Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dkay807 03-26-07, 07:38 PM	I want to make a versatile melee PC with no prestige classes. I could use some feedback, some ideas, and some comments. One disclaimer is that I typically min/max to a certain limit, but I often choose style over some "better build" ideas. Essentially, if it doesn't make sense for the character, I won't do it. I've come up with the following: Halfling Rogue 3/Fighter 6/Swashbuckler 6 Str 13 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 8 1 - Swashbuckler 1; Weapon Finesse, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (courtblade) 2 - Rogue 1 3 - Fighter 1; Power Attack, Weapon Focus (courtblade) 4 - Rogue 2; Str +1 5 - Rogue 3 6 - Swashbuckler 2; Daring Outlaw 7 - Fighter 2; <feat> 8 - Fighter 3; Dex +1 9 - Fighter 4; Weapon Specialization (courtblade), Melee Weapon Mastery (piercing), XP Penalties (1 level) 10 - Swashbuckler 3 11 - Swashbuckler 4 12 - Fighter 5; Daring Warrior, Dex +1 13 - Swashbuckler 5; 14 - Fighter 6; Greater Weapon Focus (courtblade) 15 - Swashbuckler 6; Greater Weapon Specialization (courtblade) I like the concept of playing a PC that is essentially a 12th level fighter, a 9th level rogue and a 15th level swashbuckler (for most class abilities). I struggled with XP penalty issues. My first thought was playing a Human Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Swashbuckler 8, but then I couldn't get Melee Weapon Mastery, Daring Warrior, Greater Weapon Focus AND Greater Weapon Spec. I know Rogue at level 1 gives more skills, but I'm not too interested in rogue skills with this PC. I may still go Rogue 1 at 1, but that has no bearing on the rest of the build. I'll decide that later. I have some open feat slots and I'm not sure which weapon to use yet. I will NOT use a spiked chain... personal preference. I also haven't thought everything through entirely, so there may be many areas which I have not investigated. Who has some useful suggestions?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-26-07, 07:53 PM	Perfect weapon to fit in there with your 3rd level feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Courtblade). It's a 2 handed finesseable weapon, so you get good power attack as well as insightful strike, and it's got a good crit range. Overall a nice simple build.
clannagh 03-26-07, 08:01 PM	Perfect weapon to fit in there with your 3rd level feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Elven Courtblade). It's a 2 handed finesseable weapon, so you get good power attack as well as insightful strike, and it's got a good crit range. Overall a nice simple build. I agree on that As far as I am aware the Elven Courtblade is the only weapon, OTHER than the spiked chain which you specifically ruled out, which lets you finesse while double handed power attacking at the same time.
dkay807 03-26-07, 08:42 PM	I have definitely considered getting a halfling courtblade (yes, I said halfling courtblade... if I think of it as an elven courtblade, it no longer makes sense stylistically and I won't let myself use it). Having said that, I think I have one open feat slot that I'll have to fill. Any suggestions? Also, does anyone have any ideas to do this build slightly differently? Are there any improvements that anyone has thought of?
clannagh 03-26-07, 08:54 PM	I have definitely considered getting a halfling courtblade (yes, I said halfling courtblade... if I think of it as an elven courtblade, it no longer makes sense stylistically and I won't let myself use it). Having said that, I think I have one open feat slot that I'll have to fill. Any suggestions? Also, does anyone have any ideas to do this build slightly differently? Are there any improvements that anyone has thought of? Retraining might avoid the xp penalty at 9 but delay the feats a level or so. Your theme seems to be a series of feats that focus on the weapon you are using .. the courtblade has an 18-20 crit range so it would be in your theme to either take imp crit (15-20) or make the weapon keen and take power crit.
dkay807 03-26-07, 08:59 PM	Retraining might avoid the xp penalty at 9 but delay the feats a level or so. Your theme seems to be a series of feats that focus on the weapon you are using .. the courtblade has an 18-20 crit range so it would be in your theme to either take imp crit (15-20) or make the weapon keen and take power crit. There's no room in the build for Improved Crit... it would have to be taken at 9th level or later and I've already made sacrifices to get all the feats I need with BAB prereqs of +8 or higher. I guess I'll have to settle with a Keen weapon (which I've never, ever done). I think Power Critical is a useless feat, but thanks for the suggestion! What do people think about Staggering Strike or Combat Expertise? Is there any better option knowing I only have room for one feat? Could I pull off underfoot combat? Is that worth it? I don't have any books on me right now.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-26-07, 09:19 PM	Race:Halfling Alignment: STR-15 (8)-2 DEX-14 (6)+2 CON-14 (6) INT-14 (6) WIS-10 (2) CHA-8 (0) Lv1(Rogue)Power Attack Lv2(Swashbuckler)Weapon Finesse Lv3(Fighter)Weapon Focus, Exotic Weapon Proficiency Lv4(Rogue)+1 STR Lv5(Rogue) Lv6(Swashbuckler)Daring Outlaw Lv7(Fighter)Close-Quarters Fighting Lv8(Fighter)+1 DEX Lv9(Fighter)Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery (XP Penalty) Lv10(Swashbuckler) Lv11(Swashbuckler) Lv12(Swashbuckler)Daring Warrior, +1 DEX Lv13(Fighter) Lv14(Fighter)Greater Weapon Focus Lv15(Swashbuckler)Greater Weapon Specialization Gets you more skill points by putting Rogue 1st, though that 1st level you won't be as combat effective as with swashbuckler first, but it's only 3 mods to live through. There doesn't seem to be any way to fit Improved Critical in without postponing or eliminating other feat later in the build, and the other feats are more valuable IMO. On a roleplaying note, you could make him a Tallfellow Halfling, being more elf-like, it would then be more natural to be wielding an Elven weapon. [Edit]Corrected the stat bumps and threw in Close-Quarters Fighting as 7th level feat... [Edit]Swapped Swash and Fighter at level 12+13...
dkay807 03-26-07, 09:26 PM	Yes, I was already thinking of being a Tallfellow Halfling, good point. That is essentially identical to my build with the exception of Rogue at first level, 3 dex bumps rather than 2 dex and 1 strength, and Improved Toughness as the open feat. I have to ask... why the three dex bumps? My resulting dex would be odd and the 1 str would give me a nice damage boost with a belt +4 (I'd have a belt +6 eventually, but not for quite a while). I think I could come up with something a bit more creative than Improved Toughness. I currently have it with my Spellsword and even though I like the buffer (I use a vicious weapon), it bores me. I think the build is mostly ironed out... I just need that last feat slot to fill.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-26-07, 09:30 PM	Yes, I was already thinking of being a Tallfellow Halfling, good point. That is essentially identical to my build with the exception of Rogue at first level, 3 dex bumps rather than 2 dex and 1 strength, and Improved Toughness as the open feat. I have to ask... why the three dex bumps? My resulting dex would be odd and the 1 str would give me a nice damage boost with a belt +4 (I'd have a belt +6 eventually, but not for quite a while). I think I could come up with something a bit more creative than Improved Toughness. I currently have it with my Spellsword and even though I like the buffer (I use a vicious weapon), it bores me. I think the build is mostly ironed out... I just need that last feat slot to fill. Oh woops...the dex bumps were just a result of over copy+pasting...should be 2 dex and one str...str first of course...Improved toughness was more or less a filler feat...not much else useful that you qualify for at that level...
Mommy was an Orc 03-27-07, 09:25 AM	I agree on that As far as I am aware the Elven Courtblade is the only weapon, OTHER than the spiked chain which you specifically ruled out, which lets you finesse while double handed power attacking at the same time. Lynxpaw from Races of the Wild - double weapon, too, for Flurrying with Exotic Weapon Master, though that doesn't matter in this case. Why Fighter 5 at 12th level over Swashbuckler 5? You gain 2 more skill points and Fighter 5 gives you no advantage whatsoever over Swashbuckler 5. The build seems basically solid with the exception of Daring Warrior. You're spending 3 feats for a +1 to hit, +2 damage, and a slightly faster Dodge progression. I wouldn't take those over Telling Blow, Improved Crit(or Power Crit if you have Keen) and any other feat of your choice. As a note - that feat could be spent to only have 4 levels of Fighter for a Human build - that gives you an extra d6 of Sneak Damage, a couple interesting Swashbuckler abilities, and a bunch more Swashbuckler skill points...
TWG_Prometheus 03-27-07, 09:42 AM	An Elven Thinblade is generally superior to the Courtblade. You give up 1 average damage per hit by going down to a d8, but you can still double hand power attack with it, (one-handed weapons gain all the mechnical benefits of two-handed weapons when used with both hands) you can use a Shield with it if you want to, and you can fight in any other situation where your other hand is otherwise occupied.
Timlagor 03-27-07, 11:46 AM	thinblade is Piercing which is a disadvantage.
dkay807 03-27-07, 05:24 PM	Lynxpaw from Races of the Wild - double weapon, too, for Flurrying with Exotic Weapon Master, though that doesn't matter in this case. Why Fighter 5 at 12th level over Swashbuckler 5? You gain 2 more skill points and Fighter 5 gives you no advantage whatsoever over Swashbuckler 5. The build seems basically solid with the exception of Daring Warrior. You're spending 3 feats for a +1 to hit, +2 damage, and a slightly faster Dodge progression. I wouldn't take those over Telling Blow, Improved Crit(or Power Crit if you have Keen) and any other feat of your choice. As a note - that feat could be spent to only have 4 levels of Fighter for a Human build - that gives you an extra d6 of Sneak Damage, a couple interesting Swashbuckler abilities, and a bunch more Swashbuckler skill points... I disagree on the Daring Warrior, Greater Focus, Greater Spec combination... I think those are very solid. I don't have Races of the Wild. What are the specs on a Lynxpaw? Can you post them here? Thanks.
Mommy was an Orc 03-27-07, 07:38 PM	I disagree on the Daring Warrior, Greater Focus, Greater Spec combination... I think those are very solid. You're spending 3 feats for an average of +4 damage per swing when Power Attacking and slightly faster Dodge progression. MWM in comparison gives you +10 damage per swing. More importantly, Daring Warrior gives you almost nothing for levels 12 and 13. That's half the life of the feat. Improved Critical would give you an extra +10% damage or so. I don't have Races of the Wild. What are the specs on a Lynxpaw? Can you post them here? Thanks. Not spectacular unless you're going for the flurry from Exotic Weapon Master. Basically a Rapier with a slashing option and it is a double weapon for TWF. Can be used for trips.
Archwolf 03-28-07, 11:32 AM	I wonder why you put off Swash 3 for so long in your build? The +2 dmg bonus from your Int is one Swash's biggest benefits, I'd try to get there sooner. Maybe: 4- Swash 2 5 - Swash 3 6 - Rogue 2 Or instead, more simply: 7 - swash 3 8 - Fighter 2
JamesMaissen 03-28-07, 12:41 PM	I agree on that As far as I am aware the Elven Courtblade is the only weapon, OTHER than the spiked chain which you specifically ruled out, which lets you finesse while double handed power attacking at the same time. There are onehanded weapons that are finessable and can be used twohanded for 2-1 power attack. The rapier for example restricts the bonus from STR for using it twohanded, but does not restrict the power attack multiplier. That said the Elven Courtblade is a nice weapon. In the main I think you might get more by removing the fighter levels completely in this build and looking at more happy dice and the like, perhaps even looking at a PrC or two. As it is you are getting 4 feats out of your 6 fighter levels, that you essentially spend upon 4 of the following 5: Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Spec, Daring Warrior, and Melee Weapon Mastery. The combination of all 5 give you +4 to hit and +6 to damage or about +12 damage equivalent. Simply investing these levels into Rogue or Swashbuckler will give you about the same in sneak dice as well as a spare feat (or two if you don't want weapon focus) and class abilities (such as improved flanking and lucky if going with just swashbuckler). That's not even addressing the issue of skills. Just thinking that juggling fighter here might not be the best call for you to make. -James
dkay807 03-28-07, 06:39 PM	There are onehanded weapons that are finessable and can be used twohanded for 2-1 power attack. The rapier for example restricts the bonus from STR for using it twohanded, but does not restrict the power attack multiplier. That said the Elven Courtblade is a nice weapon. In the main I think you might get more by removing the fighter levels completely in this build and looking at more happy dice and the like, perhaps even looking at a PrC or two. As it is you are getting 4 feats out of your 6 fighter levels, that you essentially spend upon 4 of the following 5: Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Spec, Daring Warrior, and Melee Weapon Mastery. The combination of all 5 give you +4 to hit and +6 to damage or about +12 damage equivalent. Simply investing these levels into Rogue or Swashbuckler will give you about the same in sneak dice as well as a spare feat (or two if you don't want weapon focus) and class abilities (such as improved flanking and lucky if going with just swashbuckler). That's not even addressing the issue of skills. Just thinking that juggling fighter here might not be the best call for you to make. -James I strongly disagree on the viability of your suggestion, but I greatly appreciate the input. I think that +4 to hit and +6 to damage heavily outweighs 3d6 sneak attack dice and the skills. Having played three different characters through 15th level, I am well aware of the viability of sneak attack in LG and the difference that +2 to hit makes, let alone +4. I am a very big fan of the Weapon Focus feat tree... I realize that others are not, but hey... different flavors of ice cream :) I do think that it might not be worthwhile to go for Greater Focus and Greater Spec and that's purely a style choice. Perhaps Human Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Swash 8 is a better build! Any other discussion on the build boils up to personal preference, I think the key pieces have been ironed out. And in response to the guy who asked why I didn't go for Swash 3 sooner... It was impossible to get Melee Weapon Mastery at 9th if I took any more than two levels of Swashbuckler, considering I needed 3 Rogue by 6th and 4 fighter by 9th. Do the math! I value Melee Weapon Mastery at 9th rather than 12th much higher than Insightful Strike at 7th rather than 10th.
dkay807 03-28-07, 06:42 PM	An Elven Thinblade is generally superior to the Courtblade. You give up 1 average damage per hit by going down to a d8, but you can still double hand power attack with it, (one-handed weapons gain all the mechnical benefits of two-handed weapons when used with both hands) you can use a Shield with it if you want to, and you can fight in any other situation where your other hand is otherwise occupied. Thinblade deals 1d6 while Courtblade deals 1d8 (or 1d8 and 1d10 for medium-sized PCs). I fully expect to have an animated shield... I would never play a two-handed power attacker that did not. In anticipation of a response of "you have to get access," I always end up getting access somehow... I've played four melee PCs and all four have them.
LachlarlanIII 03-28-07, 06:46 PM	Thinblade deals 1d6 while Courtblade deals 1d8 (or 1d8 and 1d10 for medium-sized PCs). I fully expect to have an animated shield... I would never play a two-handed power attacker that did not. In anticipation of a response of "you have to get access," I always end up getting access somehow... I've played four melee PCs and all four have them. You must be lucky then. I've played a 2-hand basher through 12 levels (one twice) and only got access to an animated shield on my last AR. And that wasn't even access. It was a favor that lets me buy any items with a total value not exceeding a certain gp limit. I've never seen access with any of my secondary or tertiary characters.
jstorrie 03-28-07, 07:22 PM	As you only pick up GWF/GWS at 14/15 I think you're taking too heavy of a cost to get a bonus too late. With a high-crit weapon and Telling Blow you can keep up the same level of damage without having to spend as many feats; and Swashbuckler does have +2 skill points and a better skill list. If you remove as many Fighter levels as possible, you can easily keep running full Search, Disable Device, and Tumble with skill points to spare.