Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AnthonyrNYCRPG 06-27-07, 01:02 AM	Hello everyone, I have a fun little question to ask you all. In your opinion who do you think is the most powerful person/creature in all of Faerun? Tell me his/her/its name and why do you think so. But please nothing like your own PCs, demi-gods, deities their avatars or the rest of that ilk. Look forward to hearing from everyone!! Take care, Anthony anthonyrnycrpg@yahoo.com
Anathema 06-27-07, 01:42 AM	I think I'm gonna go with the Sharn. Phaerimm are pretty nasty, too.
Forgotten_Warrior 06-27-07, 02:04 AM	Elminster, 'nuff said.
Zsych 06-27-07, 03:00 AM	Ioulaum, with his 41 caster levels, plus, his existence as an elder brain lich(so he has at least 20th level psionics on his side too)... not to mention again that he is a lich. (and if someone can find my old thread on the issue, it points out other benefits that he should reasonably have as a result of what he is... just having a brain made up of many other brains should be monstrously beneficial to a wizard, in so many ways) Plus, his extensive research and study of the Nether scrolls likely puts him above practically every mage around.
pokie 06-27-07, 03:29 AM	Zsych, please quote source. I wanna know... As for topic, I am gonna say whoever is the best of Sarrukh is the most powerful, certainly not the pathetic leaders of Sarrukh who are given stat-s in books. Terraseer should certainly be stronger than any of the Netherese wizards, given how he pretty much taught them everything and all.
Zsych 06-27-07, 03:35 AM	Lost Empires of Faerun(LEoF) has stuff on Ioulaum I believe. The Terraseer is level 35 IIRC. Ultimately, he just didn't have Ioulaum or Karsus' talent.... Not that Ioulaum has increased even one level as a wizard in the last 2000+ years(shameful... actually I blame the game designers for that). The Terraseer supported the Netherese because he saw in them the potential to succeed where his own race had failed magically(in defeating the Phaerimm). The Nether Scrolls may have been created by the Sarrukh, but in some ways, the Netherese took that knowledge beyond anything the Sarrukh had likely managed.
XHereticX 06-27-07, 08:01 AM	Hmm, tough, very tough. Either the Phaerimm, Sharn, Sarrukh, some very powerful dragon, or Larloch.
Mordayn 06-27-07, 08:46 AM	Well you have Daurgothoth (Found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20020327a), at CR 49 :eek: !!!!!!!!, and I would also believe that the Shrinsee would be exeedingly powerful if she was ever stated out.
sages 06-27-07, 10:05 AM	Ioulaum,Larloch,Elminster. Dragons Daurgothoth -CR 50 Nexus -CR 37 Mauzzkyl Jaezred- CR 40 Tchazzar- CR 40 Inferno- CR 40 My vote goes to Laroch and his undead army.
creyzi4zb12 06-27-07, 10:49 AM	Elminster.....Without a doubt.
ShadezofDis 06-27-07, 10:52 AM	Me. Because I could burn any of those pieces of paper. ;)
Tseramed 06-27-07, 11:08 AM	My vote goes to Laroch and his undead army. Exactly my thoughts here. I think Ed stated he was something like CR40 somewhere, I could be wrong though. I know a lot of other creatures are CR40 like Tchazar in Dragons of Faerun, etc. But a lich army is enough to make anybody think twice about attacking your flying fortress. I mean, the guy supposedly survived Netheril, how cool is that? ;) Meh, just kidding, I'm not a big fan of Larloch but IMO he must be one of the most powerful if not THE most powerful individual on Faerun. Not only because of his power but because of the power he wield and surround himself with. Anyway... this is gonna get rhetorical soon. :P
Marshal.Nemesis 06-27-07, 11:19 AM	most powerful being... well this question brings another question as well...WHERE?...you cant even think about putting a punch or spell to Asmodeus in 9th layer..as well as Talisid and his 5 companions in Elysium..challange rating defines nothing my DM bros..skills and area does..
Panurg 06-27-07, 11:29 AM	My vote goes for the Terraseer. Sarrukh are by far the most intelligent creatures of the realms considering the average Sarrukh (without class levels) as presented in Serpent Kingdoms has an intelligence score of 30!! Arthindol should easily be around Int 50 or so using wishes, and raising his Int through level advancement. The average human has an Int score of what? ... 10 or something like that. Asuming Iolaum was a paragon Human he started with an 18 to 20 (in 2ed terms: genius, which is quite high but nothing compared to 30). So perhaps Io is the higher level spell caster, but he for sure is not the more effective spellcaster. Not to mention the experience Arthindol must have gained over the last 30.000!! (though he spend much of his time in hybernation, which could be seen as an advanced state of meditation;); though there is still the question: why must a lich sleep? perhaps because of boredom ... ) years. And with experience I don't mean XP but the knowledge and wisdom, the caution and the foresight of an ancient beeing. The knowledge of how to use a spell in his most effective way and how to overcome obstacles and enemies (not with brute force but wit and patience) that Io never even dreamed of. Even more than that: he is a brain in Jar.:rolleyes: Come on, where is the style? Arthindol wins. :ayyyy!: Concerning Larloch I'm not sure yet ... he is very, very, very powerful and influential. Even Thayan Archlichs come and and ask for advice ...:)
Tseramed 06-27-07, 11:30 AM	Of course, that's why I said Larloch in the realms. He surrounds himself with an army of Lich and resides in his floating crypt that's full of traps. And the guy isn't too shaby either... ;)
Boda 06-27-07, 12:34 PM	Elsminster, because he's Greenwood's creature or Drizzt, because he's RAS creature.
XHereticX 06-27-07, 03:23 PM	In Ed's Realms, Larloch is a lv 46. I know nothing on the material plane that tops that, cept' the few demigods that wander around in it. Well, if you are going to speak of munchkinized characters, then The Simbul.
GothicDan 06-27-07, 05:43 PM	Boda, Greenwood's writings on El in El in Hell makes it quite clear that he is not the most battle-powerful spellcaster in Faerun.
Zsych 06-27-07, 06:33 PM	Do you not see, Ioulaum's 41 levels + 20 psionic levels(needs a suitable PrC)? The ability to rip epic spells out of people's minds??? etc.
AnthonyrNYCRPG 06-27-07, 07:38 PM	How about these NPCs? I know they are not the most powerful but how would you rate these three? High Prince Telemont Tanthul Halaster Blackcloak Rhangaun of the Twisted Rune
Drew1369r 06-27-07, 08:42 PM	There is no most powerful in the realms... each has a counter to the other... Larloch has his massive levels and lich army but is held in check by the Harpers as well as if he does something bad a host of chosen would descend upon him. Ioulom can't move, so if you don't want to face him... stay away. Elminster has his hands in so many things that he doesn't sleep. The seven sisters are the same. Lord Shadow of the City of Shade from what I've been told here is his city is falling apart around. Halaster is dead.
OverworkedDm 06-27-07, 09:04 PM	Gothic Dan, I read El in Hell, and I would appreciate you refreshing my memory on the reference you speak of. Also, even though Elminster statistically is not the most powerful magic user you have to consider the source of his power. He was trained to spellcast by THE GODDESS OF MAGIC. Not to mention the fact that barring statistical power he has the ability to use silver and true spellfire, which both have been proven through greenwoods own writings to be the great equalizer, and that Larloch himself is terrified of them.
BrennonGoldeye 06-27-07, 09:42 PM	Me. Because I could burn any of those pieces of paper. ;) Yes, you could. :ahem: Elsminster, because he's Greenwood's creature or Drizzt, because he's RAS creature. :pbbbtt: How about these NPCs? I know they are not the most powerful but how would you rate these three? High Prince Telemont Tanthul Wiz20/Acm5/Sha10- Add 11 out of 12 "kids" in Epic Levels(Rivalen 33rd, Clariburnus 29th, Brennus 26th, Mattick & Vattick 25th, Yder 31st, Lamorak 26th, Dethud 23rd and Aglarel 28th). Add Shar and a common foe with the Harpers and stir. Not too shabby. Halaster Blackcloak Wiz25/Acm5- Brilliant and quite a wildcard. No backup besides Undermountain. :plotting: Rhangaun of the Twisted Rune Hmm, a Lich Wiz20/Acm5/Epic8 backed up by a group comprising a Lich Enc19, Lich Nec20/Acm5/Epic6, Lich Wiz20/Acm4/Epic3, Ancient Blue Dracolich, Tiefling lich Wiz20/Acm5/Epic2 and a Vampire Wiz20/Acm3. Thats just the top tier. Not near as united as Shade though.
GothicDan 06-27-07, 10:33 PM	I read El in Hell, and I would appreciate you refreshing my memory on the reference you speak of. Also, even though Elminster statistically is not the most powerful magic user you have to consider the source of his power. He was trained to spellcast by THE GODDESS OF MAGIC. Not to mention the fact that barring statistical power he has the ability to use silver and true spellfire, which both have been proven through greenwoods own writings to be the great equalizer, and that Larloch himself is terrified of them. He's basically mashed to a pulp by a banished Lord of the Nine. Not even a true Archdevil. And in that novel, his raw power is greatly overcast by that of the Simbul. And sure, Spellfire and Silverfire are good if you're going to be getting into direct conflict, but it's not too useful when Larloch's divined months ago that he can avoid being in its line of fire, and set up a number of magical traps, contingencies, clones, illusions, and diversions, to get around such fiery manifestations with childish ease. Any archmage worth his weight in salt isn't threatened by the idea of direct combat, toe-to-toe fire-slinging of any sort. Not when there are far more potent things out there like True Names.
Dr_Tough 06-28-07, 12:08 AM	Ao.
pokie 06-28-07, 01:05 AM	Lost Empires of Faerun(LEoF) has stuff on Ioulaum I believe. The Terraseer is level 35 IIRC. Ultimately, he just didn't have Ioulaum or Karsus' talent.... Not that Ioulaum has increased even one level as a wizard in the last 2000+ years(shameful... actually I blame the game designers for that). The Terraseer supported the Netherese because he saw in them the potential to succeed where his own race had failed magically(in defeating the Phaerimm). The Nether Scrolls may have been created by the Sarrukh, but in some ways, the Netherese took that knowledge beyond anything the Sarrukh had likely managed. I mostly agree, however EL of any sarrukh is much higher than their level. A 35th level sarrukh is going to be CR 56.
pokie 06-28-07, 01:07 AM	There is no most powerful in the realms... each has a counter to the other... Larloch has his massive levels and lich army but is held in check by the Harpers as well as if he does something bad a host of chosen would descend upon him. Ioulom can't move, so if you don't want to face him... stay away. Elminster has his hands in so many things that he doesn't sleep. The seven sisters are the same. Lord Shadow of the City of Shade from what I've been told here is his city is falling apart around. Halaster is dead. SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER no he is not; his spirit is alive - read whole campaign book, jeez.
pokie 06-28-07, 01:10 AM	Ao. dude, read $&*ing first topic - it says no gods, jeez some people are too lazy to read.
Dr_Tough 06-28-07, 01:25 AM	dude, read $&*ing first topic - it says no gods, jeez some people are too lazy to read. It says: "please nothing like your own PCs, demi-gods, deities their avatars or the rest of that ilk" I didn't make up Ao, TSR did. Eats, shoots and leaves.
pokie 06-28-07, 01:50 AM	Ao is an overgod, ie he is in that category.
Dr_Tough 06-28-07, 01:56 AM	Ao is an overgod, ie he is in that category. I don't think you understand what I'm getting at here. I read the OP as stating that PCs and deities are inadmissible if they are the creation of the poster. A deity that is the creation of TSR/WotC is admissible. Not that this thread is some sort of ground breaking scientific poll we're talking about here.
pokie 06-28-07, 02:25 AM	I don't think you understand what I'm getting at here. I read the OP as stating that PCs and deities are inadmissible if they are the creation of the poster. A deity that is the creation of TSR/WotC is admissible. Not that this thread is some sort of ground breaking scientific poll we're talking about here. Then I apologize for I did, in fact, misunderstand you. However, I think you misunderstood the original poster. It is common knowledge that Ao is the most powerful being. Logically, this post would be very boring then. What the poster meant, I believe, is that "deities, your pc-s, etc" are inadmissible not "your pc-s, deities." I.e. the adjective applies to pc-s...
Dr_Tough 06-28-07, 02:27 AM	Then I apologize for I did, in fact, misunderstand you. However, I think you misunderstood the original poster. It is common knowledge that Ao is the most powerful being. Logically, this post would be very boring then. What the poster meant, I believe, is that "deities, your pc-s, etc" are inadmissible not "your pc-s, deities." I.e. the adjective applies to pc-s... Indeed, in hindsight I believe the OP meant "no PCs of your own creation, deities, or their avatars.
sages 06-28-07, 07:43 AM	Encephalithid -elder brain psion 20, an incredibly powerful elder brain.
cato 06-28-07, 08:08 AM	If you read about the zulkir of necromancy in FR and do a bit of background reading on it it mentions szass tam acquiring 2 artifacts from the vast collection in larloch's possession. So my money is on Larloch, Telamont (city of shade leader) and Karsus if he is still alive. Something to think about here, is that since we are treating phaerimm and sharn as creatures, not much is mentioned about individuals in their population.
creyzi4zb12 06-28-07, 10:47 AM	Whattabout Karsus? Isn't he one of the strongest mages who ever lived out theere? I think he's even tougher than Elminster since he defied the gods.
captaincarot 06-28-07, 12:22 PM	Whattabout Karsus? Isn't he one of the strongest mages who ever lived out theere? I think he's even tougher than Elminster since he defied the gods. no he's a stone.
BrennonGoldeye 06-28-07, 12:31 PM	And 2 rather handsome aspects. :D
Alediran 06-28-07, 12:57 PM	And a floating rock on the Astral Plane.
creyzi4zb12 06-28-07, 02:56 PM	Yeah!! But Karsus WAS the best there was...and his Karsus's Avatar was pretty awesome.
Boda 06-28-07, 03:57 PM	neither is drizzt, ...but having a author at your side is a great way to beat anyone. Curious how everyone directly links levels with power. My archmage could just be a lab rat that spends eternity reseaching new spells and never ad to fight a battle on his life.That would hardly make a match for more militant mages(like Chosen, Shades, Runemasters,etc) around. Note that some of the most powerful individuals on faerun dont have many levels(ex: Open lord, Syl-pasha, Dragonking, etc)
pokie 06-28-07, 05:43 PM	neither is drizzt, ...but having a author at your side is a great way to beat anyone. Curious how everyone directly links levels with power. My archmage could just be a lab rat that spends eternity reseaching new spells and never ad to fight a battle on his life.That would hardly make a match for more militant mages(like Chosen, Shades, Runemasters,etc) around. Note that some of the most powerful individuals on faerun dont have many levels(ex: Open lord, Syl-pasha, Dragonking, etc) Good points all. However, this same researcher mage, upon reaching level 60ish can cast something of the power of Karsus's Avatar regardless of his otherwise meager combat skills. I use level as generic indicator of power, which is more or less reasonable. Open lord is hardly powerful - he is a head of a city... So what? Any of the local archmages can usurp any time, if they were interested, I bet. I haven't heard of the other guys you mentioned, but, imo, this post is about who can kick everybody else's ass better, not who rules larger/stronger realms :).
sages 06-28-07, 06:01 PM	CR is not everything( as shown in the Gromph\Lord Dyrr and many other duels).
pokie 06-28-07, 06:05 PM	CR is not everything( as shown in the Gromph\Lord Dyrr and many other duels). I didn't say it was everything - just a reasonable indicator. Who are these people you just mentioned?
Philalexandros 06-28-07, 06:32 PM	neither is drizzt, ...but having a author at your side is a great way to beat anyone. How droll... There's more than one case that demonstrates that you're wrong. In the Crystal Shard, Drizzt's duel with the barbarian chieftain of the Tribe of the Elk leaves him badly wounded and unconscious--albeit victorious. Left to his own devices, he would have likely perished. In Exile, Zaknafein gains the upper hand on Drizzt and is beating him before he wrests control of himself from Malice and throws himself in a lake of acid. In Sea of Swords, an enterprising elf uses clever combination of spells--including a Fire Shield--to drop Drizzt to near death even as she herself falls. Again, had it not been for his Companions, he would have died. In the Hunter's Blades series, Drizzt is wounded badly and forced to flee from a pair of Frost Giants; he is also soundly beaten (for all intents and purposes) by Obould. At any rate, I'm fairly sure Ed has gone on record saying that Larloch is the most powerful creature on Faerun (nevermind what his Lords of Darkness writeup says...).
pokie 06-28-07, 06:40 PM	What should his write up say?
XHereticX 06-28-07, 07:40 PM	And 2 rather handsome aspects. :D eww...:yuck:, too much Shounien-Ai Anyway, I am behind Larloch all the way, since that is what Ed said.
pokie 06-28-07, 09:07 PM	Elsminster, because he's Greenwood's creature or Drizzt, because he's RAS creature. Drizzt is pathetically easy to kill just like any fighter. Say Bob is a 9th level wizard with access to permanency and wall of force. Get the idea? Encase the good-for-nothing fisticuff in a wall of force; then make a permanent one around it. The silly brute will starve to death. :weep:
Boda 06-28-07, 10:02 PM	However, this same researcher mage, upon reaching level 60ish can cast something of the power of Karsus's Avatar regardless of his otherwise meager combat skills. I use level as generic indicator of power, which is more or less reasonable. Open lord is hardly powerful - he is a head of a city... So what? Any of the local archmages can usurp any time, if they were interested, I bet. I haven't heard of the other guys you mentioned, but, imo, this post is about who can kick everybody else's ass better, not who rules larger/stronger realms :). Sure, if the researcher mage is facing a less powerful oponent, but if two powerful mages face of, and one is an adventurer and the other is a reseacher, then experience will take it's toll. Power comes in many shapes.Any of the local archmages can, if the others dont stand against, if the open lord doesnt have acess to powerful items(even a lame guy is powerful with acess to specific items), is the mages in the city are totally free to do what they want? Note that individual stats only try to offer a guideline to personal combat capabilities, other forms of power(money, political influence, leverage in for of info, etc) arent so well stated. Again, the full extent of the mind capabilities of a said npc arent also stated (a low level npc can outsmart a high level), because the Intelligence, Charisma and Wisdom are stated in a combat mechanics pespective. That why low level npc can be found in powerful positions. There's surely higer level guys in the Rundeen that the current leaders, and the same goes to the lords of waterdeep, council of six, Shadow thieves leadership, Knights of the shield, Harpers, etc. As for the ass kicking, among the candidates( the larlochs, els, telamonts, shoons,etc), their magical power is closely matched, and it's not so much the amount of spells that makes the diference, but battle tactics, since most of then have acess to most know spells anyhow. Never read any discription of a spellbattle when spells ran out.
Lord Karsus 06-28-07, 10:12 PM	And 2 rather handsome aspects. :D -Indeed. Yeah!! But Karsus WAS the best there was...and his Karsus's Avatar was pretty awesome. -Indeed. -Yes, yes, I/We am/are the most powerful thing on Faerūn, asides for beings such as Ao, and Luminous Beings, and the like. -Might I suggest another potential powerhouse? Ka'Narlist...
pokie 06-28-07, 11:17 PM	Sure, if the researcher mage is facing a less powerful oponent, but if two powerful mages face of, and one is an adventurer and the other is a reseacher, then experience will take it's toll. Power comes in many shapes.Any of the local archmages can, if the others dont stand against, if the open lord doesnt have acess to powerful items(even a lame guy is powerful with acess to specific items), is the mages in the city are totally free to do what they want? Note that individual stats only try to offer a guideline to personal combat capabilities, other forms of power(money, political influence, leverage in for of info, etc) arent so well stated. Again, the full extent of the mind capabilities of a said npc arent also stated (a low level npc can outsmart a high level), because the Intelligence, Charisma and Wisdom are stated in a combat mechanics pespective. That why low level npc can be found in powerful positions. There's surely higer level guys in the Rundeen that the current leaders, and the same goes to the lords of waterdeep, council of six, Shadow thieves leadership, Knights of the shield, Harpers, etc. As for the ass kicking, among the candidates( the larlochs, els, telamonts, shoons,etc), their magical power is closely matched, and it's not so much the amount of spells that makes the diference, but battle tactics, since most of then have acess to most know spells anyhow. Never read any discription of a spellbattle when spells ran out. Nicely put, For the archmages example, they keep each other in check - politically powerful people are nothing without allies. Also access to truly powerful items is extremely limited. About stat-s, I completely agree. However, as for tactics, we are assuming the tactics are ideal given capabilities and a wizard who can cast a spell 1 level higher is clearly on top, etc...
Zsych 06-29-07, 02:09 AM	A 60th level researcher... very hard to find one would think, considering how far people like Ioulaum and Karsus got(although Karsus might well have been in his 80s, if KA or some other stupid thing hadn't happened). And if it were a 30th level formerly adventuring wizard against a 60th level guy, I wouldn't be too sure the lack of battle experience would make a difference. --- Just because we know next to nothing about Ioulaum's current actions, doesn't mean that he isn't a monstrous force to be reckoned with should you bother him. With his power, his body's native lack of mobility wouldn't matter. (and who knows what research the guy has been doing these past millenia) - Also, Larloch, with all of his artifacts and servants, I would consider far more dangerous than all the Chosen combined, if Larloch himself is actively on the war path(the dude can blow away the world). He's not contained by the Chosen or anyone, he's contained because he isn't interested in anything on Toril that we know about. Plus, attacking him means getting through all the magical defences and traps he has at home. -- Telamont unlike many of the other evils though, should be fairly active. I haven't read any of the recent books, but this guy should bring out the Chosen(and possibly give them a decent beating... I think a city with over a thousand mages, along with all the old stuff they have, and what stuff they can make, should give him more of a power base than any Chosen of Mystra.. and more knowledge to draw upon, for higher level magic than someone who has primarily researched himself like Elminster)
captaincarot 06-29-07, 02:35 AM	Yeah!! But Karsus WAS the best there was...and his Karsus's Avatar was pretty awesome. bah piffle, nowt is any use that turns you into a stone and leaves you stuck that way. i've got a fishing rod, once i work out how to get to that astral plane i'm gonna find him and stick it in his stony hands, at least he will have some thing nice to do then whiling away his time in his stony eternity, he can sit and fish.
Zsych 06-29-07, 03:30 AM	The spell was fine. He just had bad luck, choosing Mystryl, not knowing that the Weave was so dependent on Mystryl.. and then having Mystryl commit suicide on him.
sages 06-29-07, 04:03 AM	I didn't say it was everything - just a reasonable indicator. Who are these people you just mentioned? Gromph is the Archmage of Menzoberranzan Lord Dyrr- Lichdrow of House Agrach Dyrr-Extreamly strong and had lived for several millennia( At it is said so in the wikipedia). They fought in War of the Spider Queen. Lord dyrrs CR is higher at least by 5
Zsych 06-29-07, 04:19 AM	Sad that one, I was rooting for Dyrr that time. The guy needed a secondary phylactery for his soul to transfer into, when released from that one :) Maybe he can come back from the abyss(or from the home of whatever god he worshipped, and being very old, he could be old enough to predate the ban on worshipping any god but Lloth, among the wizards of the drow)
pokie 06-29-07, 12:36 PM	Gromph is the Archmage of Menzoberranzan Lord Dyrr- Lichdrow of House Agrach Dyrr-Extreamly strong and had lived for several millennia( At it is said so in the wikipedia). They fought in War of the Spider Queen. Lord dyrrs CR is higher at least by 5 Well then, clever tricks must have been involve; it is possible for neophytes to defeat a great wyrm, but when we talk about powerful people, I think the assumption is that their tactics would be perfect.
Fanatic66 06-29-07, 12:48 PM	Gromph is the Archmage of Menzoberranzan Lord Dyrr- Lichdrow of House Agrach Dyrr-Extreamly strong and had lived for several millennia( At it is said so in the wikipedia). They fought in War of the Spider Queen. Lord dyrrs CR is higher at least by 5 Wasn't Gromph getting beat badly. Dyrr banished him to the hafling plane (that was great), imprisoned him, and was about to kill him when he transformed into the colossus. If it wasn't for Triel, Gromph would have died. That's what I remember anyway but I haven't read the books in a while. PS: I'm going to ignore YourLosers, especially since he doesn't understand basic grammar rules (You're not your). :rolleyes: Stupid people. . .
Flicker 06-29-07, 02:44 PM	ok, here's one for the mix. The Magister. Why, 1 power, the Magister's ban, the ability to completely ban 1 spell Toril wide. Now I accept there are restrictions and I also accept that a lot of people are simply comparing raw spellcasting power, but the vagueness of the category leads to different answers. If we accept that CR is a measure of power by ability to cast more damaging spells and more of them it is really only that and I accept the point from the earlier poster that although your lvl 60 researcher has the potential to be brilliant, a more martially minded person could probably defeat them. Therefore can we establish what we posters want to define as 'powerful'? There doesn't have to be 1 rationale, it could be several, after all the highest CR mage isn't brilliant if he doesn't have his spells memorized?? Personally, I would define power, as the person most willing to use whatever power they have to influence whatever it is that they want to do that effects the most people. Therefore who has had the most impact Realmswide that has effected the most people? I'll give my thoughts later, interested in yours. Flicker
pokie 06-29-07, 02:47 PM	Powerful char is able to defeat less powerful char-s assuming both use best tactics. No allies other than those gained through class features alone (e.g. familiar) are allowed. Under this definition, no 30th level wizard can ever defeat 60th level researcher if the latter wins initiative and casts wrath of god or some such.
Boda 06-29-07, 07:29 PM	So, your assuming no permanent spells or contingencies are on at the start? Equal footing, sort of speak. I personally dont like the CR thing. In some cases, is very unreallistic. But ok, if magic is the ultimate weapon, and levels decide, then from humans (or former humans), Iolaum(the netherese brain lich,right), Shoon something(little lich turned elf girl) amd Telamont would be the main candidates. I always like to make a exception for Larloch and Halaster, since i got the feeling they were the wildcards of the mage landscape(netherese ruler still active, and a maybe imaskar survivor). But, when there are elfliches around(like the guy in the calim crystal), Sarrukh(they made nether scrolls), Phaerimm(kicked the nether guys), and even dragons(or dracoliches), it's really hard to understand how could a human win such competition. Longer lifespans and magical nature should tipp the balance.
Walls 06-29-07, 08:28 PM	A researcher wouldn't have offensive spells prepared. Everything he had would be towards research. A martially minded, adventuring/warring/etc mage of any lower rank would destroy a bookworm.
GothicDan 06-29-07, 11:19 PM	A researcher WOULD have defensive and utility spells prepared. Speaking as a physics student who has already handled some dangerous experiments, I don't think it really needs to be explained why.
Walls 06-30-07, 12:33 AM	Of course he would, obvious as you said. However, in game terms his stats would not be towards combat whatsoever, why would they be? I still contend he'd get worked. Look at it this way, alot of military officers went through school to do so and their combat experience is limited. A marine private has done tours of war areas. Who wins in straight up combat, the marine private or a general who has never had frontline combat?
pokie 06-30-07, 12:49 AM	A researcher wouldn't have offensive spells prepared. Everything he had would be towards research. A martially minded, adventuring/warring/etc mage of any lower rank would destroy a bookworm. A researcher is an unlikely to be an idiot. At worst, he would have greater teleport ready, to retreat and prepare. As I said, assume optimal tactics...
pokie 06-30-07, 12:50 AM	Of course he would, obvious as you said. However, in game terms his stats would not be towards combat whatsoever, why would they be? I still contend he'd get worked. Look at it this way, alot of military officers went through school to do so and their combat experience is limited. A marine private has done tours of war areas. Who wins in straight up combat, the marine private or a general who has never had frontline combat? General has no capacity to cast epic spell Wrath of God, but he can order artillery(nuke) strike on the soldier as equivalent.
GothicDan 06-30-07, 12:53 AM	Your typical 'front line soldiers' are the ones that die the most often. The ones that live the longest are the Archmages who avoid combat and work through pawns, long-distance spells, long-lasting enchantments, through multiple layers of intrigue, etc. The most powerful Realms archmages are one part politician and one part scientist. They're the ones that make, order, and launch the nukes and the missiles and build the jets and the tanks. The front-line guys are cannon fodder.
Walls 06-30-07, 01:24 AM	Why would you nuke a guy right beside you?
GothicDan 06-30-07, 01:30 AM	Because that would really be a clever decoy you planted. You're watching the whole thing through a scrying pool 1,000 miles away, or safely locked in your own personal demiplane, with the key being a spell that only you know.
The Simbul 06-30-07, 01:44 AM	I personally define "power" not only by one's individual capabilities1, but moreso by their involvement with the world around them, their ability to influence it or the actions of others, and their resources--the most important of which being true devoted allies (i.e. not ones coerced, intimidated, or forced to assist you because of law or social order, magical influence, or an abused imbalance of power). For that reason, of all the beings of Faerūn who have been detailed in the lore2, I would rank Elminster Aumar among the most powerful. While not as individually powerful as Ioulaum, Shoon, or any of a dozen ancient draconic personas, Elminster does wield a vast and seemingly inexhaustible number of varied, diverse, and powerful allies, and is far more involved in the affiairs of Faerūn at large than his statistically more powerful contemporaries. Indeed, by contrast many of these individually powerful beings exist in self-imposed exile in their crypts, caverns, or lairs, pursuing goals that serve their own interests and their desires for power rather than to aid the world around them. While they could crush any singular or small group of foes who assaulted them, they could not necessarily overmatch Elminster's ability to call upon allies to aid him, or to expect such allies to raise or avenge him in the immediate aftermath of his fall. ...and no if you think by "allies" I am simply referring to Mystra, the Seven Sisters, and the other bearers of the Silver Fire then you have not begun to scratch the surface. 1 By "individual capabilities" I mean as defined by the D&D rules in a character sheet, statistics block, or a race/template/class/level line from which such things could be extrapolated. 2Bear in mind that Elminster's prevalence in a fairly large degree of Forgotten Realms novels and lorebooks does in turn mean that such assessments are biased in his favor, as many other known beings in Faerūn have not had as much detail written about them, or much of anything written at all. However since we can only judge such criteria based on what is written, then at present I would consider Elminster one of the most powerful beings in Faerūn based on what is known about the denizens of the realms.
pokie 06-30-07, 01:51 AM	Honestly, Elminster strikes me as straightforward and clueless in comparison to ancient liches. They could spin him around their finger bones anyway they want, imo.
Walls 06-30-07, 02:26 AM	The Simbul's post wins.
sages 06-30-07, 03:41 AM	Laroch has allies too. Just think about those liches and demiliches.
captaincarot 06-30-07, 04:09 AM	Speaking as a physics student who has already handled some dangerous experiments, I don't think it really needs to be explained why. speaking as a physicist, this tends to consist of stands as far away as possible while still being able to see what your'e doing, then try to find the windows afterwards :D
captaincarot 06-30-07, 04:13 AM	Laroch has allies too. Just think about those liches and demiliches. but why would those liches and demiliches want to help him? decapitaion of evil organisations is always made easier by the fact that killing someones boss might just mean promotion for someone else, so the guy who stands to benefit, won't tend to come help the one being attacked. you always have to consider the benefits of an evil charachter not intervening to that person, before you decide if they lend aid. the good guys just tend to help each other.
Zsych 06-30-07, 04:15 AM	Well, if you were a mage physicist, and the particle accelerator you created was with your own spells, I expect that even the tools you have on hand for your work would constitute dangerous weapons, if so required. -- @Simbul: As much as your post says what I usually say about goodies vs. baddies. That the major baddies seem to be dormant in the realms... If Ioulaum wants power, I doubt it would cause him much trouble to take it(after some preperation), and I doubt that the likes of Elminster would be able to stop him from doing what he wants. Ioulaum is no unskilled ruler, or idiot in the games of intrigue. He'll know what kind of forces he needs to create, and his magic/psionics will support him.
OverworkedDm 06-30-07, 10:54 AM	I completely and wholely agree with the simbul. Elminsters allies would zealously and fervently defend him, or come to his aid, unlike those of an evil archmage that are either being magically compelled or compelled by fear alone. Also, we have to remember that Mystra herself came to his aid in Elminster in Hell, and nobody has allies that can compete with that. Not to mention the fact that one of these evil archmages (larloch) has already said that he would never mess with the chosen, and that their silver fire terrifies him.
pokie 06-30-07, 12:22 PM	I just think allies should be disregarded for the purpose of this post... It's 1 on 1 butt kicking time... Otherwise, Open Lord has more allies than ElMonster... Also we really have no idea who has what kind of allies in FR, more or less.
421 06-30-07, 01:02 PM	A clear definition of what "powerful" means in this discussion is lacking. The lack of such definition in this kind of post is the cause of much mayhem and misunderstanding. Yet, to provide one more minor suggestion of an over-powerful being:Araumycos.
pokie 06-30-07, 01:29 PM	who is that?
captaincarot 06-30-07, 01:32 PM	who is that? auramycos is a massive (a few miles across at least) fungus thingy that lives under a forrest in the underdark and eats things. no one knows what it's thinking about, cos it's a lot alien, but apparently it's intelligent. which probably means it's up to something. And it is psionic.
XHereticX 06-30-07, 04:22 PM	"Good builds upon itself, while evil devours itself." that is a law I don't deny. Still, I say that the whole concept of power varies and there are very different types of powers depending on what standard you are going by. Ex. One cannot deny the physical strength and might of Chuck Norris, but in a political confrontation with some suits in the U.N, can he really pull it off? (I say yes, but that is beyond the point:D ) Personal Power: Larloch Political Power: Tam, or Fzoul, or the late King Azoun of Cormyr are all viable choices. Prestige: Chosen, most notably El. Munchkiness in novels: no brainer, The Simbul
Boda 06-30-07, 07:18 PM	"Good builds upon itself, while evil devours itself." that is a law I don't deny. Personal Power: Larloch Political Power: Tam, or Fzoul, or the late King Azoun of Cormyr are all viable choices. Prestige: Chosen, most notably El. Munchkiness in novels: no brainer, The Simbul Agree with Larloch(maybe), disagree with tam and fzoul(azoun yes)-nobody trusts or even is willingly allying with them(besides the zhentarim without manshoon and sememnon are grunts for the banites)-put my vote in overmaster of sembia or the open lord. As Els for prestige, strongly disagree(other that people in the know, how many actually like him?price to pay for so many covert stuff) The treecrawling rodent thing, sure, why not!
XHereticX 06-30-07, 07:46 PM	Agree with Larloch(maybe), disagree with tam and fzoul(azoun yes)-nobody trusts or even is willingly allying with them(besides the zhentarim without manshoon and sememnon are grunts for the banites)-put my vote in overmaster of sembia or the open lord. As Els for prestige, strongly disagree(other that people in the know, how many actually like him?price to pay for so many covert stuff) The treecrawling rodent thing, sure, why not! Hmm, evil has more tendrils in society than most people suspect...do not underestimate them:) El certainly has made a name for himself over this last millenia, don't you think? And although many may deny it, he certainly is seen as a superman type figure.
BrennonGoldeye 06-30-07, 11:38 PM	Why would you nuke a guy right beside you? Good point.:) Because that would really be a clever decoy you planted. You're watching the whole thing through a scrying pool 1,000 miles away, or safely locked in your own personal demiplane, with the key being a spell that only you know. Excellent response.;) I personally define "power" not only by one's individual capabilities1, but moreso by their involvement with the world around them, their ability to influence it or the actions of others, and their resources--the most important of which being true devoted allies (i.e. not ones coerced, intimidated, or forced to assist you because of law or social order, magical influence, or an abused imbalance of power). For that reason, of all the beings of Faerūn who have been detailed in the lore2, I would rank Elminster Aumar among the most powerful. While not as individually powerful as Ioulaum, Shoon, or any of a dozen ancient draconic personas, Elminster does wield a vast and seemingly inexhaustible number of varied, diverse, and powerful allies, and is far more involved in the affiairs of Faerūn at large than his statistically more powerful contemporaries. Indeed, by contrast many of these individually powerful beings exist in self-imposed exile in their crypts, caverns, or lairs, pursuing goals that serve their own interests and their desires for power rather than to aid the world around them. While they could crush any singular or small group of foes who assaulted them, they could not necessarily overmatch Elminster's ability to call upon allies to aid him, or to expect such allies to raise or avenge him in the immediate aftermath of his fall. ...and no if you think by "allies" I am simply referring to Mystra, the Seven Sisters, and the other bearers of the Silver Fire then you have not begun to scratch the surface. 1 By "individual capabilities" I mean as defined by the D&D rules in a character sheet, statistics block, or a race/template/class/level line from which such things could be extrapolated. 2Bear in mind that Elminster's prevalence in a fairly large degree of Forgotten Realms novels and lorebooks does in turn mean that such assessments are biased in his favor, as many other known beings in Faerūn have not had as much detail written about them, or much of anything written at all. However since we can only judge such criteria based on what is written, then at present I would consider Elminster one of the most powerful beings in Faerūn based on what is known about the denizens of the realms. Bwahhahahaha!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Nuff Said. :D
GothicDan 06-30-07, 11:56 PM	He was referring to the adjective 'own,' I believe.
Yanagita Kunio 07-01-07, 01:10 AM	The answer is, of course, Ioulaum taped to Larloch, glued to the shoulders of Shruppak. That, or whatever is formed when the Seven Sisters combine after using their deeply-hidden, secret sentai-team powers.
Dark Wizard 07-01-07, 02:02 AM	The answer is, of course, Ioulaum taped to Larloch, glued to the shoulders of Shruppak. "Dude, you just duct-taped the two most powerful unliving human archwizards together!" "Yeah, isn't it awesome. I call it Iouloch*!" *Larlaum if you tape Larloch to Ioulaum, yes there is a difference. And what of Shuruppak? We don't want him, he's crazy ... and mostly a fighter. That, or whatever is formed when the Seven Sisters combine after using their deeply-hidden, secret sentai-team powers. I wouldn't doubt it if something like that actual existed between them. In fact, I would be surprised if it didn't.
Marshal.Nemesis 07-01-07, 02:31 AM	Where can i find more information about Laroch and the Io guy..
Yanagita Kunio 07-01-07, 02:57 AM	Dark Wizard-- Shruppak is the zing! We need the zing! Ioulopak is what is was thinking. Never underestimate the utility of a big, sweaty, crazy guy with a sword. Although in this case it's basically so he can be the most lethal pack mule in existence. Marshal -- Larloch is given a 3e statblock in Lords of Darkness, though many feel it doesn't convey his condensed awesome from which no light escapes. Ioulaum is mentioned in Lost Empires of Faerun in the "Fallen Netheril" section, in the section on the Oracle of Ellyn'taal.
pokie 07-01-07, 04:25 AM	auramycos is a massive (a few miles across at least) fungus thingy that lives under a forrest in the underdark and eats things. no one knows what it's thinking about, cos it's a lot alien, but apparently it's intelligent. which probably means it's up to something. And it is psionic. There are much bigger fungi IRL (think 100s of miles)
Zsych 07-01-07, 06:34 AM	Arrgghh!!!! I actually looked at Realms of Elves in the book store today. The specific section about Larloch. Pathetic. Although if he actually was planning to move against the Chosen, if he has the supposed intelligence Ed attributes to him, I doubt those brats will stop him from succeeding in whatever he wants(sad though, the worship he feels for Mystra, and the respect he shows her Chosen... whatever happened to the Netherese spirit?)
creyzi4zb12 07-01-07, 07:23 AM	Come to think of it, there was an unknown dude who was more powerful than Ao in the Realms.
msatran 07-01-07, 10:28 AM	The being has to be IN Faerun, not in another plane of Faerun. Therefore, my vote goes to Gwaeron Windstrom, since he is a Demipower native to the Prime.
GothicDan 07-01-07, 12:37 PM	Aren't there a few other demipowers who are?
Zsych 07-01-07, 03:40 PM	I'd vote on Ioulaum over any minor god. (just needs a suitable PrC to take advantage of the fact that he is both a wizard and a psionic + the fact that he is an elder brain, and should have some of the potential of having more than one caster working together)
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 04:04 PM	Iouaum SHOULD be at least a demi-god at this point, going by the old Dark Sun rules. If a being capable of doing epic magic (9+) is also able to use psionic powers, he/she/it can start the process of 'godhood' at level 20! It takes ten levels to achieve, and is complete at level 30. I would say that Ioulum made his 'big brain' choice because he learned of this method, and has had plenty of time to set the wheels in motion. He was always smarter then Karsus, and he learned that 'short-cuts' never work. ;) I figure he should be able to grant spells by now, so worshippers should start lining up. I just hope that guy 'Frye' doesn't show up and ruin everything. :dancin:
Zsych 07-01-07, 04:46 PM	In FR sadly, you need a god to sponsor you for you to become a god yourself. .. And Ioulaum should aim higher than becoming a god anyway... preferably into something that doesn't need worship to survive and become stronger(notice Auppensor reduced to nothing thanks to one elven attack spell)
GothicDan 07-01-07, 09:00 PM	And what exactly would that be, Zysch? Within the bounds of D&D canon, I mean. You have the Planar Paragons, but Ioulaum doesn't have much of a shot at that, and their power levels are still roughly based on mortal belief.
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 09:40 PM	He's shooting for Ao's job. :D Same way Doctor Doom was going for ultimate power when he stole Galactus's power and challenged the Beyonder. Why just rule the world, when you can rule the universe? :devil:
Zsych 07-01-07, 10:45 PM	Why my dear GD, it should be obvious that a truely great scientist would discover something new. Create a whole new form of existence for himself(not that an elder-brain lich had happened before to our knowledge, but farther still) ... or as I suggested once... a self-sustaining god. Someone capable of generating the faith that maintains gods by himself, for himself.
GothicDan 07-01-07, 10:50 PM	Physicists don't create new realities, though. We just explore the current ones. Currently, D&D reality does not support such beings... Closest is the Lady of Pain, who is rather singular, and then Overgods.. who have itty bitty living spaces.
Zsych 07-01-07, 10:52 PM	A decent mage can create new life forms. And one who has studied gods, might well be able to create a new being with aspects of gods. ... and what do you think the TV was when it was created, if not a new, previously unthoughtof discovery, based on existing rules of physics?
GothicDan 07-01-07, 11:05 PM	I am saying what is currently available in the D&D ruleset. Anything beyond that is purely theoretical, and not any more possible than Mirt exploding into pink fire ants that shoot cotton candy.
Yanagita Kunio 07-01-07, 11:42 PM	I am saying what is currently available in the D&D ruleset. Anything beyond that is purely theoretical, and not any more possible than Mirt exploding into pink fire ants that shoot cotton candy. ...which will be attacking my players on their next visit to Waterdeep. Thanks, Dan. --- Zsych-- If you want a cool idea for Ioulaum akin to "godhood" considered the psionic ability genesis [Shaper 9] plus the life-creating/shaping available through Transmutation effects, and the ability to develop epic spells from seeds like life, conjure, and transform.
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 01:13 AM	Aren't there a few other demipowers who are? -There are quite a few. Hell, some intermediate powers made the Prime their homes. Mielikki, for instance, made the Prime her home until the Time of Troubles. Interestingly enough, because of this, she was not affected by the general chaos that prevailed during that time period. So says Faiths and Avatars.
pokie 07-02-07, 02:53 AM	Ok, why would Mr. Io want to achieve a power beyond that of a god? It hardly offers any practical benefits; sure, Ao can probably destroy anything, but he does seem to be hella bored. Mr. Io made the worst decision of his life when he got rid of his lower torso; now he is constrained to the infinity of motionless odium - remember, no internet in those days...
Zsych 07-02-07, 03:28 AM	In the process of aiming high, and becoming a greater being... some sacrifices may have to be made. I'm saying that he might aim at something similar to a god, without the weaknesses, because those weaknesses make gods unstable, and subject to the imaginations of their worshippers. Knowledge for Knowledge sake, Power for Power sake, are perfectly reasonable objectives that need to further excuses for targetting them. --- @GD: I think that there is already precedent for different types of beings. And even Shar and Selune originally needed no worshippers. But also, as I said before, if you treat the word god as a generalization like animal, there are a lot of possibilities in there for what the being might actually end up being over all. (and if Ioulaum takes only part of the aspects of a god, its not a bizarre scenario. He is already an unusual case, being a lich that is not humanoid)
pokie 07-02-07, 04:25 AM	That makes for a pretty empty life if you ask me. :)
Zsych 07-02-07, 05:06 AM	You can serve the species or you can serve yourself. Ioulaum had already done his duty to the species :)
BrennonGoldeye 07-02-07, 10:10 AM	Wow Zyche, this has been a true schooling in the blah,blah,blah.:D Mirt exploding into pink fire ants that shoot cotton candy. That would be frikin awesome. Let's get to researching . :mage:
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 10:23 AM	Come to think of it, there was an unknown dude who was more powerful than Ao in the Realms. -That would be Ao's Master.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 10:30 AM	-That would be Ao's Master. And we all know who that is right?;)
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 10:32 AM	-Exactly...:cool:
pokie 07-02-07, 12:15 PM	Bob the plumber? :lightbulb ;)
Zsych 07-02-07, 03:38 PM	@Brennon: You would live and die an animal if you had a choice in the matter?
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 03:43 PM	@Brennon: You would live and die an animal if you had a choice in the matter? -We are all already animals. ;)
Zsych 07-02-07, 03:48 PM	Exactly the point.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 04:00 PM	Actually, some people think that humans are actually aliens.:P
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 04:03 PM	Actually, some people think that humans are actually aliens.:P -Wait, wait, wait...I thought the aliens created the Humans. :confused: :P
pokie 07-02-07, 04:07 PM	The popular theory is that Earth was seeded with microbes from space... Since they can survive a meteoritic impact, that's a reasonable possibility, especially given the time that the current theories estimate a "spontaneous" formation of life would take on primordial Earth.
Zsych 07-02-07, 04:11 PM	So that would just mean that we began as a "spontaneous" formation of life on some other planet.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 04:33 PM	-Wait, wait, wait...I thought the aliens created the Humans. :confused: :P Exactly, which means we are still unnatural and classified as alien life.
pokie 07-02-07, 05:20 PM	So that would just mean that we began as a "spontaneous" formation of life on some other planet. Yes... Some scientists believe that formation of DNA code etc. would take too long for life to originate on Earth.
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 08:29 PM	Exactly, which means we are still unnatural and classified as alien life. -Not necessarily. An animal grown/created/born somewhere else doesn't have to be fully alien. Those Japanese beetles that were introduced to the U.S. and wreak havoc in trees are alien creatures, yes, but they are still insects. Now, apply that to Humanity. Yes... Some scientists believe that formation of DNA code etc. would take too long for life to originate on Earth. -Too bad Chimpanzees share something like 92% of our genetic code, thus mooting their argument. Unless...Chimps were "seeded" from outer space too...:eek:
Zsych 07-02-07, 08:42 PM	Its more like they are saying that the early evolution of lifeforms that have DNA and thus can evolve decently, might not have occured on earth. And I recall Chimps being closer to 97.5% human :) Seriously, until recently humans weren't worth much, the individual human still isn't anything earth shaking, and if gorillas and chimps could actually speak so that they could define new words to describe objects and ideas... maybe they would start becoming something interesting too. (apparently the design of their throats or some such, doesn't support complex sounds... so besides what difference in intelligence there might be, its like having a whole race of humans that has never been able to speak or communicate complex ideas)
Lord Karsus 07-02-07, 08:56 PM	And I recall Chimps being closer to 97.5% human :) -Either way, I knew it was something surprisingly high.
pokie 07-02-07, 09:41 PM	-Too bad Chimpanzees share something like 92% of our genetic code, thus mooting their argument. Unless...Chimps were "seeded" from outer space too...:eek: Yeah, you missed the whole point here; as I said some scientists think that 4.5 billion years of Earth's existence is insufficient for development of primitive life (e.g. formation of nucleotides-> DNA-> single cell organisms). Humans and chimps have nothing to do with that. So the hypothesis is that some meteorite brought single cell life to Earth.
Zsych 07-02-07, 10:11 PM	4.5 Billion years is a long time. And before the whole martian meteor thing, I'm sure no one was even suggesting it. Basic life has been created in labs, and where that can be born, over time, something more complex could be born through evolution and mutation(very likely in primitive life forms.. look at the RNA based flu, more mutant forms appearing every month)
pokie 07-02-07, 10:14 PM	I am too lazy to argue about this, but let's just say I read about 20 books on this subject... While the hypothesis I described is not predominant, it is quite major.
BrennonGoldeye 07-02-07, 10:31 PM	I have read the same books and pokie does have good literary backing here. I think it's total hogwash mind you. 4.5 billion years x all the chemically reactive molecules that make up the surface of the earth equals one heck of a number shuffle. All you need is for it to happen once. :)
pokie 07-02-07, 10:33 PM	More like a couple of billion times... You know, to make a replicable population. Also 4.5 billion years is for the whole evolution process as well as formation of the planet. Still I am not proponent of the seeding hypothesis - I was merely pointing it out to the person who mentioned something similar.
BrennonGoldeye 07-03-07, 11:51 AM	More like a couple of billion times... You know, to make a replicable population. Also 4.5 billion years is for the whole evolution process as well as formation of the planet. Still I am not proponent of the seeding hypothesis - I was merely pointing it out to the person who mentioned something similar. See, with critters that small the replicable population thing means nothing. No sex here. Just asexual reproduction and mutation. It only takes one actual "birth" to end up with everything from koalas to Canadians. Not going at you pokie(gawd I just love that name, makes me think of Buffy), just spreading the love.;)
Cryto 07-03-07, 12:50 PM	I vote for Inferno (red dragon). Chosen of Tiamat!
Renvale999 07-03-07, 01:34 PM	My vote would go with the Sarukh liches in Oryondoll, as an organization, then Ioulam as a singular creature
Renelius 07-03-07, 02:13 PM	Your DM is the most powerful being in the Forgotten Realms...
pokie 07-03-07, 02:40 PM	See, with critters that small the replicable population thing means nothing. No sex here. Just asexual reproduction and mutation. It only takes one actual "birth" to end up with everything from koalas to Canadians. Not going at you pokie(gawd I just love that name, makes me think of Buffy), just spreading the love.;) Mhm, I wasn't thinking about that; so much for my bioengineering degree. still you need a large population for those things to _survive_. Even if a few of them can reproduce asexually, they would still have trouble surviving on the hell that was primordial Earth. Btw, pokie stands for http://www.poecilotheria.com/Bilder/poecilotheria/Berichte/male/metallica_male.JPG :D Also, I change my mind. THAT ^^^ is the most powerful creature in the realms.
BrennonGoldeye 07-03-07, 03:44 PM	OH my. That is one sexy spider.:D And since that "Hell" is what brought them into existence in the first place, they would be right at home. Black Smoker anyone.;) I would also like to give my vote to spider-pokie.
Lord Karsus 07-03-07, 04:40 PM	And since that "Hell" is what brought them into existence in the first place, they would be right at home. Black Smoker anyone.;) -I know, I could tell! :P I vote for Inferno (red dragon). Chosen of Tiamat! -Inferno isn't a Chosen of Tiamat.
pokie 07-03-07, 04:57 PM	Tchazzar is
Lord Karsus 07-03-07, 05:18 PM	-Yep. He wasn't always, though. Very convoluted, those retroactive retcons.
ShadezofDis 07-03-07, 07:24 PM	-Yep. He wasn't always, though. Very convoluted, those retroactive retcons. Suspension of disbelief.
BrennonGoldeye 07-04-07, 07:24 AM	I know, I could tell!:P Gosh, you can smell that, sorry.;)
creyzi4zb12 07-04-07, 08:49 AM	The Night Serpent....If she's included that is?
Aldareth 07-04-07, 10:25 AM	my vote goes to araumycos as the most powerfull being/creature in faerun
XHereticX 07-04-07, 11:26 AM	The Night Serpent....If she's included that is? Nope, Fugue Plane.
Lord Karsus 07-04-07, 06:30 PM	Gosh, you can smell that, sorry.;) -Didn't bother me. Oddly enough, it reminded me of my lost days of childhood...Don't ask.
captaincarot 07-05-07, 04:56 AM	Physicists don't create new realities, though. We just explore the current ones. Currently, D&D reality does not support such beings... not entirely true when we're playing with high energy accelerators, it all gets a bit confusing.
creyzi4zb12 07-05-07, 06:37 AM	Whattabout Kezef the Chaos Hound? Didn't he walk the Realms once?
Boda 07-05-07, 12:47 PM	maybe Elsminster. Has a mage he is powerful, but has the absolute master of all females in Faerun and beyond....ooohhh, beware Ao!
captaincarot 07-05-07, 01:42 PM	So that would just mean that we began as a "spontaneous" formation of life on some other planet. or asteroid or comet or moon or?
XHereticX 07-05-07, 08:47 PM	Whattabout Kezef the Chaos Hound? Didn't he walk the Realms once? He can kindda be anywhere, so don't count that. We could be the survivors of an alien species that crashed on this planet after their original homeworld was destroyed and they degenerated into babarism, just like Superman from Krypton.:D
Grimgrag 07-08-07, 08:28 AM	u got also the big number of the leeches in oreme i dont think anything coud kill them
Francius 07-10-07, 05:12 PM	He can kindda be anywhere, so don't count that. We could be the survivors of an alien species that crashed on this planet.... Yeah, like Xenogears.
Nolwelen 08-20-07, 07:51 AM	My vote goes for the Terraseer. Sarrukh are by far the most intelligent creatures of the realms considering the average Sarrukh (without class levels) as presented in Serpent Kingdoms has an intelligence score of 30!! Arthindol should easily be around Int 50 or so using wishes, and raising his Int through level advancement. The average human has an Int score of what? ... 10 or something like that. Asuming Iolaum was a paragon Human he started with an 18 to 20 (in 2ed terms: genius, which is quite high but nothing compared to 30). So perhaps Io is the higher level spell caster, but he for sure is not the more effective spellcaster. Not to mention the experience Arthindol must have gained over the last 30.000!! (though he spend much of his time in hybernation, which could be seen as an advanced state of meditation;); though there is still the question: why must a lich sleep? perhaps because of boredom ... ) years. And with experience I don't mean XP but the knowledge and wisdom, the caution and the foresight of an ancient beeing. The knowledge of how to use a spell in his most effective way and how to overcome obstacles and enemies (not with brute force but wit and patience) that Io never even dreamed of. Even more than that: he is a brain in Jar.:rolleyes: Come on, where is the style? Arthindol wins. :ayyyy!: Concerning Larloch I'm not sure yet ... he is very, very, very powerful and influential. Even Thayan Archlichs come and and ask for advice ...:) Well since its not entirly clear what is meant, either the most powerful individual, meaning one sole being, or the most powerful being because of powerbase and influence, I will come up with two names. The most powerful mortal individual is from my point of view Ioulaum. His inteligence score was even back in AD&D 21, which could not be acquired by humans in that ruleset. Even all the Chosen of Mystra, the Zulkirs, Manshoon and so forth, had "only" an 18, the maximum for humans. Well Karsus' intelligence score back then was 22, for those who care. In the current year 1375, if Im right, he is 4690 years old. Not bad for a mere human being. What sets him apart of the most of the longliving mortals on Toril, he did not hide for the first 3000 years of his life. He was around in Netheril for most of the time and he did expose himself to dangers more than once. Through him one of the greater civilisations of Toril rose above the sky in flying cities. In general to the common netherese people Ioulaum held the status of a public hero, what further exposed him to the attention of Netherils numberous enemies. As to what he had done for Netheril I suppose he should be refered to as "THE Archwizard" and not Karsus. He did not rely on Netheril, Netheril relied on him! In the and that is what makes him outstanding as an individual and not directly his abilities. As for the most powerful being I would vote for the Pharao of Mulhorand, whoever that might be at present. He seems to have a very strong powerbase, growing even stronger.
Lord Karsus 08-20-07, 09:49 AM	As to what he had done for Netheril I suppose he should be refered to as "THE Archwizard" and not Karsus. -Ioulaum was my *****. EDIT: Looks like I can't say that...
leo_neil316 08-23-07, 02:37 PM	For some reason reading this thread makes me want to find out if that 'I'm so old I'm purple' black dragon from the cormyr book ever got statted for the game. What was his name again? Thauragor or something.
MarkusTay63 08-23-07, 04:31 PM	-Ioulaum was my biotch.Fixed it. ;) Actually, I get the impression that Karsus was just an Ioulaum wanna-be. :P I'm sure Ioulaum figured that spell out long before Karsus, but was too WISE to use it. He understood the reprecussions. Karsus was like a brilliant child standing on the shoulders of giants. He took the research of past discoveries and moved them forward, with no thought about the consequences. There was even a female Mage who figured out how to fix the the magic the Phaerimms cast, but she was killed moments after the discovery. Obviously SHE figured out a better way then Karsus, but his ego was too big and got in the way. :evillaugh At least, thats how I perceive it. The REAL smart ones all got away and are still alive (sort of) - Ioulaum, Larloch, that fat guy.... No offence to you personally, I'm just talking about your assumed persona here. ;)
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-23-07, 06:27 PM	Meh, at that level its hard to say. Once you hit level 30 or so, level really begin to have less difference, or so Greenwood says. To elaborate, he claims there is a huge difference between a level 10 and level 15, but only barely noticable difference between a level 32 and level 37. Meh. IMO, Larloch, Karsus, Ioulaum were all fairly close in power. Seems like Larloch and Ioulaum knew what would happen once that spell was cast since they bailed out. Shows maybe they knew more than Karsus:) But its all speculation.
ShadezofDis 08-24-07, 01:20 AM	I definitely agree with the "10 vs 15 is huge and 32 vs 37 is small", especially since there are almost no Realms fights that are straight up fights and levels are just a small portion of someones "power" at those types of levels. I can buy that Larloch was, at the time, more powerful and more accomplished. I doubt he knew the spell but I'd assume he knew the theory behind the spell. However, I truly believe that Karsus would have surpassed Larloch if he had went about things differently (and the Phaerimm didn't destroy Netheril and take over Faerun). Well, assuming I'm remembering how old Larloch truly is anyhow, compared to Larloch, Karsus was a child when (and this is the important part) he wrenched divinity from the goddess of magic WITH A SPELL. Now, it's been shown that Mystra can deny greater gods access to magic and Mystra (especially at the time) is a very poor mans Mystryl (or even Mystra 1). There are a variety of ways that I can think of as to why Mystryl wouldn't stop Karsus (from it being her plan all along, to shar interfering with her ability to detect Karsus' studies and casting, to things I can't even think of) but . . . but DAMN!, it's a feat that really is beyond comprehension and I think that Larloch is just trying to rewrite history when he says "Karsus was my tool." But, that's just my interpretation, nothing proves it in the least. :)
Lord Karsus 08-24-07, 11:06 AM	For some reason reading this thread makes me want to find out if that 'I'm so old I'm purple' black dragon from the cormyr book ever got statted for the game. What was his name again? Thauragor or something. -Dragons of Faerūn simply lists Thauglorimorgorus as a Male Ancient Black Dragon, obviously, who is dead. No CR or anything. I can buy that Larloch was, at the time, more powerful and more accomplished. -How can you say that? We know nothing of Larloch during the Netherese Era. Everything we know about him takes place in the Post-Netherese Era. . . . but DAMN!, it's a feat that really is beyond comprehension and I think that Larloch is just trying to rewrite history when he says "Karsus was my tool." -Indeed. Meh, at that level its hard to say. Once you hit level 30 or so, level really begin to have less difference, or so Greenwood says. To elaborate, he claims there is a huge difference between a level 10 and level 15, but only barely noticable difference between a level 32 and level 37. Meh. -There really isn't that much of a difference. Is there really a difference if you can blow up the world in ten seconds, or seven seconds? Not really. Think of it like this. You, yourself, have a very small influence over others (Level 10). A police officer has a much larger degree of influence over others (Level 15). The Undersecretary of Defense has a lot of influence over other people (Level 32). The Secretary of Defense also has a lot of influence over other people (Level 37). Where is the difference between the ability to influence others most notable? The first set, or the second? Actually, I get the impression that Karsus was just an Ioulaum wanna-be. :P -Not in the least, trust me. ;) I'm sure Ioulaum figured that spell out long before Karsus, but was too WISE to use it. -Speculation on your part, which I believe is completely incorrect. What are the odds that Ioulaum would happen to research and create the same exact spell? Obviously SHE figured out a better way then Karsus, but his ego was too big and got in the way. :evillaugh -That might have fixed the problem temporarily, but there is no way to know if that would have solved it permanently. Remember, Phaerimm were (and still are) very alien. Humans didn't know too much about Phaerimm, and still don't. At least, thats how I perceive it. The REAL smart ones all got away and are still alive (sort of) - Ioulaum, Larloch, that fat guy.... -Aumvor is a fat bastard. He is also only a Necromancer 15 / Archmage 5 / Netherese Arcanist 5 / Epic Wizard 7. Including his Lich template and all, that's only a CR in the mid-30s. He really doesn't belong in such company as Larloch, Ioulaum and myself. -Technically, Larloch doesn't, either...;) No offence to you personally, I'm just talking about your assumed persona here. ;) -None taken. :)
ShadezofDis 08-24-07, 11:19 AM	-How can you say that? We know nothing of Larloch during the Netherese Era. Everything we know about him takes place in the Post-Netherese Era. Because, and I may be mistaken here, but because I believe Larloch was old when Netheril was founded. That doesn't really mean a whole lot, Larloch could be the tortoise to Karsus' hare, but I'll take someone with VAST experience vs someone who's just coming into their own anyday (though this is more of a average outcome, rather than a specific one, if they were to have battled to the death then I'm pretty sure it would have been anyones game, it's the plotting, extended type of "power" I'm speaking of). However, it's all pure speculation (and personal preference :))
Lord Karsus 08-24-07, 11:49 AM	Because, and I may be mistaken here, but because I believe Larloch was old when Netheril was founded. -He could have also been born days before The Fall!
ShadezofDis 08-24-07, 11:58 AM	-He could have also been born days before The Fall! Heh, then he'd have been the friggin Mozart of Nethril, since he abandoned ruling his flying enclave before the Fall. :D Larloch timeline; Birth - Comes out castin baby! Day One - Full fledged Netheril Arcanist before nap time, studies Netheril Scrolls after nap time. Day Two - Takes over flying enclave in the morning, gets bored with it by the evening (kids those days, not attention span!) Day Three - Fully abandons the flying enclave and moves on. Day Four - Karsus casts his spell. :bravo:
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-24-07, 12:06 PM	-He could have also been born days before The Fall! Gaining 12 Epic levels and between 34cr-46cr in just a few days after birth would be the most remarkable achievement of any NPC in the realms:)
Lord Karsus 08-24-07, 02:16 PM	Heh, then he'd have been the friggin Mozart of Nethril, since he abandoned ruling his flying enclave before the Fall. :D Larloch timeline; Birth - Comes out castin baby! Day One - Full fledged Netheril Arcanist before nap time, studies Netheril Scrolls after nap time. Day Two - Takes over flying enclave in the morning, gets bored with it by the evening (kids those days, not attention span!) Day Three - Fully abandons the flying enclave and moves on. Day Four - Karsus casts his spell. :bravo: Gaining 12 Epic levels and between 34cr-46cr in just a few days after birth would be the most remarkable achievement of any NPC in the realms:) -Both are very, very valid points. :embarrass
ShadezofDis 08-24-07, 02:31 PM	-Both are very, very valid points. :embarrass Heh, at least you didn't say something like; (kids those days, not attention span!) :doh:
creyzi4zb12 08-26-07, 07:39 AM	Whattabout Morag? The Queen of the creator races (sarrukh) in -thirty thousand yrs. before the Nether came to rise. She had access to time travel magic enslaved a legion of dragons, had some wicked cults surviving up to now (The Cult of the Eye).
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 08-26-07, 03:05 PM	Whattabout Morag? The Queen of the creator races (sarrukh) in -thirty thousand yrs. before the Nether came to rise. She had access to time travel magic enslaved a legion of dragons, had some wicked cults surviving up to now (The Cult of the Eye). Morag was a 32CR with a pretty extensive ability list. A formidable opponent for anyone. However, I still rank her below some of Mystra's chosen and other notables like Larloch, Telamont Tanthul, Ioulaum, Halaster, etc.
Green Elven Vampire 08-29-07, 03:23 AM	I think Griznard the Bullywug bungalow burglar is the most powerful being on Toril!!!
creyzi4zb12 08-29-07, 03:40 AM	Morag was a 32CR with a pretty extensive ability list. A formidable opponent for anyone. However, I still rank her below some of Mystra's chosen and other notables like Larloch, Telamont Tanthul, Ioulaum, Halaster, etc. Well, some other guy from the creator races then. I think their magic is more dangerous during the early ages because there weren't that much restrictions yet. Like time-travel. I think Griznard the Bullywug bungalow burglar is the most powerful being on Toril!!! Who's that?
ShadezofDis 08-29-07, 09:39 AM	Who's that? GEV just made up something silly. That's all. Anyhow, we're FAR to ignorant to say who the most powerful is and even were we to somehow gain all that knowledge it would still depend upon the situation.
Mordakahn 08-29-07, 01:38 PM	Technically, it is printed that The Simbul is the most powerful arcane spell caster in Toril....she has fought off the Red Wizards almost single-handedly...and she does have a whole nation at her disposal. Not bad.
Jagaer 08-29-07, 04:24 PM	-There really isn't that much of a difference. Is there really a difference if you can blow up the world in ten seconds, or seven seconds? Not really. Think of it like this. You, yourself, have a very small influence over others (Level 10). A police officer has a much larger degree of influence over others (Level 15). The Undersecretary of Defense has a lot of influence over other people (Level 32). The Secretary of Defense also has a lot of influence over other people (Level 37). Where is the difference between the ability to influence others most notable? The first set, or the second? There is only one thing that i can say about this. Didn't Al Gore say he was only a 10th lvl Vice President? So are you trying to infer that the SoD is much more powerful than the Vice President? Very interesting politcal viewpoint. :D
Lord Karsus 08-29-07, 04:51 PM	There is only one thing that i can say about this. Didn't Al Gore say he was only a 10th lvl Vice President? So are you trying to infer that the SoD is much more powerful than the Vice President? Very interesting politcal viewpoint. :D -Well, yes, Al Gore was a 10th Level Vice President. That wasn't exactly the direction I was taking that with, though, but hell, I'll run with it. Now, Donald Rumsfeld was, say, a 13th Level Secretary of Defense. Which is more powerful, a 10th Level Vice President, or a 13th Level Secretary of Defense? That's like asking which is more powerful, a 10th Level Barbarian, or a 13th Level Ranger. You can't accuratley compare the Vice President class and the Secretary of Defense class!
Sol_Odlanier 08-29-07, 04:58 PM	I think it's pretty obvious who's the more powerful is... based by this and other threads I'm sure that is Lord Karsus, I mean you don't see "Hands of Larloch" around. Have you? LK knowledge of the Realms alone is mind bending!!! He's like 1 follower away to RE-asend to god-hood! I wanna be one so bad......
Xavier_of_Cormyr 08-29-07, 05:42 PM	Alfred J. Verrecchia, CEO of Hasbro, which owns WotC.
Lord Karsus 08-29-07, 06:12 PM	He's like 1 follower away to RE-asend to god-hood! I wanna be one so bad...... -Think about it...You can be that follower. Yes, today is your lucky day, Sol. Today is your lucky day. If you just sign these papers here- and, don't mind the fine print- you can join the Kult of Karsus (Trademark Pending).
Sol_Odlanier 08-30-07, 09:16 AM	-Think about it...You can be that follower. Yes, today is your lucky day, Sol. Today is your lucky day. If you just sign these papers here- and, don't mind the fine print- you can join the Kult of Karsus (Trademark Pending). :blink: :twitch: :dancin: YEAH!!!Hm :whatsthis ......giving up my soul forever.....eternal suffering......no chance for a raise..... Sounds better than my current job! I'm in!!!
ShadezofDis 08-30-07, 09:45 AM	:blink: :twitch: :dancin: YEAH!!!Hm :whatsthis ......giving up my soul forever.....eternal suffering......no chance for a raise..... Sounds better than my current job! I'm in!!! Hey hey hey, that whole "eternal suffering" bit is just pure propaganda! And, once Karsus re-ascends then we'll be able to be raised, that could be you who gives us all the ability to be raised! Besides all that though, Xavier_of_Salem Ce. . . er. . . Cormyr wins the thread. :D
Xaean 08-30-07, 04:11 PM	Tchazzar - if a quasi-deity counts. Inferno, Nexus, the Creeping Doom, Elminster and the Simbul are all close.
mparthas 09-01-07, 03:39 PM	When you are trying to determine which person is the most powerful, do you only use official stats like the ones in Epic Handbook or try to extrapolate from various canon sources such as novels and the like ? The reason I ask is because Simbul as-statted is, comparatively speaking, weak as a kitten. Her unfocused levelling results in crappy caster level and low DC. Anything she casts can be counterspelled or dispelled very easily by a magic user at her CR. Elminster is also, for his CR, a crappy spellcaster. Only 29 caster level at CR39. The six levels in rogue, priest and warrior that he took are next to useless. He basically only get hitpoints, skill points and saving throws improvement from them. So I would count those two out of the race from the get go. The Simbul (not the character but previous poster) argued that Elminster is the strongest because he has numerous and powerful allies that would stand by him. I have to disagree with her because Elminster made those allies mainly through supporting one side or another in a conflict. Though that won him friends it also created enemies that just as numerous and powerful. And frankly, imho, the only reason he still survives is through plot shield. In a world without plot shield, his enemies would have long since used their brain cells to deduce that they must set aside their differences for a while and work together in order to remove their greatest threat.
Rick Day 09-02-07, 04:44 PM	Larlock. Come on he MIND CONTROLS other liches. The creeping domm ranks up there too what was his cr in DOF. Just my 2 cents
MarkHall 09-02-07, 05:06 PM	Ao
Wu_Ti 09-02-07, 09:07 PM	AO
_Jarlaxle_ 09-03-07, 06:35 AM	:rolleyes: But please nothing like your own PCs, demi-gods, deities their avatars or the rest of that ilk. and even if you want to post Ao, you should remember that even he has a master ;)
Wu_Ti 09-03-07, 09:50 AM	:rolleyes: and even if you want to post Ao, you should remember that even he has a master ;) Who? The DM.
Tallcoolone 09-03-07, 10:42 AM	my character
_Jarlaxle_ 09-03-07, 10:59 AM	Who? The DM. I heard that in one novel (don't rember which one) it is said that Ao reports to his master, although it is left unclear who is this master. Wikipedia says According to the Faiths and Pantheons (AD&D), Ao answers to a superior entity, known only as a being of light. It is insinuated that this superior is the "Dungeon Master". Ao's master also appears in The Avatar Series, where it is insinuated that he is God. I'm currently reading the Avatar series, so I'm curious whats said there exactly...
ChosenofAzuth 09-03-07, 12:46 PM	I heard that in one novel (don't rember which one) it is said that Ao reports to his master, although it is left unclear who is this master. Wikipedia says I'm currently reading the Avatar series, so I'm curious whats said there exactly... There is a very short conversation at the end of the last book of the series between Ao and an unnamed greater being.
GothicDan 09-03-07, 12:51 PM	That greater being would be.... me. "What really killed the dinosaurs?" "ME!" <3 Futurama.
Lord Karsus 09-03-07, 06:10 PM	"What really killed the dinosaurs?" "ME!" <3 Futurama. -What were you doing? (Family Guy)
Eli_the_Tanner 09-03-07, 07:00 PM	-What were you doing? (Family Guy) LOL!! One of the best scenes ever!
Alleran 09-04-07, 02:39 AM	I'm currently reading the Avatar series, so I'm curious whats said there exactly... All that's mentioned of Ao's master is that he is both "warm and cold, forgiving and harsh". And that it's a luminous presence. About as much as can be said is that assuming DvR goes up to 30-odd, his master would be the theoretical DvR 30 character, the Supreme Being (capitalisation deliberate). Or you can just assume that it's the DM, and Ao is capable of breaking the fourth wall. Either or. Ao's master can't really be counted, though, since the question is specifically Faerun, or Realmspace/Toril. Ao's master is beyond all that.
_Jarlaxle_ 09-04-07, 04:34 AM	Hey that was no call to spoiler me :P
MarkHall 09-04-07, 10:55 AM	By my count, books over 16 years old are immune to spoiler warnings.
Razor_Burnz 09-04-07, 12:08 PM	the DM is the most powerful person in faerun
godbeepit 09-05-07, 08:44 PM	I'd say Karsus because he's already broken the fourth barrier. I mean, he's got cults on these forums!!:P
ShadezofDis 09-05-07, 11:51 PM	I'd say Karsus because he's already broken the fourth barrier. I mean, he's got cults on these forums!!:P Cults are so much lamer than we are. :cool:
Lord Karsus 09-06-07, 01:05 PM	I'd say Karsus because he's already broken the fourth barrier. I mean, he's got cults on these forums!!:P -The fourth wall trembles in my presence. Cults are so much lamer than we are. :cool: -Now, now. I love all of the members of my flock. :)
ShadezofDis 09-06-07, 01:39 PM	-Now, now. I love all of the members of my flock. :) No doubt. I'm just sayin that cults come up short when compared to our glorious selves. :D
MarkHall 09-06-07, 05:47 PM	-The fourth wall trembles in my presence. Beano, man. It'll clear that up.
Lord Karsus 09-06-07, 06:29 PM	No doubt. I'm just sayin that cults come up short when compared to our glorious selves. :D -Well, that's because I love and cherish my Hands like a firstborn, if I had a firstborn. The rest of the Kult of Karsus is loved and cherish like the rest of my would-be children. Beano, man. It'll clear that up. -You'd best give that to KtM, with his burritos and all...
The WarOverlord 09-07-07, 01:46 AM	Hello everyone, I have a fun little question to ask you all. In your opinion who do you think is the most powerful person/creature in all of Faerun? Tell me his/her/its name and why do you think so. But please nothing like your own PCs, demi-gods, deities their avatars or the rest of that ilk. Look forward to hearing from everyone!! Take care, Anthony anthonyrnycrpg@yahoo.com The Consciousness that is "Undermountain" (Halaster) Add that there are at least 3 clones and many "projections" and and many sirculums? of Halater running around Under Mountain, traveling the Planes, and going about Halaster's business he is very hard to kill permanently and is Eternal and Unbeatable in his "Home Plane" that is controlled, manipulated, alterered, and maintained by "his" sheer will.
Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich 09-07-07, 06:11 AM	The Consciousness that is "Undermountain" (Halaster) Add that there are at least 3 clones and many "projections" and and many sirculums? of Halater running around Under Mountain, traveling the Planes, and going about Halaster's business he is very hard to kill permanently and is Eternal and Unbeatable in his "Home Plane" that is controlled, manipulated, alterered, and maintained by "his" sheer will. So...... Name one person who would beat Larloch in his warlock`s crypt. Most of the top mages are going to be pimped out in their own home where their spellpools and accessories are. Think in terms of Ģf these 2 met in an open field`.
ikki 09-07-07, 06:51 AM	How about a random warlock 7/thrall of Fraz-Urb'luu 10 ? With their innate 10th level ability -alter reality, they can create 25.000 gold a day, thats over 9 million in a year! Just pray one doesn't go and get creative, crafting ice assassins of himself.. ..yeah, requiring some assistance, but with all that cash around! Or your average "LE" cleric 10/thaumaturge 5 -keeping say a trio of efreti.. thats even more cash, 81 million gp a year :D But at the barest minimum, of ONE, at 27 million. All this buys really ungodly equipment, allies and troops.. castles etc. Like perhaps a THINGY, capable of uniting RODS OF EXCELLENT MAGIC, at 2000xp each a day.. not that much.. but get 100 of those rods ;) A mere 60 million.. and you have 200.000xp a day to use on say wishes.. Thats a instant 2.5million gp item a day (twice the xp cost for items). ...or several MORE rods :D ..with a 4% daily powergrowth, you can quickly see where the guys power is headed in a year or so. Just uysing a simple formula, doubling at ~70%.. ie every 18 days.. Thats 20 doublings in a year! ..2, 4, 8, 16, 32... Thats a one MILLION times the original power in a mere year!!!!! Ie magical stuff costing up to 2,5 TRILLION gp in one wish :D Need we extrapolate where we are after a decade? thats some 60 zeroes added to the previous number.. I believe thats enough to kill all life on toril with a single wish for coppercoins :D Infact, it just might break the crystal sphere too :D ..me, a munchkin??? How DARE you! :P
ikki 09-07-07, 09:26 AM	ofcourse, same trick can be pulled by anyone with summon monster VII.. efreti are on that list, and they do just as you tell them to. If using tricky efreti, just get high sense motive and knowledge planes & diplomacy, those skills should cover getting the wish right.
ShadezofDis 09-07-07, 09:49 AM	If using tricky efreti, just get high sense motive and knowledge planes & diplomacy, those skills should cover getting the wish right. It's not the Efreti that makes the wish tricky, it's the wish itself. Wishes have been historically noted as being VERY difficult to word so that you get the results you intend. Anyhow, that's not a sustainable plan anyhow, you'd debase the value of gold locally at first and then globally after several years. Which would lead to some VERY widespread chaos. If you got that far, because there sure would be a lot of interested parties investigating where this massive fountain of gold was coming from. :)
ShadezofDis 09-07-07, 09:51 AM	-Well, that's because I love and cherish my Hands like a firstborn, if I had a firstborn. Awwwww :embarrass
ikki 09-07-07, 12:19 PM	It's not the Efreti that makes the wish tricky, it's the wish itself. Wishes have been historically noted as being VERY difficult to word so that you get the results you intend. Anyhow, that's not a sustainable plan anyhow, you'd debase the value of gold locally at first and then globally after several years. Which would lead to some VERY widespread chaos. If you got that far, because there sure would be a lot of interested parties investigating where this massive fountain of gold was coming from. :) Well, after that initial purchase, at say union/sigil.. such sums being uncommon but certainly not unheard of... you don't really need to interact with the rest of reality at all, being perfectly capable of spinning your own realities... innumerable demiplanes filled with all stuff you could ever want. I assume you can wish for golems too, being items.. sort of.. Now gold is already heavily inflated, remembering that gold sell in this world at €20/g, or €200/gold coin.
ShadezofDis 09-07-07, 12:30 PM	Well, after that initial purchase, at say union/sigil.. such sums being uncommon but certainly not unheard of... you don't really need to interact with the rest of reality at all, being perfectly capable of spinning your own realities... innumerable demiplanes filled with all stuff you could ever want. I assume you can wish for golems too, being items.. sort of.. Now gold is already heavily inflated, remembering that gold sell in this world at €20/g, or €200/gold coin. Well, our world economics don't really correlate with FR economics but the phenomena would be the same here. If there was a huge influx of gold into the market then the value of gold would drop. That's all I'm saying there. :) As for creating demiplanes, hobnobbing in Sigil and the rest. . . well, then you get into different ball game. You wouldn't really be able to dodge the rest of reality unless what you were doing didn't really effect the rest of reality, once you start effecting the rest of reality then reality will concern itself with you. However, the basis of your theory is sound, it just doesn't create a tenable situation IMO. :) Oh, and I'd have to reread Wish in order to definitely say you could create golems and other things with it but AFAIK it wouldn't be a big problem (beyond the wording of the wish).
ikki 09-07-07, 02:15 PM	correct me if im wrong, but wasnt that wording more of an issue in 2nd edition, since then its far more straight forward if asking in line with the standards given? And those uses are along in line. Wish does afterall have the power to do far more, like unmaking gods etc.. but thats when the wording becomes an issue. Thats how ive understood 3rd & 3.5ed
ShadezofDis 09-07-07, 03:51 PM	correct me if im wrong, but wasnt that wording more of an issue in 2nd edition, since then its far more straight forward if asking in line with the standards given? And those uses are along in line. Wish does afterall have the power to do far more, like unmaking gods etc.. but thats when the wording becomes an issue. Thats how ive understood 3rd & 3.5ed Seems to be the case, probably due to people disliking the difficulty in using wishes. So, going by RAW then, the standard "wishes" sound like they wouldn't need to be detailed anything beyond that list would need to be, as far as I can tell. I wouldn't say the a Wish has the power to unmake a god, gods grant the miracle spell and have the ability to use Wish themselves but I get what you're saying. :) I just think it's a lame cop out (by Wizards, not by you). ;)
captaincarot 09-08-07, 08:27 AM	correct me if im wrong, but wasnt that wording more of an issue in 2nd edition, since then its far more straight forward if asking in line with the standards given? it actually originates in first editions application of the pan universal law. be careful what you wish for it may just come true. thus once you have wished it the universe (or DM in the case of the game) gets to sit down mull it over and see exactly what you wished for, then give it to you. usually accompanied by groans and curses from the players and big cheesy grins from me. this is also accompanied by the law of the ring of 3 wishes, use the first wish to make the wish. use the second wish to un do the damage that the first wish did to you. use the 3rd wish to wish that you had never found the ring in the first place, which takes you back to the time just before you found it (and with a cruel dm), having forgotten all about the events which subsequently happened, thus letting you do it all over again. note to dm's anyone actually making this happen to their group should be prepared for a rain of projectiles which may unclude dice, pencils, pencil sharpeners, earser and on one rather alarming occasion a half eaten hotdog. though with a bit of luck they can also inclde totally untouched doughnuts.
The WarOverlord 09-10-07, 11:21 AM	So...... Name one person who would beat Larloch in his warlock`s crypt. Most of the top mages are going to be pimped out in their own home where their spellpools and accessories are. Think in terms of Ģf these 2 met in an open field`. Not so much a Person, but what that person was carrying I'd say a +7 to hit/attack Silver 2 Handed Sword of Greater Disruption, with Death Eternal Foe and a Anti magic Shell protections on it....call it "Templar's Fury" Likewise a "Magebane" Sword would not only disapate anything the Lich could thow at the weilder but the sucker sucks spells and Mage levels from the victim Wonder if it's possible to create a Silver Halberd that casts Raise Dead everytime it hits it's target...or maybye Heal.?
ShadezofDis 09-10-07, 11:25 AM	Not so much a Person, but what that person was carrying I'd say a +7 to hit/attack Silver 2 Handed Sword of Greater Disruption, with Death Eternal Foe and a Anti magic Shell protections on it....call it "Templar's Fury" Likewise a "Magebane" Sword would not only disapate anything the Lich could thow at the weilder but the sucker sucks spells and Mage levels from the victim Wonder if it's possible to create a Silver Halberd that casts Raise Dead everytime it hits it's target...or maybye Heal.? Ummm. . . I mean, it's possible for someone to get their hands on such things but it's more than likely that Larloch has either created items of a like power level or has a stash of them. If you're under the impression that you can get one by Larloch then you're sorely mistaken. :)
GothicDan 09-10-07, 11:44 AM	We know in canon there's spells made to break Anti-Magic fields, too.
Lord Karsus 09-10-07, 12:34 PM	We know in canon there's spells made to break Anti-Magic fields, too. -Those who take the Initiate of Mystra feat can attempt to cast spells within Anti-Magic zones, as well.
MarkusTay63 09-10-07, 02:50 PM	Who is the most powerful being/creature in Faerun? In 4th edition? A 5th level mage by the name of Bob...... :rolleyes:
MerrikCale 09-10-07, 11:04 PM	Who is the most powerful being/creature in Faerun? In 4th edition? A 5th level mage by the name of Bob...... :rolleyes: Salvatore?
The WarOverlord 09-11-07, 10:32 AM	Ummm. . . I mean, it's possible for someone to get their hands on such things but it's more than likely that Larloch has either created items of a like power level or has a stash of them. If you're under the impression that you can get one by Larloch then you're sorely mistaken. :) Well, he'd have to "make his check against wisdom" to know he was about to get He\is ass kicked by a "Deathslayer" or "Mage Hunter" wielding such weapons. But that isn't really the point concerning the impending battle, the real question is why would anyone want to bother Larloch who seems to keep to itself and seems happy to be wallowing in it's flying crypt. I mean, as someone that has seen 1st addition and 2nd addition I have a 60th level Mage PC (thats 14 levels higher then the Lich) that is "retired" and happy to wallow in the "Library of infinite Knowledge" helping patrons find the books they need (A Librarian basically) and a 72nd Level Cavalier whose main Avatar steers it's Flying Fortress from place to place (a mini-realm of Merchants) and is content to listen to the counsel of Lords and Ladies do their business from behind the curtain while yet an other Avatar provides counsel to a Depot City. At that high of a level my PCs don't just go wondering off and whacking things (they are "retired") and I have no doubt that the 46th level Mage Lich has lofty goals and subtle schemes going on that wouldn't and shouldn't bring some all guts and little brains low to medium party coming to hack it to bits and likey the Lich either being ammused and shooing them away with a teleport spell or being totally peeved and blasting them to ashes. At such High levels Diplomacy and Negotiations and truces and compromises are more common then doing something that could cause total war or undue Carnage (Do you have any idea how much damage a Fireball cast by a 60th level Mage would do?) More likely if Larloch was caught doing something "naughty" there would be diplomatic envoys by Leaders or countries or even the "powers that be" over a straight forward Assault considering the Lich has an Army of Undead at his command and could raise more defenses given time (Stroll through the "Battle of the Bones"?)
Eli_the_Tanner 09-11-07, 11:45 AM	Not so much a Person, but what that person was carrying I'd say a +7 to hit/attack Silver 2 Handed Sword of Greater Disruption, with Death Eternal Foe and a Anti magic Shell protections on it....call it "Templar's Fury" Likewise a "Magebane" Sword would not only disapate anything the Lich could thow at the weilder but the sucker sucks spells and Mage levels from the victim Wonder if it's possible to create a Silver Halberd that casts Raise Dead everytime it hits it's target...or maybye Heal.? To think someone with a colourful sword could challenge a wizard of Larloch's level is abit far fetched. Just wandering into Warlch's Crypt waving a sword around is not a way to kill a powerful lich, netherese arcanist and plot device like Larloch. Well, he'd have to "make his check against wisdom" to know he was about to get He\is ass kicked by a "Deathslayer" or "Mage Hunter" wielding such weapons. But that isn't really the point concerning the impending battle, the real question is why would anyone want to bother Larloch who seems to keep to itself and seems happy to be wallowing in it's flying crypt. I thought Larloch_the_Ultra_Lich had asked you to try and prove whether someone 'could' defeat larloch on his home turf, not whether they 'should'. Ed has gone on record saying that Larloch is there to show the characters that there is always someone better than them, who they shouldn't mess with. I mean, as someone that has seen 1st addition and 2nd addition I have a 60th level Mage PC (thats 14 levels higher then the Lich) that is "retired" and happy to wallow in the "Library of infinite Knowledge" helping patrons find the books they need (A Librarian basically) and a 72nd Level Cavalier whose main Avatar steers it's Flying Fortress from place to place (a mini-realm of Merchants) and is content to listen to the counsel of Lords and Ladies do their business from behind the curtain while yet an other Avatar provides counsel to a Depot City. At that high of a level my PCs don't just go wondering off and whacking things (they are "retired") and I have no doubt that the 46th level Mage Lich has lofty goals and subtle schemes going on that wouldn't and shouldn't bring some all guts and little brains low to medium party coming to hack it to bits and likey the Lich either being ammused and shooing them away with a teleport spell or being totally peeved and blasting them to ashes. At such High levels Diplomacy and Negotiations and truces and compromises are more common then doing something that could cause total war or undue Carnage All these points are valid, this is one of the reasons it's so hard to measure 'power' ir extends beyond mere spell-slinging or sword-swinging - but I'm sure this point has been raised many times before in this thread. (Do you have any idea how much damage a Fireball cast by a 60th level Mage would do?) 10d6?? More likely if Larloch was caught doing something "naughty" there would be diplomatic envoys by Leaders or countries or even the "powers that be" over a straight forward Assault considering the Lich has an Army of Undead at his command and could raise more defenses given time (Stroll through the "Battle of the Bones"?) True, but if Larloch decided to do something 'naughty' I imagine he would do it in such a way that others were either unable to stop it or unaware of it occuring - see his mind-reading portals he's been working on!:)
MarkusTay63 09-11-07, 01:20 PM	Salvatore?No,no,no... he's obviously taking Ao's place in 4e. :rolleyes: I'm talking about the accountant on the 3rd floor who alwys brings the 'good' Doritoes to a session. ;)
Lord Karsus 09-12-07, 11:25 AM	No,no,no... he's obviously taking Ao's place in 4e. :rolleyes: I'm talking about the accountant on the 3rd floor who alwys brings the 'good' Doritoes to a session. ;) -Tisk...No one ever brings Doritoes when I play D&D...:(
TheMorningLord 09-16-07, 03:42 PM	hello. The most powerful creature in the realms is The Lady Of Pain Now I know that you think that she is divine but she isnt think about it she never Faded from lack of worship and there is no one who worship her that means she isnt a godess and she didnt killed Ao even that she is more powerful than him that means that she isnt a supreme power now if she is not a supreme power and not a godess she isnt divine
Eli_the_Tanner 09-16-07, 05:28 PM	The most powerful creature in the realms is The Lady Of Pain Except she doesn't come from Faerun, she lives in Sigil.
Lord Karsus 09-16-07, 10:58 PM	-That's just a minor, little detail. ;)
TheMorningLord 09-17-07, 10:41 AM	Except she doesn't come from Faerun, she lives in Sigil. Yes its true that the lady of pain does "live" in sigil but being so powerful the lady of pain does not actually have a house in sigil she lives in the true being of sigil and if you dont know , the true being of sigil is the city of teleports doors and conections that means that sigil is conected to every place including faerun and if thats not enough the lady of pain have the power of the porfolio of Aoskar which is teleporting that means that she can go to any place any time
Lord Karsus 09-17-07, 01:00 PM	Yes its true that the lady of pain does "live" in sigil but being so powerful the lady of pain does not actually have a house in sigil she lives in the true being of sigil -No one knows what the Lady does when she is not being seen "in public". and if you dont know , the true being of sigil is the city of teleports doors and conections that means that sigil is conected to every place including faerun and if thats not enough the lady of pain have the power of the porfolio of Aoskar which is teleporting that means that she can go to any place any time -The Lady is not a divine entity, and thus, she does not have power over Aoskar's former portfolios. As has been stated numerous times in the past, no one knows what exactly the Lady is. -And, I believe it is theorized that the Lady is quite powerless outside of Sigil, if she can even leave Sigil in the first place.
TheMorningLord 09-17-07, 03:31 PM	-No one knows what the Lady does when she is not being seen "in public". . 1)its true that no one knows what she is doing in her own "private life" but it is sure that there is no house or palace for her, I think that her realy home is the true being of sigil-because the entity "Lady of pain" is two powerful and great to have a normal home - -The Lady is not a divine entity, and thus, she does not have power over Aoskar's former portfolios. As has been stated numerous times in the past, no one knows what exactly the Lady is. . 2)I didnt sad she was divine but she is able in any time to clame the portfolio of teleports and become divine as any other creature that once killed a divine power, now the lady of pain is not a godess but if she will one day change her mind the portfolio of teleports will be open for her I myself does not think this day will come because she is much stronger than any other divine powers - -And, I believe it is theorized that the Lady is quite powerless outside of Sigil, if she can even leave Sigil in the first place. .[/QUOTE] 3)we cant really know that but all over the forgotten realms there is no power that is able to force her do nothing including not living sigil I think that the job of the lady is to keep any strong entity out of sigil so no one will think of taking the universe down from the teleports my evidence is that the lady didnt controlled sigil in the begining but sigil alone maked her the ruler that all means that she will never want to get out of sigil so we are talking about a not importent part
Lord Karsus 09-17-07, 08:42 PM	1)its true that no one knows what she is doing in her own "private life" but it is sure that there is no house or palace for her, I think that her realy home is the true being of sigil-because the entity "Lady of pain" is two powerful and great to have a normal home. -As I said before, we don't know what the Lady does when it is not making public announcements, and all that jazz. Theoretically, it could have a normal dormicile that few save for the dabus' know about, though unlikely. 2)I didnt sad she was divine but she is able in any time to clame the portfolio of teleports and become divine as any other creature that once killed a divine power, now the lady of pain is not a godess but if she will one day change her mind the portfolio of teleports will be open for her I myself does not think this day will come because she is much stronger than any other divine powers -We do not know if said portfolio is availible currently. Nor does the Lady have any motive to claim it, in the first place, if she can do so to begin with. -And, we cannot compare the "strength level" of the Lady with other deities, since the Lady is obviously a special case. 3)we cant really know that but all over the forgotten realms there is no power that is able to force her do nothing including not living sigil I think that the job of the lady is to keep any strong entity out of sigil so no one will think of taking the universe down from the teleports my evidence is that the lady didnt controlled sigil in the begining but sigil alone maked her the ruler that all means that she will never want to get out of sigil so we are talking about a not importent part -As I said before, we cannot accuratley compare the Lady and deities. One reason the Lady of Pain stays in Sigil may be because she cannot exist elsewhere. Another could be because, as I stated, outside of Sigil, it is utterly powerless.
ShadezofDis 09-18-07, 09:43 AM	Milord, Though you are a disembodied soul you may still suffer damage from repeated :banghead: Sometimes walls are just too thick, you've done an admirable job though. :D
TheMorningLord 09-18-07, 10:13 AM	lord karsus I can see that you are a good player but there is some things that I cant agree with you : 1)I agree with you that we cant know what she is doing but it is a fact that all over sigil there no one who saw a house for the lady Now because we both agreed that she never go out of sigil my personal opinion to were she "lives" is the true being of sigil 2)We do know that there is no deity that have the portfolio of Aoskar - this means that the portfolio of teleports is still available to be claimed by the true "master" of the portfolio(the lady) but I agree that there is no reason to clame it 3)True, but not every divine power has a "strength level" 4)its true that we cant compare the lady and the deities, but the lady can go out of sigil and there is no one that is able to argue with her about it and sigil is not a energy source so the powers of the lady are private that means that she have her powers any were
Lord Karsus 09-18-07, 11:09 AM	Milord, Though you are a disembodied soul you may still suffer damage from repeated :banghead: Sometimes walls are just too thick, you've done an admirable job though. :D -I just like arguing, and as everyone knows, when I know that I am right, I keep chugging away until the conversation stops. That's why I get into scuffles with people like Xun, or Francius, and so on. ;) 1)I agree with you that we cant know what she is doing but it is a fact that all over sigil there no one who saw a house for the lady -The lack of evidence, however, does not result in a lack of truth. One theory about the origins of the Lady is that it is actually a prisoner in Sigil, somewhere. 2)We do know that there is no deity that have the portfolio of Aoskar - this means that the portfolio of teleports is still available to be claimed by the true "master" of the portfolio(the lady) but I agree that there is no reason to clame it -A portfolio does not necessarily have to be claimed by the being that sucessfully destroyed a deity. If a portfilio is "floating around", unclaimed, a deity can try to sucessfully petition their superior (in the case of the realms, Ao), and try to subsume the portfolio. 3)True, but not every divine power has a "strength level" -Um...Yes, they do. Everything has a strength level, from the smallest flea to Ao himself, and everything inbetween. 4)its true that we cant compare the lady and the deities, but the lady can go out of sigil and there is no one that is able to argue with her about it and sigil is not a energy source so the powers of the lady are private that means that she have her powers any were -Sources? Prove to me what you just said. Give me a specific page in a Planescape sourcebook that says that the Lady of Pain can leave Sigil, and that her powers are availible to her anywhere...:rolleyes:
ShadezofDis 09-18-07, 11:21 AM	1)I agree with you that we cant know what she is doing but it is a fact that all over sigil there no one who saw a house for the lady Now because we both agreed that she never go out of sigil my personal opinion to were she "lives" is the true being of sigil There is no directory map available for Sigil. Further, Sigil is SO LARGE that it is impossible to say that ANY being has been everywhere and knows where everything is. And yes, that includes immortal outsiders, they can't get everywhere in Sigil. Also, has it ever been stated where the Lady's prison is located? As far as I recall there isn't much known about the prison. Damn. . . now I'm :banghead: It's . . . uh. . . just because I'm such a loyal Hand. . . yeah, that's the ticket. ;)
Eli_the_Tanner 09-18-07, 11:33 AM	There are a number of 'theories' flying around about the Lady of Pain. The only demonstration of power that has been noted is her ability to stop anything from intruding upon the city of doors, the ability to create demiplanes(at will) and that she possess no worshippers. In fact she actively destroys those who dare pray to her - something even AO doesn't do. Furthermore it has been noted that the Lady of Pain has never exhibited any power outside of Sigil Among the theories of the Lady of Pain are: She might be the personification of Sigil itself. A reformed demon lord. A being Htched from a Dabus egg by the Dragon god Io. An aspect of the dead god of portals (Dalt) She is a prisoner trapped within Sigil, which in turn, is her cage(postulated in the PLANESCAPE:Torment video game) - as our Lord Karsus pointed out above. Fianlly there is the theory that the Lady of Pain is one of the unknowable Ancient Brethren - manifistations of primal forces and laws of the universe - whom governs the philosophical status quo in Sigil, ensuring no one group takes control(hence the godly ban), lest the multiverse be fundamentally changed(proposed in Die Vecan Die). Note :- The Ancient Brethren(also known as the Elders) are thought to possibly include beings such as Asmodeus, the Serpent(Vecna's mysterious master), The Lady of Pain and Jazirian(god of the couatls) Personally, I imagine no one theory holds true and that The Lady of Pain is a combination of a number of the afore-mentioned possibilities along with a few that haven't been mentioned. However at the end of the day these are still all theories(however compelling) are still just theories, meaning that we still don't know or are unable to prove any of theseclaims. What we do know[first paragragh] is still debatable as we don't know if anything that has been demonstraed by the Lady of Pain is the full extent of her power, another force working behind the scenes, etc, etc. Suffice to say: She is a being both mysterious and powerful, who's power is only exceeded by her mystery.
MarkusTay63 09-18-07, 02:22 PM	I'm with EtT - She is a being I refer to as a conceptual - a being on the same level as Titans (greater), Jotun, and overgods. Those were, in turn, created by the Elder Gods (Cthulhu, Khronos, Ymir, Ptah, Jazirian and Ahriman {Asmodeus}, etc...), in order to help them create the universe. So she's pretty high up there - an Overgod of her own private Cosmos, Sigil. However, I don't think she can leave unless given permission by an even higher being (and the same can be said of Io, Ao, etc...) An Overgod is the Avatar of the plane (crystal sphere) itself, and therefore cannot step outside itself. When you think Overgod, think Eternity from Marvel Comics (who has met Overgods from OTHER Universes, like the Beyonder and the DC Comics Universe's Avatar). My basis for these suppositions - she can bar gods from her Realm, ergo she MUST be something greater.
Lord Karsus 09-18-07, 04:14 PM	Among the theories of the Lady of Pain are: She might be the personification of Sigil itself. A reformed demon lord. A being Htched from a Dabus egg by the Dragon god Io. An aspect of the dead god of portals (Dalt) She is a prisoner trapped within Sigil, which in turn, is her cage(postulated in the PLANESCAPE:Torment video game) - as our Lord Karsus pointed out above. Fianlly there is the theory that the Lady of Pain is one of the unknowable Ancient Brethren - manifistations of primal forces and laws of the universe - whom governs the philosophical status quo in Sigil, ensuring no one group takes control(hence the godly ban), lest the multiverse be fundamentally changed(proposed in Die Vecan Die). Note :- The Ancient Brethren(also known as the Elders) are thought to possibly include beings such as Asmodeus, the Serpent(Vecna's mysterious master), The Lady of Pain and Jazirian(god of the couatls). -You forgot the one where she is a bunch of chipmunks hiding behind the infamous bladed shield. :cool:
TheMorningLord 09-19-07, 07:14 AM	-I just like arguing, and as everyone knows, when I know that I am right, I keep chugging away until the conversation stops. That's why I get into scuffles with people like Xun, or Francius, and so on. ;) -The lack of evidence, however, does not result in a lack of truth. One theory about the origins of the Lady is that it is actually a prisoner in Sigil, somewhere. -A portfolio does not necessarily have to be claimed by the being that sucessfully destroyed a deity. If a portfilio is "floating around", unclaimed, a deity can try to sucessfully petition their superior (in the case of the realms, Ao), and try to subsume the portfolio. -Um...Yes, they do. Everything has a strength level, from the smallest flea to Ao himself, and everything inbetween. -Sources? Prove to me what you just said. Give me a specific page in a Planescape sourcebook that says that the Lady of Pain can leave Sigil, and that her powers are availible to her anywhere...:rolleyes: if you will prove me that im wrong I will give you your prove
The WarOverlord 09-19-07, 08:56 AM	Except she doesn't come from Faerun, she lives in Sigil. Most of the Forgotten Realms godlings are infact "intelopers' that Ao either gave the okay, rather directly or indirectly to mettle in the affairs of Forgotten Realms as it was up to the Time of Troubles a definate "Closed Realmspace" that Avatars couldn't get into without being severed from their Primary godling body like the Egyptain goddlings that came with their people In fact I Think Tyr is a Norse godling and Lovitor is a Finnish godling
Lord Karsus 09-19-07, 09:24 AM	if you will prove me that im wrong I will give you your prove -I already did. ;) Most of the Forgotten Realms godlings are infact "intelopers'... -I wouldn't say 'most', but there are a great deal of interloper deities who have since become native. That's excluding multispheric Demihuman and Monsterous deities, of course.
ShadezofDis 09-19-07, 09:27 AM	if you will prove me that im wrong I will give you your prove This is like asking someone to prove or to disprove something that cannot be proven or disproved. You are more than welcome to your opinion on the subject, however it is just an opinion. Last, the Lady of Pain is a Planescape based entity and is excluded from the OP's question based on that. Markus, where did you get the information that an "overgod" was the avatar of a crystal sphere (or plane, as the case seems to be)? Anyhow, The Lady of Pain may just be completely different from gods. That does not mean she's "greater", all we really know is that she can bar gods from Sigil and she can send beings inside of Sigil into a prison. I'd love to see some sources that expand upon this (well, love is a strong word, I'd be interested and hopefully not disappointed in the decisions made concerning the Lady *g*) but I have no knowledge what those sources are.
Lord Karsus 09-19-07, 09:30 AM	Markus, where did you get the information that an "overgod" was the avatar of a crystal sphere (or plane, as the case seems to be)? -I don't believe that's canon, but I've used the concept in my own setting. Basically, the overdeity, or whatever it is you want to call it, is a "physical" manifestation of the Crystal Sphere itself.
ShadezofDis 09-19-07, 10:01 AM	-I don't believe that's canon, but I've used the concept in my own setting. Basically, the overdeity, or whatever it is you want to call it, is a "physical" manifestation of the Crystal Sphere itself. That's cool, I don't mind the idea itself and I use a similar idea in my theories on the Great Tree. Though my theories mainly have to do with the "overdeity" being the custodian of the Crystal Sphere, with main job of the "overdeity" being the protection of the Crystal Sphere from outside influences (ie. making sure the Planes don't "eat" the Crystal Sphere). :)
MarkusTay63 09-19-07, 10:59 AM	Yeah, LK got it right. BTW, a sphere/plane is not neccessarily destroyed if it's Avatar ceases to exist - it just means no one's at the helm. I have a bunch of theoretical rules about how all that works, but its way too high level to ever make it into game-play. Let's just say that most of the time when an Overgod is destroyed, it's because the sphere/plane itself has died. The planet or worlds therein are just lifeless husks, with little or no atmosphere. Although this is usually caused by god-wars, it is not always the case (as in the case of Threnody). I would imagine a sphere without an Overgod running things (a consciousness) would be on an eventual downward spiral to doom, because then just any old god can 'walk-in' and muck around with stuff. But like I said (and LK), this is all conceptual stuff that exists in my head, and really doesn't effect mortals accept in the case of a cosmic catastrophe.
Eli_the_Tanner 09-19-07, 03:53 PM	Where exactly does Sigil fit into the Great Tree cosmology of Forgotten Realms? I was under the impression that it was part of the Great Wheel Cosmology and that the fabled city of doors has links to areas in the realms. Thereby, as ShadezofDis pointed out and I failed to elaborate on earlier, The Lady of Pain is not a power in Faerun. In fact it can be speculated that she has no power outside of Sigil, rendering her powerless in respect to the question. i.e. sigil is not in Faerun, the lady of pain has no power outside of Sigil; Therefore she has no power in Faerun. -Again this is only backed up by a lack of evidence for the contrary. A poor position to argue from really.:(