Post/Author/DateTime	Post
D.K.R. 07-24-07, 09:12 PM	Okay, my friend and I are brand new to the RPGA, though not to roleplaying in general. He has been playing 3.0/3.5 for a few years, but is still in many ways stuck in AD&D mindsets (his favorite class is still 'thief', and he has a lot of memory lapses when it comes to both rules and flavor changes from the old days). I am not a total powergamer, but fairly familiar with 3.5 and a decent player and DM. We're both making characters for our first 'Con, and he's turning to me for assistance for several reasons. One, we want characters that synergize well, so we can play them together locally (assuming we find open LG games, which I think we can) as well as at this con. Two, he is no completely inept at character creation, but his characters tend to lag far behind when he makes them without advice. Three, and related to 2, he is still in many ways stuck and the past, and realizes this; so wants help to make sure it stays legal and effective. Though he prefers rogue (thief) characters, his style with them doesn't seem like it would work well in the LG world...he is more often a brazen pick-pocket and secondary trap-monkey, with next to no focus on social skills or combat. So, while I know rogues as a whole could fit in well with any game if made/played right, I don't think it is the best choice for him. His next preference is the brick, meat-shield, tank, or (I think I am using the term right) 'cork'... as I have seen it called on these boards. I saw the post about the paladin who uses a special mount as more of a companion, and mentioned to him the basic concept of the build in that thread, Cleric (St. Cuthbert) 1 / Paladin 14. He likes the idea, and immediately wanted to play a sword-and-board fighting style, hoping to get a mount that can flank and get some nice extra attacks, as well as help him hold the line for the back-liners. I suggested he go shield and flail, to get the tripping, and just stick with a standard warhorse for now until he sees what 'access' he gets (if any). Any advice on equipment, feats, race, and stats for that? I am assuming human for the feat, or dwarf for the HP (though this hurts CHA, and the build makes a lot of use of smiting). He wants the build to be melee focused, not mounted combat...the mount would be ridden only occasionally, mostly used as a sidekick. As to my character... I typically play the bard or caster of a group, preferring arcane but nearly as equally comfortable with divine. I've enjoyed many druid characters, but I have seen hints of some major changes to the class in the RPGA, and am not sure if it would be wise for my first? Aside from that, a theurge type would be fun, but I am not certain if they are effective in LG, as I haven't seen a single thread on them. What would mesh best with the above build (assuming we will play together the majority of the time), and also work well in most groups? We reside in the County of Urnst (Colorado), but are contemplating making the characters for the Greyhawk region... again, any advice on that for noobs? Thanks for all your help!
CdrcJsn 07-24-07, 09:30 PM	Play two clerics. Seriously. Have your friend play the not so smart half-orc cleric of a War god with 18 Strength (14 wis) with no skills other than concentration. Take Power Attack (either at 1st or 3rd level) and he's set. He can go with the sword + shield or use a two hander. Either way, he can wear Full Plate with no problems and be a respectable cork at low APLs (at high APLs his spells will suplement his fighting and AC). You can play a support type cleric with average scores across the board (nothing higher than 14s, maybe 16 wisdom). At low levels you're a spellcaster/summoner that can occasionally wade into melee. I recommend Istus and take Destiny and Luck domains. TN alignment means you can summon anything. Both are viable at all levels of the game even without taking any prestige classes.
Demoyn 07-24-07, 09:45 PM	Two clerics isn't bad. I'd personally prefer cleric and fighter. My fiance and I have a dwarf fighter/human healer combination, and we love it because no matter who else sits down at the table, we'll know we can deal damage, soak damage, and stay alive. She's playing healer for the unicorn, but a cleric would be a little more powerful for the combo (just take feats like augment healing, divine ward, and divine vigor). My fighter is personally an effective corkish character that can deal damage. I started with 16 str, 12 dex, 16 con, 10 int, 12 wis, 6 cha. I took the feats heavy shield specialization, weapon focus, dodge, titan fighting, and weapon specialization (waraxe). It allows me to deal significant damage but still be very hard to hit (though this will change at later levels apparently). After learning some other rules, I'd probably opt out of shield specialization and instead just take a hide shield. I'd use the three feats that I have for AC now and transfer them into power attack, cleave, and some other decent feat for melee damage, but the character I have now has been extremely effective.
Mommy was an Orc 07-24-07, 10:58 PM	His next preference is the brick, meat-shield, tank, or (I think I am using the term right) 'cork'... as I have seen it called on these boards. I saw the post about the paladin who uses a special mount as more of a companion, and mentioned to him the basic concept of the build in that thread, Cleric (St. Cuthbert) 1 / Paladin 14. He likes the idea, and immediately wanted to play a sword-and-board fighting style, hoping to get a mount that can flank and get some nice extra attacks, as well as help him hold the line for the back-liners. I suggested he go shield and flail, to get the tripping, and just stick with a standard warhorse for now until he sees what 'access' he gets (if any). I think you're looking at my modification of solbergb's Paladin 15 build. Should look something like this: Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 8 wis 14 cha 14. Skill points to animal handling and ride. After animal handling is +11, put points into other things. Statbumps to cha or strength or even constitution, your choice. Cleric of St. Cuthbert(Destruction/Strength) 1/Paladin 14 L1: Power Attack, divine might L3: improved smiting L6: extra smiting L9: CWI L12: extra smiting L15: extra smiting
CdrcJsn 07-24-07, 10:59 PM	Unless he and his friend are determined to play together though, being a cleric melee type is a good way to make sure that there's a guaranteed healer at the table. Unless you're doing something fancy like two weapon fighting or various combat tricks, power attack is pretty much all a melee type really needs so the extra feats are not really needed. Spells can go a long way to duplicating the effects of many feats. Destruction domain also gives a smite attack which is nice. Nicer with extra smite. Forge Arms and Armor as well as Craft Wondrous Item means that the cleric will be better equipped than an equal level fighter.
D.K.R. 07-25-07, 03:23 AM	Thanks for the input... and yes, that is the build I was looking at for him. The thing for my friend is he doesn't want to do much in the way of casting. He likes the concept of using smites and divine might, and he really likes the idea of a 'mount' that fights by his side...lay on hands is just a bit of extra gravy for him easy enough to use at will; but I know he won't spend much time/effort learning his spell lists or making much use of them (beyond any specific suggestions I make to him during or between games). Not to belittle the guy, he's fairly intelligent and all; just prefers to play the dumb oafs. If I hadn't already mentioned the cleric/paladin build to him, he'd most likely just go with a barbarian/fighter brick. I don't know if CWI would be needed for him, for those reasons, especially since I will almost certainly play a caster of some sort.What about Arms/Armor instead, so he can make his own weapons and armor? And, are there any LG open (or NONC) prestige classes which would work with the build? I spent a (very) long time working on more to this post, but decided to cut it out and either make another post to this thread, or start a new thread... so for this one, any input on my friend's build?
D.K.R. 07-25-07, 04:20 AM	On the subject of my character...the more I think about it, the more I like the concept of an Arcane Heirophant, using a druid with the Spontaneous Rejuvenation ACF and sorcerer with the Metamagic Specialist ACF (obviously for Greyhawk Ruins). I've triple checked, and there is nothing requiring you to have a familiar, or even the summon familiar class ability, to gain the benefits of a familiar companion, which I think I will use as a mount. I'll need to learn exactly how the LG/RPGA has adapted the druid (I've read that they have, and so drastically that all druids were allowed total rebuilds...but haven't yet found what the changes are). But that notwithstanding, I like the idea simply for the character synergy (we'll both have animals - him a mount he doesn't ride, and me a companion that I *do* ride, lol) I'll also have only slightly retarded spellcasting for both arcane and divine; and even get a few free metamagics for sorcerer spells each day. It will be crazy MAD, but if I focus on being a support caster, I can dump strength and have a mediocre Dex and Con (I know I see tons of threads/advice on never having low con, but having played for several years now, and quite effectively, I know that those few hit points will not affect my personal play style, and have very little impact on my character's abilities). I think Wis will be primary, followed by Cha and then Int/Dex, with Con then Str as the lowest. Maybe; STR 8 Dex 14 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 15 Cha 14 I just don't know where I will go for feat selection (am not used to being limited in choices). I prefer humans for race generally, for the feat and skills...but in this build a small character would have an easier time using the companion as a mount, I think... OTOH, a race with any mental stat boosts would be nice as well. Gray elf would let me drop some strength for intelligence, and make (after race adjustments); STR 6 (8-2) Dex 14 (12+2) Con 10 (12-2) Int 14 (12+2) Wis 16 Cha 14 I would absolutely have to stick to spellcasting and use my companion for attacks; but that is my general shtick anyway. That just leaves the question; is it better to dump my dump stat to a -2 instead of -1 AND lose a feat and 1 skill point/level, all just to bump my primary casting stat by 1 point? Granted the gray elf has other benefits too... but nothing I see as important to the build. Likewise, a halfling character could dump strength and use the points from dex to make the same stat spread above; and again they get a few bonuses beyond the drop in my dump stat...but nothing critical to the build. A halfling would, however, be more suited to certain roleplaying situations I see myself entering, as well as being able to ride a wider variety of animal companions. Plus the +1 to thrown weapons could help offset the -2 from strength, giving me a bit of use outside of casting or my companion. The build would mix the two classes, no matter the race; the main impact racial choice has is a) if not human, I lose a feat and skills, and b) if not halfling, I need a large companion to be able to ride it. 1] Druid 1 - Skill Focus (Handle Animal) 2] D 2 3] Sorcerer 1 - Craft Wondrous Item 4] S 2 5] S 3 6] D 3 - Practiced Spellcaster (Druid) 7] S 4 8] Beastmaster 1 9] Arcane Heirophant 1 - Practiced Spellcaster (Sorcerer) 10] AH 2 11] AH 3 12] AH 4 - Craft Arms & Armor 13] AH 5 14] AH 6 15] AH 7 - ??? That yields Druid casting as 10th (caster level 13th), Wild shape as Druid 10, Sorcerer casting as 11th (caster level 14th), Familiar Companion as Druid 13/Sorcerer 11. I am not so sure about the level of Beastmaster. It seems fairly common in builds I've noted; but while the bump from 9-11 druid to 12-14 druid is nice {2HD, +2 NA, +1 STR/DEX, 1 trick}, is it worth the loss of 2 caster levels (druid and sorcerer) and Wild Shape (Tiny)? The spellcasting is the big one, it would mean 6th level spells on both sides if I dump beastmaster. If I can get access to the feat Natural Bond, I'll definitely dump the level of Beastmaster. I know many try to use both, but I agree with the more strict DMs who interpret the feat's wording "This bonus can never make your effective druid level exceed your character level." to mean exactly what it says. Though I suppose I would only lose one bonus druid level by that interpretation, and have effective druid level of 15 at 15th, instead of 12 at 15th. Gah, it is a tough call either way...with or without the Natural Bond, the loss of 6th level spells could be huge, but so can 2 (or 4) hit dice, bonus nat armor, bonuses to STR and DEX, etc. Wow... I just was reviewing the thread before I posted and noticed one huge problem, lol. I was planning on the Metamagic Specialist ACF and didn't take ANY metamagic feats to use with it, lol!!! I could lose one or both practiced spellcaster feats, and probably CA&A as well. That gives me 2 or 3 feats to grab metamagic in. Any suggestions there?
UMiskatonic 07-25-07, 08:42 AM	As for the AH-theurge type build, there are a few points to make. It's not mentioned much on this board anymore because we all did the math when the class came out. 1) You won't have caster levels to spare. You won't have caster levels to spare. You won't have caster levels to spare. Don't take beastmaster, unless you want to be the support staff for a tiger. And FYI, you won't always be allowed to bring your animal companion (or his mount). It's common to have to leave them behind for ship voyages and when teleported somewhere. Keep in mind, that you can always use your spells on that familiar companion. Just cast mage armor on it, barkskin, bull strength, nature's favor, magic fang, greater magic fang, enlarge person, etc. If you're still worried, buy it barding. 2) You MUST know both your caster lists, in and out. The one strength of a theurge-type build is that, in theory, you always have the right spell for the job. But, if you load up on 6 cure lights and 5 magic missiles, you've blown it. 3) You'll have a quick surge in spells/day at 2nd level, when you have two spellcasting classes. After that, you'll be considerably behind a straight caster, both in quantity and quality. Since you are splitting your spellcasting stat, your saves are lower still. Therefore, spells that offer saving throws are a BAD idea. 4) In LG, wild shape is pretty much dead. You're limited to the monster manual, and all your gear absorbs into you. Goodbye armor class. Also, a lot of the druid spells from SpC are limited. You can't cast them until you have access. Do check the LGCS first, and you'll have more time to play, and less time to argue about rules and reset spellists. 5) Craft feats work well, cuz you have such a versatile range. I met a theurge who made a wand of create water (hey Fruric!) to act as a 'fire extinguisher'.
D.K.R. 07-25-07, 10:43 AM	Okay, so a tentative new build; assuming Human for now. I still may go with a halfling...but for now it is Human. STR 8 DEX 12 CON 12 INT 12 WIS 15 CHA 15 1] Druid 1 /ACF: Spontaneous Rejuvenation/ (Scribe Scroll, Metamagic) 2] Drd 2 3] Drd 3 (Craft Wondrous Item) 4] Sorcerer 1 /ACF: Metamagic Specialist/ {+1 WIS} 5] Sor 2 6] Sor 3 (Metamagic) 7] Sor 4 8] Arcane Heirophant 1 {+1 CHA} 9] AH 2 (Craft Wand) 10] AH 3 11] AH 4 12] AH 5 (Craft Arms & Armor) {+1 CHA or WIS} 13] AH 6 14] AH 7 15] AH 8 (Metamagic) Now I will have 3 metamagic feats to use with metamagic specialist, or to prepare in advance with druid spells (or cast as full-round once I run out of daily use of MMS). I will be 11th caster in Druid, 12th in Sorcerer; both granting 6th level spells. I will wild-shape as amn 11th druid as well. My familiar companion will be treated as both an 11th druid's companion and 12th sorcerer's familiar. I can make scrolls, wands, weapons & armor, and just about everything else (CWI). I will be adaptable, good for buffing my friends and companion, with some ability to both heal and deal damage. in general a bit weaker than the APL; but playable as long as I know what I am doing. I read the errata on wildshape, and see nothing wrong or weak about it. But then, I always used wildshape as utility (to gain new forms of movement, to spy in areas hard to reach otherwise, to survive in hostile conditions, and also as a form of healing (char level in hit points each use)). I was never much on the whole combat form of wildshape before - but I usually play characters who avoid combat.
ToddMorgan 07-25-07, 11:30 AM	A quick question: Why are you using sorcerer over wizard? Flavor? If I missed it in an earlier post please tell me. Otherwise your build looks pretty good. Edit: I wouldn't take CW or CAA. Practiced Spellcaster is really good for these builds, it really ups the power of your spells.
bitznarf 07-25-07, 11:40 AM	I think CWI has an awesome place in this build. Nearly unmatched ability to craft anything, even if you need to use scrolls to do it.
UMiskatonic 07-25-07, 11:51 AM	I will be 11th caster in Druid, 12th in Sorcerer; both granting 6th level spells. I will wild-shape as amn 11th druid as well. I don't think that's the right way to think about it. While this is true, it's also 2010 before you get there. If you look at the build above, the first three levels are on track. But, by 6th level, you'll have a few 2nd level druid spells, and only 1st level sorceror spells, and you can't wildshape at all. This is when melee fighters get their 2nd attack, archers get their third attack, and the straight spellcasters have fireballs. You're behind the curve. You will catch up, to an extent, as you mentioned, by the time you retire. However, switching to druid/wizard gives you a really good bonus feat (Scribe Scroll), and reduces the lame middle period considerably. Also, more versatility with a spellbook. As for your friend, I'd go with brute fighter, if that's what he wants to play. If he's really not going to use the spells, then there's no reason to be a cleric. Better spellcasting is the only thing that clerics get.
D.K.R. 07-25-07, 12:17 PM	As for sorcerer vs. wizard; one big reason for sorc was the metamagic specialist alternate class feature. The other was I just prefer spontaneous casting in general; I'm familiar with both prepared and spontaneous casters, know both their strengths and weaknesses. I figured a build already (somewhat) focused on more spells/day would benefit more from, well... more. Also, I would prefer charisma to be decent so I can have some skills as a face. Finally, flavor. I don't see a druid studiously poring over tomes of arcane lore. The themes just don't seem to mesh. All that aside, I am not locked into the build, and would be willing to switch. I would prefer to keep crafting as a whole if possible, but am used to sacrificing a few 'wants' to have a better build overall, so no big deal if all I keep is CWI. On to my friend's build. I mentioned the cleric/pally mount build as one I was thinking of for me, and he has been drooling over it since. No he won't use casting much, but he *will* be using smites and divine might. And with only 1 level of cleric, he isn't a primary caster anyway. Its only for the destruction domain and extra smite(s) from it... as well as the earlier entry into divine might. The pally levels will give him a mount he doesn't ride (much), and between that and his base abilities as a paladin, he will hold up in combat (I think)...
bitznarf 07-25-07, 12:21 PM	Is there an alternate class feature that replaces the paladin mount that he may want? I'm not really familiar with the options for paladins myself.
myshkingfh 07-25-07, 12:31 PM	Also, I would prefer charisma to be decent so I can have some skills as a face. A high intelligence will allow you to be a better face than will a high charisma. With a 15 charisma, you can get +2 to diplomacy et al, but you won't have the skill points to improve. With a high intelligence, you can use your increased skill points to keep your diplomacy high, even if you have to cross class to do it. +2 to diplomacy is quickly not much help. Plus, a high intelligence gets you a lot of bonus languages so you can actually talk to the people you want to diplomicize! Have you considered playing a beguiler/druid? Does that work for your PrC? Beguilers use INT as their important score, cast spontaneous spells and get a lot of skill points/access to a lot of skills. Of course their spell list is quite limited as compared to sorcerors, but it might solve all your problems if you can live with the spells.
D.K.R. 07-25-07, 06:45 PM	Is there an alternate class feature that replaces the paladin mount that he may want? I'm not really familiar with the options for paladins myself. There're a few, and some are open access in the new greyhawk ruins. However, it is not that he doesn't WANT the mount (he does), it is more he won't RIDE the mount... instead fight beside it (or use it for flanking, etc.) Now it is a moot point though, he is making a liar of me and changed his mind on the character concept. I'll repost it below.
D.K.R. 07-25-07, 06:46 PM	A high intelligence will allow you to be a better face than will a high charisma. With a 15 charisma, you can get +2 to diplomacy et al, but you won't have the skill points to improve. With a high intelligence, you can use your increased skill points to keep your diplomacy high, even if you have to cross class to do it. +2 to diplomacy is quickly not much help. Plus, a high intelligence gets you a lot of bonus languages so you can actually talk to the people you want to diplomicize! Have you considered playing a beguiler/druid? Does that work for your PrC? Beguilers use INT as their important score, cast spontaneous spells and get a lot of skill points/access to a lot of skills. Of course their spell list is quite limited as compared to sorcerors, but it might solve all your problems if you can live with the spells. Too true. That was one of a few considerations, though. Beguiler may indeed work; I have never played one, so will have to look it over carefully before trying it out in a build like this. Thanks for the suggestion!!!
D.K.R. 07-25-07, 06:49 PM	Okay, he is making a liar out of me, and deciding to be a spiked chain fighter. Here's the build I drew up for him tentatively... I think it is all LG legal. Half-Orc STR 18 [16+2] DEX 14 CON 14 INT 6 [8-2] WIS 14 CHA 6 [8-2] 1 Cleric {of St. Cuthbert} 1 <> Scribe Scroll, {Domains: Destruction (for granted power: smite), Strength (for spells: enlarge self, bull’s strength)} <possible Alternate Class Feature: Domain Spontaneity (Strength)> 2 Fighter 1 <> Combat Reflexes 3 Barbarian 1 <> EWP (Spiked Chain) 4 Ftr 2 <> Power Attack, {+1 STR} 5 Clr 2 6 Ftr 3 <> Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) 7 Clr 3 8 Outcast Champion 1 <> {+1 STR} 9 Exotic Weapon Master 1 <> Cleave, {Exotic Weapon Stunt: Flurry of Strikes} 10 OC 2 11 EWM 2 <> {Exotic Weapon Trick: Trip Attack} 12 OC 3 <> Great Cleave, {+1 STR} 13 EWM 3 <> {Exotic Weapon Trick: Exotic Reach} 14 OC 4 15 OC 5 <> Supreme Cleave Level HP BAB F R W 1 10 0 4 2 4 2 18 1 6 2 4 3 27 2 8 2 4 4 35 3 9 2 4 5 42 4 10 2 5 6 50 5 10 3 6 7 57 6 10 4 6 8 64 7 12 4 6 9 71 8 14 4 6 10 78 9 15 4 6 11 85 10 16 4 6 12 92 11 16 5 7 13 99 12 16 6 8 14 106 13 17 6 8 15 113 14 18 6 8 The purpose of this build is a mix of control and damage. With an enlarged (3/day if all spells spent on enlarge) half-orc wielding a spiked chain, and having combat reflexes, you can strike at anything with a reach of 20’ and take up to 3 AoOs in that area. With a base 18 STR, 20 while enlarged, you have decent trip and disarm ability as well. Adding in barbarian rage and 2nd level cleric spells (for bull’s strength) grant an additional 6 points of str which is now (at 4th) a base of 21 – that is 27 (+8) while raging and enlarged and using bull’s strength. This allows for good power attacks, and since spiked chain is a two-handed weapon, doubling the BAB sacrificed. Once he starts getting cleaves in that 20’ radius… it could get silly. Outcast Champion has several nice features, and Exotic Weapon Master helps add use to the chain. All in all, a few self-buffs and minimal self-healing, a high strength score and reach allow for a decent front-liner, even if he is nothing to make one wet oneself with glee from 1st through 15th.
clannagh 07-25-07, 07:52 PM	Okay, he is making a liar out of me, and deciding to be a spiked chain fighter. Here's the build I drew up for him tentatively... I think it is all LG legal. Half-Orc STR 18 [16+2] DEX 14 CON 14 INT 6 [8-2] WIS 14 CHA 6 [8-2] 1 Cleric {of St. Cuthbert} 1 <> Scribe Scroll, {Domains: Destruction (for granted power: smite), Strength (for spells: enlarge self, bull’s strength)} <possible Alternate Class Feature: Domain Spontaneity (Strength)> 2 Fighter 1 <> Combat Reflexes 3 Barbarian 1 <> EWP (Spiked Chain) 4 Ftr 2 <> Power Attack, {+1 STR} 5 Clr 2 6 Ftr 3 <> Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) 7 Clr 3 8 Outcast Champion 1 <> {+1 STR} 9 Exotic Weapon Master 1 <> Cleave, {Exotic Weapon Stunt: Flurry of Strikes} 10 OC 2 11 EWM 2 <> {Exotic Weapon Trick: Trip Attack} 12 OC 3 <> Great Cleave, {+1 STR} 13 EWM 3 <> {Exotic Weapon Trick: Exotic Reach} 14 OC 4 15 OC 5 <> Supreme Cleave Level HP BAB F R W 1 10 0 4 2 4 2 18 1 6 2 4 3 27 2 8 2 4 4 35 3 9 2 4 5 42 4 10 2 5 6 50 5 10 3 6 7 57 6 10 4 6 8 64 7 12 4 6 9 71 8 14 4 6 10 78 9 15 4 6 11 85 10 16 4 6 12 92 11 16 5 7 13 99 12 16 6 8 14 106 13 17 6 8 15 113 14 18 6 8 The purpose of this build is a mix of control and damage. With an enlarged (3/day if all spells spent on enlarge) half-orc wielding a spiked chain, and having combat reflexes, you can strike at anything with a reach of 20’ and take up to 3 AoOs in that area. With a base 18 STR, 20 while enlarged, you have decent trip and disarm ability as well. Adding in barbarian rage and 2nd level cleric spells (for bull’s strength) grant an additional 6 points of str which is now (at 4th) a base of 21 – that is 27 (+8) while raging and enlarged and using bull’s strength. This allows for good power attacks, and since spiked chain is a two-handed weapon, doubling the BAB sacrificed. Once he starts getting cleaves in that 20’ radius… it could get silly. Outcast Champion has several nice features, and Exotic Weapon Master helps add use to the chain. All in all, a few self-buffs and minimal self-healing, a high strength score and reach allow for a decent front-liner, even if he is nothing to make one wet oneself with glee from 1st through 15th. Ok .. main comment INT 6 means no expertise and hence no improved trip or improved disarm. This removes a lot of the point of using a chain, he may be better saving the EWP chain feat and using some other reach weapon. If he does go with the chain he needs to start early building towards exotic weapon master as he needs a lot of skill points in craft with just 6 INT. As far as the AH goes that was mentioned earlier they get pretty hard core aftr level 10 but are painful to get to that level. Most of the current ones are rebuilt druids who didnt have to slog it through as a mid level AH. An AH woould make an excellent secondary character you build slowly as teh odd game coems up that suits it but isnt the best idea for a primary.
D.K.R. 07-25-07, 11:41 PM	Okay, by 7th level, this build can have the 8 points in Intimidate for Outcast Champion (though no other skill ranks). Two levels in OC are enough for 3 points in Craft (Weaponsmithing) with 1 left for another skill. That takes care of skill requirements for both PRCs, but means I need to move EWM from 9th to 10th. The lack of Imp Trip and Disarm hurts a bit, but with his limited casting (basically enlarge and bull's strength, unless a heal is needed), he can buff himself to make up for that lack (and also improve melee combat). He also has smiting 1/day, which we were going to take Improved Smite but I thought the cleave chain a better choice. And the rage and 40' movement from his barbarian level; again extra rage was a thought but cleave won out. Enlarged with a reach weapon he threatens a 20' radius; with a 14 or maybe 16 base dex and even a +2 item, he can get several extra attacks a round from combat reflexes, which is why that won out over imp trip/disarm. I know it is no build to make anyone speechless at any one thing he can do, but it is fairly versatile and would work with several party configurations (I think)...
Demoyn 07-26-07, 01:04 AM	Have you ever given thought to just paying 750gp for a wand of enlarge person and handing it to an arcane caster, cleric of strength, or person with use magic device? That would allow you to build the character with more emphasis on the chain itself, up to and including reducing your wis in order to try and reach 13 int. I've recently made a chain fighter for a friend, and I can assure you that playing a human and having the intelligence will more than make up for your loss of strength. You lose 2 to your strength modifier (14 str is about as good as you'll be able to afford), but gain 4 to your trip attempts. As long as you trip them, power attack can more than make up for the damage you lose by combining with the -4 AC for prone. Think of it like this: If you're at 14 str then you lose 3 damage per hit. If you swing 10 times you lose 30 damage. If you go with the lower strength then you'll deal (provided rage and enlarge) 38 damage total for the two hits you would have missed (the one that the -2 trip chance would forfeit, and the one for the AoE when he stands up). Sure, 8 damage per fight isn't huge, but when you factor in the extra benefits of being able to raise your AC by 5 if needed and having the extra skill points, it's practically a no brainer (unless you just REALLY want to be able to break that door down with a strength check, drag the entire party home in a sack, or break a grapple 1 out of 10 attempts).
D.K.R. 07-26-07, 01:55 AM	Well, he would lose enlarge 3/day plus unlimited scrolls (as unlimited as crafting can provide), as well as the smite 1/day, feat of strength 1/day, some healing (just in case); all at 1st level. Over the build he would get a few more uses of enlarge and healing, adding in bull's strength a few times, and improving the smite a bit. It isn't a TON, but it is significant at the lowest levels (where my build will be probably lacking). It is a good thought, though, and I will work up an alternate human barbarian/fighter for him to compare and choose from. Any specific advice on a human straight chain fighter?
Demoyn 07-26-07, 09:30 AM	There's no real advice needed on a human chain fighter except for what feats to take and in what order. Get improved trip and power attack as soon as possible, and have combat reflexes high on your priority list. The ability to heal himself is a slight loss, but a wand or a few potions will fix that as long as you make sure you stay in a party with casters who are willing to be team players.
TWG_Prometheus 07-26-07, 10:56 AM	I saw some responses to your questions about Druids in Living Greyhawk, but I didn't see anyone post the shortest and simplest version. The 'big change' that the Living Greyhawk campaign made to Druids was to adopt the Polymorph errata that Wizards of the Coast published for the game generally. Follow their recommendations concerning Polymorph, Alter Self, Wildshape, and ect and you have the nature of the beast. There was a period of time between the announcement of the Polymorph errata by WotC and the adoption of those recommendations in Living Greyhawk. To my understanding, the delay was mostly so that the campaign wouldn't have to make those changes in between LGCS publications. ------------------- * Any half-orc that holds a spiked chain in its hands (and is proficient) will probably do OK. * Arcane Heirophants are fine so long as you understand the Mystic Theurge dilemm and know what you're getting into. Be aware that you may see table variation regarding whether you can Wild Shape at all unless you obtain Druid 5 to get the class feature. Consider whether a Wizard 15 with Arcane Disciple might not be able to meet your goals before proceeding.
Demoyn 07-26-07, 12:22 PM	* Arcane Heirophants are fine so long as you understand the Mystic Theurge dilemm and know what you're getting into. Be aware that you may see table variation regarding whether you can Wild Shape at all unless you obtain Druid 5 to get the class feature. Consider whether a Wizard 15 with Arcane Disciple might not be able to meet your goals before proceeding. What exactly is the "Mystic Theurge delimma?"
CdrcJsn 07-26-07, 04:17 PM	What exactly is the "Mystic Theurge delimma?" That you basically suck between levels 4 to 8, average from 8-12 and get good past that, but still of comparable power level to a single classed caster?