honorble, he's well trained in fighting without magical or any other sort of aid, and his record of defeating everything the red wizards could throw at him in a pit, while unarmed and crippled by them, and he still managed to defeat every nightmarish creature they thru at him... of course that old rumor about him beating the hell out of a dracolich with a stick is an unfounded rumor started by a very sore and dead dragon ;-) Hamesetis makes my list, all others are just high level fighters using magical aid to keep them alive, it appears hamesetis is the only fighter in the realms who doesn't need them to survive against impossible odds
Lord Karsus 03-03-07, 11:43 PM	I don't think Drizzt should be included here. He uses lots of magic to aid him in battle like darkness, not to mention the tons of artifacts he has. -Drizzt has plenty of magical items, but no artifacts. The last artifact he had (The Crystal Shard), he got rid of, for "moral" reasons...
ZolDarklock 03-04-07, 12:07 AM	drizzit never had the crystal shard, and artemis got rid of it
Lord Karsus 03-04-07, 12:11 AM	drizzit never had the crystal shard, and artemis got rid of it -If I am not mistaken, at the end of the novel sharing the name of the artifact, the sentience within it was tempting the Drow Ranger, but he spurred it's advances, and thus "got rid of it".
ZolDarklock 03-04-07, 12:44 AM	at the end of the crystal shard it was buried in a avalnache, caused by drizzt and the wizards battle with each other
creyzi4zb12 03-04-07, 01:20 AM	How about Mirt the moneylender? THat guy from Waterdeep sure kicks a lot of a**.
irishwerewolf5 03-04-07, 01:32 AM	As Karsus IS my Yoda figure i HAVE to let you know that he is indeed correct about the crystal shard. At one point Drizzt did have it in his possesion.....and the crystal wasn't happy about it. If need be i will find the appropriate passages to prove my statement correct. :rant: Just ask Karsus...ill do it...i will. BTW for those that didnt get it......i was JOKING about Drizzt....hes only a CR of 18.....and a lot of the prior mentioned names are all in the epic stat sets. I guess i didnt put enough lols around it to prove my joke to be effective. Sorry. :banghead: Irish
Zanan 03-04-07, 04:17 AM	at the end of the crystal shard it was buried in a avalnache, caused by drizzt and the wizards battle with each other Dunno, but anybody actually read the last of the Crystal Shard's book, i.e. its encounter with the red dragon et al (Servant of the Shard)? Not that this is something that needs to be discussed hereabouts. As for top fighters, that Fallen King of Impiltur, Death Knight (ex.) Pal 8 / Blackguard 10 looks a good bet ... (Champions of Ruin)
Stigger 03-04-07, 10:35 AM	Why would using a racial ability that was magical disqualify you for a list like this? You'd be an idiot not to use every advantage at your disposal... feh. Dunno about the fallen prince though, 18 levels doesn't look that promising compared to some of the other names on the list so far.
Zanan 03-04-07, 11:47 AM	Why would using a racial ability that was magical disqualify you for a list like this? You'd be an idiot not to use every advantage at your disposal... feh. Dunno about the fallen prince though, 18 levels doesn't look that promising compared to some of the other names on the list so far. Dunno what the first bit of your reply is related too, but with regard to the list, the Fallen Prince is actually ECL 23, which is still below Lord Dragonsbane methinks (Pal 20 / Clr 5). Neither are exactly "fighters", but methinks the leading F 30 chap is one from the "Bloodstone Lands 100 level" - adventure time, nothing "for real". Just MHO, of course and he's still canon.
irishwerewolf5 03-04-07, 02:42 PM	Id have to say that ECL of 23 puts him at LEAST into the conversation....hes not the winner....but then we arent having a contest so much as a discussion. Irish
creyzi4zb12 03-04-07, 07:55 PM	If a little bit of magic is included then my vote is for Amril Zoarn from Waterdeep. -He killed three lords of Waterdeep -He kicked Elminster's a** -He got chased by almost half of the entire Harper team -He got away with it.
bitter thorn 03-05-07, 12:17 AM	It makes sense to me LK. I just don't see the attraction of backdating. It does seem to make some folks quite happy from a DMimg standpoint though. To each thier own I reckon. -I'm in no way dimishing all of the stuff he's done for the Realms. But, is it that hard to conform to the same timeline that everyone- including the man who actually created the setting- uses? From a novel/sourcebook standpoint, I mean. What Ed does in his own campaigns happens whenever. When he writes official articles/novels/short stories, they take place in the current timeline. That's my only argument with him. Is it that hard to have Drizzt & Co. take a break for a couple of years, hanging out at Mithral Hall for a bit, to catch them up to current continuity? Am I at least making sense?
bitter thorn 03-05-07, 12:34 AM	LANDO....damn right.....oh wait sorry. *shakes head* gotta get back to my senses. Anywho....Lando wasnt far reaching enough IMHO....he wouldnt have bee mourned nearly as much as they would have celebrated his life. Plus.....damned if Chewie didnt go out like a champ with a moon dropped on his head and all. Id wanna go out saving my best friends kid from a falling moon...thatd be the way to make an impact on EVERYONE. :fett: Irish I am sooo lost!:confused: :confused: :confused:
bitter thorn 03-05-07, 12:41 AM	Abordabe of Narfell (Fighter 30) Dabron Sashenstar (Fighter 23) Naergoth Bladelord (Fighter 22) Eltan (Fighter 22) Hamsetis (Fighter 22) Raithspur (Fighter 21) Rualadeen (Fighter 21) Thydrim Yvarrg Bearkiller (Fighter 21) Entar Silvershield (Fighter 21) Easel Gifford of Amn (Paladin 21) Olwyn Forest-Friend (Ranger 21) Are any of these guys dwarves?
Dark Wizard 03-05-07, 02:07 AM	Most of them are human, which makes sense given all of the NPCs on that list came from 2e where humans could rise to any level, but demihuman races, like dwarves capped out at a certain level, even in fighter, though it was probably the highest cap of all the classes a dwarf could take.
bitter thorn 03-05-07, 03:20 AM	Most of them are human, which makes sense given all of the NPCs on that list came from 2e where humans could rise to any level, but demihuman races, like dwarves capped out at a certain level, even in fighter, though it was probably the highest cap of all the classes a dwarf could take. I always hated that in previous editions.
Zanan 03-05-07, 08:35 AM	There was of course one Zaknafein Do'Urden, listed as a fighter 24 before his matron put him to the ... sacrifical dagger.
Stigger 03-05-07, 09:31 AM	Zanan... that was more directed at Zol's comment about no magic being included. As to the rest of it, since BAB locks at +20 and epic AB progression follows the same formula for every class, it would kind of come down to who had the best tactics and armor class. I vote for whoever has the highest Int modifier really. :D
Dark_beebles 03-05-07, 10:40 AM	Hmm I my pick is the Guy from the FRCS, He has a ECL of at least 41...plus w/e his chosen template gives him. And no its not the thay dude. Vampire lord with chosen template and 27 Char lvl's to boot. Dont say which god he is a chosen of..but the god is died during the ToT's. He is located in a small 1 paragraph section (like how they explain Jarlaxle and gromph..just the race/lvl/class) of the book...I believe its near the Moonsea section (been like 3 years or more since i looked at it). I'll try to find it and get back with a name.
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 11:01 AM	Hmm I my pick is the Guy from the FRCS, He has a ECL of at least 41...plus w/e his chosen template gives him. And no its not the thay dude. Vampire lord with chosen template and 27 Char lvl's to boot. Dont say which god he is a chosen of..but the god is died during the ToT's. He is located in a small 1 paragraph section (like how they explain Jarlaxle and gromph..just the race/lvl/class) of the book...I believe its near the Moonsea section (been like 3 years or more since i looked at it). I'll try to find it and get back with a name. -Fzoul Chembryl operates in the area, and he is a Chosen of Bane...But, he is no Vampire Lord, nor does he have such a high CR. Plus, he's a cleric, and thus, cannot be included in this list. I think you are getting a couple of different NPC mixed up, and you're meshing them into one being.
Stigger 03-05-07, 12:06 PM	Sounds almost like he's referring to Shuppurak... almost.
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 12:22 PM	Sounds almost like he's referring to Shuppurak... almost. -A combination of Shuppurak and Manshoon, methinks.
herceg 03-05-07, 03:36 PM	I think he's talkin' about Shuruppak (Fighter20/Rogue3/Wizard7), ex-chosen of Gilgeam. But that's just a hunch...
GothicDan 03-05-07, 03:58 PM	Has anyone ever made any links with Shurrupak and Shuppurak?
herceg 03-05-07, 04:03 PM	By Shuppurak you mean the city? How about Gilgeam = Gilgamesh? :)
GothicDan 03-05-07, 04:06 PM	The name of someone I can't spell. I meant, any connections between the NPC Shurrupak and the Sumerian city?
herceg 03-05-07, 04:08 PM	Actually there's a mythological city called Shuppurak (in the epic of Gilgamesh), and some kings from the sumer kinglist ruled the actual city called Shurrupak. I believe the NPC has connection to the later(s).
Stigger 03-05-07, 04:11 PM	Shuruppak (sorry, got the spelling wrong last time) was Gilgaem's former chosen... The other one was a demon/devil/evil-god if I recall correctly... I think, can't find any reference to it offhand, so don't hold me to that one :D Oops, guess not... probably me just hallucinating again then. Thought it was something to do with goblins for some reason.
ElGrecoETAC 03-06-07, 10:35 AM	Specifically, I think he's meshing Manshoon, Manshoon's vampiric clone, and perhaps even poor old Fzoul (simply for the "Chosen" template).