Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eric Anondson 02-05-07, 04:48 AM	My character I have been playing since 2001 is finally nearing 15the level. He has gone through a few rebuilds over the years, and even a change in concept due to rather major events at a module premier and due to PrC changes from 3.0 to 3.5. Here is my shield bashing Holy Liberator of Trithereon mutt. Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 15 1st Ranger 1 (Iron Will, Imp. Shield Bash, Track) Favored enemy: evil outsider 2nd Ranger 2 (TWF) 3rd Ranger 3 (Imp Toughness, Endurance) 4th ex-Monk 1 (Imp. Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist) (+1 Str) 5th ex-Monk 2 (Deflect Arrows) 6th Barbarian 1 (Shield Charge) Rage, fast movement 7th Holy Liberator 1 Detect evil, smite evil 1/day 8th Holy Liberator 2 (+1 Str) Remove fatigue 9th Holy Liberator 3 (Shield Slam) Aura of resolve 10th Fighter 1 (Power Attack) 11th Holy Liberator 4 Break enchantment 1/week, divine grace 12th Holy Liberator 5 (Leadership) (+1 Cha) Smite evil 2/day 13th Holy Liberator 6 Celestial companion 14th Holy Liberator 7 For the 4th level spells, esp. freedom of movement and holy sword Equipment of note: Periapt of Wisdom (+6, making it 18) Belt of Giant Strength (+4, making it 20) Cloak of Charisma (+4, making it 20) Gauntlets of Dex (+2, making it 14) Headband of Intellect (+2, making it 10) Vest of Resistance (+2) Boots of Speed Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose) Ring of Prot. (+3) +1 mithril breastplate of heavy fortification +3 adamantine spiked heavy shield of bashing, plus keen, ghost touch and spell storing enchanted as weapon bonuses. His cohort is a dwarven wizard (actually transmuter 9/argent savant 3), whose primary routine is to buff the primary character with a Quicken enlarge person followed by polymorph, into either a troll or annis hag. His primary weapon is his spiked shield, with the off-hand unarmed. The unarmed hand can be brought in to stunning fist when needed, it is also available to cast spells, or can Deflect Arrows. Plus, by grabbing the spiked shield he can attack two-handed and pump in some Power Attack... especially fun with this perfect storm: after he has cast righteous fury, raged, and cohort has enlarged/polymorphed him into a troll or annis hag as the Fort save DC for the Shield Slam is then 32 or 33. Now... I have been putting off deciding what to do for 15th level because my choices seemed quite unimpressive and at the rate I was playing I didn't think I'd get there fast. Well, I'm almost there and I really need to think about what I can choose, or what would really pay off. I've thought about Fighter for the bonus feat, but what to choose? His weapon is already keened, so he doesn't need Improved Critical. Barbarian for uncanny dodge, but his Dex bonus isn't that large that he'd get much from it. I thought about Horizon Walker because Knowledge (geography) was maxed from Ranger and I had been putting in some cross class skill points to bring it to 8 ranks, but the only terrain mastery that impressed me was Underground to get darkvision 60 ft. Another Holy Liberator level would raise the smite evil to +8 damage and give another 4th level spell/day, the extra break enchantment would be worthless because DCs at his APL now are silly compared with his caster level. Almost all the options I have looked at are pretty equally tame and boring. The PHB2 might open up some other decent options that will make a level in Fighter attractive, but I haven't given it a look. *shrug* Any opinions?
UMiskatonic 02-05-07, 11:01 AM	Well, you're right, a lot of the choices are about the same. Anything that has good BAB and hit points will do fine at this point. I'd go with Ftr 2. Use the ftr feat and the 15th level feat to qualify for Pious Templar. When you hit 16th level, you're in (assuming there's some K(religion in there). It's a great reason to retire, because now you're sworn to defense of a particular temple. It's also great mechanically, gives you more smiting/spellcasting, plus Mettle, and two good saves.
Eric Anondson 02-05-07, 05:06 PM	While this character is 14th level, he has yet to play an adventure at this level, so I could rearrange some skill points to put the Know (religion) to 4 ranks. I remember considering Pious Templar years ago for some of this character's higher levels, but I dismissed it back then because of the feat requirement. I'd need Weapon Focus (spear), a total dump feat, and the character's saving throws are very very high. He's immune to charms and compulsions. He has evasion, plus the high saves, and he's almost always good. Mettle seems to mostly be a benefit for some Necromancy effects, especially some [Fear] and [Death] effects. Plus the inflict series of spells. This character seems to make most of his saves right now. But mettle does give me something to think about... After some more thought, especially thinking about boosting up the saves to [Fear] effects, I think I do have a clear idea what I will do for my class choice at level 15. I will take a level in fighter. With his 15th-level character feat he will choose World Weary (he's from the Shield Lands) for a +4 bonus against fear plus all fear effects are one rank lower. With the fighter bonus feat his choice will be either Weakening Touch or Freeze the Lifeblood, probably Weakening Touch because there is no save to its effect. He has 5 stunning fists per day right now and doesn't seem to ever use them all up.
_m_ 02-05-07, 06:39 PM	i dont think you can enlarge and poly. you cant stack multiple enlarge effect spells. like animal growthing a wildshaped druid.
Mommy was an Orc 02-05-07, 06:46 PM	i dont think you can enlarge and poly. you cant stack multiple enlarge effect spells. like animal growthing a wildshaped druid. He's not stacking the effects - he's turning himself into a large person, so that when he's changed into a large monstrous humanoid, most or all of his gear sticks around... Using Enlarge Person+Polymorph to turn into something Huge is illegal, though.
Eric Anondson 02-05-07, 06:59 PM	He's not stacking the effects - he's turning himself into a large person, so that when he's changed into a large monstrous humanoid, most or all of his gear sticks around...Precisely.:cool:
_m_ 02-05-07, 07:03 PM	Using Enlarge Person+Polymorph to turn into something Huge is illegal, though. thats what i thought he meant.
Golorious 02-05-07, 08:32 PM	Well Eric you might want to consider waiting till the next LGCS comes out before making any specific plans. Who knows what will come out of PHB two. Blind fight - under estimated and there are a lot of things with miss chance. Close quarters fighting is handy for stopping some grapples (easier when you are enlarged which happens a lot). Freezing the Life Blood is a good option for save dc 22 and paralyze (it wont work a lot on big bad guys but when it does the fight is over for it) but it will be really well on anything that doesn't have a good fort save. Weakening touch is not bad either the -6 str penalty w/o a save is nice -3 to hit and damage is handy but not a show stopper. PHBII feats Two weapon rend (if you get +4 gloves) Two weapon pounce (+4 Gloves) Brutal Assault - just fun but works better for two-handed weapons Flay - just fun but works better for two-handed weapons Versatile Unarmed Strike helps with pesky dr weapon types. Fiery Fist and Ki Blast Extra damage and ranged attack Acrobatic strike if you have enough tumble ranks (I think you have some) Shield Specialization and Agile Shield fighter (get a second shield) Monk can still kick to get a stun in. Armor Specialization for DR 2/- a little Dr can add up faster then people think. If really luckily then these would get approved and set you up for the high level campaign feat chain. Combat focus Combat Stability Combat Vigor
Eric Anondson 02-06-07, 12:52 AM	Well Eric you might want to consider waiting till the next LGCS comes out before making any specific plans. Who knows what will come out of PHB two.Hey Golorious.:detect: ;) I don't think I'll have to worry about the PHB 2 throwing a wrench in my choosing. I don't get that much play in that this character would come close to getting to 15th level by the time the next LGSC is out. ;) So I am totally open to looking at the PHB2. Blind fight - under estimated and there are a lot of things with miss chance. Close quarters fighting is handy for stopping some grapples (easier when you are enlarged which happens a lot). Freezing the Life Blood is a good option for save dc 22 and paralyze (it wont work a lot on big bad guys but when it does the fight is over for it) but it will be really well on anything that doesn't have a good fort save. Weakening touch is not bad either the -6 str penalty w/o a save is nice -3 to hit and damage is handy but not a show stopper.I think I'm one of those that underestimates it, after closely reading it I think its going to be a top contender. Close Quarters is the same way I guess, although this character has fought creatures that grappled it was usually situations where it wasn't even a close call on his fighting it, usually getting saved by someone dim dooring away... but now he has also freedom of movement as a spell... I'll still give it some consideration.PHBII feats Two weapon rend (if you get +4 gloves) Two weapon pounce (+4 Gloves) Brutal Assault - just fun but works better for two-handed weapons Flay - just fun but works better for two-handed weapons Versatile Unarmed Strike helps with pesky dr weapon types. Fiery Fist and Ki Blast Extra damage and ranged attack Acrobatic strike if you have enough tumble ranks (I think you have some) Shield Specialization and Agile Shield fighter (get a second shield) Monk can still kick to get a stun in. Armor Specialization for DR 2/- a little Dr can add up faster then people think.Two-Weapon Pounce looks better to me. To deal extra damage he's usually better off grabbing the shield with his other hand and slamming it as a two-handed weapon Power Attack that the extra damage from a Two-Weapon Rend. Brutal Assault, did you mean Brutal Strike? I thought about it but, one, adding spikes to a shield changes it from a bludgeoning to piercing, instead of the arguably more logical bludgeoning and piercing. And two, Shield Slam's daze effect for 1 round is nicer than Brutal Strike's sickened effect. :) Almost the same comparison with Shield Slam and Flay, except one thing I noticed is that a Shield Slam can only work on a single attack while Brutal Strike and Flay both can be used on all attacks that have been bumped by Power Attack, thus increasing the odds it works I guess. Then compare Flay with Weakening Touch, Flay gives –2 to attacks for 1 round on a failed Fort save, while Weakening Touch bestows a –6 Str (–3 to attack and –3 to damage) penalty for 1 minute with no save. I think Weakening Touch beats both Flay (with his spiked shield) and Brutal Strike (with his improved unarmed strike) handily. Rarely fight damage type DR that Versitile Unarmed Strike would help, plus I got bludgeoning and piercing covered. :) Fiery Fist and Ki Blast, I never flurry where the Fiery Fist would be really helpful but the Ki Blast... THAT seems fun and bizarre and different! Being able to throw three 3d6+4 balls of force a day, whether it would make a difference at high APLs... but still... thinking... seems wacky enough. Acrobatic Strike, he does have Tumble ranks, but not 12 that this feat needs. Not sure if Shield Specialization and Agile Shield Fighter would allow me to do anything different than what I already can do. I didn't want a second shield because I prefer the open hand to be available to cast spells and Deflect Arrows. I thought briefly about Shield Ward however... Armor Specialization is high on my list of alternatives.If really luckily then these would get approved and set you up for the high level campaign feat chain. Combat focus Combat Stability Combat Vigor:drool:
Golorious 02-08-07, 09:13 PM	Shield Specialization and Agile Shield fighter. If the second shield is a light shield you can still cast spells and hold something in that hand. That may stop the blocking arrows thing. However, I agree that it is not an optimal choice. It is too bad you don't have a good feat choice for re-training. The only possible one is improved toughness. Everything else is too central to the shield bashing or needed for your PrC. Then you could get two of the feats instead of one. If you are heading to the High Level campaign (which I don't even know if anyone is doing in our area) then I would re-train into as many combat focus, combat stability and combat Vigor. Take a level in fighter retrain improved toughness to combat focus then take combat vigor and combat stability. 3 focus feats :) +4 will saves, +8 resist grapple, bull rush, disarm, trip, FAST HEALING 4 :) which will make up for Improved toughness. You just need to hit someone right away in a fight... like the Cohort! :eek: Without polymorph around :weep: you will have less hp then you would with your cohort around. (Which means he will likely take bears endurance instead of polymorph) So things that reduce damage will be more useful. Weakening Touch and Armor specialization. Otherwise my top 4 are... Weakening Touch Blind fight Close quarters combat Armor Specialization. It is too bad it doesn't work with greater resilience. Extra Rage is out there too but rage for you has always seemed more like a last resort. Though that may change if you do it 3 times per day. But then you can't cast spells until the rage is done.
Eric Anondson 02-08-07, 11:42 PM	If you are heading to the High Level campaign (which I don't even know if anyone is doing in our area) then I would re-train into as many combat focus, combat stability and combat Vigor. Take a level in fighter retrain improved toughness to combat focus then take combat vigor and combat stability. 3 focus feats :) +4 will saves, +8 resist grapple, bull rush, disarm, trip, FAST HEALING 4 :) which will make up for Improved toughness. You just need to hit someone right away in a fight... like the Cohort! :eek:About retraining, I am considering the Combat Focus quite you are suggesting. And you are right, Improved Toughness looks to be the top contender. I took Improved Toughness primarily because of a permanent hit point loss the character has suffered from the Highfolk premier of Knife in the Wound. Getting the character back involved losing all character wealth (about 30,000 gp in wealth) and a permanent hit point loss representing the months of endless torture/death/ressurection in Iuz's dungeons beneath Dorakaa. Oh, and he was shaken every time the DM judged that the character believed he was facing a demon, for a full year... evil judges regularly ruled he was shaken. Anyway... So he still has the hit point penalty, which is mild after 14 levels, but at around 6 levels, Improved Toughness made a difference. I am considering getting a different cohort, maybe a bard/marshal, cleric, or healer. His Leadership score gives him enough room to take the –1 hit to the Leadership score for cohorts (thanks to the Critwall Orphanage metaorg!). Without polymorph around :weep: you will have less hp then you would with your cohort around. (Which means he will likely take bears endurance instead of polymorph) So things that reduce damage will be more useful. Weakening Touch and Armor specialization. Otherwise my top 4 are... Weakening Touch Blind fight Close quarters combat Armor Specialization. It is too bad it doesn't work with greater resilience. Extra Rage is out there too but rage for you has always seemed more like a last resort. Though that may change if you do it 3 times per day. But then you can't cast spells until the rage is done.You are right that raging is something I don't do often lately. You know what's funny, those four are exactly the same I have narrowed my list to! I was close to considering Two Weapon Pounce to be able to charge and deliver a Shield Slam/Charge daze/trip attack plus a –6 Str from the unarmed attack. However the Weakening Touch doesn't stack and the value of delivering it on the charge attack versus delivering on the Full Attack the next round seems marginal. Armor Specialization would give me greater value over the extended combat.
Gaelforcwynd 02-09-07, 09:06 AM	My character I have been playing since 2001 is finally nearing 15the level. He has gone through a few rebuilds over the years, and even a change in concept due to rather major events at a module premier and due to PrC changes from 3.0 to 3.5. Here is my shield bashing Holy Liberator of Trithereon mutt. Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 15 1st Ranger 1 (Iron Will, Imp. Shield Bash, Track) Favored enemy: evil outsider 2nd Ranger 2 (TWF) 3rd Ranger 3 (Imp Toughness, Endurance) 4th ex-Monk 1 (Imp. Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist) (+1 Str) 5th ex-Monk 2 (Deflect Arrows) 6th Barbarian 1 (Shield Charge) Rage, fast movement 7th Holy Liberator 1 Detect evil, smite evil 1/day 8th Holy Liberator 2 (+1 Str) Remove fatigue 9th Holy Liberator 3 (Shield Slam) Aura of resolve 10th Fighter 1 (Power Attack) 11th Holy Liberator 4 Break enchantment 1/week, divine grace 12th Holy Liberator 5 (Leadership) (+1 Cha) Smite evil 2/day 13th Holy Liberator 6 Celestial companion 14th Holy Liberator 7 For the 4th level spells, esp. freedom of movement and holy sword Equipment of note: Periapt of Wisdom (+6, making it 18) Belt of Giant Strength (+4, making it 20) Cloak of Charisma (+4, making it 20) Gauntlets of Dex (+2, making it 14) Headband of Intellect (+2, making it 10) Vest of Resistance (+2) Boots of Speed Ioun Stone (Dusty Rose) Ring of Prot. (+3) +1 mithril breastplate of heavy fortification +3 adamantine spiked heavy shield of bashing, plus keen, ghost touch and spell storing enchanted as weapon bonuses. His cohort is a dwarven wizard (actually transmuter 9/argent savant 3), whose primary routine is to buff the primary character with a Quicken enlarge person followed by polymorph, into either a troll or annis hag. His primary weapon is his spiked shield, with the off-hand unarmed. The unarmed hand can be brought in to stunning fist when needed, it is also available to cast spells, or can Deflect Arrows. Plus, by grabbing the spiked shield he can attack two-handed and pump in some Power Attack... especially fun with this perfect storm: after he has cast righteous fury, raged, and cohort has enlarged/polymorphed him into a troll or annis hag as the Fort save DC for the Shield Slam is then 32 or 33. Now... I have been putting off deciding what to do for 15th level because my choices seemed quite unimpressive and at the rate I was playing I didn't think I'd get there fast. Well, I'm almost there and I really need to think about what I can choose, or what would really pay off. I've thought about Fighter for the bonus feat, but what to choose? His weapon is already keened, so he doesn't need Improved Critical. Barbarian for uncanny dodge, but his Dex bonus isn't that large that he'd get much from it. I thought about Horizon Walker because Knowledge (geography) was maxed from Ranger and I had been putting in some cross class skill points to bring it to 8 ranks, but the only terrain mastery that impressed me was Underground to get darkvision 60 ft. Another Holy Liberator level would raise the smite evil to +8 damage and give another 4th level spell/day, the extra break enchantment would be worthless because DCs at his APL now are silly compared with his caster level. Almost all the options I have looked at are pretty equally tame and boring. The PHB2 might open up some other decent options that will make a level in Fighter attractive, but I haven't given it a look. *shrug* Any opinions? Forgive my noobishness, but doesn't taking a level in certain classes (Paladin?) give you an XP penalty? I would look at getting some kind of penalty to XP, so you can play longer! :)
Eric Anondson 02-09-07, 01:52 PM	If all your classes are within one level of each other, then there is no XP penalty. Humans, which my character is, don't count their highest level class, Ranger in this case. Prestige classes like Holy Liberator don't count for XP penalties. So for this character what matters is ex-Monk 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1, all within one level of each other thus no XP penalty. To put myself into XP penalty range I'd have to take another level of ranger or monk. 4th level of ranger is not much, and I can't go back to monk really but another of monk would be very pointless for abilities being that the character is already immune to charms and compulsions. I don't get to play him that often to begin with, he's actually been around since 2001. :)
Golorious 02-09-07, 09:34 PM	A new Cohort might be the thing to do in your case. There are still a lot of spells out there for a wizard to buff you though. Haste & Quicken enlarge is still handy, plus he has the blast spells too. Heroism, Greater heroism... you just might need to look at different spells. Greater magic weapon +3. Bard is good too when you are 15th level she will be 13th level, give her a lute and the spell inspirational boost and that is +4+4 morale bonus inspire courage. There are a lot of bard builds. Warchanter has some good options too. Look at some of the song feats but get lingering song so she can cast haste an what not and still have inspire for 10 rounds. Marshal 4/Bard 8 .. grant move action 1 time per day which is very nice, +1 damage major aura inspire courage +3+3 with inspiration boost. Plus all the minor auras that can help you out. Initiative bonus, charging bonus, flanking bonus etc... you could also do the major aura DR 1/- it is a circumstance bonus and stack with your armor specialization since it is of the same type. Giving you DR 3/- Marshal 12 Grant move action 3 times per day. 6 minor auras 3 major auras. Make sure to take inspire spell power for the casters. Surprisingly versatile, but maybe not optimal. Major aura +2 Get a special mission for double aura feat to have 2 major aura's going.(dragon magic feat) Bard Dragon song singer would be great! Just one level you can sing +4 morale bonus to strength :) but it is a limited class that requires a limited feat. Marshal 8 bard 4 isn't bad either +2 major aura, grant move action 2 times and inspirational boost +2+2 inspire courage. Cleric of tritherion might also be fun. 12th level caster can cast 6th level spells so there is a lot there. With Strength domain you can still quicken enlarge, spell immunity and stone skin. Liberation domain gives you the rage spell which can give you a second rage in the day. Recitation same god so +3 luck bonus to ac, attack rolls and saving throws (4th level spell) Righteous wrath of the faithful +3 morale bonus to attacks and damage plus one additional melee attack per round (does not stack with haste) 5th level Greater magic weapon +3, Magic Vestments +3 Is your shield wooden? spikes would be good +2 to hit enhancement and +10 damage, double crit range... err wait you are already keen. hmm well Brambles would still give you +10 damage enhancement. I'm not sure it would work or not with the shield spikes getting in the way. Druid is also something to consider. Natural armor buffs, Greater Magic Fang +4, better elemental damage then a cleric, stone skin, Mass camouflage, Tortoise shell, fires of purity, enveloping cocoon and vigor spells. Spikes and brambles and tons of other stuff plus an animal companion. Consider beast master for 1 level to get a larger companion.
Eric Anondson 02-09-07, 10:12 PM	A new Cohort might be the thing to do in your case.My eyes were pausing over the possibility over a healer 12, with a lamasu celestial companion. Lamasu themselves are 7th level clerics. But that would be too much to keep track of on the battlefield. Kaenth, his celestial companion (I rarely call it because it's a bother), healer cohort, and her lamasu companion. :gah: I'm going to make up some sample cohorts to see what looks best. It would be funny to have the highest level cleric of Trithereon in the Shield Lands... and have it be his cohort. :P