Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eli_the_Tanner 07-26-07, 10:57 AM	I've been looking at a number of wizards in the realms and it seems that many of them appear to be living well into their 100's despite being human and in some cases non-epic. How do so many wizards attain such seeming longevity without being Chosen, elven etc. Is there an in-game explanation for this, a specific spell, ar ritual. It seems a bit too common to be that big of a mystery.
Red_Wizard 07-26-07, 11:08 AM	There are any number of way's for a wizard to prolong his life, most specifically through the use of various spells. Ensul's soul theft, Steal Life, and Wish are blatantly obvious ones that come to mind. IMO Steal Life is the best choice of them all for the specific purpose of reducing ageing effects, but I know Delendir will disagree with this as per the other thread found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=828850&page=2) For the most part though, there aren't that many Wizards in the realms of significant age that aren't liches, chosen, or noted as using potions of Longevity.
Eli_the_Tanner 07-26-07, 12:49 PM	Hmm. Thanks for the reply and the link. I don't think Steal life is for a wizard who dislikes strapping a kobold to a rock and slowly draining the life from him just for younger, healthier looking skin. I prefer the idea of the wizard who likes a quiet night by the fire whilst reading 'Volo's guide to putting your feet up' and sipping on a relaxing mug of Longevity.:whatsthis Are there any official stats for potions of Longevity in 3.5 and do you know the phrasing needed for a wish to do the job?
Red_Wizard 07-26-07, 01:00 PM	Potions of longevity have been nerfed rules wise for 3.x, though I can't remember the canon reasoning behind it at the moment. Stupid work bogging down the ol' brain. Something to do with the ToT IIRC. :P The downsides of Longevity potions of course remains that every time one is imbibed there is a persistent chance it will have the opposite effects to those desired, instead aging you rapidly back to your true age. Not a pleasant prospect if you have lived past your races average lifespan. Even managing to survive at the new age would still require a fort save of some exponentially difficult degree-- replacing the old system shock roll-- to see if you can then survive the rapid transformation from the magically enhance age, to your true age. For a wish now, I'd recommend something along the lines of "I wish to become X number of years younger physically, while losing none of the power/ experiance/ mental capacity etc. gained". Or "I wish to change my lifespan and aging rate to that of a __________ (select preferred long live species and insert here)"
Selk 07-26-07, 04:33 PM	The how is pretty straightforward. I think the why is more interesting. Most wizards come to understand they can never achieve a comprehensive understanding of the art within a normal lifespan. It's the provenance of the long lived (elves) or the immortal (liches). Ambitious but mortal wizards are just keeping up with the Joneses. Those with a high wisdom score probably know when to hang up the pointed hat -- but the myopic ones, they can go on foreva' ;) The good gods of magic are probably watching out for wizards whose quest for knowledge turns towards a quest for power. Life prolonging potions and Lichdom are two sides of the same coin.
The Simbul 07-26-07, 05:16 PM	What wizards are you referring to? Elminster, the Seven Sisters, and the rest of Mystra's Chosen have immunity to aging. Larloch, Szass Tam, Aumvor, and Saharel are undead. The Srinshee was rejuvenated by Mystra before the fall of Myth Drannor, and may have slumbered in stasis for some time since. Halaster Blackcloak has been able to halt his aging process in Undermountain thanks to its magical entrenchments. Yaphyll, the Zulkiress of Divination has used an amulet of perpetual youth. Telamont Tanthul has used wish spells. Tabra cast Ioulaum's longevity. Maskar Wands of Waterdeep and Lady Yhelbruna of Rashemen have used longevity potions or elixirs. Those are several examples spelled out in the lore.
Eli_the_Tanner 07-26-07, 11:27 PM	What wizards are you referring to? I was referring to many of the spellcasters that you have mentioned such as the zulkirs of Thay and others you have not such as Manshoon, Sememmon, Vanderghast etc. Excluding such beings as chosen, the naturally long-lived(elves) and undead, the ability to live beyond ones natural lifespan seems curiously unexplained by the current rules. Forgotten Realms being perhaps the most open with such information however. Beyond explanations in novels and converting 2nd edition information, the current edition takes the ability for spellcasters to find, develop & implement longevity as a given. Such items as potions of longevity and amulets of perpetual youth are missing from current rulebooks and character write-ups. I know such things are rare and the domain of the powerful (or at least rich!) but it seems this info has been brushed under the carpet, perhaps for the sake of game balance!?!
The Simbul 07-27-07, 12:34 AM	I was referring to many of the spellcasters that you have mentioned such as the zulkirs of Thay and others you have not such as Manshoon, Sememmon, Vanderghast etc. Excluding such beings as chosen, the naturally long-lived(elves) and undead, the ability to live beyond ones natural lifespan seems curiously unexplained by the current rules. Forgotten Realms being perhaps the most open with such information however. Beyond explanations in novels and converting 2nd edition information, the current edition takes the ability for spellcasters to find, develop & implement longevity as a given. Such items as potions of longevity and amulets of perpetual youth are missing from current rulebooks and character write-ups. I know such things are rare and the domain of the powerful (or at least rich!) but it seems this info has been brushed under the carpet, perhaps for the sake of game balance!?!Yaphyll's amulet is mentioned in her biographical notes in Lords of Darkness, each of which provides a detail regarding their statistics and personality for each Zulkir-- though without giving full stat blocks. The same tome implies that wish spells (notably used by Telamont Tanthul) can provide longevity, at least to some degree. As for Maskar's potions, while absent from game lore they are noted in the novel Blackstaff, in a scene where he is brewing them. On a general note, just because something is not fully detailed in the rules does not mean it does not exist. We do not have a full write up of Mythanthor's create mythal, but that does not mean that such a spell never existed or was never cast. The reason why we do not have a potions of longevity or an amulet of perpetual youth fully detailed as magic items in the rules is because such items are not valuable in the context of an effective character level or challenge rating. In fact, it is a dual-edged sword to create such an item, since overpricing it is a useless expenditure on the part of the PC that cuts into their wealth limits (when they could just as easily create a new character in the fast-paced level up 3E system), whereas pricing it too low means that everyone would be nearly immortal. In fact, if you take a look at Tasmia's heart in the Player's Guide to Faerûn and reverse-calculate it's market price you will find that the "cost" of its life extending property is virtually non-existent (10,000gp by my calculations), which is indicative that longevity has little impact on the CR of an enemy or the ECL of your character. In the absence of anything to outright spell out why they have lived so long, simply chalk it up to a well-worded wish spell, or a wondrous item (call it an elixir of longevityfor consistency with 3E/3.5) that is a single use of wish as a use-actived item for its cost formula, and perhaps has some danger that it can backfire (such as a very low DC fort save). Virtually every wizard we have mentioned thus far is capable of casting a wish, and even those who cannot could likely acquire a scroll, or ring, or extraplanar entity to provide such a spell.
Faraer 07-27-07, 02:04 AM	On a general note, just because something is not fully detailed in the rules does not mean it does not exist.Indeed, most spells, villages, songs, and of course people in the Realms have never been mentioned at all.The reason why we do not have a potions of longevity or an amulet of perpetual youth fully detailed as magic items in the rules is because such items are not valuable in the context of an effective character level or challenge rating.Yes, they fall outside the short-term encounter-defeating measure of 3E 'game balance'. Compare to the pre-3E ageing effect of haste, which is awful in a roleplaying-over-rules campaign, negligible in a hack-and-slash one.In the absence of anything to outright spell out why they have lived so long . . .Potions of longevity are the method most often mentioned in Realmslore.
GothicDan 07-27-07, 04:39 AM	And while there's no exhaustive details of personalized artifice of new magical items or research of new spells such as in previous editions (in Realms materials as well as core), such activities continue to happen in the world regularly. Magic is part science and part art, both of which evolve with the time and in response to the people utilizing them. Of course, there will always be people who refuse to accept such 'loose interpretation' of the RAW as to make believable how some aspects of Faerunian culture works. And those same people would probably consider a tome that detailed such utility spells to be utterly worthless for game play. Either way, they win. I guess.
Old Sage 07-27-07, 04:42 AM	Potions of longevity are the method most often mentioned in Realmslore.Remembering also, that 'potions of longevity' still exist in the Realms despite rule changes, as Ed said back in May '05 - "...yes, there’s still longevity magic in the Realms. Rules changes don’t alter established lore. Even if your PCs can’t find or get potions of longevity, or you as players can’t find them in the rulebooks, it doesn’t mean NPCs in the established Realms (such as Mirt, Durnan, Filfaeril, and dozens more) didn’t find and imbibe (or even store, for future use) them in the past. Rules should never trump accumulated Realmslore (our collective imagined ‘reality’)."
Red_Wizard 07-27-07, 08:31 AM	I will note also that Szass Tam is a relativly young Lich and Yaphyll has her amulet, but outside of that all the other Zulkirs are appearing, and statted at normal ages for the human race. Most rest anywhere between mid 70's - 80's so life extending magic has yet to become a necessary issue. Semmemon has continued living and dieing through Stasis clones, and is only a little over 100 years old regardless so hardly in any worry yet. That being said, a single potion of Longevity could account for a continue youthful appearance. Manshoon is again using Potions of Longevity, and since his demise and rebirth he has had little need to worry further on the matter as he is fairly youthful in appearance again as well.
Eli_the_Tanner 07-27-07, 11:17 AM	Thank you all for your comments and information on how the various spellcasters of the realms acheive their long life-spans. I'm sure I could keep throwing out names and the boards exhaustive knowledge could give me all the information I need on how individuals have acheived longevity. (I've been writing this all down, so far) For such things, I think I'll be doing some personal research into realmslore, so as to not clutter the boards. I've got what I initially the wanted, the means by which spellcasters/high-level characters acheive long life and why it is not represented in the current rules system. However questions breed questions. How do these various methods interact with the effects of aging? Do some merely stave off the time of death and you get progresivly weaker, whilst others help to ignore the negative effects of aging(as Timeless body)? Do mental bonuses still acrue if you are being made younger i.e. kept below middle age. Finally if these difference do occur will that result in varying prices, levels, costs etc. of several of the items.....phew.
Faraer 07-27-07, 01:43 PM	It varies, yes but more often the latter, yes, yes.
Red_Wizard 07-27-07, 03:09 PM	Well negatives to stats will remain only if you do not halt the aging process before they begin to set in ie: middle age. Steal life specifically allows you to become younger, without losing any of what you have gained in the time period you take back, which is again yet another reason I prefer this spell.
Krash 07-28-07, 02:47 AM	As mentioned by a previous poster, Sememmon had previously enjoyed the benefit of having young, cloned bodies at his disposal. Things looked a bit grim for him aging-wise after his break with the Zhentarim, but his participation in the ritual showcased in the novel "Blackstaff" has no doubt added a decade or ten to his longevity. -- George Krashos
ElberethSilverleaf 07-29-07, 12:46 AM	Constant exposure to mystical energy may in some way also slightly retard aging.
Eli_the_Tanner 07-29-07, 08:51 AM	As mentioned by a previous poster, Sememmon had previously enjoyed the benefit of having young, cloned bodies at his disposal. Hi Krash, it was reading your recent article in the Dragon magazine that prompted this thread for me. Finding out Sememmon's age and his life made me wonder how do wizards like him live for such along time. Doesn't cloning retard ones level aswell as age, meaning if you want to stay young you will find it very hard to gain any more levels?.....A dent in any mages quest for power by staying young.
Krash 07-29-07, 10:37 AM	The answer to that is "yes, if you die a lot and use a lot of clones". Sememmon is on about his 6th clone since he was born, which isn't too bad. As I mentioned over at Candlekeep, he made his reputation as a "wildspell wizard" in the years before assuming control of Darkhold. Knowing that a clone was always waiting for him, he would take on (and take down) foes with reckless abandon. The word soon got out that if you messed with him, it was a "to the death" situation. Understandably that did much to cool the ardour of his foes. After a time, he found that such overt displays of power and spellmight weren't necessary anymore as most people kept well clear of him - that's when he honed his skills of intimidation and manipulation. -- George Krashos
Eli_the_Tanner 07-29-07, 06:42 PM	Thanks Krash for more glimses into the life of Sememmon, I'd love to know more about his past. Are there any books that I could get hold of that would tell me more, and about Manshoon aswell. How old is Sememmon physically? I take it, he is 140 at the moment(1374) but at what age would you place him physicaly, has he reached middle-aged despite cloning? If not, does that mean the majority of his cloning was done the mid-late 1260's. Has he remained at that level of wizard since then, with the occaosional rise of power before he needed another clone?
Zandilar 07-29-07, 07:12 PM	Heya, Thank you all for your comments and information on how the various spellcasters of the realms acheive their long life-spans. It's not just spellcasters who manage to stay young as well. Plenty of powerful ex-adventurers, and some never-were-adventurers have extended their lives as well, as was mentioned in Old Sage's quote of Ed Greenwood. For example - some of the more powerful women in Cormyr have used longevity potions. Myrmeen is around about 50 years old and has recently given birth to Vangerdahast's "heir" - which, while possible on Earth with our modern medicine, is hardly common and certainly discouraged by all modern obstetricians because of the many complications involved (plus the fact that the mother simply has a worse chance of living long enough to see her child grow up). Filfaeril looks far younger than her age might suggest. I am also fairly sure that Alusair might soon have to consider age-reversal/longevity potions if she wants to provide a "spare heir" for Cormyr (that, or some measure of divine intervention - she's almost 40). Then there's people like Mirt and Durnan. Adventurers of all stripes are probably wealthy enough or have found enough such potions throughout their adventuring careers to make almost anyone of any character class living past their normal racial lifespan more common than you'd think. @Red_Wizard - If I were the DM, this... "I wish to change my lifespan and aging rate to that of a __________ (select preferred long live species and insert here)" Would result in me changing said character to said race, undoing any benefits or penalties they'd already earned from aging in the process. Just think a human wizard of 50 years - changed into a Moon Elf of 50 years. Now, if you don't have moon elves physically aging at the same rate, hillarity ensues. :rofl: (But then, because I'm such a soft hearted DM, I'd probably say "Do you want to reconsider the wording of your wish?" - such extreme changes to a character can ruin the game for some players. (As I have found to my own detriment - never again a Deck of Many Things!))
El_Machinae 07-29-07, 08:05 PM	There's also just statistical selective pressure. You only notice the powerful long-lived ones because all the weaker short-lived ones couldn't get powerful in time.
starfalconkd 08-01-07, 08:05 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't old realms lore hint that the higher up members of the zhentarim (fzoul, manshoon, semmemon, etc) have access to some sort of magical pool that reverses their aging. Also, I believe, a similar pool is actually listed in the Undermountain II boxed set. It is located on the Wyllowood Level and several of Halaster's apprentices make or made use of it.
Red_Wizard 08-01-07, 08:23 PM	@Zandilar The wording is done in such a way that should the DM interperet it as a race changing wish, only the DM could be then to blame. It is spoken specifically to only aquire the age reducing qualities of another race not become the race itself. ;)
GothicDan 08-01-07, 08:26 PM	Wouldn't that only be true if you also said, "and NOT become a member of another race"? I always work Wish's off of "You get what you ask for. At least." basis.
Red_Wizard 08-01-07, 09:07 PM	It is not asking to become the other race though, only for the qualities of the race in question. One could of course make a valid arguement to the point that making them the specified race would be giving them the abilities in question via the change, but then that becomes the domain/ fault of the DM for opting to interperet that route and should not fall to the worder of wish. ;)
Eli_the_Tanner 08-01-07, 09:24 PM	Doesn't Wish follow the path of least resistance? So acheiving the desired result with the least amont of strain on the weave. A sort of Ockham's Razor, with regards to the interpretation of one's Wish. In this case, I belive the path of least resistance would to be an elf rather than a human with an elf's lifespan. This avoids multiplying entities beyond necessity.
GothicDan 08-01-07, 10:03 PM	One could of course make a valid arguement to the point that making them the specified race would be giving them the abilities in question via the change, but then that becomes the domain/ fault of the DM for opting to interperet that route and should not fall to the worder of wish. Yes, yes it should. Because in the game, everything falls on the fault of the DM, who then, in turn, can have anything he or she wants fall on the shoulders of the player. There's no real "default" when it comes to the game, since it REQUIRES human players.
Eli_the_Tanner 10-04-07, 12:53 PM	I guess this leads me to another set of questions. Who's life has been prolonged the longest? Ruling out those who have attained some form of immortality e.g. undead, chosen, very carefully worded wishes, to name but a few. Using mere life extension techniques - potions of longevity, wishes, epic spells, steal life, epic feats. What do the oldest wizards prefer to use? - factoring in reliability, availability etc. Which method (or combination of methods) ensures the maximum longevity with minimum risk?
Alediran 10-04-07, 02:11 PM	A good method that can be used in combination with stasis clones is getting thought bottles and storing experience every time you think it would be necesarry. So then you could create a clone with a char lvl of 19, you get to lvl 26 and store your experience that way. This means that if you get killed you still know where the bottle is and you only have to use it to recover the lost levels.
capnvan 10-04-07, 04:26 PM	I'm awfully surprised that no one mentioned this already. After being purchased by hasbro, wizards had access to a really astounding amount of money. That kind of cash can keep anyone young. :rimshot: Alright, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Argaud 10-05-07, 05:03 AM	The Extended Life Span epic feat might be responsible from some of those powerful characters' long lives. Elves get 375 extra years from taking it just once, and it only gets better.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 09:56 AM	Note that the majority of Wizardly NPCs were made ever before that Feat was the twinkle in the eye of a newborn 3E editor. ;)
El_Machinae 10-07-07, 09:33 AM	Those NPCs might even have been motivation for those rules.
Another Gnome 10-11-07, 08:48 AM	A lot bigger mystery is how you have these people with no social lives barricaded themselves in their room and spending all their time on non-physical activity, and yet they're all skinny... :detect:
Eli_the_Tanner 10-11-07, 08:33 PM	A lot bigger mystery is how you have these people with no social lives barricaded themselves in their room and spending all their time on non-physical activity, and yet they're all skinny... :detect: No fast-food delivery services.;) You should see Mordenkainen and Elminster stuffing themselves in the Wizard's Three articles.....it's like they haven't eaten in years. Sure they can probably summon a banquet fit for the king of Cormyr, but who has the time. You've got to dust off your old cookery Spellbook, prepare the spell(s) needed, go through all those laborious verbal incantations and somatic gesticulations, not to mention tracking down those ever elusive material components...Bah!! It''s much easier to just have a nice long snooze in front of the fireplace after reading your copy of 'Escapades of an Invisible Wizard' by Master I. Spi. :D