Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sullivan 06-08-07, 12:24 AM	Hello All. I was wandering around wikipedia tonight and I found the below text under the Abeir-Toril entry; Abeir-Toril is the name of the fictional planet on which the Forgotten Realms is set. The name is archaic, meaning "cradle of life." It consists of various continents and islands, including Faerûn, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica, Osse, Anchorome and Katashaka, a sub-Saharan-like continent south of Maztica, where humanity appeared. I have heard and know about Faerûn, Kara-Tur, Zakhara, Maztica and Anchorome. I have never heard anything about Osse or Katashaka. Would someone be so kind as to tell me about them? Or is this just some odd goof and they are not official names for locations inside the setting?
Old Sage 06-08-07, 01:20 AM	We assume that Osse is one of the "unknown lands" marked on the world map on pg. 231 in the FRCS... likely the larger continent at the bottom SE of the map itself. All we know about the land itself has been revealed in Lady of Poison. Aside from a few obvious examples in the book, I wouldn't say that Osse is a direct translation of, or heavily influenced by, Australian Aborigine culture -- Gunggari's mannerisms aside (as well as his dizheri), the supposed "ways" of the Osse people could very well be associated with many other examples of Polynesian tribal cultures. I always thought the actual name "Osse" was a bit of a joke as a matter of fact... As for Katashaka... that was merely the unofficial name Brian James used for one of his articles in the Candlekeep Compendium featuring lore about the dark continent located southwest of Faerûn. Assuming it survives editing, you'll likely learn a little more about Katashaka in the upcoming Grand History of the Realms sourcebook.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-08-07, 02:15 AM	Assuming it survives editing, you'll likely learn a little more about Katashaka in the upcoming Grand History of the Realms sourcebook. I'm looking more and more forward to that book. :)
Zandilar 06-08-07, 04:24 AM	Heya, We assume that Osse is one of the "unknown lands" marked on the world map on pg. 231 in the FRCS... likely the larger continent at the bottom SE of the map itself. All we know about the land itself has been revealed in Lady of Poison. Aside from a few obvious examples in the book, I wouldn't say that Osse is a direct translation of, or heavily influenced by, Australian Aborigine culture -- Gunggari's mannerisms aside (as well as his dizheri), the supposed "ways" of the Osse people could very well be associated with many other examples of Polynesian tribal cultures. I always thought the actual name "Osse" was a bit of a joke as a matter of fact... We really don't know enough to make any conjectures about the continent, but what we do have from Lady of Poison has an Indigenous Australian feel (though I think he had tattoos, if I remember rightly, which are more commonly seen in Polynesian decended peoples like the Maoris of New Zealand - but not all Indigenous Australians come from the same place, and some are related to Polynesian peoples). Still, the name Osse is just too... precious. But I should be used to my country (Australia) being the butt of jokes. :rolleyes:
boards 06-08-07, 05:02 AM	Yeah he was definately tatooed and belted things with a didgeridoo:rolleyes: which I cant say I have ever heard of. It seemed more like he was trying to portray an aboriginal but had no idea what they were actually like.
MerrikCale 06-08-07, 08:12 AM	I'm looking more and more forward to that book. :) Definately. I would love more info on the lost continents.
ShadezofDis 06-08-07, 11:12 AM	Yeah he was definately tatooed and belted things with a didgeridoo:rolleyes: which I cant say I have ever heard of. It seemed more like he was trying to portray an aboriginal but had no idea what they were actually like. Or it could be a society that is very loosely based on aboriginal cultures.
The Ubbergeek 06-08-07, 11:33 AM	I don't know, but that sounds cool to me - Final Fantasy X shown that much (the culture of this game world was based on Japan but also the whole Polynesia and around). Add some Dark Sun and you have a rocking campaign. :)
ShadezofDis 06-08-07, 11:39 AM	Add some Dark Sun and you have a rocking campaign. :) I love Dark Sun. I mean, it could just be because the DM I had for Dark Sun was great, but I dig the 2E material. Haven't really checked out the 3E stuff though (I believe it's all fan made too, but that doesn't mean it's bad :))
Old Sage 06-08-07, 12:05 PM	Paizo published both a special issue of DRAGON [#319] and DUNGEON [#110] which update "parts" of the Dark Sun setting, the races, etc -- they function like a 3e PHB and DMG for DS.
ShadezofDis 06-08-07, 12:30 PM	Paizo published both a special issue of DRAGON [#319] and DUNGEON [#110] which update "parts" of the Dark Sun setting, the races, etc -- they function like a 3e PHB and DMG for DS. That's cool. :) I know I've seen a fan site or two out there that tries to do the same. I should see about getting those two though. I'm tempted to use some thri-keen in the game I run and I've always preferred DS's lore for them (I'm assuming the FR thri-keen lore got cut down much like the minotaur deal) Well, preferred is probably strong, I'm sure if I saw more Realmslore about them I'd be much happier with their presentation. :)
Sullivan 06-08-07, 06:32 PM	I had always thought the landmass directly south of Maztica and Anchorome was, more or less, an analog of South America. When did it become an analog of Africa? Anything that fills in the maps a bit can be nice, so long as it makes sense. I’m not certain putting "Fantasy Africa" right next to "Fantasy Mesoamerica" makes sense or is thematically sound. I always thought of most of Southern Faerun as "Fantasy Africa." Well, I still have my pipe dreams about an eventual revisit to Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zakhara. A man can dream…
XHereticX 06-08-07, 09:00 PM	Ohh, new realms, sweet. Any chance some of the other continents are more technologically advanced? Like a futuristic continent?
Old Sage 06-08-07, 09:15 PM	That's not likely. If we're taking about modern tech (or any type of derivative for that matter) that would run on electronic components or use electricity for power... it simply doesn't work in the Realms. We know this from the 1e and 2e FRCS box sets. To put it simply, the physics of Toril/Realmspace won't allow such aspects to function.
Sullivan 06-08-07, 09:45 PM	I’m not looking for a chance to set up my TiVo while on Toril, but maybe a land with something like a Renaissance level (augmented by magic) would be interesting, rather than everything being stuck in the Low Middle Ages. That statement will probably earn me a condescending rebuttal… Back to the subject at hand, why put "Fantasy Africa" right next to "Fantasy Mesoamerica," hmmm?
XHereticX 06-08-07, 09:46 PM	That's not likely. If we're taking about modern tech (or any type of derivative for that matter) that would run on electronic components or use electricity for power... it simply doesn't work in the Realms. We know this from the 1e and 2e FRCS box sets. To put it simply, the physics of Toril/Realmspace won't allow such aspects to function. No, like magic powered tech. Final Fantasy type stuff.
Old Sage 06-08-07, 09:58 PM	I’m not looking for a chance to set up my TiVo while on Toril, but maybe a land with something like a Renaissance level (augmented by magic) would be interesting, rather than everything being stuck in the Low Middle Ages.Have you seen the "DaRoni's Workshop" section in Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue? It provides a sampling of siege engines and other weapons of war that are of a tech-level allowed in the Realms. They're inspired by da Vinci's own work on military and siege engines while he was in Florence.
Sullivan 06-09-07, 11:19 AM	Have you seen the "DaRoni's Workshop" section in Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue? Yes, yes I have actually. In fact, I wrote an entire book – Mechamancy, released by ENWorld Publishing – about this kind of thing. But were off subject here. Whose ideas was it to put "Fantasy Africa" right next to "Fantasy Mesoamerica," hmmm? I’ve not read Lady of Poison. What does it says about Pseudo-Australia? Where is it located?
Old Sage 06-09-07, 11:31 AM	All that I said about Osse in my initial reply is practically everything we know about the continent so far.
GothicDan 06-09-07, 12:26 PM	No, like magic powered tech. Final Fantasy type stuff. I certainly hope not. Final Fantasy and the like is magic obviously inspired by real world technological designs and methods. In Faerun, magical technology would develop independent of such ideas. The closest we've got to things of this sort are Evermeet, Halruaa, and to a lesser extent, Shade and Thay. There's two main concerns here. The first is that - what exactly is your definition of magical technology? We already have wands that are more powerful than guns, and more reliable and copious than guns were during the Middle Ages. We have wide-spread wards (Mythals, Thaymount, and the Wards described in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical) that are the equal of modern day security systems, if not better. We have Halruaan Skyships. Just because things don't LOOK like modern technology doesn't mean that there hasn't been magical-technological evolution in Faerun. The Thayan Bombards are another example. Faerunian technology, even powered by magic, would logically not resemble that found in Final Fantasy. And secondly, in Faerun, magic is known as the Art. Many of its most powerful practitioners consider it an intensely personal thing, something they're passionate about as an expression of who they are. It isn't treated as an empirical science almost anywhere. This, I think, is probably due to the fact that magic isn't as readily available in Faerun as more advanced technology became in the real world. If there's no widespread magic available (such as in Eberron), it's not going to progress at the rate technology has on Earth for the past few centuries. I mean, one can like Final Fantasy all they wish, but I don't really see it as being a very appropriate cultural theme to import into the Realms. I guess Lantan is pretty technologically advanced, but you'll note that it's decidedly steam-based, since electricity does not function, and augmented with magic.
GothicDan 06-09-07, 12:28 PM	Whose ideas was it to put "Fantasy Africa" right next to "Fantasy Mesoamerica," hmmm? Whoever it was, the idea itself was about as bad as putting in "Fantasy Mesoamerica" or "Fantasy Asia" altogether, if you ask me.
Sullivan 06-09-07, 01:05 PM	Whoever it was, the idea itself was about as bad as putting in "Fantasy Mesoamerica" or "Fantasy Asia" altogether, if you ask me. What is wrong with “Fantasy Asia,” or “Fantasy Arabia,” “Fantasy Africa” and “Fantasy Mesoamerica?” Most of Faerun is “Fantasy Europe,” and Western Europe at that, even if a person cannot really do a one-to-one replacement of real country for fictional country. Your post is barely an implicit, almost an explicit, statement that the only acceptable settings are inspired or thematically taken from an idealized Western Europe, regardless of what other options or traditions are available. That is an irrational argument that is narcissistic and aesthetically indefinable. In any event, this thread was not supposed to be about technological levels (that is a subject for a screed in a different thread). It was about Osse or Katashaka. So, Osse is a Pseudo-Polynesia/Pseudo-Australian land, is probably the big, round land mass located between Kara-Tur and Maztica/Anchorome. What little is known about it comes from Lady of Poison. And Katashaka is the unofficial title of the landmass south of Maztica/Anchorome. It is apparently like South America by location, but has been designated as thematically Sub-Saharan Africa by sources that are being given credence even though they are non-canon. I think the wikipedia entry needs to be cleared up.
Faraer 06-09-07, 03:32 PM	What is wrong with “Fantasy Asia,” or “Fantasy Arabia,” “Fantasy Africa” and “Fantasy Mesoamerica?” Most of Faerun is “Fantasy Europe,” and Western Europe at that, even if a person cannot really do a one-to-one replacement of real country for fictional country.In as far as that's true, it's an indirect and unplanned result of Ed Greenwood's cultural background. It would be a quite different thing to deliberately create Realms analogues of other continents that you aren't familiar with. Those things are always ridiculous to people who live in those countries, and inferior to the real thing. Even so, it wouldn't be crazy to make that decision and make a go of it. But in the case of the Realms, neither Ed nor Wizards of the Coast wants to. TSR did, for reasons that weren't creative or in sympathy with the setting, but just because they sometimes used the Realms as a commercial "holding setting" to sell more copies of basically unrelated products.
GothicDan 06-09-07, 04:44 PM	What is wrong with “Fantasy Asia,” or “Fantasy Arabia,” “Fantasy Africa” and “Fantasy Mesoamerica?” Most of Faerun is “Fantasy Europe,” and Western Europe at that, even if a person cannot really do a one-to-one replacement of real country for fictional country. Your post is barely an implicit, almost an explicit, statement that the only acceptable settings are inspired or thematically taken from an idealized Western Europe, regardless of what other options or traditions are available. That is an irrational argument that is narcissistic and aesthetically indefinable. I find your irrational iconoclastic response utterly astounding. The very fact that you assumed to know everything about my reasons for disapproving of these sub-settings, and then proceeded to essentially deprecate my character without even having your erroneous assumptions verified, is so offensive as to be comical. Note: I love desert-Arabic settings and African-like settings. In one of my own worlds, I've spent the most time on a continent that's basically, environmentally, part Middle East, Africa, and South America. I also think that Lo5R seems pretty awesome. So, with your 'theories' debunked, I'll let you have another guess as to why I actually dislike the aforementioned settings. Go ahead. Try to get a little more ignorant vitriole into it, next time.
XHereticX 06-09-07, 05:22 PM	Now how many big words did you use in that post dan?:D And I agree, you shoudn't assume a person is thinking in a certain way just based on your incomplete assessment of their comments. And can someone give me more info on these continents since I know next to nothing of their location and qualities.
GothicDan 06-09-07, 05:35 PM	And I agree, you shoudn't assume a person is thinking in a certain way just based on your incomplete assessment of their comments. Agreed. Unlike a lot of people on these boards, I am perfectly happily discussing the intricasies of me sentiments concerning various aspects about the game. People that get offended when questioned such seem, to me, to be a little frustrated at not being able to even sort out their own reasons for feeling as they do in a way that other people would understand. Sorry, I can't answer much about the continents. I only know what I do mostly from word of mouth (very respectable mouths, though).
XHereticX 06-09-07, 05:47 PM	Do you know any links?
Old Sage 06-09-07, 08:26 PM	So, Osse is a Pseudo-Polynesia/Pseudo-Australian land, is probably the big, round land mass located between Kara-Tur and Maztica/Anchorome. What little is known about it comes from Lady of Poison.Until it's referenced in a future source, this is correct. And Katashaka is the unofficial title of the landmass south of Maztica/Anchorome. It is apparently like South America by location, but has been designated as thematically Sub-Saharan Africa by sources that are being given credence even though they are non-canon.If Katashaka survives the GHotR editing process, it'll likely be considered part of Realms canon at that point. I think the wikipedia entry needs to be cleared up.It wouldn't be the first time...
souldnce9 06-09-07, 11:46 PM	Dan I don't want to guess why you don't like said continents, because I didn't make the comment, but I am definately curious as to why. Can you tell me? I personally don't like them because I think the realms are mimicing earth way too much by adding them, but I also understand as a writer that you need some kind of source to model after sometimes. I personally would like to see a culture seperate from anything we know. It would be difficult, but I would certainly like to see it.
Sullivan 06-09-07, 11:51 PM	Old Sage, thank you. GothicDan, your second post is inconsistent with your first post, which was an express condemnation of the creation and inclusion of the non-western settings. Even assuming your are not being disingenuous in the second post, you were at a minimum asserting that a series of explicitly non-Western settings should not be presented with explicitly Western settings, indeed that they should not be presented at all. Frankly I do not care what your motives are and I actually do not want to hear your justifications. People can and do justify and attempt to explain away all sort of things.
GothicDan 06-10-07, 12:07 AM	That's exactly how I feel. Faerun was designed with a huge variety of typical European archetypes in mind. Ed obviously used his knowledge of human society and culture in the real world to help shape it. It's impossible to avoid this. However, there's no place in Faerun (at least as it was originally created) that was a blatant copy and paste of real world regions. The fact that not only is Kara-Tur geographically VERY similar to Asia, but that various countries are very obviously based not only on specific Earth countries, but emulated so much as to be able to pin down certain dynasties and centuries, shows that it is an analog. Not inspiration. While some analogs may not be bad in and of themselves, putting together analog settings next to settings roughly inspired by real world cultures is a sign of ignorance and sheer laziness. It's idiotic to assume that our world's history would have developed nearly exactly the same if it had started in the world of Abeir-Toril from the beginning. Now, I've been spending months working on a desert empire culture based around the theocratic worship of a sort of three-faced sun deity, the ultimate tyrant and patriarch. I've looked up all cases of sun worship or solar deities that I can think of - Mezoamerican culture, the Vedic sun god, Helios, the fiery-light deity of Ahura Mazda, Egyptian religion in the form of Re and Atun, Apollo, and so on - as well as having researched the early historical evolution of the areas in which these religions and cultures emerged. I am doing this to get a good sociological model of how such a fantasy setting would develop, without ripping direct historical events, names, or the like.
souldnce9 06-10-07, 01:42 AM	That sounds really interesting and is a marvolous idea. Is this going to be a basis for a campaign setting? If it is I hope you make it available. I unfortunately base a good portion of my stories off European culture or Middle Eastern. I could see that the developement of the peoples history would better make for an interesting and unique culture. That was inspirering! Thanks GothicDan! :D
GothicDan 06-10-07, 08:17 AM	Heh. I'm flattered you're so interested. I was actually just explaining what goes behind my own world creation when I'm purposefully trying to create a non-analogue culture (which Faerun never was, and thus it wouldn't make sense for any of the others to have been, thematically). I'm actually working on another campaign setting/novel world. As well as the aforementioned Empire of the Sun, I was working on an arctic-circle culture that arosed from a very pragmatic Shamanistic culture (inspiration: Innuits, Lapps, Sami-folk, native Siberia), evolving in time (and in most places) to a culture in which a theocratic elite is trying to establish total rule in the name of the Lord of Fate and Death (LE god/spirit), attended by his wives Night and Winter. (I've used my personal interest and research into Etruscan culture as inspiration for this Death-Empire.) Arrayed against him are the (now weakened) deity-spirits that were worhshipped more evenly before the ascendence of the Lord of Eternity, consisting of the super-minor cultural archetype spirits and demigods (as similar to those worshipped by the Lapps, Siberians, and Innuits), and led by a handful of slightly more powerful gods, in particular the Maiden of Vitality and her love, the Burning Knight, acting as sharp contrasts to the Dark Three. Some myths say that the Lord of Eternity is only trying to prove to the Maiden of Vitality that he's better than her current crush, and thus woo her. Other myths say that she was originally his younger sister, and he felt that she betrayed him when she sided with the Burning Knight. I actually tried to work a bit of Norse (Hodur and Balder possibly competing over Freya in some theories) and Slavic (very dualistic, with Czernonog and Bylebog, or Perun versus. the dark earth god, etc.) myths and archetypes in. And then, of course, on one of the arctic isles with natural hot water geysers, steam, and latent magma drifts, there's the City of Steam, where basically the first real 'Technomancy' developed, by the Shamans of those ore-rich isles communing with the Metal and Lava Spirits and learning more about metallurgy, asking them to inhabit their constructs and machines, etc. So, eccentric Techno-Shamanism is another splinter group of thi ssame religious paradigm. It's taken me forever to really get this stuff solidified, but I'm actually kind of proud of it. It makes me a little sad that I'm moving on to another one before finishing that one.
MarkusTay63 06-10-07, 02:04 PM	I here that. Ever since I started making canon-based maps for the community, I stopped work on my own campaign map. The one where I moved certain places around (like Thay), in order to make more sense to me (and my style of play). I should throw it up on my Deviantart site, just for laughs, even though it's not finished. It would confuse the heck out of some people though. :D So I didn't create a world from scratch (this time, anyway), but just modified FR because it was much simpler then doing ALL that background work. It may seem like I took the easy way out, but I've designed worlds before and it's a tremendous chore I'd rather do without at this point.
Sullivan 06-10-07, 09:23 PM	However, there's no place in Faerun (at least as it was originally created) that was a blatant copy and paste of real world regions... Calimshan was and is a one-to-one replacement for Arabia. Cormyr and the Dalelands (collectively) are so close to how Medieval France or England are seen as to function as a one-to-one replacement for them. And your still making an explicit statement that settings heavily influenced by Western Europe are acceptable, and at the same time making a tacit statement that settings heavily influenced by non-Western settings are unacceptable. Besides, many people enjoy the novelty of “Fantasy Asia,” or “Fantasy Arabia,” or “Fantasy Mesoamerica.” There are always people rattling around the boards for updates to Kara-Tur, Zakhara and Maztica. You are deliberately attempting to deny them satisfaction of using those settings to sooth your fantasy-culture Puritanism.
Faraer 06-10-07, 09:55 PM	Calimshan was and is a one-to-one replacement for Arabia. Cormyr and the Dalelands (collectively) are so close to how Medieval France or England are seen as to function as a one-to-one replacement for them.Robert, I'm amazed that as a long-time Realms fan you think this. The resemblances are a literary jumping-off point: no detailed historical comparison holds up for a second. Neither Cormyr or the Dales is even feudal!You are deliberately attempting to deny them satisfaction of using those settings to sooth your fantasy-culture Puritanism.If you think Wizards should abandon Ed's consistently applied and carefully articulated design principles in order to please those people, I don't agree.
Dark Wizard 06-10-07, 10:37 PM	And your still making an explicit statement that settings heavily influenced by Western Europe are acceptable, and at the same time making a tacit statement that settings heavily influenced by non-Western settings are unacceptable. That's not what Dan is saying at all.
MarkusTay63 06-10-07, 11:05 PM	I love the non-western European parts of Abeir-Toril... but I also agree with Dan. What could have been wonderful regions 'reminiscent' of RW cultures, we got a copy and paste version. The History of Kara-Tur is so directly derivitive that in several places they actually FORGOT to change the name in the text. Case in point: Tabot is called Tibet several times in sources. The history of the various states is blatantly RW with very little changes (usually just a letter or two in names). I thought Koryo (Korea) was as least semi-original... until I looked into that region's RW history. The Hordelands themselves are not so derivitive, but the main feature - the Tuigan - are. The Ama Basin region is somewhat original; I've yet to find anything directly copied from history. The lower K-T region is pretty much a rip-off of India, although it was never really fleshed-out (the text even reccomends using the Vedic Pantheon from Legends and Lore). We a see a lot of the one-or-two letter change names there as well. Zakhara is derivitive of mythic Araby... but AFAIK the history and places are fairly original. At least we do not see too much copy-cat material there. I used to think that the history of Maztica was original, although not the recent events surrounding the Golden Legion. However, on closer inspectation I have found at least 98% of the 'ancient history' is copied from RW as well. Its just sad, because they could have taken a cultural concept, like Meso-America, and brought a 'fresh-face' to it. They really never bothered trying to 'Realmsify' those areas... even Zakhara is lackluster despite its semi-originality. Everything was done so bland that those poor regions lost any chance they had to develop a serious following. I have no problem with 'borrowing' cultures from the RW, but at least remember to change the names in the text. :rolleyes: And as far as 'stealing history', that was just an incredibly lazy solution, and those designers should re-imburse TSR (WotC) for any money they were paid. I swear they just copied stuff out of an Encyclopedia most of the time. :bored:
souldnce9 06-10-07, 11:05 PM	I feel that both are really great, I hope you finish even one and make it available. I'm actually working on one as well, but I don't really have my notes readily available, but it is loosely based off the Christian/Roman Empire. There is so much more to it, but I work over forty a week and on top of that I'm working on my BA, so it has been a work in progress for 6 years now. :weep:
Dark Wizard 06-11-07, 02:31 AM	I get a little angry at the company every time this is dredged up. I would place Oriental Adventures as the second most recognizable and accessible setting flavor after the obvious traditional European & 1001 Arabian Nights fantasy setting combo (European and Middle Eastern/West Asian cultures and mythologies have interacted so often throughout real world history and fantasy fiction they work well as one). If the company actually spent the effort, Kara-Tur could have been the place to be for the majority of oriental fantasy gaming (settings like L5R would have been diminished). If given the chance, Kara-Tur could have fully tapped into the kungfu and ninja craze of the 80s, the ongoing anime/manga craze, and the introduction of big budget wuxia films to Western audiences. Notice how interest in eastern fantasy hasn't really declined over the years, in fact it has increased; a trend that might slow but not cease. If TSR/WotC actually tied Kara-Tur in with the Realms, they could have made it readily accepted as a part of the Realms; thus appealing to a variety of gamers. What could have been wonderful regions 'reminiscent' of RW cultures, we got a copy and paste version. The History of Kara-Tur is so directly derivitive that in several places they actually FORGOT to change the name in the text. Case in point: Tabot is called Tibet several times in sources. The history of the various states is blatantly RW with very little changes (usually just a letter or two in names). I thought Koryo (Korea) was as least semi-original... until I looked into that region's RW history. I wished I could do that, it sounds so much easier. I spent several hours across two days in a massive brainstorm/naming session with a friend coming up with names for the three empires that make up the core OA region of our setting (we haven't gotten to the smaller countries and city-states yet). That was after inspiration struck for the three empires followed by an even longer brainstorming session (stretched across three late nights) discussing the idea with my friend and then working out the rough details on the three empires. I allowed myself one easy reference to a famous wuxia author and one muddle reference to a place in the Hyboria Age to appease the fanboy in me. The lower K-T region is pretty much a rip-off of India, although it was never really fleshed-out (the text even reccomends using the Vedic Pantheon from Legends and Lore). We a see a lot of the one-or-two letter change names there as well. Probably a good idea if it wasn't a 1-for-1 implant of the pantheon. As awesome as the Vedic Pantheon is, it still is an actively venerated tradition in the real world. I recall an Indian cultural watchdog organization complain about an episode of Xena years ago because it took some liberties with portrayals of Vedic divinities and events. It's the same reason why regular D&D avoids detailed use of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religious tradition (who's watchdog groups would be a million times louder). In the long run it allows for more flexible game and fiction plots. Zakhara is derivitive of mythic Araby... but AFAIK the history and places are fairly original. At least we do not see too much copy-cat material there. Zakhara faired pretty well considering the three sub-settings. It drew from old movies about Sinbad, Aladdin, and Ali-Baba rather than a history textbook on the Mid-East. I guess that's what you get when you don't model an FR continent on a real place, but draw inspiration through fictional representations of regional stories that already depart from real world history. Instead of looking mostly at encyclopedia entries on Asia, Kara-Tur should have been based more on the Journey West, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Outlaws of the Marsh, and Genji. I used to think that the history of Maztica was original, although not the recent events surrounding the Golden Legion. However, on closer inspectation I have found at least 98% of the 'ancient history' is copied from RW as well. :banghead: I have made reasons for my negative review of Maztica known on previous discussions. This doesn't help.
souldnce9 06-11-07, 03:05 AM	You know what would of been interesting is if Maztica was just as developed as faerun, only with a more advanced version of the Aztec culture. Boats, wizardry, and etc. I think it could still be done since the literature of Maztica isn't so fleshed out (as far as I know). Basically steer away from completely copying RW and add some flavor to Maztica. It could be good! Like ships from Maztica could be trading with Faerun, instead of colonies being set up there like in RW. They could have numerous large cities. Waring States, Powerful mages, etc. etc. etc. No reason not to let them have the technology of Iron, or even some other metal not found in Faerun. It would even be a great oppurtunity to add new races to the Realms and since the Elves seem to have gone that direction long before humans they could have influence there as well.
NorthsDefender 06-11-07, 06:38 AM	Ahem Calimshan is not arabic its more like ottoman turkey+ Indian Murghal states (terms like pasha are distinctively ottoman). Zakhara is arabic. The realms are not at all western european. Would you call Thay, Mullhorand, Unther Schachenta, Halruaa, Chult, the North, the Great Glacier and so on and so forth western european? Take Rashemen it Reminds me very much to East european slavic cultures but is nevertheless unique. And if Sullivan wants to blame someone for the wish to exclude this settings it should be me. I dislike them because the try to construct historical analogies which are only embarrasing because they are that obvious. Take the example of the discovery of Maztica. The Golden Legion= Conquistadores of Pizzaro and Cortez, the two ancient cultures (forgot the names) are Aztecs and Mayas. Helm Priests are the roman catholic church etc.. Is there not an Island near the coast of Kara-Tur which is called Nippon which is in a state of sankinkôtai? I bet its strongest Warlords name is "Odo Nobunagi" Come on thats cheap isn't it? By the way fantasy is based on celtic, germanic and (thanks to Tolkien) finnic myths. Thats why I find this settings disturbing.:hides:
Faraer 06-11-07, 08:07 AM	If TSR/WotC actually tied Kara-Tur in with the Realms, they could have made it readily accepted as a part of the Realms; thus appealing to a variety of gamers.For this to have worked, especially long-term, it would have had to -- reflect in-depth, preferably indigenous, knowledge and understanding of East Asia -- conform to the specific, mostly superficial ideas most of the Western fans had then (even more than now) -- gel intimately with Faerûn It was never likely to hit all three. François Froideval's draft of Oriental Adventures was largely replaced by David Cook's, so we can wonder how it would have differered, though François was no Realms expert either.Probably a good idea if it wasn't a 1-for-1 implant of the pantheon.Not least because Faerûn already had its Indian echo (Durpar etc.), just as Zakhara is a non-Realmsian version of Calimshan and the Lake of Steam and Unther (echoed Middle and Near East) and Kara-Tur is an analogous East Asia redundant with Faerûn's Orient (Thay and points east). I wish TSR had developed these instead; but they wanted transparent, easily recognizable Earth analogues that worked as people assumed they would, not as the Realms works.
GothicDan 06-11-07, 08:26 AM	Calimshan was and is a one-to-one replacement for Arabia. That's patently false. It also has strong elements of Ottoman culture, as admitted by Steven Schend, the guy who write Empires of the Shining Sands. You claim Arabia? Where in Arabian history do we see a CE ruler that's effectively under the finger of a divinity of murder, illusion, strife and insanity? Where do we here of Elven High Magic being used to halt the struggles of two great genie lords? Where in Calimshan do we see the roots of some of the oldest monotheistic religions in the world? Where in Arabian history or mythology do we see the term 'Qysar' used? When is this term used to specifically refer to a line of corrupt dynasty of archmages with a penchent for necromancy? When was Arabia ever in the pocket of 10 or so exceedingly powerful liches? So far, other than a few cosmetic similarities (style of dress, the prevalence of genies, a few linguistic similarities, and some shared magical iconography in the form of magic lamps and flying carpets), I can find no actual historical events, figures, or places that mirror those of Arabia. Cormyr and the Dalelands (collectively) are so close to how Medieval France or England are seen as to function as a one-to-one replacement for them. Really? Where's King Louis? Where's the Anglican Church? Where's the fantasy analogue of Paris? Where's the War of the Roses? When did Cormyr occupy the Dalelands for an extended period of time, such that the nobility there actually took to using Cormyran linguistic idiosyncrasies? Where's specific documentation of Dalelands Druids settling Cormyr and bringing their religion to the people there, or vice versa? From whence were the War Wizards of Cormyr drawn? Where are the Celts and the Pics? Where's Merlin? No, Vangerdahast does not count, because other than the fact that they were both spellcasters advising a ruler, an archetype extremely common in pretty much any fantasy setting regardless, they have absolutely nothing in common that I can tell. The prototypes and common modern associates of Merlin (the title Merlynd, the Celtic figure Taliesin, great knowledge of herbalism, a blending of Druidic, Roman, and Christian styles, the beliefs that he lived his life backwards,etc.) have no even remotely similar characteristics with Vangy. Where's Excalibur? The Holy Grail? Lancelot, the Round Table? Where's Danelaw and the remnants of the Saxon settlers in the Dalelands or Cormyr? When was Cormyr or the Dalelands settled and raided by the Rauthymar of the Moonshaes? And, I hate to tell you this, but England only really came into its own once it became a naval power. Neither of these countries has much in the way of fleets. This is the sort of information that was copied from real world history for use in the Earth-analogue campaign settings. The Dali-Lama, the whatever period of Japan (SPECIFIC PERIOD), a facsimile of the Boxer Rebellion (if I remember correctly), a very obvious rip off of the Mongol culture and the SPECIFIC EVENTS in the middle ages of Gengis Khan's horde overruning Europe (this did not happen in FR until the Hordelands was introduced). Deities lifted directly from the appropriate real world pantheons with next to no creative license taken. Like every other uninformed, self-righteous iconoclast I've had this 'discussion' with, you simply state that X or Y country is so much like A or B country of Earth, without giving even the barest of examples how. I am unsure whether it's because you are lazy, irrationally obstinate, or because you truthfully cannot find any worth mentioning. Beyond cosmetic similarities - knights in armor, wielding swords, the term 'king,' (which Ed has told us has Elven origins in the Realms anyway) - there are few to no actually valid one-for-one facts between the Faerunian and Earth countries you claimed were analogues in the same vein as those shown in Kara-Tur and the like. I personally have not seen a single fantasy setting, in any game or in an novel, that did not bare passing cosmetic similarities with one or more Earth culture. Also, since when did Cormyr or the Dalelands become an island? No, I'm not nitpicking. The actual countries of Kara-Tur are grossly similar to how they appeared in real life, matching specifically those countries they were based off of. So far, your assertions make it look like you know absolutely no factual history, culture, religion, politics, or language about Cormyr, the Dalelands, Calimshan, Arabia, England, or France. Is that really your primary goal? And your still making an explicit statement that settings heavily influenced by Western Europe are acceptable, and at the same time making a tacit statement that settings heavily influenced by non-Western settings are unacceptable. Did you even read my post concerning my opinions on the suitability of different kinds of settings being set down next to each other? Where in my posts concerning how I personally design fantasy worlds (and thus, a reflection of what I would approve of most) was I including only Western European archetypes? Besides, many people enjoy the novelty of “Fantasy Asia,” or “Fantasy Arabia,” or “Fantasy Mesoamerica.” There are always people rattling around the boards for updates to Kara-Tur, Zakhara and Maztica. You are deliberately attempting to deny them satisfaction of using those settings to sooth your fantasy-culture Puritanism. First, please point out my attempts to specifically deny them such. Second, please point out where I claimed there was anything wrong with the aforemtioned settings as a function of them being non-Western cultures? Quotes, please. I am currently under the impression that either you're not reading my posts, you're making things up altogether, or you may have genuine, severe difficulties in parsing and interpretting my diction. Any quotes you can provide from me that you think actually imply any of your slanderous accusations, I will be gladly to scan for you word by word and tell you the most common definitions of those words in the standard American English language (which these boards are based upon).
Zandilar 06-11-07, 08:49 AM	Heya, Probably a good idea if it wasn't a 1-for-1 implant of the pantheon. As awesome as the Vedic Pantheon is, it still is an actively venerated tradition in the real world. I recall an Indian cultural watchdog organization complain about an episode of Xena years ago because it took some liberties with portrayals of Vedic divinities and events. It's the same reason why regular D&D avoids detailed use of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religious tradition (who's watchdog groups would be a million times louder). In the long run it allows for more flexible game and fiction plots. The Vedic pantheon wasn't the only real world still current religion that got targeted by Xena. Xena was pretty non-biased in that regard. One of the reasons I stopped watching Xena was because of the utter disrespect with which it treated ancient and modern religions and history. Was a real shame, as the series was otherwise pretty good. (Yes, I admit it, I was a subtext junkie!) As an On Topic aside - I wouldn't trust anything about Faerun on Wikipedia. Last I looked it was full of inaccuracies and subjective opinions touted as fact. I should have said something in my initial post in this topic. If I'm wrong, please tell me and I'll go take another look.
GothicDan 06-11-07, 09:00 AM	The best thing about Xena (the few episodes I watched scattered throughout my younger years) was the guys who portrayed Pompey, Caesar, and Cupid. Oh yeah... Wait. I think two of them were the same guy. What's-his-face-Eomer-LotR.
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 03:58 PM	The best thing about Xena is that my remote worked really fast, and I never needed to watch more then 3 seconds of it. :P I would have to disagree Dan, about Cormyr and Sembia's navies. Pirates of the Fallen Stars makes both out to be naval powerhouses, but Sembia lost much of its fleet when Cormyr's showed up late to a joint-action against the pirates. Cormyr's navy patrols the WHOLE of the Sea of Fallen Stars, not just their coast, and even Thay gives their ships a wide berth. besides, Sembia is so much more like Machivellian Italy, with stupid shriner hats. ;) Azoun is a decent analog for King Arthur, and his sword is reminiscent of Arthur's as well (can't remember the name of it at the moment). However, there really isn't anything else 'Arthurian' about Cormyr, and if anything I would say it's 'similar' to pre-empire Britain, but certainly no cheap copy like we are discussing here. I believe Schend 'fixed' Calimshan as well, because it was too similar in Ed's original FR vision to Zakhara, and they needed to do away with the redundancy once Al-Qadim reared it's head.
Lord Karsus 06-11-07, 05:56 PM	-Hey, Sage: Osse. :D is called Tibet several times in sources. -Indeed, it is. As an On Topic aside - I wouldn't trust anything about Faerun on Wikipedia. Last I looked it was full of inaccuracies and subjective opinions touted as fact. I should have said something in my initial post in this topic. If I'm wrong, please tell me and I'll go take another look. -Exxxxactly. Though this little bit about the different continents is correct, it's easy to edit, and/or change things. Case in point- I was the one a few days ago to add Osse to that list. The best thing about Xena is that my remote worked really fast, and I never needed to watch more then 3 seconds of it. :P -Well, it's a good thing that statement can't be misconstrued...;)
GothicDan 06-11-07, 06:41 PM	The best thing about Xena is that my remote worked really fast, and I never needed to watch more then 3 seconds of it. I would have to disagree Dan, about Cormyr and Sembia's navies. Pirates of the Fallen Stars makes both out to be naval powerhouses, but Sembia lost much of its fleet when Cormyr's showed up late to a joint-action against the pirates. Why Sembia? Sembia wasn't mentioned... Cormyr's navy patrols the WHOLE of the Sea of Fallen Stars, not just their coast, and even Thay gives their ships a wide berth. Ah, that I didn't know. A little rusty on Cormyr. :) besides, Sembia is so much more like Machivellian Italy, with stupid shriner hats. And also hating Elves and having no trace of the religions that have basically shaped the Itallic peninsula for the past 4,000 years. ;) Azoun is a decent analog for King Arthur, and his sword is reminiscent of Arthur's as well (can't remember the name of it at the moment). However, there really isn't anything else 'Arthurian' about Cormyr, and if anything I would say it's 'similar' to pre-empire Britain, but certainly no cheap copy like we are discussing here. Do you really think that he's an analog for Arthur? Beyond shallow similarities (King, wielding a powerful sword, mounted), what else is there? Is he innately tied to the land? Was his father a dirty warlord? Does he have an evil sorceress half-sister? Did he ever go on a quest to acquire a religious relic that turned around Cormyr's formerly languishing power? I'm just trying to get across the real definition of what an analog is, comparing it to the actual level of imitation used in Kara-Tur and Maztica. :) I believe Schend 'fixed' Calimshan as well, because it was too similar in Ed's original FR vision to Zakhara, and they needed to do away with the redundancy once Al-Qadim reared it's head. That sounds like it has some truth to. As DarkWizard said, I really think Zakhara wasn't very bad, and would have enjoyed playing in it.
Old Sage 06-11-07, 09:02 PM	I believe Schend 'fixed' Calimshan as well, because it was too similar in Ed's original FR vision to Zakhara, and they needed to do away with the redundancy once Al-Qadim reared it's head.During Steven's later development of the region, he focused on making Calimshan less Arabian and more Turkish/Ottoman Empire (since there was the AL-QADIM setting covering the Arabian stuff quite well). Steven equates Calimshan with Medieval Turkey and the Byzantine Empire.
Old Sage 06-11-07, 09:07 PM	-Hey, Sage: Osse. :DQuiet you. :P
Dark Wizard 06-11-07, 10:24 PM	For this to have worked, especially long-term, it would have had to -- reflect in-depth, preferably indigenous, knowledge and understanding of East Asia -- conform to the specific, mostly superficial ideas most of the Western fans had then (even more than now) -- gel intimately with Faerûn It was never likely to hit all three. Never likely didn't mean they couldn't try, which they basically didn't, not as much as they could have. I also think you're setting the bar a bit unrealistically high. Large pieces of Faerun don't even fit into most of your criterion, yet most of the setting works well as a whole. As well read and intelligent as Ed and the other designers are, most of them are not certified, academic expert in Western European history and culture. Most of them don't even live in Europe. Any group of historians and sociologists wouldn't even come close to knowing the entirety of Western civilization and culture, not to mention the assumed capability of producing a flawlessly coherent fantasy setting from that inspiration. The sheer detail and attention Ed and the other designers have put into the setting is all I'm really asking for Kara-Tur. For the same attention and detail be put into the setting in roughly the same non-analogous approach as Faerun. It is not an impossible task that is doomed to failure if it falters along those three points. In regards to the first point, the Realms creator and designers are just regular people with a love of history and fantasy fiction (not necessarily even in this order, or excluding other inspirations not mentioned). I don't see why this first measure needs to be artificially inflated to restrict potential designers of Kara-Tur to native Asians with a vast amount of knowledge on the ancient past of their cultures. If anything this might hinder them in creating a setting appropriate for a Western audience, which is the main audience of D&D anyway. On the second point, D&D is already a modern reinterpretation of many of Western culture's mythology and history (not to mention some Eastern concepts as well). I really don't think you can say many Realms fans don't hold some mostly superficial (whether biased towards U.S. American, Canadian, Australian, Latin American, European, etc.) views on Faerun. Fans bring their own views and interpretations to every setting, even if it's one set of Western views against another set of Western views. Also, the eastern view and the western perspective are not incongruous. The creative people behind Record of the Lodoss War are Japanese, it didn't stop them from making a serious cinematic production that is more D&D than the official D&D movie. The difference between cultures didn't stop them from playing D&D-style rpgs using traditional Western fantasy concepts either, which was the basis for the Lodoss series in the first place. Likewise, American filmmakers have essentially used the script of the samurai movies to produce classic westerns. Finally, I believe Steven Schend worked hard to make Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan and the Lake of Steam region flow intimately with the rest of the Realms. I feel George Krashos is doing a wonderful job at developing Impiltur. Both of them probably don't live in real life societies too close to those they've written about. Imagination and creativity accounts for as much as an encyclopedic knowledge of inspirational cultures. That's the main thing I, and it seems many others, feel Kara-Tur got wrong; too much book knowledge, not enough of an original touch. François Froideval's draft of Oriental Adventures was largely replaced by David Cook's, so we can wonder how it would have differered, though François was no Realms expert either.Not least because Faerûn already had its Indian echo (Durpar etc.), just as Zakhara is a non-Realmsian version of Calimshan and the Lake of Steam and Unther (echoed Middle and Near East) and Kara-Tur is an analogous East Asia redundant with Faerûn's Orient (Thay and points east). I wish TSR had developed these instead; but they wanted transparent, easily recognizable Earth analogues that worked as people assumed they would, not as the Realms works. That would have been interesting. I've always wondered about the co-authorship of OA/Kara-Tur and the process that went into it.
boards 06-11-07, 10:28 PM	I cant say that I have ever thought of Azoun being a copy of King Arthur, they just seem waaaaaay to different, like Dan has said. To me Cormyr is more the stereotypical fairy tale kingdom, with its own flavour. Handsom, brave and beloved king, beautiful queen, wizards, magical creatures etc. Obviously Ed took it in a different direction, but that seems to be more the influence that he took.
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 11:21 PM	Never said he was a copy, but if you are trying to find ANY analogs, then thats the ONLY one that 'might' work. My whole point was that Cormyr is a lot less like England then it is similar. And besides, it's too far from Ireland (The Moonshaes). :P Unless you think the Moonshaes are Gaul, in which case that destroys the argument that sembia is France, which it most certainly IS NOT, either way. Notice (Dan) that I use the words 'reminiscent of' specifically to point out that it IS NOT a copy of ANY RW nation. I just get that pre-unification Italy 'feel' from Sembia. Must be the whole Merchant of Venice thing (not to mention the power-politics). There is no country in the Heartlands that I would claim is a carbon-copy of RW countries, and that includes Mulhorand. Enough differences have been added in to make Mulan history a seperate entity... unlike the history of Kara-Tur and Maztica, which appears to be lifted nearly word-for-word from someone's 10th grade social studies book. That was the problem with those regions - they weren't given half a chance to even be moderately original. As Dark Wizard and I and so many others here have so often bemoaned, there was SO much wasted potential there. The Hordelands may be derivitive of the RW Mongolian/Steppe region, but when you read the entries in that source you will find many original concepts, some good, some bad, but at least they were trying. Same goes for Al-Quadim - although I found the Campaign Setting rather lack-luster (the demi-humans were said to basically act like different looking humans, so what was the point of them?), the many accessories that came out for it fleshed-out the region and made it more real for me. I particularly liked Ruined Kingdoms, which I downloaded from Paizo about a month ago. Once again the designers at least tried to do something meaningful there. The people who wrote the background for Maztica and Kara-Tur practically committed a crime, that's how close they copied the RW histories.
GothicDan 06-11-07, 11:28 PM	Also, the eastern view and the western perspective are not incongruous. The creative people behind Record of the Lodoss War are Japanese, it didn't stop them from making a serious cinematic production that is more D&D than the official D&D movie. While I tend to dislike a lot of animes, Record of Loddoss War is one of my favorites. I remember being pretty young when I bought the whole set in the neat dragon box thing. Too bad they're VHS's, and I don't want to spend more money on DVDs. I liked Bastard!! a lot, too.
souldnce9 06-12-07, 12:33 AM	What are the sources for Maztica?
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 12:34 AM	While I tend to dislike a lot of animes, Record of Loddoss War is one of my favorites. I remember being pretty young when I bought the whole set in the neat dragon box thing. Too bad they're VHS's, and I don't want to spend more money on DVDs. -That's the one that has, like, a Drow, an evil guy in black armor that is in love with said Drow woman, and some kind of witch, right? I've always meant to pick that series up, since it looked interesting. I could never find it, though, when I was looking.
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 12:45 AM	What are the sources for Maztica? What do you mean? -That's the one that has, like, a Drow, an evil guy in black armor that is in love with said Drow woman, and some kind of witch, right? I've always meant to pick that series up, since it looked interesting. I could never find it, though, when I was looking. Yep, that's the one.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 12:48 AM	I'll admit to Ashram (the black-armored guy) being by far one of my favorite villains in fantasy media, probably because he was depicted as a very realistic and multi-dimensional character who sincerely felt emotions for another. I also hated Parn (the main hero), And I think I hate ALL of the English names, except Wagnar.
Sullivan 06-12-07, 12:55 AM	This is what is was getting at in my posts about GothicDan comments. Everything MarkusTay63 asserts is categorically true and that matters not a whit to the “purists.” An old TSR catalog I kept for years after it was current flatly advertised F.R. (Cormyr specifically) as no longer an Arthurian take off – it was more than just a noble king with a neat sword and his scheming wizards mentor running the kingdom. The fact the claimed change was part of the advertising campaign itself means it had been an issue for a long time, possibly from the publication of the setting itself. But that doesn’t matter to the “purists.” The statement that neither Cormyr or the Dales are feudal is absurd. None of the nations or lands in the setting are truly feudal in so far as that system of government actually worked. That would hamper gaming – and say they do deliberately set the criterion so high as to end the argument. However, as fantasy nations they do come packed with kings, lords, peasants, serfs, castles and knights on horseback. But that doesn’t matter to the “purists.” Calimshan may have become less Arabian over the years, but in its earliest stages it carried a pronounced Arabian feel and theme. The arguable switch from Arabian to Turkish is somewhat incidental as it has come from being a fantasy analog of one nation and people to being a fantasy analog of a different nation and people. But that doesn’t matter to the “purists.” Ed Greenwod himself wrote the original, 2nd Edition, book on the Anaroch Desert, which included the Bedine tribes, as close to a one-to-one ripe off on a real world culture (the Bedouin) as any F.R. book produced. The Great Glacier (by Rick Swan) book presents a people who are essentially Inuit. And Chult is a heavily taken from the Congo, not-with-standing the R.E. Howard elements thrown in. The Moonshae Isles are heavily Celtic. But that doesn’t matter to the “purists.” Lastly – because like most ‘net arguments it is only a matter of minutes before is falls into pointless circular bickering* – refusing to allow these settings to be used or again approached means they cannot be improved, developed and that the mistakes of the past cannot be corrected. And that is the goal of the “purists.” *At least no one called anyone else a Nazi. As a Stalinist I hate that.
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 12:59 AM	I liked the design of their "stuff." The kings wore armor and wielded swords befitting of kings and former high level adventurers. The young knight has very utilitarian gear. And the dwarf looks like a dwarf. I tried to work in the idea of a island splintered off from the main continent in one of my settings. An island with its own typical fantasy kingdoms with their own little intrigues and fighting their petty little wars. It didn't stick well the first time, might be time to revisit the idea again.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 01:03 AM	Didn't that happen with the Crystalmir (was that the name?) series or something? I heard not so good things about that. I liked the dragons, too.
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 01:19 AM	-Sully, as someone not really entrenched in the "purist" camp, I really don't agree with you much, here.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 01:31 AM	All I can say is that I hope that the people whose analytical and conclusive processes are the same as Sully's are very few in the world. Wonderful at misinterpretting statements and opinions, redefining them, and then using little more than judgmental loaded language to prove those definitions and at the same time slander the opinion that they mutilated in the first place. I guess that's why I tend to dislike politicians and pretty much anyone who resorts to speaking upon things in a way that means to inspire emotional response rather than deductive reasoning.
souldnce9 06-12-07, 01:34 AM	First: I meant are there any source books besides the FRCS that covers Maztica? Secondly: Sullivan how could you be so off basis? I think it is fairly clear that Dan and MarkusTay are saying pretty much the exact same thing. I don't understand why you are attacking Dan? He is saying the realms are modeled after RW, but not an exact copy where as Maztica and Kara Tur are exact copies. Wouldn't you rather see an Asian land or Aztec like land that isn't just a complete mimic of the real world. I personally love Aztec culture and history and don't mind seeing it in the Realms, but it is so cheap that it completely mimics the same RW history. I'm pretty sure that is what Dan is saying and you are just attacking him as if he was some kind of fascist that only wants to see European culture in the realms. That isn't at all what he is saying. I really don't think you need to be attacking him! :(
GothicDan 06-12-07, 01:36 AM	Aw, for someone who I've just recently met on here, I like you, Soul. You're well on your way to becoming an Elf-friend. ;) And, yes, Markus and I were agreeing. I think Sully REALLY needs to start reading post, because Markus stated as much in agreement with me, and he called Kara-Tur and Maztica CRIMES. Yet Sully claims that everything he says are categorically true?
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 01:37 AM	An old TSR catalog I kept for years after it was current flatly advertised F.R. (Cormyr specifically) as no longer an Arthurian take off – it was more than just a noble king with a neat sword and his scheming wizards mentor running the kingdom. The fact the claimed change was part of the advertising campaign itself means it had been an issue for a long time, possibly from the publication of the setting itself. The difference from marketing and reality can be quite different. Did you think that perhaps that marketing might purposely have tried to correct improper marketing earlier on that did advertise Cormyr as a clone of Arthurian England. Or maybe the original presentation didn't reveal enough details to show that it never was a direct Arthurian analog? The statement that neither Cormyr or the Dales are feudal is absurd. None of the nations or lands in the setting are truly feudal in so far as that system of government actually worked. That would hamper gaming – and say they do deliberately set the criterion so high as to end the argument. However, as fantasy nations they do come packed with kings, lords, peasants, serfs, castles and knights on horseback. I don't think anyone ever said there was anything wrong with kings, lords, peasants, etc. Just because a nation has kings and lords does not make it feudal, it might have once been or the terms are shared but with different meanings. The terms king, lord, etc. have been used to refer to positions and classes other than those of medieval feudalism. As a fantasy kingdom, places like Cormyr allow a greater amount of freedom than their real world European inspirations. This does not seem to be true for much of Kara-Tur, it's not true of Rokugan (and I have been in some bad OA Rokugan games where strict, puritanical adherence to the overblown, mostly fictional feudal system was just impossibly stifling). Calimshan may have become less Arabian over the years, but in its earliest stages it carried a pronounced Arabian feel and theme. The arguable switch from Arabian to Turkish is somewhat incidental as it has come from being a fantasy analog of one nation and people to being a fantasy analog of a different nation and people. A little bit of this, a little bit of that, and before you know it trying to trace back the exact 1-to-1 analog becomes difficult. You are force to take the region as its own entity. Ed Greenwod himself wrote the original, 2nd Edition, book on the Anaroch Desert, which included the Bedine tribes, as close to a one-to-one ripe off on a real world culture (the Bedouin) as any F.R. book produced. Who were from Zakhara. Can't blame the man much for trying to tie the various pieces of the world together through irresponsible use of magic. The Great Glacier (by Rick Swan) book presents a people who are essentially Inuit. Dan did say the original parts of the Realms before TSR had other writers add in real world analogs, which the Great Glacier is a part of. And Chult is a heavily taken from the Congo, not-with-standing the R.E. Howard elements thrown in. What's wrong with REH? So it borrows a bit from sub-saharan Africa and a sword and sorcery author. Then it mixes it up and adds other things, making something that is just weird and quite interesting actually. Where is the direct analog? The Moonshae Isles are heavily Celtic. Changed from the original crescent shaped archipelago due to the Moonshae novels which were originally supposed to go with a UK imprint involving Dragonlance. I don't recall what Ed said about his original area, but I get the feeling there wasn't much on them overall, at least compared to places like Waterdeep and the Heartlands. Notice how little mention most of these places have received throughout 2e (barely anything outside of their respective regional book) and even less in 3e. It's like the setting is trying to forget about them. Lastly – because like most ‘net arguments it is only a matter of minutes before is falls into pointless circular bickering* – refusing to allow these settings to be used or again approached means they cannot be improved, developed and that the mistakes of the past cannot be corrected. Again, no one ever said these types of analogs should never ever be used. Many don't like them, but many of those same people also want these places to be improved, developed and the mistakes of the past corrected. It seems like you're arguing against yourself, taking minor comments from other posters out of context, embellishing their points to give yourself something to talk about. It sounds like you have a grudge against these "purist" from some past transgression. I don't get what you have against Dan. This was by far the least critical of his posts on the Kara-Tur/Maztica/Zakhara topic that I can recall over the last few years. Everyone here has consistently maintained that Faerun is inspired by the real world, but places like Kara-Tur are direct clones of the real world, down to individual countries, cultures, and histories with a few names scrambled to give a poor illusion of detachment from the source material, down to their geographical placement next to each other.
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 01:41 AM	First: I meant are there any source books besides the FRCS that covers Maztica? There was the Maztica setting box set from 2e, with a trilogy of adventure tie-ins that were based on the novel trilogy. There are a few minor mentions throughout various books. I think the book Gold and Glory also dealt with the happenings in Maztica.
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 01:42 AM	First: I meant are there any source books besides the FRCS that covers Maztica? -Maztica: Campaign Set (2e Sourcebook) -Maztica: Fires of Zatal (2e Adventure) -Endless Armies (2e Adventure) -City of Gold (2e Adventure)
GothicDan 06-12-07, 01:45 AM	Don't you find it amazing, Dark, that he's claiming people that genuinely like and have played in non-Western European settings, basically fantasy Anglophiles? I guess I'll just delete all of these files about my Egyptian/Byzantium/Iranian/Arabian/Turkish/Mesopotamian culture, then. Oh, wait. I like it. I feel like someone's trying to tell me very hard to stop being so straight, and that I should be gay, while I'm kissing a guy in front of him. NOTE: I addressed this to DarkWizard since I know he personally enjoys non-Western settings very much, but still understands the problems I see. I could have added in Markus, too.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 02:00 AM	I find nearly every RW culture interesting, but I don't want to see them copy-and-pasted into my game. Designers get paid to create, not copy from text books. A little originality goes a long way to keep people's attention. That is the purpose of the current Kara-Tur project; to fix the mistakes of the past. That region is VAST, with unlimited potential. We just want to see that potential reached... :angelhide -Maztica: Campaign Set (2e Sourcebook) -Maztica: Fires of Zatal (2e Adventure) -Endless Armies (2e Adventure) -City of Gold (2e Adventure) All of which can be downloaded from HERE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads) for FREE!
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 02:06 AM	Don't you find it amazing, Dark, that he's claiming people that genuinely like and have played in non-Western European settings, basically fantasy Anglophiles? I guess I'll just delete all of these files about my Egyptian/Byzantium/Iranian/Arabian/Turkish/Mesopotamian culture, then. Oh, wait. I like it. I feel like someone's trying to tell me very hard to stop being so straight, and that I should be gay, while I'm kissing a guy in front of him. NOTE: I addressed this to DarkWizard since I know he personally enjoys non-Western settings very much, but still understands the problems I see. I could have added in Markus, too. Odd, indeed. I'm pretty sure you've reiterated your interest in the L5R setting which is based heavily on Japan but with a few additions from China, Mongolia and India. Not to forget your mentions of your personal settings with elements not found in any solely European inspired fantasy. In fact, I actually saw you saying Zakhara had redeeming qualities, I think that's a first. When I can get you to accept Kara-Tur, I win at these forums. Maybe when Markus and the Kara-Tur Redux group gets done with their overhaul. I don't blame you. I personally find Kara-Tur bland because the text is more sterile than my high school history textbook. I will say it again, I find it strange that Kara-tur is almost more historically accurate than most wuxia (action historical fiction genre) TV series from Hong Kong or China. I guess Wuxia is often equated with sword and sorcery for a reason.
souldnce9 06-12-07, 02:13 AM	Aw, for someone who I've just recently met on here, I like you, Soul. You're well on your way to becoming an Elf-friend. Why thanks Dan! I would be most honored. Anything to keep those spells directed somewhere else. ;) Wow if the titles of those 2nd ed. Adventures are a clue, they are completely unoriginal. My father wrote a really cool poem about the cities of gold, plus he was writing a historical novel on Coronado's adventures in the U.S., but he didn't finish before he passed away. :weep: I hope to finish it and get it published one day. Dan stop being so straight! :P
GothicDan 06-12-07, 02:18 AM	*Makes out with random guy. But a cute one, since he's got standards. He's a Sun Elf.* Dark - The problem with Kara-Tur Redux is, to me, is that I really super like to keep things fairly close to canon. Even in researching my Aryvandaar information and working on various bits of history and culture, I absolutely refuse to change canon, or even 'bend it' in a way that it doesn't seem like it was meant to go. So, with Kara-Tur, you can add interesting things, but if you keep to canon, there's still all of that terrible stuff left. I wish one of my Japanese fraternity brothers (as in, lived in Japan for 18 years before moving to America for college) actually had enough interest in RPGs to read Kara-Tur. He'd probably die laughing. Then again, he has a strange dislike of Japanese culture. Which is okay because I've never been thrilled with American.
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 02:32 AM	Dark - The problem with Kara-Tur Redux is, to me, is that I really super like to keep things fairly close to canon. Even in researching my Aryvandaar information and working on various bits of history and culture, I absolutely refuse to change canon, or even 'bend it' in a way that it doesn't seem like it was meant to go. So, with Kara-Tur, you can add interesting things, but if you keep to canon, there's still all of that terrible stuff left. Yeah, I'm afraid as much as I don't want to, deep down inside I have to agree. I admire the Kara-Tur Redux's stance on canon. I haven't thrown in much input because I haven't been keeping to canon for anything I'm doing on Kara-Tur. It's why I've been so quiet about a topic I actually have a lot of interest in. I even have a reason for my alternate take on it, which would put Kara-Tur on the map so to speak. I have a lot of hope for Grand History of the Realms. I'm waiting to see something in there that might redeem the whole of Kara-Tur, so that I feel I will not have to finish my revision. That would be the best abandoned project I can think of. I wish one of my Japanese fraternity brothers (as in, lived in Japan for 18 years before moving to America for college) actually had enough interest in RPGs to read Kara-Tur. He'd probably die laughing. Nooo! Kara-Tur has claimed enough lives as it is. Every time I look at the writing system found in the Kara-Tur trail map, ten kittkens are run over by steam rollers... slowly.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 02:37 AM	Yeah, I'm afraid as much as I don't want to, deep down inside I have to agree. I admire the Kara-Tur Redux's stance on canon. I haven't thrown in much input because I haven't been keeping to canon for anything I'm doing on Kara-Tur. It's why I've been so quiet about a topic I actually have a lot of interest in. I even have a reason for my alternate take on it, which would put Kara-Tur on the map so to speak. Care to share your alternate theory? I have a lot of hope for Grand History of the Realms. I'm waiting to see something in there that might redeem the whole of Kara-Tur, so that I feel I will not have to finish my revision. That would be the best abandoned project I can think of. Don't you think you're setting the bar a little high? I don't think just one book commited entirely to Kara-Tur could totally rehaul it, unless the first line was: forget everything you know about Kara-Tur. Now, start learning. Nooo! Kara-Tur has claimed enough lives as it is. Every time I look at the writing system found in the Kara-Tur trail map, ten kittkens are run over by steam rollers... slowly. Zomg, kitty! If puppies start getting killed, I may have to burn all of your Kara-Tur books.
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 02:42 AM	I don't think just one book commited entirely to Kara-Tur could totally rehaul it, unless the first line was: forget everything you know about Kara-Tur. Now, start learning. -That's the worst case scenario. There's nothing worse than retroactive retcons, even if they make sense, and are needed.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 02:42 AM	It is possible to 'spruce up' all that yucky canon... trust me. ;) I look at it this way - the stuff currently in print is the stuff from the 'official Shou histories' (in fact, the sourcebooks claim as much). I figure they are the boring facts found in any history text. What we are going to do is read-between-the-lines, as it where. The source specifically states that the 'official' histories omit quite a bit of stuff, as well as put a positive spin on certain events. In this way, we can use THAT canon to our advantage. The histories only tell 10% of the story, but what about the other 90%? Shou only concerns itself with human affairs, but what of all the non-human races living in the area? Besides the ones we are adding, there are dozens of canon ones that were never covered in any serious way. What of the Maraloi? Ogre-magi Kingdoms? The Yuan-ti? There are many teeny tiny blurbs in the text that we can build entire volumes on. 2e Kara-Tur was just the tip of the iceberg, my friends. Just by fleshing out all the clan-specific stuff we will make it more interesting, and bring it in line with 3e OA.
GothicDan 06-12-07, 03:13 AM	Markus, you know I'm already not a big fan of how you "fix" lore. ;) Our styles are just very vastly different. A lot of what you described falls to me under the definition of stretching canon to be something it wasn't meant to be entirely. What it was meant to be is what its original representation was presented as. I have heard no rumors from any designers that Maztica and Kara-Tur was supposed to be anything "more" than what they were represented as. To me, they are what they are. What you're describing is something more interesting, but not Kara-Tur. That's actually a lot of why I've been super hesitant about contributing anything to the Elven Netbook. I would prefer there be more canon. Though at least it's a little more acceptable that the majority of information is coming from an in-character point of view. Unlike most people, I hate in-character histories, usually. I LIKE dry history books, and I hate to read novels or short stories that read like someone is telling a story (which is why I dislike Tolkien's style). It's sort of a personal view of my 'ethics' in life (or the closest thing I have to them). Pick your goal, your opinion. Go there. Achieve it. Don't try to backtrack and make it look you it wasn't what you meant to do when you get there and people ridicule you for it. If someone critiques you, and you see they're right, tell them they're right, and that you were wrong. Kara-Tur got where it was supposed to go. Changing it would just because it isn't popular, in my mind, deprecate what litle integrity it had in the first place.
Dark Wizard 06-12-07, 11:20 PM	Care to share your alternate theory? So as to not derail this thread with my oddball ideas, I'll take this to the cross-planar time linking thread I started. It's not much. Barely substantial, I'm slowly developing it in the odd seconds I have at work and what not. I don't have LK's or Markus' ability to absorb vast amounts of information and synthesis torrents of material in a relatively short amount of time. I wished I did. Don't you think you're setting the bar a little high? I don't think just one book commited entirely to Kara-Tur could totally rehaul it, unless the first line was: forget everything you know about Kara-Tur. Now, start learning. I suppose I am. I just hope the little attention afforded Kara-Tur (more specifically Shou Lung) makes it that much more interesting and fitting with the existing history of Faerun. I'll take what little I can get. With the names attached to that project, I'm confident it would be worth it, even a cursory mention. Zomg, kitty! If puppies start getting killed, I may have to burn all of your Kara-Tur books. Of course, in the humble opinion of this arcanist: canines > felines. Take that wily anime cat-girls! -That's the worst case scenario. There's nothing worse than retroactive retcons, even if they make sense, and are needed. I agree and I do not tread where I go lightly. 2e Kara-Tur was just the tip of the iceberg, my friends. That is partly my approach as well, but I really felt I should have this caveat as an escape clause for the really out there ideas I may have.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 11:35 PM	Markus, you know I'm already not a big fan of how you "fix" lore. ;)What I do is no different then what Steven Schend did to Calimshan. He took a relatively uninteresting area that was too close to a RW region and 'fixed it'. Many of the newer designers do much the same; they take things that were never given the proper attention, or stuff that was 'buggy', and they fix it for us so that it works better in FR and is more interesting overall. I don't see any problem in people doing this. The only difference is that what I do is NOT official. What Brian did was not official either, and look what happened. I also do not get paid for what I do, except in the form of appreciation by my fellow FR fans. I suppose that means if I ever get my tagline attached to an official product (I can dream, can't I?) that you will find it unacceptable THEN as well? You need to broaden your horizons Dan, all of those evil formulae you're absorbing is turning your alignment lawful-boring. :P
souldnce9 06-13-07, 01:21 AM	Cats > Muts x infinity! :pbbbtt: Anyway, Markus do you have links to your "fixes"? LK has his nifty little links in his sig. You should do it too.
GothicDan 06-13-07, 03:58 PM	Markus, my horizons are expanded just fine. I just think that you stretch things a little too far from canon (further than Schend ever did). This is just my opinion, and the 'feel' I get from your work. It's not really a judgment of quality at all, just a personal indicator of preference. I'm not trying to offend you - it's just not my cup of tea. Dark: I suppose I am. I just hope the little attention afforded Kara-Tur (more specifically Shou Lung) makes it that much more interesting and fitting with the existing history of Faerun. I'll take what little I can get. With the names attached to that project, I'm confident it would be worth it, even a cursory mention. Now, that's a more likely aspiration for the book, I think. Of course, in the humble opinion of this arcanist: canines > felines. Take that wily anime cat-girls! Agreed. I prefer canines far more. Particularly larger breeds. Except for lions. Woah I likes me some lions. If I was born a human anywhere within Nobanion's area of worship, there's a good chance I'd have ended up worshipping him.
Faraer 06-13-07, 04:10 PM	As well read and intelligent as Ed and the other designers are, most of them are not certified, academic expert in Western European history and culture.Since Faerûn isn't Sim Europe, that's not what's needed. I'm talking about a wealth of spontaneous, ingrained cultural and literary background, not academic historical knowledge and research.Finally, I believe Steven Schend worked hard to make Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan and the Lake of Steam region flow intimately with the rest of the Realms. I feel George Krashos is doing a wonderful job at developing Impiltur. Both of them probably don't live in real life societies too close to those they've written about.All those places draw on fantasy fiction, on the Forgotten Realms -- and the guys you mention are familiar with those things -- and distant third on historical influence.Imagination and creativity accounts for as much as an encyclopedic knowledge of inspirational cultures. That's the main thing I, and it seems many others, feel Kara-Tur got wrong; too much book knowledge, not enough of an original touch.Well, if anyone creates the kind of setting you're thinking of, I'll take a look. I hope it's more Glorantha's Kralorela and less Rokuganlike ersatz confection.I believe Schend 'fixed' Calimshan as well, because it was too similar in Ed's original FR vision to Zakhara, and they needed to do away with the redundancy once Al-Qadim reared it's head.The original Calimshan isn't particularly legendary- or Hollywood-Arabia, though the treatment in FR3 arguably was. Seems to me Steven was trying to stick to Ed's intent but with a little more direct Earth influence, for instance in the name structure, than Ed would have used, though his choice of Earth influence may have been influenced by the existence of Zakhara.
Faraer 06-13-07, 04:18 PM	The fact the claimed change was part of the advertising campaign itself means it had been an issue for a long time, possibly from the publication of the setting itself.And TSR promoted Elminster as Ed Greenwood's alter ego, and advertised the FRCS by playing up an increased role of evil. Doesn't mean there's anything in the two canards referred to.The statement that neither Cormyr or the Dales are feudal is absurd.Well, they aren't. You claimed a much closer correspondence than . . .. . . kings, lords, peasants, serfs, castles and knights on horseback.. . . which is a matter of literary texture and trope, not of historical emulation.The arguable switch from Arabian to Turkish is somewhat incidental as it has come from being a fantasy analog of one nation and people to being a fantasy analog of a different nation and people.We must mean different things by "analog".Ed Greenwod himself wrote the original, 2nd Edition, book on the Anaroch Desert, which included the Bedine tribes, as close to a one-to-one ripe off on a real world culture (the Bedouin) as any F.R. book produced. The Great Glacier (by Rick Swan) book presents a people who are essentially Inuit. And Chult is a heavily taken from the Congo, not-with-standing the R.E. Howard elements thrown in. The Moonshae Isles are heavily Celtic.Those creations of Troy Denning, Rick Swan, Jim Lowder, and Doug Niles are the classic, long-recognized examples of bad Realms worldbuilding. Jim not so much, but Troy is known for his bizarre setting infelicities, Rick never understood the Realms worth a damn and seems to have been writing for a quick freelance paycheck, while Doug created his Moonshaes for another world entirely. Those things are barely defensible: just improvable, as in FR13 Anauroch and FA2 Moonshae.Lastly – because like most ‘net arguments it is only a matter of minutes before is falls into pointless circular bickering* – refusing to allow these settings to be used or again approached means they cannot be improved, developed and that the mistakes of the past cannot be corrected. And that is the goal of the “purists.”You're putting words into people's mouths. Why mock the phenomenon of imaginary stereotyped internet factions then go on to talk about them rather than real people's viewpoints?
Lord Karsus 06-13-07, 06:09 PM	I don't have LK's or Markus' ability to absorb vast amounts of information and synthesis torrents of material in a relatively short amount of time. I wished I did. -With great power comes great responsibility. It's both a blessing and a curse. I agree and I do not tread where I go lightly. -I should have prefaced that with "unexplained". There's nothing worse than "unexplained" retroactive retcons, such as what Dan was suggesting. Retroactive retcons aren't always that bad, depending on how they are pulled off.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 07:40 PM	Anyway, Markus do you have links to your "fixes"? LK has his nifty little links in his sig. You should do it too.Some of them are in LK's sig, since I contribute to that work. My maps (http://markustay.deviantart.com/) also address some of the mistakes that were created when the world was altered for 3e. Although the ToC in the K-T thread has no links as of yet, most of the ideas we've been bouncing around reside there, as well as quite a few in the Maztica thread. I occassionally just throw a few suggestions 'out there', but I don't bother keeping track of them. I think those are the ones Dan's referring to - the stuff I do for the various netbooks flows much more logically then my ramblings do. You can find some of my 'stranger' concepts in the various 'planar' threads, but I'm always refining those and updating them. My stuff on the Fey and Fäerie is far-reaching, but that is because I try to marry RW folklore to D&D rules, which isn't easy. It's difficult to make 'hard and fast' rules concerning a mutable chaotic race. The funny thing, I'm actually a stickler for canon, I just like to insert stuff in-between official lore. I change nothing, so I do not know why it bothers Dan so. I think he's just jealous of my sexy hiney. :P
Dark Wizard 06-13-07, 08:25 PM	Since Faerûn isn't Sim Europe, that's not what's needed. I'm talking about a wealth of spontaneous, ingrained cultural and literary background, not academic historical knowledge and research. I'm not as overly focused on the academic as you think. I said your post made it sound like someone needed encyclopedic, advanced academic level knowledge of the area, including historical and cultural (which includes literary), in order to create a proper oriental setting. My point is your point but directed at you. I guess we had a miscommunication, but that is likely because I found your first point to be poorly worded compared with what you elaborated on. All those places draw on fantasy fiction, on the Forgotten Realms -- and the guys you mention are familiar with those things -- and distant third on historical influence. That was not your first point. It might be what you meant, but not how it seemd to be from your wording. It seemed like you wanted an Asian literary expert, or at least a well respected historical drama author to pen any OA area for the Realms. That is no feasible from a logistical standpoint and perhaps more importantly from a cultural standpoint. The audience of FR is mostly western and that does include the preconception of the fans, even towards the western-inspired places like Faerun. Well, if anyone creates the kind of setting you're thinking of, I'll take a look. I hope it's more Glorantha's Kralorela and less Rokuganlike ersatz confection. It's not easy, but not as impossible as I felt you made it sound. Just because it hasn't been done well for FR so far, doesn't mean it cannot happen.
Old Sage 06-13-07, 08:28 PM	Those creations of Troy Denning, Rick Swan, Jim Lowder, and Doug Niles are the classic, long-recognized examples of bad Realms worldbuilding. Jim not so much, but Troy is known for his bizarre setting infelicities, Rick never understood the Realms worth a damn and seems to have been writing for a quick freelance paycheck, while Doug created his Moonshaes for another world entirely.Ed discussed a little about his original LeGuin-styled islands here:- http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/jg-moonshaes.htm And, for me, I feel Ed's Halls of the High King, goes some way toward naturalizing Doug's independently conceived Moonshae Isles into the Realms.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 09:16 PM	Thanks for that Link, I didn't know that there was a 'Moonshaes' before before TSR UK's abandoned project. I was always a big fan of Earthsea, and the finished concept doesn't seem that different then what Ed had in mind. I just always felt that the Moonshaes were more a setting then a part of FR, and it was weird the way it was the introductory to the Realms and then ignored for years after.
Faraer 06-13-07, 09:54 PM	It seemed like you wanted an Asian literary expert, or at least a well respected historical drama author to pen any OA area for the Realms. That is no feasible from a logistical standpoint and perhaps more importantly from a cultural standpoint.Ideally someone who knows about Asia from inside rather than outside, such as someone bicultural. That would interest me, at least.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 11:20 PM	The problem with that is you would wind up once again with something way to close to the RW. I like my cultures to remind me of others, not actually BE them. I personally feel that someone who is a big fan of Oriental culture (Anime, Wuxia, etc...) might actually do a BETTER job creating something interesting, as opposed to a complete rip-off. So NO, experts need not apply. I don't like being told something is 'wrong' whilst creating a fantasy setting. Boring is wrong, not 'historic' facts that are incorrect. I'm sure most RW cultures were not nearly as interesting to the people living them then to us. So you see, the culture really isn't interesting, its our concept of it that makes it so. That's why the 'Hollywood' version always works better for a game. You might think being a medieval knight was cool, but you try running around in 100lbs of armor all day and then going home and NOT being able to take a shower, or even a decent s__t. The fantasy is always preferrable to the reality.
Dark Wizard 06-13-07, 11:52 PM	I personally feel that someone who is a big fan of Oriental culture (Anime, Wuxia, etc...) might actually do a BETTER job creating something interesting, as opposed to a complete rip-off. After reviewing the last few posts, I think we're all in agreement more or less, just using different terminology.
ShadezofDis 06-14-07, 08:20 AM	So NO, experts need not apply. I don't like being told something is 'wrong' whilst creating a fantasy setting. Boring is wrong, not 'historic' facts that are incorrect. Why would an "expert" (which is hardly a proper title for someone who grew up in the orient) be against creativity? I mean damn, you're making experts sound like facists. :) That was not your first point. That was not your impression of his first point. There's a difference. :) It seemed like you wanted an Asian literary expert, or at least a well respected historical drama author to pen any OA area for the Realms. That is no feasible from a logistical standpoint and perhaps more importantly from a cultural standpoint. The audience of FR is mostly western and that does include the preconception of the fans, even towards the western-inspired places like Faerun. Yeah. . . but. . . we still have cultures in FR that don't conform to the "fan preconceptions about 'medieval' times." If you had a cultural expert then you could keep in rough line with the spirit of the east and yet deviate enough to allow for a huge amount of creativity. I'm not saying that's what would happen, I'm just saying it's absolutely possible. :)
Faraer 06-14-07, 02:28 PM	The problem with that is you would wind up once again with something way to close to the RW. I like my cultures to remind me of others, not actually BE them.This is given Dark Wizard's theoretical plan to create a very well-executed pseudo-Asia for the Realms. My view is that Faerûn already had at least the beginnings of its own Orient and I'd have preferred development further east to be along the lines of Thay and Thesk, not Kara-Tur, no matter how well done. My interest in the kind of world a bicultural person could dream up is more for its own sake than the Realms'.I'm sure most RW cultures were not nearly as interesting to the people living them then to us. So you see, the culture really isn't interesting, its our concept of it that makes it so.Interesting perspective, but I find every culture more fascinating the more I find out about what it actually is, rather than what it looks like from the outside.That's why the 'Hollywood' version always works better for a game.Not always. It does if you want a superficial setting to laminate over standard themes and plots, and it can serve as part of a more in-depth setting.Why would an "expert" (which is hardly a proper title for someone who grew up in the orient) be against creativity?Quite. Just look at Tékumel, one of the great (and most imaginative) secondary worlds, which gains much from M.A.R. Barker's scholarship.
MarkusTay63 06-14-07, 03:50 PM	My posts pertain mostly to Kara-Tur, although some of the other forgotten regions would also apply. We have someone on these boards who was vehemenly opposed to ANY changes to Kara-Tur, because he liked that it was a direct copy of Real-world Asia. My point is, if you want to play in an exact copy of asia, why not just play in Asia? There are several games you can get that simulate the actual culture of Japan, China, etc... very well. If you want to play in the Realms, then why do you want RW China? :uh-huh: We had 'experts' the first time around, and although they did a decent job there was 0% creativity involved. The names were just changed to protect the innocent. :P Our new concept is to take all that has gone before and ADD to it, not change it. One old boxed set and a few modules didn't even cover 1/10 of what could be in an area the size of asia. To give one example, many clans are mentioned throughout the text, but NONE of them are fleshed-out! That alone could fill several volumes. We want to treat it like the 3e OA treated Rokugon's clans - with each clan bringing something a little different to the various classes. That is just on teensy tiny thing we can do, and we will have changed none of the worlds history. Things like 'witch doctors' are mentioned in text, but never explained, or 'Torcs', which are magical items used by the northern peoples, but never developed past a quick mention. So do you see my point? The experts are done, and the did their job by giving us a spring-board we can take off from, but now its time for the true fans, people who love everything it could be to polish up the old relic and make it SHINE! :dancin:
souldnce9 06-14-07, 04:38 PM	So uh........ What are ya waiting for? I would really like to see this change.
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 06:26 PM	So uh........ What are ya waiting for? I would really like to see this change. -A Grand History of the Realms. Currently, as MT said, we're just really bouncing ideas off of each other.
Dark Wizard 06-14-07, 09:54 PM	That was not your impression of his first point. There's a difference. I said as much in my statements preceeding and following that line. I'm quite aware of the difference, thank you. I've tried to be very clear about that. Quite. Just look at Tékumel, one of the great (and most imaginative) secondary worlds, which gains much from M.A.R. Barker's scholarship. Right, here's an author coming from an academic background creating a rich world (not based on the standard western themes nonetheless). The various FR designers have other backgrounds and the Eberron designers have different backgrounds from them. I was trying to say that there is no exact formula for a good setting designer, one can just hope that a designer takes in some relevant material influences and puts forth (or is allowed to put forth) a sufficient amount of creativity to make an interesting setting.
Faraer 06-14-07, 10:15 PM	Absolutely, good settings come out of all sorts of places. As well as imagination: Middle-earth -- Roman Catholicism, philology and war experience Glorantha -- comparative mythology and shamanic practice World of Greyhawk -- 20th-century fantasy fiction, wargaming and medievalism Managing a shared world written by people with different backgrounds and approaches is a historically new and difficult challenge. TSR and Wizards could have done much worse, and much better.