3 Swash/2fgt [Archive] - Wizards Community

3 Swash/2fgt [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tellack
03-11-08, 07:44 PM Another thread from me...
My friend currently has a Swashbuckler3/ Fighter 2
He is about to level soon.
What do you suggest as a next class level?
He is thinking Occult Slayer.

Ability Scores:
STR 14
DEX 19
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 10

Feats::
Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Improved Init.
(+3 Retraining Slots? ; formally/now TWD, TWF, Jack of all trades)

He's thinking of dropping TWF and getting a shield to use in combat. I'm not sure how much to agree with this, though....

What do you suggest for feats?
Next class level?

I'm not sure where to start.
Maesto
03-11-08, 09:12 PM I'm not really the best person to give advice on melee builds, but this build seems to lack direction at the moment. The biggest problem with a swashbuckler/fighter using a rapier is the lack of damage. Of course, you can do whatever you like, but from an optimisation perspective, you've got a few choices.

1. Take another two fighter levels, aiming to pick up weapon specialisation (rapier), melee weapon mastery (piercing) at level 9, and retrain into oversized two weapon fighting (Complete Adventurer). You probably also want to look at Quickdraw (unless you've got a nifty item that gives it to you for free), improved TWF (you need all the attacks you can get), Power Attack (to up damage, although I can't remember if an off-hand rapier will benefit; I think it does from memory), and Combat Expertise (to shoot AC through the roof if necessary - you're always going to have issues dealing damage; and if you can't deal damage, you might as well be a cork).

Basic aim is to consolidate the two weapon fighting style with a pair of rapiers, then look into Occult Slayer.

2. Rebuild (almost) completely =) Pick a finessable slashing weapon (ok, this list is kinda small. Elven courtblade or Kukri are the best examples offhand), and head for Dervish. Take another two fighter levels, as above, retraining into the prerequisites for Dervish (and taking them at L6 and Fighter4). If you choose kukris, the aim is to take a "death of a thousand cuts" approach by two weapon fighting with a pair of these and trying to get off as many attacks a round as possible. If instead you go for the courtblade (two handed weapon, Races of the Wild, needs Exotic Weapon Proficiency), you'll want to pick up power attack to try and pull off some more damage using the two handed PA potential.

Whatever route you take, you'll be Swash3/Fighter4/DervishX with melee weapon mastery and a nasty full attack.

3. The roguey type. Start taking rogue levels (three to be precise), and pick up the feat "Daring Outlaw", from Complete Scoundrel. Then continue with swashbuckler levels. This will give you the sneak attack of a rogue that's two levels lower than you, but almost full BAB. The idea here is to get damage from sneak attack. You can stick with the rapiers, retrain into oversized two weapon fighting, and again try to pull off as many attacks a round as you can. Again, quickdraw, improved TWF, and most of the comments from #1 above apply, although you're unlikely to want to power attack.

Ok, that's probably gotten less and less coherent as I rambled on; my head is now spinning (sick :( ) I'm sure others will be able to flesh out/critique what I've suggested, if any of that sounds appealing ;)

Cheers,

Jolyon
Tellack
03-11-08, 10:50 PM "Whatever route you take, you'll be Swash3/Fighter4/DervishX with melee weapon mastery and a nasty full attack."

Seems the best, hopefully we can do it before LG ends :)
Seems more survivability/"easier" than the others.

I mentioned Dervish, it's really nice with support :)

Ok, taking this route, how about a nice feat list from levels 1 on, assuming retraining and such?
Since LG is ending soon, he'd like to get the "best benefits" earliest.
jstorrie
03-11-08, 10:55 PM Your pal could use some serious retraining. He has the potential stats and levels for a very powerful Daring Outlaw build–what feats did he take in what order? Prereqs could make the retraining tricky, depending on what he took when.

Ideally he'd want to retrain out all of his feats, over the next few levels. No more Swashbuckler levels; two more Fighter levels, the last of which should be at level 9 for Weapon Spec + Weapon Mastery; the rest of the levels in Rogue. I recommend retraining for EWP: Spiked Chain, Power Attack, the Adaptable Flanker line of feats, and taking Daring Outlaw at 12. Daring Outlaw will boost his AC as well as his damage, so forget taking a shield (unless he wants Improved Buckler Defense–which costs a feat slot.)
Tellack
03-11-08, 11:01 PM Your pal could use some serious retraining. He has the potential stats and levels for a very powerful Daring Outlaw build–what feats did he take in what order? Prereqs could make the retraining tricky, depending on what he took when.

Ideally he'd want to retrain out all of his feats, over the next few levels. No more Swashbuckler levels; two more Fighter levels, the last of which should be at level 9 for Weapon Spec + Weapon Mastery; the rest of the levels in Rogue. I recommend retraining for EWP: Spiked Chain, Power Attack, the Adaptable Flanker line of feats, and taking Daring Outlaw at 12. Daring Outlaw will boost his AC as well as his damage, so forget taking a shield (unless he wants Improved Buckler Defense–which costs a feat slot.)

Feats::
Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Improved Init.
TWF
TWD
Jack of all Trades
jstorrie
03-12-08, 01:23 AM Right, but at which levels did he take what? It's important for retraining.
Iswald
03-12-08, 10:42 AM Another thread from me...
My friend currently has a Swashbuckler3/ Fighter 2
He is about to level soon.
What do you suggest as a next class level?
He is thinking Occult Slayer.

Ability Scores:
STR 14
DEX 19
CON 12
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 10

Feats::
Weapon Focus (Rapier)
Improved Init.
(+3 Retraining Slots? ; formally/now TWD, TWF, Jack of all trades)

He's thinking of dropping TWF and getting a shield to use in combat. I'm not sure how much to agree with this, though....

You could use a heavy shield as your primary weapon, making bash attacks with it, and use a light mace (finesse), or short sword with a spiked shield, in your off hand. To make it worthwhile, you'd want to take improved shield bash. Work towards melee weapon mastery. Two more levels of fighter to gain weapon specialization (heavy shield), retrain weapon focus to your shield. Look for the bashing enhancement for the shield. Honestly, though, the PC's stats wouldn't work well for this kind of build and I don't recommend this path.
Tellack
03-12-08, 01:09 PM Yah, the shield idea is out. Regardless of what happens after, he'll take the next two levels in fighter. I'll talk to him later when he is available to get the order of taken feats.
delewobmesid
03-12-08, 03:09 PM dervish requirements
combat expertise
weapon focus with a slashing weapon (a rapier is a piercing weapon)
dodge
mobility
BAB +5
2 ranks tumble
3 ranks perform dance (I think that's right)

I'm reading human from the feat count; if the character already has tumble ranks it's possible to get into dervish at 8. retrain WF rapier to weapon focus something slashing (glavie is a strong option) at 6th (fighter 3) take combat expertise as your general feat; at 7th retrain Jack of all trades to dodge taking mobility as your fighter bonus feat.

Dervish at 8th retraining TWD to power attack; 9th weapon specialization with slashing of choice retraining twf for combat reflexes for aoo with glaive; 12th melee weapon master.

but i'm not a melee player. i mainly play casters. and as always disreguard unwanted advice.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tellack 03-11-08, 07:44 PM	Another thread from me... My friend currently has a Swashbuckler3/ Fighter 2 He is about to level soon. What do you suggest as a next class level? He is thinking Occult Slayer. Ability Scores: STR 14 DEX 19 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 10 Feats:: Weapon Focus (Rapier) Improved Init. (+3 Retraining Slots? ; formally/now TWD, TWF, Jack of all trades) He's thinking of dropping TWF and getting a shield to use in combat. I'm not sure how much to agree with this, though.... What do you suggest for feats? Next class level? I'm not sure where to start.
Maesto 03-11-08, 09:12 PM	I'm not really the best person to give advice on melee builds, but this build seems to lack direction at the moment. The biggest problem with a swashbuckler/fighter using a rapier is the lack of damage. Of course, you can do whatever you like, but from an optimisation perspective, you've got a few choices. 1. Take another two fighter levels, aiming to pick up weapon specialisation (rapier), melee weapon mastery (piercing) at level 9, and retrain into oversized two weapon fighting (Complete Adventurer). You probably also want to look at Quickdraw (unless you've got a nifty item that gives it to you for free), improved TWF (you need all the attacks you can get), Power Attack (to up damage, although I can't remember if an off-hand rapier will benefit; I think it does from memory), and Combat Expertise (to shoot AC through the roof if necessary - you're always going to have issues dealing damage; and if you can't deal damage, you might as well be a cork). Basic aim is to consolidate the two weapon fighting style with a pair of rapiers, then look into Occult Slayer. 2. Rebuild (almost) completely =) Pick a finessable slashing weapon (ok, this list is kinda small. Elven courtblade or Kukri are the best examples offhand), and head for Dervish. Take another two fighter levels, as above, retraining into the prerequisites for Dervish (and taking them at L6 and Fighter4). If you choose kukris, the aim is to take a "death of a thousand cuts" approach by two weapon fighting with a pair of these and trying to get off as many attacks a round as possible. If instead you go for the courtblade (two handed weapon, Races of the Wild, needs Exotic Weapon Proficiency), you'll want to pick up power attack to try and pull off some more damage using the two handed PA potential. Whatever route you take, you'll be Swash3/Fighter4/DervishX with melee weapon mastery and a nasty full attack. 3. The roguey type. Start taking rogue levels (three to be precise), and pick up the feat "Daring Outlaw", from Complete Scoundrel. Then continue with swashbuckler levels. This will give you the sneak attack of a rogue that's two levels lower than you, but almost full BAB. The idea here is to get damage from sneak attack. You can stick with the rapiers, retrain into oversized two weapon fighting, and again try to pull off as many attacks a round as you can. Again, quickdraw, improved TWF, and most of the comments from #1 above apply, although you're unlikely to want to power attack. Ok, that's probably gotten less and less coherent as I rambled on; my head is now spinning (sick :( ) I'm sure others will be able to flesh out/critique what I've suggested, if any of that sounds appealing ;) Cheers, Jolyon
Tellack 03-11-08, 10:50 PM	"Whatever route you take, you'll be Swash3/Fighter4/DervishX with melee weapon mastery and a nasty full attack." Seems the best, hopefully we can do it before LG ends :) Seems more survivability/"easier" than the others. I mentioned Dervish, it's really nice with support :) Ok, taking this route, how about a nice feat list from levels 1 on, assuming retraining and such? Since LG is ending soon, he'd like to get the "best benefits" earliest.
jstorrie 03-11-08, 10:55 PM	Your pal could use some serious retraining. He has the potential stats and levels for a very powerful Daring Outlaw build–what feats did he take in what order? Prereqs could make the retraining tricky, depending on what he took when. Ideally he'd want to retrain out all of his feats, over the next few levels. No more Swashbuckler levels; two more Fighter levels, the last of which should be at level 9 for Weapon Spec + Weapon Mastery; the rest of the levels in Rogue. I recommend retraining for EWP: Spiked Chain, Power Attack, the Adaptable Flanker line of feats, and taking Daring Outlaw at 12. Daring Outlaw will boost his AC as well as his damage, so forget taking a shield (unless he wants Improved Buckler Defense–which costs a feat slot.)
Tellack 03-11-08, 11:01 PM	Your pal could use some serious retraining. He has the potential stats and levels for a very powerful Daring Outlaw build–what feats did he take in what order? Prereqs could make the retraining tricky, depending on what he took when. Ideally he'd want to retrain out all of his feats, over the next few levels. No more Swashbuckler levels; two more Fighter levels, the last of which should be at level 9 for Weapon Spec + Weapon Mastery; the rest of the levels in Rogue. I recommend retraining for EWP: Spiked Chain, Power Attack, the Adaptable Flanker line of feats, and taking Daring Outlaw at 12. Daring Outlaw will boost his AC as well as his damage, so forget taking a shield (unless he wants Improved Buckler Defense–which costs a feat slot.) Feats:: Weapon Focus (Rapier) Improved Init. TWF TWD Jack of all Trades
jstorrie 03-12-08, 01:23 AM	Right, but at which levels did he take what? It's important for retraining.
Iswald 03-12-08, 10:42 AM	Another thread from me... My friend currently has a Swashbuckler3/ Fighter 2 He is about to level soon. What do you suggest as a next class level? He is thinking Occult Slayer. Ability Scores: STR 14 DEX 19 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 10 CHA 10 Feats:: Weapon Focus (Rapier) Improved Init. (+3 Retraining Slots? ; formally/now TWD, TWF, Jack of all trades) He's thinking of dropping TWF and getting a shield to use in combat. I'm not sure how much to agree with this, though.... You could use a heavy shield as your primary weapon, making bash attacks with it, and use a light mace (finesse), or short sword with a spiked shield, in your off hand. To make it worthwhile, you'd want to take improved shield bash. Work towards melee weapon mastery. Two more levels of fighter to gain weapon specialization (heavy shield), retrain weapon focus to your shield. Look for the bashing enhancement for the shield. Honestly, though, the PC's stats wouldn't work well for this kind of build and I don't recommend this path.
Tellack 03-12-08, 01:09 PM	Yah, the shield idea is out. Regardless of what happens after, he'll take the next two levels in fighter. I'll talk to him later when he is available to get the order of taken feats.
delewobmesid 03-12-08, 03:09 PM	dervish requirements combat expertise weapon focus with a slashing weapon (a rapier is a piercing weapon) dodge mobility BAB +5 2 ranks tumble 3 ranks perform dance (I think that's right) I'm reading human from the feat count; if the character already has tumble ranks it's possible to get into dervish at 8. retrain WF rapier to weapon focus something slashing (glavie is a strong option) at 6th (fighter 3) take combat expertise as your general feat; at 7th retrain Jack of all trades to dodge taking mobility as your fighter bonus feat. Dervish at 8th retraining TWD to power attack; 9th weapon specialization with slashing of choice retraining twf for combat reflexes for aoo with glaive; 12th melee weapon master. but i'm not a melee player. i mainly play casters. and as always disreguard unwanted advice.