Zhentarim and the Harpers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Zhentarim and the Harpers [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MikeR7716
06-28-07, 11:29 AM These two groups are obviously at odds with each other, but how strong is the hatred? I am considering a campaign based in Zhentil Keep immediately after the destruction of the main keep. How would a Harper treat an ex-Zhentarim member? One player has expressed an interest in a Harper focused character while another has talked about a character who has seen the chaos of the attack on ZK as an opportunity to seperate himself from the Zhentarim. Would it be reasonable that these would co-exist in a party (i.e. Harpers would view ex-Zhent as reformed) or is this too much conflict (i.e. Harpers don't believe in ex-Zhents).
captaincarot
06-28-07, 12:00 PM once a zhent always a zhent.

but the harpers are a bit more forgiving than I.

not that they would reveal them selves openly to an ex zhent, because an openl;y ex zhent is just a badly disguised zhent spy.

best solution for em is target practice with my axe.
The_Wrath_of_Talos
06-28-07, 04:05 PM If your wondering about ex-zhent and harper relationships just ask Jak and Riven they'll tell you all about it.
Eccerion
06-28-07, 04:37 PM The harpers would be extreamly suspicious about a so called "ex-zhentarim", since they know deception, infiltration and subterfuge are areas the zhents have alot of experience in.
If they could "rehabilitate" a zhentarim and have him join them that would be a good thing, but they would tread very carefully with such an individual, use of Detect evil, detec thoughts and keeping the guy under observation would only be the tip of the iceberg.

As for the relation between the Zhentarim and the Harpers, the zhents look on the harpers as meddeling goodie goodies who cant keep their noses out of others buisness.
The harpers look at the Zhentarim as evil, scheeming, powerhungry tyrants who want to squeeze everyone under their thumb.

Both are right ;)
Meldread
06-28-07, 05:34 PM Eccerion hit the nail on the head. The ironic thing is both groups are exactly the same only with a different moral outlook.

While the harpers see the Zhentarim as individuals skilled in deception, infiltration and subterfuge the harpers are no different. The harpers are also schemers seeking to manipulate and force everyone (indirectly) under their thumb so they can push them in the "right" direction.

The only difference between both groups is the motives behind their actions. However, your average nobleman or commoner is likely to have a poor view of both as a result. Nobles would hate the Harpers for their endless meddling and would hate the Zents for their ceaseless grabs for power. The commoner would be similarly annoyed believing that both groups just make his or her life all the more difficult in the process.
Fillow
06-29-07, 03:32 PM If your wondering about ex-zhent and harper relationships just ask Jak and Riven they'll tell you all about it.

What do you want to say ? Who are they ?
The_Wrath_of_Talos
06-29-07, 03:49 PM What do you want to say ? Who are they ?

They are two main charectors from the Everis Cale Trilogy. Jak is a harper or at least an ex-harper and Riven is an ex-Zhent. Duo to them both having a "type" of partnership with Cale they are forced to work with each other. Lets just say its an interesting relationship up until one of them ends up taking a dirt nap.
XHereticX
06-29-07, 04:09 PM Certain places have a lot of Zhents and Harpers, those places are bound to have more corpses than both as well;)
The Ubbergeek
06-30-07, 07:34 PM The commoner would be similarly annoyed believing that both groups just make his or her life all the more difficult in the process.

Only, the Harpers actually WORK for the masses. AGAINST the leaders.

They have a certain pre-socialist feel to them!

Just look at their actions in Maztica, where they help natives.
Meldread
07-01-07, 12:04 AM Only, the Harpers actually WORK for the masses. AGAINST the leaders.

Yes, and more often than not it's the people they're trying to help who suffer along the way. The Harper's aren't all sugar, spice and everything nice. They're a terrorist organization who is dedicated to removing those who do not fit with their ideal vision of the world. When you rip down the establishment you create chaotic environments and it is the people who suffer in those environments. Just about anyone who is Lawful may have a problem with the Harpers to an extent, even if they are Lawful Good.
The Ubbergeek
07-01-07, 01:28 AM Terrorists, the Harpers? Talk about modern relatism moral twisted.

First, they are chaotic Good much for the majority, I bet. Or one step close.

Second, a ruler may claim he is right in his position, legal, bla bla bla.... Tyrants are tyrants. Lawfull =/= Good.

They are good two shoes, but at least, they do good. Fighting The Men.

And the proble is also that even if the realms seem a liberal and pagan version of Middle Age, it's still a very dark places in quite a few places... Slavery, by example, is legal and there. Opression of men by men.

Sad world where the ones who stand up and rise the fists are bashed down...

(Is it me who say that all?)
Meldread
07-01-07, 01:55 AM Terrorists, the Harpers? Talk about modern relatism moral twisted.
That's only because you're thinking about it in modern terms, which is not how I meant or applied it. Terrorism is hardly a new or modern concept, nor does it involve suicide. The definition of terrorism: "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

So yes, the Harpers are by definition a terrorist organization. Unless they are actively controlling a government, or actively holding some sway over it, they are certainly on the "watch list" of groups.

First, they are chaotic Good much for the majority, I bet. Or one step close.
Yes, I would agree that most of them are most likely Chaotic Good. I'm not sure what that really has to do with it though. It's the chaotic part that makes them terrorists, not the good part.

They are good two shoes, but at least, they do good. Fighting The Men.
Sure, you can say they do good from an outsiders prospective. If, however, the Harpers tore down your government and assisted in having someone else placed on the throne would you agree? Especially if you believed the king was nothing more than a puppet for the organization. Not to mention the methods, more often than not, are questionable at best.

Most people resist change. That's just human nature. The Harpers are an instrument of change, desiring to reform the world to their ideological point of view. Believe it or not, good can disagree on what is good and what is not. The Harpers, as you said, are mostly chaotic which is going to rub most lawful individuals the wrong way, including Lawful Good.

Sad world where the ones who stand up and rise the fists are bashed down.
I am not sure what the problem is, because I was just calling a spade a spade. :P
bitter thorn
07-01-07, 12:28 PM The harpers would be extreamly suspicious about a so called "ex-zhentarim", since they know deception, infiltration and subterfuge are areas the zhents have alot of experience in.
If they could "rehabilitate" a zhentarim and have him join them that would be a good thing, but they would tread very carefully with such an individual, use of Detect evil, detec thoughts and keeping the guy under observation would only be the tip of the iceberg.

As for the relation between the Zhentarim and the Harpers, the zhents look on the harpers as meddeling goodie goodies who cant keep their noses out of others buisness.
The harpers look at the Zhentarim as evil, scheeming, powerhungry tyrants who want to squeeze everyone under their thumb.

Both are right ;)

I concur with Eccerion. Keep in mind, or course, that there are widely variable levels of involvement with both organizations. Obviously not every Zhent caravan gaurd or wizard for hire is all that committed to the goals of the Black Network. For some folks, particularly in the Moonsea region, it's just the work that happens to be available. Likewise, not every merchant who passes rumors on to some Bard and Ranger associates is what we would tend to think of as a true Harper.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MikeR7716 06-28-07, 11:29 AM	These two groups are obviously at odds with each other, but how strong is the hatred? I am considering a campaign based in Zhentil Keep immediately after the destruction of the main keep. How would a Harper treat an ex-Zhentarim member? One player has expressed an interest in a Harper focused character while another has talked about a character who has seen the chaos of the attack on ZK as an opportunity to seperate himself from the Zhentarim. Would it be reasonable that these would co-exist in a party (i.e. Harpers would view ex-Zhent as reformed) or is this too much conflict (i.e. Harpers don't believe in ex-Zhents).
captaincarot 06-28-07, 12:00 PM	once a zhent always a zhent. but the harpers are a bit more forgiving than I. not that they would reveal them selves openly to an ex zhent, because an openl;y ex zhent is just a badly disguised zhent spy. best solution for em is target practice with my axe.
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-28-07, 04:05 PM	If your wondering about ex-zhent and harper relationships just ask Jak and Riven they'll tell you all about it.
Eccerion 06-28-07, 04:37 PM	The harpers would be extreamly suspicious about a so called "ex-zhentarim", since they know deception, infiltration and subterfuge are areas the zhents have alot of experience in. If they could "rehabilitate" a zhentarim and have him join them that would be a good thing, but they would tread very carefully with such an individual, use of Detect evil, detec thoughts and keeping the guy under observation would only be the tip of the iceberg. As for the relation between the Zhentarim and the Harpers, the zhents look on the harpers as meddeling goodie goodies who cant keep their noses out of others buisness. The harpers look at the Zhentarim as evil, scheeming, powerhungry tyrants who want to squeeze everyone under their thumb. Both are right ;)
Meldread 06-28-07, 05:34 PM	Eccerion hit the nail on the head. The ironic thing is both groups are exactly the same only with a different moral outlook. While the harpers see the Zhentarim as individuals skilled in deception, infiltration and subterfuge the harpers are no different. The harpers are also schemers seeking to manipulate and force everyone (indirectly) under their thumb so they can push them in the "right" direction. The only difference between both groups is the motives behind their actions. However, your average nobleman or commoner is likely to have a poor view of both as a result. Nobles would hate the Harpers for their endless meddling and would hate the Zents for their ceaseless grabs for power. The commoner would be similarly annoyed believing that both groups just make his or her life all the more difficult in the process.
Fillow 06-29-07, 03:32 PM	If your wondering about ex-zhent and harper relationships just ask Jak and Riven they'll tell you all about it. What do you want to say ? Who are they ?
The_Wrath_of_Talos 06-29-07, 03:49 PM	What do you want to say ? Who are they ? They are two main charectors from the Everis Cale Trilogy. Jak is a harper or at least an ex-harper and Riven is an ex-Zhent. Duo to them both having a "type" of partnership with Cale they are forced to work with each other. Lets just say its an interesting relationship up until one of them ends up taking a dirt nap.
XHereticX 06-29-07, 04:09 PM	Certain places have a lot of Zhents and Harpers, those places are bound to have more corpses than both as well;)
The Ubbergeek 06-30-07, 07:34 PM	The commoner would be similarly annoyed believing that both groups just make his or her life all the more difficult in the process. Only, the Harpers actually WORK for the masses. AGAINST the leaders. They have a certain pre-socialist feel to them! Just look at their actions in Maztica, where they help natives.
Meldread 07-01-07, 12:04 AM	Only, the Harpers actually WORK for the masses. AGAINST the leaders. Yes, and more often than not it's the people they're trying to help who suffer along the way. The Harper's aren't all sugar, spice and everything nice. They're a terrorist organization who is dedicated to removing those who do not fit with their ideal vision of the world. When you rip down the establishment you create chaotic environments and it is the people who suffer in those environments. Just about anyone who is Lawful may have a problem with the Harpers to an extent, even if they are Lawful Good.
The Ubbergeek 07-01-07, 01:28 AM	Terrorists, the Harpers? Talk about modern relatism moral twisted. First, they are chaotic Good much for the majority, I bet. Or one step close. Second, a ruler may claim he is right in his position, legal, bla bla bla.... Tyrants are tyrants. Lawfull =/= Good. They are good two shoes, but at least, they do good. Fighting The Men. And the proble is also that even if the realms seem a liberal and pagan version of Middle Age, it's still a very dark places in quite a few places... Slavery, by example, is legal and there. Opression of men by men. Sad world where the ones who stand up and rise the fists are bashed down... (Is it me who say that all?)
Meldread 07-01-07, 01:55 AM	Terrorists, the Harpers? Talk about modern relatism moral twisted. That's only because you're thinking about it in modern terms, which is not how I meant or applied it. Terrorism is hardly a new or modern concept, nor does it involve suicide. The definition of terrorism: "The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons." So yes, the Harpers are by definition a terrorist organization. Unless they are actively controlling a government, or actively holding some sway over it, they are certainly on the "watch list" of groups. First, they are chaotic Good much for the majority, I bet. Or one step close. Yes, I would agree that most of them are most likely Chaotic Good. I'm not sure what that really has to do with it though. It's the chaotic part that makes them terrorists, not the good part. They are good two shoes, but at least, they do good. Fighting The Men. Sure, you can say they do good from an outsiders prospective. If, however, the Harpers tore down your government and assisted in having someone else placed on the throne would you agree? Especially if you believed the king was nothing more than a puppet for the organization. Not to mention the methods, more often than not, are questionable at best. Most people resist change. That's just human nature. The Harpers are an instrument of change, desiring to reform the world to their ideological point of view. Believe it or not, good can disagree on what is good and what is not. The Harpers, as you said, are mostly chaotic which is going to rub most lawful individuals the wrong way, including Lawful Good. Sad world where the ones who stand up and rise the fists are bashed down. I am not sure what the problem is, because I was just calling a spade a spade. :P
bitter thorn 07-01-07, 12:28 PM	The harpers would be extreamly suspicious about a so called "ex-zhentarim", since they know deception, infiltration and subterfuge are areas the zhents have alot of experience in. If they could "rehabilitate" a zhentarim and have him join them that would be a good thing, but they would tread very carefully with such an individual, use of Detect evil, detec thoughts and keeping the guy under observation would only be the tip of the iceberg. As for the relation between the Zhentarim and the Harpers, the zhents look on the harpers as meddeling goodie goodies who cant keep their noses out of others buisness. The harpers look at the Zhentarim as evil, scheeming, powerhungry tyrants who want to squeeze everyone under their thumb. Both are right ;) I concur with Eccerion. Keep in mind, or course, that there are widely variable levels of involvement with both organizations. Obviously not every Zhent caravan gaurd or wizard for hire is all that committed to the goals of the Black Network. For some folks, particularly in the Moonsea region, it's just the work that happens to be available. Likewise, not every merchant who passes rumors on to some Bard and Ranger associates is what we would tend to think of as a true Harper.