Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hobscrk777 04-02-07, 09:32 AM	I recently realized that spells didn't just end at 9th level - you just have to be really powerful to cast higher than that! Then I happened to be reading some pages of a page entitled "The Grand History of the Forgotten Realms" (http://www.geonomicon.com). Specifically, I was reading "The History of Netheril." (http://www.geonomicon.com/chronology/temporum/netheril.htm) In this document, it lists Karsus's Avatar as the only 12th level spell known to exist. So that made me wonder.... I'm assuming (although this could be totally wrong) that Karsus is the only one to have ever been able to cast this single 12th level spell. So what other famous (or not so famous) NPCs can cast these 10th and 11th level spells? And for that matter, just what are these 10th and 11th level spells? I'm pretty familiar with 1-9, but not any higher.
booze 04-02-07, 10:40 AM	nowadays no one can cast spells higher than 9th level anymore... after the Karsus incident Mytra banned all spells higher than 9th level now you have epic spells to serve for extremely powerful spells above 9th level and to find old 10+ spells... i think they're on some of the free downloadable supplements from 2nd edition
Karsus the Mad 04-02-07, 11:42 AM	I'm assuming (although this could be totally wrong) that Karsus is the only one to have ever been able to cast this single 12th level spell. That is correct. Karsus was the only mortal to ever cast 12th level magic. Ioulaum met the level requirement, but never developed any 12th level spells. Both clocked in at a whopping 41st level (and Ioulaum is still around as an elder brain lich wizard31/archmage5/Netherese arcanist5.) So what other famous (or not so famous) NPCs can cast these 10th and 11th level spells? And for that matter, just what are these 10th and 11th level spells? I'm pretty familiar with 1-9, but not any higher. Before the Fall of Netheril, any arcanist of 20th+ level could cast 10th level spells, any arcanist of 35th+ level could cast 11th level spells, and any of 40th+ level could cast 12th level spells (has ever been only one 12th level spell). For some true 10th+ spells, you can find them in the Netheril: Empire of Magic set, which is a free download here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads. After the Fall of Netheril in -339 DR, Mystra has banned all spells of 10th+. Now the only way to achieve spells of effectively higher than 9th is via the Epic Spellcasting feat. The most notable practioners of Epic spellcasting are the elves, who call it High Magic.
Dr_Tough 04-02-07, 11:48 AM	Like a previous poster said: no spells above 9th level, but some 10th and 11th level spell effects can be duplicated by epic level spells. If I'm not mistaken, you can find rules for that in Lost Empires of Faerun.
Karsus the Mad 04-02-07, 11:58 AM	Like a previous poster said: no spells above 9th level, but some 10th and 11th level spell effects can be duplicated by epic level spells. If I'm not mistaken, you can find rules for that in Lost Empires of Faerun. The Player's Guide to Faerun has epic spell versions of Proctiv's move mountain (used in the creation of flying cities), and Tolodine's killing wind. Lost Empires of Faerun has the epic spell version of Ioulaum's longevity.
The_Shaman 04-02-07, 01:01 PM	My standard interpretation: as above. My personal interpretation: whomever has 10+ level spell slots and has Mystra's permission (or happens to be Mystra). It's her ban, after all. Of course, researching and/or finding a 10+ level spell isn't going to be easy.
Lord Karsus 04-02-07, 05:01 PM	My personal interpretation: whomever has 10+ level spell slots and has Mystra's permission (or happens to be Mystra). It's her ban, after all. Of course, researching and/or finding a 10+ level spell isn't going to be easy. -Well, that's the thing- no one has Mystra's permission. No one that we know of, anyway.
redmagefish 04-02-07, 05:37 PM	mystra.....
The_Shaman 04-02-07, 05:59 PM	Mystra can definitely exempt herself from the ban, and I wouldn't be surprised if Azuth and Savras are also considered dependable enough. Heh, I wish they had included epic spellcasting and a few sample 10/11/12 level spells when they did Mystra's writeup in F&P. Heck, Ioulaum's Longevity was a lvl 10 spell, I shudder to think what a lvl 12 spell would look like :drool: . Probably something along the lines of Karsus' Avatar. Which brings the poing, are there 10+ level spell in the Shadow Weave? If Shar wanted to entice mages to come over, that would work like a charm as long as her own paranoia doesn't prevent her from trying it.
Karsus the Mad 04-02-07, 06:42 PM	Mystra can definitely exempt herself from the ban, and I wouldn't be surprised if Azuth and Savras are also considered dependable enough. It would depend on whether it's merely a Ban she placed upon magic, or whether it's the result of her recreating the Weave to prevent such magic ever being possible. Lore is iffy, rightfully so, as the exact nature of the Ban. If it's merely Mystra's will, then I would imagine she herself would be immune to it. However, if it's the Weave itself that is nolonger able to support such magic, then Mystra is likewise limited...as odd as they may seem. I shudder to think what a lvl 12 spell would look like . Probably something along the lines of Karsus' Avatar. Since it's the only 12th level spell to have existed, I feel it's likely that a 12th level spell would indeed appear like Karsus's Avatar:P Which brings the poing, are there 10+ level spell in the Shadow Weave? If Shar wanted to entice mages to come over, that would work like a charm as long as her own paranoia doesn't prevent her from trying it. Unknown. It's true that the SW is not affected by Mystra's Ban, but that doesn't automatically mean the SW is itself capable of supporting true level magic on the scale of 10th+.
Lord Karsus 04-02-07, 07:02 PM	Mystra can definitely exempt herself from the ban, and I wouldn't be surprised if Azuth and Savras are also considered dependable enough. Heh, I wish they had included epic spellcasting and a few sample 10/11/12 level spells when they did Mystra's writeup in F&P. -Can G-d create a rock that He cannot lift? -Thankfully, this situation isn't as philosophically complicated. Mystra cannot be exempt from the ban because she never fell within it's auspices in the first place. The Ban is on mortal magicians, which Mystra certainly is not. Which brings the poing, are there 10+ level spell in the Shadow Weave? If Shar wanted to entice mages to come over, that would work like a charm as long as her own paranoia doesn't prevent her from trying it. -I highly doubt it, for two reasons. Firstly, Mystra "ended" 10+ Level magic because it was a large strain on her. Would Shar risk straining herself, and leaving herself open to attacks from Selûne, Mystra, or any of her other enemies. Secondly, Shar is a secretive, manipulative deity. Most 10+ Level spells were "over the top"- not something that Shar seems likely to ever promote. I'm sure that she wouldn't stoop below making mortals think that she can provide them with 10+ level magic. That sounds like Shar.
Dr_Tough 04-02-07, 08:36 PM	Mystra can definitely exempt herself from the ban, and I wouldn't be surprised if Azuth and Savras are also considered dependable enough. Well, Azuth and Savras are deities of lesser and demi power respectively, so by their very deific natures can do things that mortal mages can only dream of. 10th level spells or not.
ShadezofDis 04-02-07, 10:04 PM	That gets me to thinking about what Hell (or you're outter plane of preference). If it's the Weave that is the barier between a mage and 10+, specifically 12th, then a caster could go to another plane and cast such a spell. ... You might have to make said god create an avatar. . . or come up with a way for "having said god in the plane". . .but it seems reasonable that one could pull off Karsus' plan. Wow, that might. . . just might be a hook for a "gaining godhood" campaign that doesn't make me vomit in my mouth ;D Not that I'd expect anyone to pull it off, I'm just sayin
Karsus the Mad 04-02-07, 10:07 PM	That gets me to thinking about what Hell (or you're outter plane of preference). If it's the Weave that is the barier between a mage and 10+, specifically 12th, then a caster could go to another plane and cast such a spell. ... I believe (don't qoute me!) that it's the plane itself that depends on whether true 10th+ magic would work. While out of Realmspace, a mage draws upon the magic of the plane. I've also read on these boards that it's Toril/Realmspace's unique Weave that allowed true 10th+magic to begin with.
ShadezofDis 04-02-07, 10:14 PM	I believe (don't qoute me!) that it's the plane itself that depends on whether true 10th+ magic would work. While out of Realmspace, a mage draws upon the magic of the plane. I've also read on these boards that it's Toril/Realmspace's unique Weave that allowed true 10th+magic to begin with. Gha . . . so . . . the Weave is the Realmspace access for "magic". Both the "magic" and the Weave are Realms specific. Other planes may or may not have a Weave. Other planes may or may not have "magic". It's just a grand coincidence that magic missle is magic missle is magic missle (baring those other planes where magic missle is just some freak waving his fingers spouting gibberish).. . . . . . sorta thing?
Karsus the Mad 04-02-07, 10:26 PM	Gha . . . so . . . the Weave is the Realmspace access for "magic". Yup, but is not magic itself. Both the "magic" and the Weave are Realms specific. Possibly. The Weave is Realms specific and is merely the conduit in which people safely harness the power of raw magic (ditto for the SW). Other planes may or may not have a Weave. They don't. Any mage casting a spell instead draws upon the magic of the plane itself. Other planes may or may not have "magic". If you mean true 10th+ magic, you're correct. It's just a grand coincidence that magic missle is magic missle is magic missle (baring those other planes where magic missle is just some freak waving his fingers spouting gibberish).. . . . . . sorta thing? Sorta, sorta not. The method of pulling the energy and shaping magic into an effect (ie: casting magic missle) remains the same, merely the source of the magic changes. If the source the mage is drawing upon however isn't capable of such an effect, the effect won't happen.
hobscrk777 04-02-07, 11:05 PM	Thanks for all the great responses! Is there anywhere else that details level 10 and 11 spells besides the Netheril:Empire of Magic set? I did a lot of searching around today for some more info on this, and these names repeatedly came up: Larloch, Telemont Tanthul, the Simbul, and Ioulaum. How about Elminster, even? Or Araevin Teshurr (after his transformation through The Last Mythal series? I know Ioulam is responsible for the 10th level spell Ioulam's Longevity, but what about any of the others? I read somewhere that Larloch has a special arrangement with Msytra to be able to cast 10th and 11th level spells.
Karsus the Mad 04-02-07, 11:16 PM	Is there anywhere else that details level 10 and 11 spells besides the Netheril:Empire of Magic set? Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves details some 10th level elven spells I think. However, in 3e, most of them have been converted to either 9th level spells or epic spells, since LEoF declared that all were banned from 10th+ magic. I did a lot of searching around today for some more info on this, and these names repeatedly came up: Larloch, Telemont Tanthul, the Simbul, and Ioulaum. How about Elminster, even? Or Araevin Teshurr (after his transformation through The Last Mythal series? Larloch, Telemont, and Ioulaum were Netherese archwizards during the time of Netheril, and as such had access to true 10th+ magic. Now however, due to the Ban, none do. I know Ioulam is responsible for the 10th level spell Ioulam's Longevity, but what about any of the others? Not that I know of. As the inventor of the mythallar tho', I would imagine he invented whatever magic he needed to create it. I read somewhere that Larloch has a special arrangement with Msytra to be able to cast 10th and 11th level spells. Ah, no. Here's the qoute you might be thinking of:) Mystra (Midnight's predecessor as the goddess) is said to have allowed Larloch to acquire powers approaching those of "old Netheril" in return for 'leaking' spells to persistent adventurers he or his minions might come into contact with, but this may be no more than rumour spread by the Zhents or Red Wizards or Dragon Cultists, designed to lure adventurers into Larloch-weakening forays...
ShadezofDis 04-02-07, 11:17 PM	Yup, but is not magic itself. Oh I know that one, I'm almost tempted to give psionics a go ;) Common sense tells me to lay off though Possibly. The Weave is Realms specific and is merely the conduit in which people safely harness the power of raw magic (ditto for the SW). They don't. Any mage casting a spell instead draws upon the magic of the plane itself. If you mean true 10th+ magic, you're correct. You know, sometimes the way quoting works sucks, but I think this time it did the trick. These statements in a row can work out to a sorta theory like; The ability to power true 10th+ magic makes the "raw magic" a hazordous "tool" to use (aka. it'll give ya cancer, or fry you're poor mortal brain) The Weave allows mortal (and divine?*) access to this "raw magic" in a nonhazardous sorta way. If a plane's "raw magic" cannot support true 10th+ magic then that "raw magic" will not be hazardous to mortals (and the divine) AND that makes sense, I'm big on sense ;) Sorta, sorta not. The method of pulling the energy and shaping magic into an effect (ie: casting magic missle) remains the same, merely the source of the magic changes. If the source the mage is drawing upon however isn't capable of such an effect, the effect won't happen. This sorta makes sense as well, the Weave isn't really an "access" so much as a "filter". There's no choice in using the Weave in faerun, it is simply how magic flows into the world (and associated "Weave having" planes, or demiplanes, or quasiplanes or whatever) and Mystra can "shut off" that filter, which blocks anyone using "magic" (ie. casting spells) A diety may or may not be able to "go around" the Weave and dip into "raw magic" (Cyric would be the absolutely worst example to go by "what a diety can do" :)) but it is nigh unto impossible for a mortal to pass by the Weave. I still get stuck on "a magic missle is a magic missle is a magic missle" though. . . it really feels like FR should have it's own spellcraft. . . but that could be ignorance. . . I have had it in the past and they say it's recurring
Dr_Tough 04-02-07, 11:42 PM	Of course going to a different plane isn't going to help you cast 10th level spells if you don't know any. Remember that they simply don't exist on Faerun and haven't for like 1,500 years or something. So, 99.9% mages wouldn't even know where to begin if they wanted to do such a thing.
ShadezofDis 04-02-07, 11:55 PM	Of course going to a different plane isn't going to help you cast 10th level spells if you don't know any. Remember that they simply don't exist on Faerun and haven't for like 1,500 years or something. So, 99.9% mages wouldn't even know where to begin if they wanted to do such a thing. Thanks. That's sorta implied though, cause I didn't want to type that paragraph.
Lord Karsus 04-03-07, 12:36 AM	They don't. Any mage casting a spell instead draws upon the magic of the plane itself. -Exactly. That's why on the Plane of Fire, fire spells are heightened, on the Plane of Water, water spells are heightened, and so on.
ShadezofDis 04-03-07, 09:35 AM	-Exactly. That's why on the Plane of Fire, fire spells are heightened, on the Plane of Water, water spells are heightened, and so on. Indeed, I'm just trying to get a handle on what's what because that will modify one of "my realms'" theories on the nature of the Planes (or some such nonsense *g*) And I'm trying to make it make sense to me. Right this second I'm sitting on the psuedo(psuedo because it's not worked out well yet) theory above, which isn't clearly spelled out yet but it's, IMO, a pretty good start. :)
ShadezofDis 04-03-07, 09:39 AM	Larloch, Telemont, and Ioulaum were Netherese archwizards during the time of Netheril, and as such had access to true 10th+ magic. Now however, due to the Ban, none do. Though, theoretically, they could find a plane that supported true 10th+ magics and cast their true 10th+ spells there (assuming they didn't lose their spell books that contained those spells *g*) Not that such a plane has been show to us, but the multiverse is a big place ;)
Lord Karsus 04-03-07, 12:43 PM	Though, theoretically, they could find a plane that supported true 10th+ magics and cast their true 10th+ spells there (assuming they didn't lose their spell books that contained those spells *g*) Not that such a plane has been show to us, but the multiverse is a big place ;) -Theoretically. If I recall correctly, there was another setting that had a wizard or two who were either: (A) "Netherese Arcanist High Level" (B) Had access to 10+ Magical Spells
Karsus the Mad 04-03-07, 12:51 PM	Though, theoretically, they could find a plane that supported true 10th+ magics and cast their true 10th+ spells there (assuming they didn't lose their spell books that contained those spells *g*) Not that such a plane has been show to us, but the multiverse is a big place ;) I have a very hazy memory, but I think I'm thinking (yeah, that's how hazy my mind is right now...just woke up) of a place that has some infinite pillar, and the further away from the pillar, the higher the level of magic does work. -Theoretically. If I recall correctly, there was another setting that had a wizard or two who were either Dark Sun? I semi-recall something about Dark Sun having "10th" level spells. Uggh...I need some :whatsthis
ShadezofDis 04-03-07, 01:06 PM	I have a very hazy memory, but I think I'm thinking (yeah, that's how hazy my mind is right now...just woke up) of a place that has some infinite pillar, and the further away from the pillar, the higher the level of magic does work. Makes me think of the Outlands, but I couldn't really say one way or another. Though it does get me to thinking if the elemental planes could support true 10th+ magic that is of the element involved (ie. the fire plane supports true 10th+ fire magic) Dark Sun? I semi-recall something about Dark Sun having "10th" level spells. Uggh...I need some :whatsthis I don't recall specifically, but it would make a sort of sense in that magic had to flow through either life forms or through sun magic (which could be a different sort of "filter" system than the Weave but serves the same purpose of "cleaning" the "raw magic" so to speak)
Jhiroth 04-03-07, 01:10 PM	-Exactly. That's why on the Plane of Fire, fire spells are heightened, on the Plane of Water, water spells are heightened, and so on. So on the Plane of Magic, does this mean magic is heightened? Theoretically then, a wizard could create a 10th level spell on this plane and cast it there, but not on Toril.
Karsus the Mad 04-03-07, 03:28 PM	So on the Plane of Magic, does this mean magic is heightened? Theoretically then, a wizard could create a 10th level spell on this plane and cast it there, but not on Toril. In FR, the Plane of Magic is Dweomerheart. The plane does have the enhanced magic trait, which makes all spells extended, enlarged, and empowered, as the metamagic feats without taking up higher slots. PGtF says nothing of above 9th level spells, so I would assume the plane fits the "natural" progression of magic (0-9th then Epic), rather than the enhanced escalation that existed during Netheril (do keep in mind that even when it was possible, only the Netherese are the only known mages to utilize true 10th+ magic; elves preferred Epic magic, and the Imaskari utilized Epic magic; so just because true 10th+magic was technically possible doesn't mean it was commonly used by all spellcasting civilizations. I think a similar mentality could possibly be applied to extraplanar spellcasters: You work with what you know works.).
ShadezofDis 04-03-07, 03:52 PM	In FR, the Plane of Magic is Dweomerheart. The plane does have the enhanced magic trait, which makes all spells extended, enlarged, and empowered, as the metamagic feats without taking up higher slots. PGtF says nothing of above 9th level spells, so I would assume the plane fits the "natural" progression of magic (0-9th then Epic), rather than the enhanced escalation that existed during Netheril (do keep in mind that even when it was possible, only the Netherese are the only known mages to utilize true 10th+ magic; elves preferred Epic magic, and the Imaskari utilized Epic magic; so just because true 10th+magic was technically possible doesn't mean it was commonly used by all spellcasting civilizations. I think a similar mentality could possibly be applied to extraplanar spellcasters: You work with what you know works.). And, as an additional note, Mystra's ban (AFAIK) to Dweomerheart. So it again depends on the nature of Mystra's ban (aka, did she recreate the Weave or modify the Weave so it would not support true 10th+ magic or did she just put a block in front of true 10th+ magic) if one could cast 10th+ magic there.
Karsus the Mad 04-03-07, 04:01 PM	And, as an additional note, Mystra's ban (AFAIK) to Dweomerheart. So it again depends on the nature of Mystra's ban (aka, did she recreate the Weave or modify the Weave so it would not support true 10th+ magic or did she just put a block in front of true 10th+ magic) if one could cast 10th+ magic there. Precisely my good Shadez. It all depends on a variable we don't know.
ShadezofDis 04-03-07, 06:19 PM	I have a very hazy memory, but I think I'm thinking (yeah, that's how hazy my mind is right now...just woke up) of a place that has some infinite pillar, and the further away from the pillar, the higher the level of magic does work. House of Knowledge (which has an infinite spire in its center) How bout that one? I bet it rings a bell. I sorta feel like a feeb when reading rip, it's pretty amazing.
lavekkia 04-04-07, 08:10 AM	Ruins Of Myth Drannor (or maybe Fall Of Myth Drannor) had at least one 10th lvl spell: Morryghan Mythaleash; probably there are others. That said you could pick up the 2e True Dweomers (which are NOT 10th lvl spells) and assign them a level
hobscrk777 04-04-07, 09:19 AM	Sweet! I checked out the old edition of "The Fall of Myth Drannor." It does indeed have a few 10th level spells. There's a really cool one called The Srinshee's Spellshift, and it mentions four people capable of casting it: Aravae Irithyl (heir to the Coronal), Mythanor, Elminster, and, of course, the Srinshee. Also, what's the relationship between Elven High Magic and 10th+ level spells? I've read that high magic requires a circle of very powerful mages, but this is what it requires, not what it does. Is high magic a way of replicating these higher level spells (albeit it takes several mages to accomplish, whereas in ancient times it only took one)?
ShadezofDis 04-04-07, 10:11 AM	Also, what's the relationship between Elven High Magic and 10th+ level spells? I've read that high magic requires a circle of very powerful mages, but this is what it requires, not what it does. Is high magic a way of replicating these higher level spells (albeit it takes several mages to accomplish, whereas in ancient times it only took one)? I believe they are two different beasts. Back when casting true 10th+ spells were able to be cast there was only one nation that got into it, Nethril. Elven High Magic . . . well, I'm pretty darned ignorant about Elven High Magic so I'll just let someone who actually knows about the differences chime in, I just know that they're different :D
BrennonGoldeye 04-04-07, 10:31 AM	I sorta feel like a feeb when reading rip, it's pretty amazing. That's our Rip. Enfeeblement is his specialty. :)
ShadezofDis 04-04-07, 10:47 AM	That's our Rip. Enfeeblement is his specialty. :) Did I mention you're a bad man? I got love and all, but man. . . that was tough :D Edit: At least you didn't bold the feeb part though, that'd have just been too far. :) I'm pretty sure I'm actually in awe of Rip to tell the truth ;)
BrennonGoldeye 04-04-07, 10:52 AM	That's our Rip. Enfeeblement is his specialty. :) So I truly meant that Rip could enfeeble others at will. He's just that good. Annoying in a "Why didn't I see that?" sorta way, but just that good.:D
ShadezofDis 04-04-07, 11:00 AM	So I truly meant that Rip could enfeeble others at will. He's just that good. Annoying in a "Why didn't I see that?" sorta way, but just that good.:D Hahaha, awesome, always a good time when a pun sneaks up on ya ;)
Lord Karsus 04-04-07, 06:29 PM	Also, what's the relationship between Elven High Magic and 10th+ level spells? -Absolutely nothing. Since you don't seem to be keen on 2e lore, don't start looking at the rules regarding Elven High Magic, since things have been retconned. -Netherese 10+ Level Magic is exactly as it sounds- spells that were so powerful that they were classified as over level 9. They were cast by a single caster, and were extremely taxing to the Weave, since it drew all of it's power from it directly. -Elven High Magic is a form of Epic Magic. The only way it is different from normal Epic Magic is that only the Elves know the exact rituals needed to cast Elven High Magic Spells. There are two types of Elven High Magic Spells- Rituals of Solitude, and Rituals of Myriad. The Rituals of Solitude (RoS) are "less powerful" are are Epic Magic spells that can be cast by the individual Elf. Rituals of Myriad (RoM) are very powerful, and takes the concentration and unity of multiple Elven High Magi to control and contain.
ShadezofDis 04-05-07, 11:07 AM	All this talk has gotten me to thinking about the defiler I am eventually going to work into my campaign. . . Though if I were to allow him access to 10th+ level Darksun spells . . . though if I wait for the party to get to that level. . . well, it'll take YEARS (I do not believe in handing out levels like candy :p) However, my theory on it is sorta spelled out above, basically; If Darksun does indeed have 10th+ spells then Darksun's "raw magic" might be comparable to Toril's. (and for the sake of my little thought process) In Darksun there is likely no Weave (likely, not assured, and for this I'm going to assume no Weave) The way Darksun's magic system evolved functions like the Weave in that when channelling the magic through plants, animals or the sun removes the "carcinogens" of the "raw magic" (note: I'm running with a "certain levels of 'raw magic' are dangerous to use, thus the cancer/carcinogen analogy *g*) Thus, on Toril, a defiler (or preserver) could access 10th+ spells through their magical techniques. Though I would say that 0-9th can use plant filters, 10th and above would require animal filters (probably sentient animals and likely the more magical the animal the more they could "filter" so to speak) or sun magic. Of course this is all theory based off of other unproven theories, but it feels like a pretty neat package :)
Karsus the Mad 04-05-07, 05:38 PM	Sweet! I checked out the old edition of "The Fall of Myth Drannor." It does indeed have a few 10th level spells. There's a really cool one called The Srinshee's Spellshift, and it mentions four people capable of casting it: Aravae Irithyl (heir to the Coronal), Mythanor, Elminster, and, of course, the Srinshee. The Srinshee's spellshift can be found in LEoF, as a 9th level spell. Sweet spell actually. I especially love the manipulate ability. I wove that effect into my mantled mythal.:shifty:
Stigger 04-05-07, 06:11 PM	That is an awesome spell... been trying to figure out a way I could justify one of my PC's getting it. No luck yet with anything that isn't impossibly unlikely. :( :D
Karsus the Mad 04-05-07, 06:24 PM	That is an awesome spell... been trying to figure out a way I could justify one of my PC's getting it. No luck yet with anything that isn't impossibly unlikely. :( :D They could...I dunno...be the wizard they are and research a variant?:D
Stigger 04-05-07, 06:29 PM	Too easy... was more hoping to swipe it off of Elminster or something. Maybe trade him for a handful of magic beans or something. He is getting a bit on in years, and maybe the vision is going a bit. Could just tell him that they're the Beans of the Karsii and see if his ears perk up at that...
Karsus the Mad 04-05-07, 06:32 PM	Too easy... was more hoping to swipe it off of Elminster or something. Maybe trade him for a handful of magic beans or something. He is getting a bit on in years, and maybe the vision is going a bit. Could just tell him that they're the Beans of the Karsii and see if his ears perk up at that... I have some beans of the Karsii actually. Well, they're refried beans of the Karsii, but I think they'll do.
Stigger 04-05-07, 06:42 PM	Always preferred pinto beans myself... but, times up, off to the dentist for yet more torment and pain. One of these days I'm going to have a clear head that isn't being affected by massive amounts of painkillers or a virus. :D
Eatable_Dice 04-05-07, 07:05 PM	What I donīt understand is the difference between Epic spells and 10+ level spells. Could I have an epic spell that replicates Mavinīs Creat Volcano, for instance?(The atomic bomb of spells for those who do not recall of it)
lavekkia 04-06-07, 06:51 AM	What I donīt understand is the difference between Epic spells and 10+ level spells. Could I have an epic spell that replicates Mavinīs Creat Volcano, for instance?(The atomic bomb of spells for those who do not recall of it) Yes; Karsus has already done it. it's here http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=548975
Stigger 04-06-07, 06:55 AM	Sure, no reason you couldn't so long as you could get past the problem of a high Spellcraft DC the spell would likely have. And that isn't exactly tough really... not easy either though. Only real difference though is that 10+ level spells used to come with normal wizardly level progression, whereas Epic spells only come with advanced knowledge of the arcane, and how many you can cast is dependent on just how much you know, not what level you manage to get to, though that can influence the matter quite a bit with levels being tied to maximum ranks of the knowledge (arcana) skill. Add in the fact that casting epic spells requires a feat to access and it becomes fairly obvious that not each and every epic spellcaster will be able to cast them, regardless of their level, unless they invest that feat to them.
Eatable_Dice 04-06-07, 10:15 AM	Yes; Karsus has already done it. it's here http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=548975 I only found Mavinīs Worldweave, the bigger brother to Mavinīs Create Volcano. Plus, anybody has any information on who Mavin was?(despite being a really crazy guy?)
BrennonGoldeye 04-06-07, 10:28 AM	I have some beans of the Karsii actually. Well, they're refried beans of the Karsii, but I think they'll do. Ah, now the mystery of S'seth's Burrito of Doom makes a little more sense. Did LK even know you put that thing in his fridge?:D
Lord Karsus 04-06-07, 06:02 PM	Ah, now the mystery of S'seth's Burrito of Doom makes a little more sense. Did LK even know you put that thing in his fridge?:D -No, no he did not...:( What I donīt understand is the difference between Epic spells and 10+ level spells. -10+ Level Magic is exactly as it sounds- spells that were so powerful that they were classified as over level 9. They were cast by a single caster, and were extremely taxing to the Weave, since it drew all of it's power from it directly. -Epic Magic is, well, Epic. It has the power to shatter mountains, cause fireballs to rain down from the heavens, and all that kind of good stuff. This form of magic draws from the Weave, but it also draws power from the caster himself (Draining EXP). Because of this, it is less taxing to the Weave, and Mystra allows the use of it. Multiple casters can also join together in casting a joint spell that is less taxing on the individual, since there are two or more contributers. -Make sense?
lavekkia 04-06-07, 06:58 PM	I only found Mavinīs Worldweave, the bigger brother to Mavinīs Create Volcano. Plus, anybody has any information on who Mavin was?(despite being a really crazy guy?) Page 4, post numbeer 97. And Mavin was... well... an arcanist :D :D Seriously; if there's some info it's in Netheril Empire Of Magic and maybe How The mighty are (have) fallen. Aside from old Arcane Age supplements Mavin got no attention.
boards 04-06-07, 07:05 PM	How would you explain using exp points in a novel situation? Maybe damaging your body or sould so that your no longer capable of channeling (for want of a better word) so much magic without killing yourself?
ShadezofDis 04-06-07, 07:07 PM	How would you explain using exp points in a novel situation? Maybe damaging your body or sould so that your no longer capable of channeling (for want of a better word) so much magic without killing yourself? It is general flavor, that is not backed by game rules, that spell casting tires the spell caster. The way to explain the exp drain would be to desribe. . . perhaps some agony, as they feel their lifeforce pulled out of them in order to power the magic. Something like that anyhow.
Lord Karsus 04-06-07, 07:12 PM	How would you explain using exp points in a novel situation? Maybe damaging your body or sould so that your no longer capable of channeling (for want of a better word) so much magic without killing yourself? -Lifeforce, age, hardiness, constitution (the latter two can also be used for CON based stuff as well, obviously)
Krash 04-06-07, 10:15 PM	You know, the more I read and think about this 10th level/epic magic - 2E/3E changeover problem, the more I think the game designers should have said that the advent of the 3E rules changes meant that there were no longer such a thing as level 10+ spells as 2e knew them. What the Netherese had cast were epic magics. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. That sure would have saved a bunch of bandwidth. If I had my time on LEoF again, that's what I would have suggested. -- George Krashos
GothicDan 04-06-07, 10:20 PM	So how would Mystra's ban have been explained, and the subsequent reasoning why Toril has not been able to reach quite the same level of magical might again? Perhaps banning on Epic spells over a certain DC?
Grandmaster_Kane 04-06-07, 10:46 PM	where can i download the Encylopia arcana?
Krash 04-07-07, 12:57 AM	So how would Mystra's ban have been explained, and the subsequent reasoning why Toril has not been able to reach quite the same level of magical might again? Perhaps banning on Epic spells over a certain DC? Mystra's Ban would have been simplified to apply only to the spell Karsus' Avatar and any attempts to duplicate it. As for the magical might thing, I would have explained it by saying that the mythallars gave Netheril's wizards heightened powers and abilities (in game terms this may have translated into saying that any members of the Netherese Arcanist PrC received a +20 inherent bonus to their spellcraft skill when within the area of the mythallar's power or somesuch). This would have also served to iron out the incongruities of that PrC which clearly apply to epic magic but date to a period when those spellcasters were supposedly not using epic magic. These are just my musings of course. Feel free to pick them apart.:) -- George Krashos
MaskedOne 04-07-07, 01:13 AM	I don't mind the distinction between 10+ and epic much. It's an amusing historical sidenote that could theoretically be made into something more. The only bit of Netherese magic that I'd truly love to see retconned is the least likely to be because it would involve 3.5 arcane age supplement. Namely I despised utterly and completely the enforced specialization of arcanists.
ShadezofDis 04-07-07, 02:09 AM	You know, the more I read and think about this 10th level/epic magic - 2E/3E changeover problem, the more I think the game designers should have said that the advent of the 3E rules changes meant that there were no longer such a thing as level 10+ spells as 2e knew them. What the Netherese had cast were epic magics. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. That sure would have saved a bunch of bandwidth. If I had my time on LEoF again, that's what I would have suggested. -- George Krashos I like the whole "ban on 'true 10th+ level magic'. I like to think about, theorize about and imagine the possibilities of what such a ban is and does. I just find it fun and my fun isn't a waste of bandwidth to me :)
lavekkia 04-07-07, 07:41 AM	You know, the more I read and think about this 10th level/epic magic - 2E/3E changeover problem, the more I think the game designers should have said that the advent of the 3E rules changes meant that there were no longer such a thing as level 10+ spells as 2e knew them. What the Netherese had cast were epic magics. That's it. Nothing more. Nothing less. That sure would have saved a bunch of bandwidth. If I had my time on LEoF again, that's what I would have suggested. -- George Krashos That can't work: Spells like Proctiv Breach Crystal Sphere, Mavin Worldweave and such were not designed to be cast near a mythallar. And aside from that the majority of Netherese 10th+ spells have a spellcraft DC over 280 (WITH heavy houseruling and ad hoc mitigating factors). Another point is that epic magic has a very variable difficulty that can't fit in the level progression (even considering the fact that spell level progression is not linear) A discussion about this is here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=548975 together with some Netherese converted epic spells
Stigger 04-07-07, 07:49 AM	I prefer the 10+ level spell interpretation myself... makes us work a bit harder to recreate some of those old Netherese spells via epic magic and gets the creativity flowing nicely.
lavekkia 04-07-07, 08:10 AM	I prefer the 10+ level spell interpretation myself... makes us work a bit harder to recreate some of those old Netherese spells via epic magic and gets the creativity flowing nicely. VERY much harder :) I have yet to figure out how replicate Proctiv Seal Crystal Sphere; in one year i found no workarounds :)
ShadezofDis 04-07-07, 10:27 AM	That can't work: George is a clever man, you'd be amazed at what he can make work. :) I probably wouldn't like such a retcon but if it had an explination and the explination covered most things then I'd accept it. I mean, might not happen in my home game but I wouldn't cry foul. :)
Tergiver 04-07-07, 11:06 AM	I guess I'm an outlier; in my campaign, Mystra's ban covered epic magic (because that's what the Netherese were using). I don't see the Epic ban as the absolute that the 10th+ ban is in canon. Elven high magic still works because Corellon has a tie into the weave that predates Mystra, but it's more difficult post-Netheril because she didn't like it. (That would imply that the Mystra->Midnight change opened up some more holes in the Ban...) To me, that sort of explained why there were so many high-level mages running around the Realms - it's really hard for one epic mage to kill another using non-epic spells. The Realms may only look high-magic because it's a relatively safe place for epic mages to hang out and research... Epic Realms mages can still cast epic spells, they just have to sidestep for a little while to do it: the plane of shadow, the Astral, J. Random Demiplane, etc. The difference between level-based and epic spells doesn't bother me a lot, but what if the "epic Netherese arcanist" class could use their Improved Spell Capacity slots to cast epic spells of less than a certain DC? Another "why the Netherese were better" idea - in my campaign, I stole another GM's idea of capping Epic bonuses at twice non-epic bonuses. If that wasn't true during the age of Netheril, an item that grants a +100 competence bonus to Spellcraft is only 10 million gold. You could house rule a +100 luck bonus to Spellcraft at the same price, and for the price of 20 million GP those Spellcraft DC 280 spells are now effectively DC 80.
MaZa 04-07-07, 03:40 PM	For some true 10th+ spells, you can find them in the Netheril: Empire of Magic set, which is a free download here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads. Sweet. :drool: It's a pity that you can't cast those except as ridiculously difficult epic spells.. Though admittedly, they would be kinda cheesy.
Stigger 04-07-07, 04:55 PM	VERY much harder :) I have yet to figure out how replicate Proctiv Seal Crystal Sphere; in one year i found no workarounds :) Ward seed, against spelljamming helms entering an area. Sacrifice of the SJ helm should be a nice mitigating factor to offset the huge modifiers affecting an entire crystal sphere permanently would incur... plus lots of other mitigating factors to get that down to a manageable level. Feat and skill requirements seem like decent ways to get it down a bit, additional spellcasters, backlash, casting time. If you haven't seen it yet, take a look at Karsus the Mad's epic spellcasting thread on factors and mitigating factors. Made the process so much more straightforward for me, and took the spells from impossible to easily doable in just a few hours of looking over and printing out a hardcopy of the post.
Eatable_Dice 04-07-07, 11:59 PM	-No, no he did not...:( -10+ Level Magic is exactly as it sounds- spells that were so powerful that they were classified as over level 9. They were cast by a single caster, and were extremely taxing to the Weave, since it drew all of it's power from it directly. -Epic Magic is, well, Epic. It has the power to shatter mountains, cause fireballs to rain down from the heavens, and all that kind of good stuff. This form of magic draws from the Weave, but it also draws power from the caster himself (Draining EXP). Because of this, it is less taxing to the Weave, and Mystra allows the use of it. Multiple casters can also join together in casting a joint spell that is less taxing on the individual, since there are two or more contributers. -Make sense? It strikes me as a nice way to make them different. This way, Mr. Netherese Wizard, if so inclined, would be able to cast his 10th level spell as many times a day as he could and seemed fit. Taxating on the weave as you have said, and different from Epic Spellcasting, which requires much effort.
MaZa 04-08-07, 07:43 AM	Btw, I wonder if there's an artifact which could be used to access raw magic to bypass Mystra or something like that.. :drool: Probably not, though, as that would be cheese with capital letters..
Eatable_Dice 04-08-07, 01:16 PM	If Mask polymorphed himself into a sword, why couldnīt a "dead" god morph himself into such artifact? Personally, I vote for Leira. Now that was a nice goddess! Imagine 10th level illusions!
Lord Karsus 04-08-07, 06:14 PM	It strikes me as a nice way to make them different. This way, Mr. Netherese Wizard, if so inclined, would be able to cast his 10th level spell as many times a day as he could and seemed fit. Taxating on the weave as you have said, and different from Epic Spellcasting, which requires much effort. -I like it too. If Mask polymorphed himself into a sword, why couldnīt a "dead" god morph himself into such artifact? -Well, the simple reason is, well, they're dead. ;) Imagine 10th level illusions! -Life is a 10th Level Illusion...
lavekkia 04-08-07, 07:41 PM	-I like it too. -Well, the simple reason is, well, they're dead. ;) -Life is a 10th Level Illusion... a living sentient illusion... an excellent idea for an epic spell :evillaugh :evillaugh
Lord Karsus 04-08-07, 10:50 PM	a living sentient illusion... an excellent idea for an epic spell :evillaugh :evillaugh -That's why I'm THE Archmage. :thumbsup:
Alediran 04-09-07, 03:09 PM	So how would Mystra's ban have been explained, and the subsequent reasoning why Toril has not been able to reach quite the same level of magical might again? Perhaps banning on Epic spells over a certain DC? I would said that the ban wasn't on the spell but on the way of doing it, those spells more powerfull that 9th level had two ways of casting, Epic Magic (True Dweomers) and 10th+ magic. Mystra's ban was a ban to the 10th+ way of casting wich drained all energy from her but had no impact on the caster. That leaves Epic magic still working like always. Spells like Proctive's Move Mountain can still be cast, but now the price on the caster is heavy. Most casters would never pay the price for that magic if it means sharing the knowledge/power with others, weakening themselves, or even a permanent death. That would be the reason why the level of magical might Netheril had was never reached, because nobody wanted to pay the price. This also works with Elven High Magic, specificaly that famous line saying Mystra's ban never applied to elves, because the actual spells weren't lost, just 10th+ way of casting wich elves never used, and the ritual way of High Magic is supported by 3ed Epic Magic, it may only need a couple of mitigating factors for the DC (one of them could use the table of awfull things that happened to High Mages from 2ed). It's only a half-cooked idea made in a half-minute during work, with an exam tomorrow (easy one but it's still an exam), but it's a starting point to clean some old disasters caused by Netheril's Boxed Set.
Stigger 04-09-07, 05:35 PM	True, that Netheril boxed set was really disastrous for a lot of the stuff it tossed out there...
The_Shaman 04-09-07, 06:48 PM	Corellon predating Mystra? Not in my Realms, that's for sure. I typically imagine epic spells less as "spells" and more as rituals that can accomplish what even an archmage can not accomplish with a single spell. Hence, they are long, tiresome, dangerous, and generally world-shattering.
Lord Karsus 04-09-07, 08:57 PM	Corellon predating Mystra? Not in my Realms, that's for sure. -If the commonly accepted creation myth is true, then Mystra would predate Corellon Larethian in Realmspace. But, because Corellon Larethian is a powerful, multispheric deity, I'd say that Corellon Larethian is an older deity than Mystra, in general.
BrennonGoldeye 04-09-07, 09:19 PM	-If the commonly accepted creation myth is true, then Mystra would predate Corellon Larethian in Realmspace. But, because Corellon Larethian is a powerful, multispheric deity, I'd say that Corellon Larethian is an older deity than Mystra, in general. <best Brooklyn accent> Yeah!
Lord Karsus 04-09-07, 09:22 PM	<best Brooklyn accent> Yeah! -Eh, not exactly. It's more of a 'Yea'. The 'H' is silent.
BrennonGoldeye 04-09-07, 09:34 PM	Sorry, just consider it Brooklynese with an elven accent. :elf:
The_Shaman 04-10-07, 01:53 PM	Beware the Brooklyn elves! ;) Still, as far as magic on Toril is concerned, I'd be surprised if Corellon could give his chosen a relaxation of the Ban. It's not like elven mages haven't wrought destruction that could be compared with anything human or other mages have done.
ShadezofDis 04-10-07, 02:10 PM	Beware the Brooklyn elves! ;) Still, as far as magic on Toril is concerned, I'd be surprised if Corellon could give his chosen a relaxation of the Ban. It's not like elven mages haven't wrought destruction that could be compared with anything human or other mages have done. Except for the Big K that is. I'm under contract though, so I might be bias ;)
Lord Karsus 04-10-07, 02:42 PM	Beware the Brooklyn elves! ;) -Don't worry- Brooklyn Elves are not dangerous. They just sit around and make pizza. Wait, wasn't that Brooklyn Faeries? Ah, no matter...
The_Shaman 04-10-07, 06:21 PM	Except for the Big K that is. I'm under contract though, so I might be bias ;) Well, the falling cities were not a part of the plan I believe. Aside from that, it could have been a lot worse. BTW, is there any idea what happened to Karsus after that? I've heard some rumors about his body, but it'd be more than a bit strange if his soul just, er, disappeared somewhere after getting a taste of the Weave itself.
Lord Karsus 04-10-07, 07:38 PM	BTW, is there any idea what happened to Karsus after that? I've heard some rumors about his body, but it'd be more than a bit strange if his soul just, er, disappeared somewhere after getting a taste of the Weave itself. -I'm right here. After my soul was sundered into three aspects, two of them (myself and KtM) found themselves bound to serve these boards.
Stigger 04-11-07, 01:27 AM	LK and KtM are here to serve the boards? Great, I'll have a cup of coffee, heavy sugar, milk, thanks, that's a good lad. :D
BrennonGoldeye 04-11-07, 07:58 AM	<brings Stigger his coffee>:rolleyes: Hey, what can I say, being a Hand isn't all pwning of Xuns and buttercups.;)
Karsus the Mad 04-11-07, 08:00 AM	a living sentient illusion... an excellent idea for an epic spell One step ahead of you;) I have Karsus's multiplicity, which creates one living, sentient, shadow double per caster level:P -That's why I'm THE Archmage. :waits: Well, the falling cities were not a part of the plan I believe. Aside from that, it could have been a lot worse. BTW, is there any idea what happened to Karsus after that? I've heard some rumors about his body, but it'd be more than a bit strange if his soul just, er, disappeared somewhere after getting a taste of the Weave itself. Karsus's physical body is a giant red stone butte in the Dire Wood. His soul is tripartite, 1/3 in the butte, 1/3 in the Karsestone, and 1/3 in a stone golem in a temple built ontop of the butte. Then there's Karsus's divine essence (yes, it hasn't been picked up by anyone) which is floating in the astral. LK and KtM are here to serve the boards? Great, I'll have a cup of coffee, heavy sugar, milk, thanks, that's a good lad. :whatsthis
Stigger 04-11-07, 08:26 AM	Ah, Bren, such a good little helper you are. Thanks :D
BrennonGoldeye 04-11-07, 08:41 AM	No problem. Just call me the "helping" Hand. KtM, need a warm up?
Stigger 04-11-07, 08:45 AM	So I don't get to call you Mother Fist then? Wonders if anyone's actually going to get that reference...
Karsus the Mad 04-11-07, 10:11 AM	No problem. Just call me the "helping" Hand. KtM, need a warm up? Yes please. Thank ye deary:whatsthis
BrennonGoldeye 04-11-07, 10:19 AM	So I don't get to call you Mother Fist then? Wonders if anyone's actually going to get that reference... Please don't. I havn't been a mom since that whole Girdle fiasco. Nice reference though, good times....
Stigger 04-11-07, 10:21 AM	I just don't want to know about any Girdle fiascos... at least not until after I've slept.
Lord Karsus 04-11-07, 11:22 AM	LK and KtM are here to serve the boards? Great, I'll have a cup of coffee, heavy sugar, milk, thanks, that's a good lad. :D -We also provide free legal council. We're planning to go into private practice one day- the law offices of Karsus, Karsus and Karsus. :waits: -I'm just as much an aspect of Karsus as you are. Thus, I can say that. :P I just don't want to know about any Girdle fiascos... at least not until after I've slept. -It'll still be unsettling when you wake up...
The WarOverlord 04-11-07, 11:30 AM	-Can G-d create a rock that He cannot lift? . By first making a large rock, then assuming a weak form that can't lift the large rock of course. Of course being insubstantial means there is no form to to physically "lift" the rock in the first place (assuming you are speaking of the consciousness that "all existence" is a part and whim of)
Lord Karsus 04-11-07, 11:46 AM	By first making a large rock, then assuming a weak form that can't lift the large rock of course. -It's a well-known philosophical argument dealing with omnipotence. G-d is omnipotent, all-powerful, so he can do anything. Can He create a rock that He cannot lift? Well, if he can't lift it, then He is not omnipotent, since there is now something He cannot do. But, if he can lift it, then He is still not omnipotent, since He was not able to create a rock He could not lift. Follow? :) Of course being insubstantial means there is no form to to physically "lift" the rock in the first place (assuming you are speaking of the consciousness that "all existence" is a part and whim of) -In the past G-d has taken to incarnate manifestations (the flaming bush, for example), so, for the argument's sake, we just assume that G-d manifests as something physical, that can interact accordingly, though there is nothing barring an incorporal G-d from interacting with the physical world.
ShadezofDis 04-11-07, 12:08 PM	-We also provide free legal council. We're planning to go into private practice one day- the law offices of Karsus, Karsus and Karsus. If we work real hard can it be "Karsus, Karsus, Karsus and Hands"? ;)
Lord Karsus 04-11-07, 12:16 PM	If we work real hard can it be "Karsus, Karsus, Karsus and Hands"? ;) -Aw, why not. It'll be easier to sell the "Law Office of K, K, K and H", rather than the "Law Officer of K, K & K". ;)
ShadezofDis 04-11-07, 12:20 PM	-Aw, why not. It'll be easier to sell the "Law Office of K, K, K and H", rather than the "Law Officer of K, K & K". ;) :rofl: Too good :D
feraltibbit 04-11-07, 12:28 PM	I recently realized that spells didn't just end at 9th level - you just have to be really powerful to cast higher than that! Then I happened to be reading some pages of a page entitled "The Grand History of the Forgotten Realms" (http://www.geonomicon.com). Specifically, I was reading "The History of Netheril." (http://www.geonomicon.com/chronology/temporum/netheril.htm) In this document, it lists Karsus's Avatar as the only 12th level spell known to exist. So that made me wonder.... I'm assuming (although this could be totally wrong) that Karsus is the only one to have ever been able to cast this single 12th level spell. So what other famous (or not so famous) NPCs can cast these 10th and 11th level spells? And for that matter, just what are these 10th and 11th level spells? I'm pretty familiar with 1-9, but not any higher. I suggest looking in the Epic Handbook. They may not be called "level 10 spells", but they sure pack a HELL of a wallop!
Lord Karsus 04-11-07, 04:32 PM	I suggest looking in the Epic Handbook. They may not be called "level 10 spells", but they sure pack a HELL of a wallop! -As was mentioned, Epic spells are not the same as 10+ spells.
Ramenth 04-11-07, 04:51 PM	Jus out of curiocity, was the bush really an incarnate? I thought it was something closer to a speaking stone or the like. I wasn't aware he was actually the bush, just that he was talking out of it.
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 12:06 AM	Jus out of curiocity, was the bush really an incarnate? I thought it was something closer to a speaking stone or the like. I wasn't aware he was actually the bush, just that he was talking out of it. -I don't know, I wasn't there. ;) :P -But, it was just an example to show that G-d can, does, and has interacted with the physical world.
noon261 04-19-07, 09:24 PM	I think I found a possible way to cast 10th and 11th level spells... so to speak In the AD&D book the north page 80(downloadable in the download section) it mentions the Chardalyn which are spell storing stones that can keep spells in them for extended periods of time. What if someone would find a ancient Netherize vault containing hundreds of those stones and some of which containing 10+ spells, Mystra would not be able to prevent the spells from happening since they have already been cast. the question remains would it tax Mystra now or did it just drain Mystral.
Lord Karsus 04-19-07, 10:51 PM	I think I found a possible way to cast 10th and 11th level spells... so to speak... -Interesting idea... the question remains would it tax Mystra now or did it just drain Mystral. -It would drain Mystra. 10+ Level spells were draining to the Weave. Back then, Mystryl was the Weave. Now, Mystra is the Weave. Same thing, different incarnation.
Stigger 04-20-07, 03:04 AM	I must have missed something somewhere, but where does it say that 10th+ level spells are draining to the Weave? I've looked for that little tidbit to see if I can wrangle some strange interpretation out of it, but seem to be retarded about finding it...
Karsus the Mad 04-20-07, 04:49 AM	I must have missed something somewhere, but where does it say that 10th+ level spells are draining to the Weave? I've looked for that little tidbit to see if I can wrangle some strange interpretation out of it, but seem to be retarded about finding it... It doesn't actually state such. People are probably coming to that conclusion based on the statements that Netheril's gluttony of magic was draining on the Weave, and that Mystryl was pretty much overtaxed in constantly repairing it. However, that's hardly indictive of 10th+ magic being the drain, as even during the height of Netheril, such magic was relatively rare, and even then only the spells that lasted any lengthy time period would be a strain. It was most likely the sheer volume of lesser magics (0-9th) in virtually continuous use. Thay and Halruaa prolly put a hefty strain on the Weave in modern times as well. Oh, and the mythallars. They dipped directly into the Weave, so I would bet they put a nice strain also. Just my opinion of course:)
Stigger 04-20-07, 07:36 AM	But wouldn't the active use of so much magic just make her stronger? That would stand to reason I think, given that the more mages out there who use the weave enhance her power... so wouldn't the items they create that used the weave add to the effect. If it were such a drain, why would she tell the Simbul to back off of Thay if creating magical items is a drain on her... seems like a fairly feeble excuse as to why she'd be limited in 'power', to me at least. Its not like anythings ever been stated that there's a finite amount of magical energy out there... at least not that I've ever seen. Can't fathom why it would follow some 'scientific principle' on amounts of available energy... On the other hand, it is good to know that I didn't miss something afterall. :D
Lord Karsus 04-20-07, 10:21 AM	But wouldn't the active use of so much magic just make her stronger? -Think of her like a slowly self-charging battery. Sure, it will always recharge itself to full power after being used, but when large volumes of energy are drained from it, it takes longer to recharge. Now, repeat, as lots of arcanists wielded such magics, along with Mythallars, and the whole nine yards.
ShadezofDis 04-20-07, 10:30 AM	Hmmm. . . I swear I read that 10th+ spells were excessively draining to the Weave. . . I mean, I've read it on here about 10 dozen times but I thought I read it in a sourcebook too ;) Anyhow, I'm still a big fan of preserver/defiler magic acting as a stand in for the Weave (and the greater "sentient life draining" magic for true 10+ spells or the "sun magic" for true 10+ spells) working in the Realms (and I hope to work a defiler into my FR game, especially since there's a Paladin of Mystra, a Druid, a Wood Elf Ranger to be horribly offended by the defiling ways :cool: ) Of course, getting from Dark Sun to FR is one of the harder tasks in the multiverse but I'm sure that more than enough Dark Sun casters have tried to flee that hell hole that one or two must have succeeded ;)
noon261 04-20-07, 01:19 PM	But would it be possible to find ancient wands of move mountain and wouldn't the use of such a wand/'s greatly tilt the scales of power?
Karsus the Mad 04-20-07, 01:34 PM	But would it be possible to find ancient wands of move mountain and wouldn't the use of such a wand/'s greatly tilt the scales of power? Not likely since wands aren't capable of holding such spells:P Even if they could, I'd say it wouldn't tip any scales, if such an item would even function that is. The casting of a single 10th level spell by a single individual isn't enough to give anyone a clear and definite advantage, at least not longterm, IMO.
Stigger 04-20-07, 05:37 PM	-Think of her like a slowly self-charging battery. Sure, it will always recharge itself to full power after being used, but when large volumes of energy are drained from it, it takes longer to recharge. Now, repeat, as lots of arcanists wielded such magics, along with Mythallars, and the whole nine yards. Seems like way too mortal of a scale of things to me... I prefer the idea that its capable of producing infinite amounts of energy. Any other way strikes me too much of some lame attempt to 'balance' the power of magic. I can see limits as to what a mortal could channel through their body in terms of magical energy, but the idea that some mortal could channel enough energy, with one possible obviously glaring exception, to drain the whole weave throughout Realmspace just strikes me as ludicrous.
boards 04-20-07, 07:23 PM	I agree on the draining the weave seems abit mad. I prefer the idea that the weave has has its own precise shape (hence the term weave), and that each spell pulls that shape to its own purpose. Small spells only pull it a small distance and it quickly snaps back it shape. 10th level spells on the other hand pull it a long way out of shape and takes much longer to go back to normal. Its this pulling out of shape that eventually creates wild magic, dead magic etc areas. Consistent use of 10th/11th level spells pulled it so much that Mystryl was spending so much time repairing it. Fits better with the whole energy cant be destroyed only changed idea (yes I know real world physics/science is different to FR science).
BrennonGoldeye 04-20-07, 09:26 PM	Seems like way too mortal of a scale of things to me... I prefer the idea that its capable of producing infinite amounts of energy. Any other way strikes me too much of some lame attempt to 'balance' the power of magic. I can see limits as to what a mortal could channel through their body in terms of magical energy, but the idea that some mortal could channel enough energy, with one possible obviously glaring exception, to drain the whole weave throughout Realmspace just strikes me as ludicrous. What mortal ever even tinily slightly threatened such an act? Karsus was a hacker, and I say that with all due respect. He interuppted M1's connection to the Weave. He laid in a breaker and rerouted the flow. Without a doubt the greatest achievment of any single individual spellcaster in FR history. That's also why the spell failed. It didn't provide a transformer capable of handling the flow. To keep the whole system(mortal use of magic) from being blown to bits she cut off the source of the power. I suppose She thought is was a better idea to throw Her portfolios into the air than leave Her FR crispy. :) Anyway, how is that flu Stig, tell me its subsiding.:) :tissue:
Lord Karsus 04-20-07, 09:42 PM	Seems like way too mortal of a scale of things to me... -I agree, but I was just trying to make it as simple as possible. Here's what really happens, but since you're all mortals, you might not fully understand. Here goes: ŋ§Šĩ°°ωљЩכשפס٤٪ڴ۩ۖ╢↔♫ Anyway, how is that flu Stig, tell me its subsiding.:) :tissue: -Yeah. If you're still not feeling 100% better, have some Chicken Soup. :)
BrennonGoldeye 04-20-07, 10:01 PM	ŋ§Šĩ°°ωљЩכשפס٤٪ڴ۩ۖ╢↔♫ See, for some reason I always had some trouble with that ڴ. For the record I still think <{' would have worked. :P
Lord Karsus 04-20-07, 11:40 PM	See, for some reason I always had some trouble with that ڴ. For the record I still think <{' would have worked. :P -I agree, but, hey, I didn't make the language up...
Stigger 04-21-07, 01:52 AM	Not any language I'm familiar with... :P Still feel crap, but less crap than before. Can sleep through half the night at least, so that' good. :D
Karsus the Mad 04-21-07, 06:38 AM	I prefer the idea that its capable of producing infinite amounts of energy. Why?:) The Weave is Mystra, Mystra is the Weave. Mystra is not omnipotent or of unlimited power, so why should the Weave be any different?:)
Stigger 04-21-07, 08:43 AM	Well, I didn't mean that in a absolute literal sense, more in a practical sense, simply so much power that for all intents and purposes it would certainly seem that way to limited mortal perception. In otherwords you, couldn't pull so much power in a single spell that you'd be able to seriously harm or drain the Weave. Sure you can damage the weave with spell battles, but I see that more as conflicting magical energies mingling that we never meant to be mingled and having a bad effect, rather than the idea of pulling so much power that you blew it out locally. I could see Mythallars having a draining effect, but any time you get an artifact level item involved things get a little out of whack, much less multiple instances of them. Though to be honest, I don't have a problem with Mystra or the Weave having near-unlimited power in a lot of respects... if everyone on Toril was a spellcaster who used the Weave, I don't see how that couldn't be very near the case of the matter. More users of the weaves, the more creative with it they are, the more often they employ it, the more power she has at her disposal to fill that need and desire... I'm not really a big fan of the idea of the 'laws of physics' applying to magic or the weave to be honest. I like my magic to be Magic damnit! :tongue: :D
Lord Karsus 04-21-07, 07:30 PM	Not any language I'm familiar with... :P -The language is simply called "₪", and it is mostly spoken by the З·ӘטŠ from ąąĩשּׁאַﮉ►7. Only on the north side, though... Still feel crap, but less crap than before. Can sleep through half the night at least, so that' good. :D -Like I said, have some chicken soup. It'll fix you all up. :)
The WarOverlord 04-22-07, 07:14 AM	Seems like way too mortal of a scale of things to me... I prefer the idea that its capable of producing infinite amounts of energy. Any other way strikes me too much of some lame attempt to 'balance' the power of magic. I can see limits as to what a mortal could channel through their body in terms of magical energy, but the idea that some mortal could channel enough energy, with one possible obviously glaring exception, to drain the whole weave throughout Realmspace just strikes me as ludicrous. Well no, Mystra, who is the Weave, is not the Source of Magic but the Circut breaker and capasitor for magic use so while the Ether is unlimited at it's Source, the goddling of magic and the interface she manages so the Wizards of Toril don't go blowing their world up does in fact have it's limits Oh, and if you ever played Ultima 7 there was a 9th Level Spell called Armageddon that basically killed everyone in the world but the Caster (A spell that was is supposedly kept, bought, and sold for prosperity but only a idiot would Actually cast....<re-load game>) Obviously no god of Magic disallowing such dangeruos spells.
Stigger 04-22-07, 08:56 AM	Sorry WarOverlord, you completely lost me there... For all intents and purposes, the Weave and Raw Magic are pretty much the same thing where mortals are concerned. Ignoring home brews and certain exceptions like Spellfire (and even then it depends largely on how you interpret Spellfire), the Weave is pretty much the only source mortals have for getting access to magic. Functionally, there is no real difference between Mystra and Raw Magic, at least from a mortals point of view. As to her limits, certainly on a divine scale there are distinct and definite limits, but I fail to see how it would have limits on a mortal scale. Not sure what the Ultima example was about though... not even vaguely seeing how that relates to the question at hand, considering it has nothing to do with the Realms.
Karsus the Mad 04-22-07, 10:48 AM	the Weave is pretty much the only source mortals have for getting access to magic. ? How so? It's the most popular and widely known, but far from the only method. As to her limits, certainly on a divine scale there are distinct and definite limits, but I fail to see how it would have limits on a mortal scale. Let's try a different approach. Think of it like her deny Weave ability. Each denial requires a bit of concentration on her part, which for a deity of her status, is virtually nothing, even for several hundred denials. However, since it does take some conentration and she isn't of unlimited concentration, it is reasonable to assume there's a limit to her ability to concentrate. Whether it be a billion or a trillion individual denials, it's still a limit. Mystra constantly repairs damage to the Weave that casting any spell causes (minor frizzle there, minor loose strand there, etc) and may be able to repair many instances of damage without 'breaking a sweat' so to speak, but like her concentration, her ability to repair the Weave isn't infinite (even if it seems that way to mortals) and has a limit. If enough loose strands are being created faster than she can repair them (which we know can happen: aka Netheril), you wind up with things such as dead magic and wild magic. With Netheril's glut of magic, their mythallars digging deep into the Weave syphoning off vasts amount of energy (ie: ripping instead of just pulling a strand), sheer abundance of magic, etc, Mystryl was having a bit of a time constantly re-weaving the Weave in those parts that were damaged. While she could probably have easily fixed any damage caused by Netheril, one must also take into account everyone else besides Netheril that also used vasts amount of magic. The Elves, Raumathar, Narfell, etc. That's just one continent of one planet. Mystryl/Mystra would have to repair any ripping or loose threads of the Weave throughout an entire infinite material plane. An infinite amount of pulling and ripping requires an infinite ability to repair said damage, which we already know Mystra cannot do. My own theory is that it's more than plausible that the Weave has often collapsed throughout history when the entity responsible for it has "burned out", and a new bed sheet brought in, only to slowly but inexorably unravel.
Stigger 04-22-07, 11:19 AM	But from what we know, Mystra doesn't have to deal with an infinite amount of pulling and ripping, simply that which occurs in Realmspace. That's pretty much been fairly decently defined. Whether or not she has other worlds she's responsible for is semi-irrelevant, since those would presumably be handled by different aspects of her, and so not a direct strain on her Torillian aspect. And I did acknowledge that she has limits, just not practical ones from a mortal perspective. Of course a set of extraordinary circumstances could cause her to lose pace with mortal events, particularly where Mythallars and Netheril were concerned it would seem, especially given some of their seeming contemporaries (though I'd have bet money that that was ret-conned from previous editions from what I knew of the timeline). But that's would seem to be an exception to the normal, if such a thing can be said, turns of event. So rather than facing that sort of crisis again (since if it happened once, it could happen again, and almost certainly would if certain enemies of hers had their say in the matter, Shar coming to mind most readily), she altered the way magic worked and put something of an insurance policy in place. Makes total sense to me. Excessive amounts of Wild and Dead Magic... those did not really 'count' since the tended to follow rather extraordinary RSEs that hardly constitute average events in the Weave or Mystra's management of it. Their creation is hardly a daily happening. With regards to her delegation of repairing them to her clergy (kinda pre-emptive on my part), I don't really see a point to having them if they don't go out and help, rather than relying on her to wave her hand and fix everything. It gets them a good reputation and gives them something 'showy' to do that garners good will with her target audience... would be stranger if she didn't delegate that one out, to me anyway. As to burning out, again, the times we know of that she 'burned out' were rather extraordinary circumstances rather than a standard day in the life of a goddess. I'm not even going to bring up the whole ToT issue, since it makes my head hurt just thinking of some of the nonsensical things that were supposed to have occurred during that period. Yet another reason I largely ignore novels...