Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Painlord 12-14-07, 02:21 AM	Hey All-- I have a Cleric 6 with an archery focus that looks a wee bit like this: Wood Elf Cleric of Corellon Domains of Celerity and War Str 16 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 16 (bump at 4) Cha 8 Skills Know (Rel) 5, Concentration (5), Heal (4), Spellcraft (2) or so Cl1 Point Blank Shot Cl3 Rapid Shot Cl6 Craft Wondrous Stuff (so far 5 POPs, Gloves of Dex +2, Cloak of Elem Protection) Cl9 ??? Cl12 ??? Basically, he's been fun to play, usually buffing before combat, rapid shotting as much as possible during combat, healing and wutnot after combat. I'm committed to not missing any divine caster levels. The archery is a subfocus, but a nice role playing one for me. I'm never, ever going to be good at turning undead...I'd prefer to put my resources elsewhere. If I turn an undead here and there, it's nice, but with 8 charisma, it's never gunna happen. I had planned to play him solely as a pure cleric...until last mod when I got access to Seeker of the Misty Isle. That seems cool but it'll take me forever to get 8 ranks of survival (thanks 10 int!). HOWEVER...I also have access to Ruathar. Ruathar will maintain my caster levels and give me 4 points per level to put into Survival. I can get it in two levels. Then I can go into Seeker at lvl 9 for 4 levels. (It's unlikely that this character will get above level 12 considering we have but one year left in LG.) So...is it worth it to go Cl6/Ruathar2/SMI4? Or stay straight Cleric12? I've made some comparison notes below...what am I missing? The Cleric12 plan gets me: BAB 9/4 Base Saves 8 4 8 12 Skill pts +2 HP Full Undead Turning The Cl6/Ruathar2/SMI4 plan gets me: BAB 8/3 Base Saves 9 9 9 32 Skill pts Travel Domain ability Travel Domain spells to spell list (Fly, DD, Teleport) Surefootedness Gift of the Elves (not sure how this works in LG...I'd like the Elven Chain) Ability to say "I'm a Seeker of the Misty Isle" heh heh heh he huh heh huh huh heh "I said 'Misty Isle'" huh huh eh heh heh huh... Thoughts? And also, I plan now on taking Precise Shot at Cl9, but I gotta think that's goddarn awful...what would you guys suggest for Cl9 and Cl12? I obviously am going to avoid the Turn Undead Feats. Thanks for your time. Painlord
MwaO 12-14-07, 09:37 AM	So...is it worth it to go Cl6/Ruathar2/SMI4? Or stay straight Cleric12? I've made some comparison notes below...what am I missing? Nothing. Definitely worthwhile to go Seeker of the Misty Isle and with the 8 Charisma, something of a no-brainer. I also wouldn't necessarily say that you can't get above 12th - Dragondown Grotto and Expedition to the Demonweb Pits represents 39 TUs of APL 10...not too hard to get to 12th or 13th on that alone. If you went Cleric 6/Ruathar 3, you could qualify for Woodland Archer(from Races of the Wild) at 9th, then enter Seeker of the Misty Isle.
_metz_ 12-14-07, 09:49 AM	If you have access to ruathar and can get seeker DEFINETLY go for it, its one of the more effective and elusive builds out there. Just don't lose caster progression and you really cannot go wrong...
copperwyrmling 12-14-07, 11:54 AM	- Ruathar / Seeker is awesome provided you don't want to turn undead. Domain Spontaneity (Travel) is also awesome. - I still think you should try to get Precise Shot if you're primarily acting as an archer in combat, unless you regularly play with parties with no melee types (or unless you always hit even with the -4, or your region never features Medium opponents). - And a pet peeve: Cha 8 doesn't mean you can't turn undead. Lack of access means you can't turn undead. My Cha 8 cleric (with no Cha-boosting items) successfully turned Iuz's little sister Drelzna, and dusted the BBEG lich at the end of a Core Special. (She has items boosting her turning level. It's a subfocus for her, but very powerful when it applies.) Pretty much anyone has to invest in turning-level-boosting items in order to have any chance of turning the higher-level undead, and any one +4-turning-level item does FAR more than an extra 6 points of Charisma. I don't think this is especially relevant to your situation though ;)
MwaO 12-14-07, 12:28 PM	And a pet peeve: Cha 8 doesn't mean you can't turn undead. Lack of access means you can't turn undead. My Cha 8 cleric (with no Cha-boosting items) successfully turned Iuz's little sister Drelzna, and dusted the BBEG lich at the end of a Core Special. (She has items boosting her turning level. It's a subfocus for her, but very powerful when it applies.) Pretty much anyone has to invest in turning-level-boosting items in order to have any chance of turning the higher-level undead, and any one +4-turning-level item does FAR more than an extra 6 points of Charisma. I don't think this is especially relevant to your situation though ;) And how much APL 10- cash did you spend on those items ;)
solbergb 12-14-07, 05:58 PM	What everyone else said. You're not a turning cleric. The only class ability you lose is turning by PRC'ing. Both Ruathar and Seeker give boatloads of class abilities and have fantastic skill lists. Of course you gotta be all Elfy. But you're already an elf, so no sacrifice there.
Lomiat 12-14-07, 08:22 PM	Be an elf. Shoot things. Ruathar and Seeker for the win!
Painlord 12-14-07, 10:49 PM	MwaO: Awesome idea...I'm never sad when I post here. I never woulda thought of Woodland Archer enough to realize that mebbe going Cl6/R3 into SMI would be a good plan. But I like it so I can take Woodland Archer at 9. So, if I understand this correctly.... Woodland Archer is perfect as it sorta acts like Precise Shot as I spend most of my time rapid shooting AND have access to craft Bracers of QuickStrike AND Celerity access to Haste which means that if I miss with my first attack, I get +4 on all subsequent attacks. So, if I'm taking the penalty with my first shot into combat, future shots will be like I have Precise Shot...only I'll have more power when I'm NOT shooting into combat. And I'll get to my 6/1 BAB a bit quicker. Another reason by WA is more helpful than Precise in my situation. And then I also get the benefit of the "shootin against cover", but I think that will come up MUCH less often. Thanks for all the responses. -Painlord
MwaO 12-14-07, 10:58 PM	So, if I understand this correctly.... Woodland Archer is perfect as it sorta acts like Precise Shot as I spend most of my time rapid shooting AND have access to craft Bracers of QuickStrike AND Celerity access to Haste which means that if I miss with my first attack, I get +4 on all subsequent attacks. That's the idea. Plus you get the nice 'hit once, ignore concealment' option.
bitznarf 12-15-07, 11:06 AM	You might want Precise and Improved Precise anyway.
MwaO 12-15-07, 01:11 PM	You might want Precise and Improved Precise anyway. Hard for him to get Improved Precise - doesn't have the BAB until 15th...
Sieylianna 12-15-07, 02:44 PM	- And a pet peeve: Cha 8 doesn't mean you can't turn undead. Lack of access means you can't turn undead. And LG modules mean you largely can't turn undead. At APL 8, my radiant servant 8 healer/turner ran into 14 HD undead (before unhallow and various other effects). So even with an item which added to my level for turning checks, it would have been nearly impossible. Ed
_metz_ 12-16-07, 01:58 AM	And LG modules mean you largely can't turn undead. At APL 8, my radiant servant 8 healer/turner ran into 14 HD undead (before unhallow and various other effects). So even with an item which added to my level for turning checks, it would have been nearly impossible. Ed The radiant cheeseweasals I know trun at Cleric level +9 most of the time. But they have all the right items and stuff. As for turning Drelzna, meh we did too. But knowing that wouldn't work permanently we just perma deathed her, which I think works a little better copper... (As in campaign ocnsequences killed Drelzna permanently) Boonbane helped...
copperwyrmling 12-16-07, 09:48 PM	I don't know, I'd still try for Precise Shot I think. But if you've been coping without it until now, sure... maybe your local melees just don't get in your way very often ;) Ditto for turn undead: while it's a nice ability, if you've been working on the basis that you're "not a turning cleric" and have made it to this point, I see no particular reason to change ;) Off-topic discussion on turn undead follows... Short version: having high charisma doesn't make you a "turning cleric", having low charisma doesn't mean you can't be a "turning cleric": mostly, item purchases dictate whether you can effectively turn undead in LG at mid-high levels. Charisma is nice but non-essential. And LG modules mean you largely can't turn undead. At APL 8, my radiant servant 8 healer/turner ran into 14 HD undead (before unhallow and various other effects). So even with an item which added to my level for turning checks, it would have been nearly impossible. Phylactery of Undead Turning, DMG, 11k iirc (price might be off by a bit, it's been ages since I've looked at it), would put your L8 radiant servant to effective level 12, which means you only need to turn level+2, which is far from impossible. I can't remember precisely what level Yolande was when she bought one (immediately after finding access, which was a GOOD choice in her very undead-heavy region): I think L10ish. Around L12 she found the 3000gp lyre of the restful soul (admittedly, when she found it, she could activate it reliably with divine insight: it's a better item if you have a bard or someone with decent charisma in the party often). So yeah, she has an investment of 14k or so in turning. She turns at level+8 when someone activates the lyre (which seems to be quite common). Her turning abilities are still useful at APL 14-16. There will always be undead encounters she can't turn (anything that's low base CR and advances by HD is difficult). She needs to pick her targets. The ability is still useful - well, encounter-breaking - often enough for me to consider it a more-than-worthwhile investment. I've watched a L11 cleric with Cha 10-12 and a slightly larger investment in turning (same items as my cleric, Improved Turning and Disciple of the Sun feats) destroy a 24 HD advanced dread wraith, in one of the nastiest fights I've played in LG (she needed to roll a 7 or better on the d20 to succeed). In a later mod, at L12, she dusted everything in the first two encounters out of three, on her first attempt in both cases. It is a powerful ability and it is usable in LG - given the right access. As for turning Drelzna, meh we did too. But knowing that wouldn't work permanently we just perma deathed her, which I think works a little better copper... (As in campaign ocnsequences killed Drelzna permanently) Boonbane helped... Haven't played those mods! No spoilers! In the mod I'm thinking of, Boonbane wasn't mentioned anywhere (I've read it), and the Triad member running it told me flat-out that there wasn't any way to kill Drelzna in that particular situation (you weren't meant to ATTACK her, and she wasn't actually there physically: Yolande just did the turning as a way to banish her manifesting spirit, but it was rolled against Drelzna's full HD + turn resistance) Sure, I know other clerics could do what Yolande did: that's my point. She's not an optimized turner, she has Cha 8 and only a tiny fraction of her wealth invested into it (two mods' gold), and because she had the right access, she can also do silly tricks with turning, that a Cha 14 cleric without those items couldn't come close to emulating (Drelzna was effectively 22 HD at that point, which is well out of range of any L15 cleric running on charisma + feats only, but pretty trivial for a L15 with the lyre and phylactery). Oh and re those Radiant Servants... so they turn at level+9. I'm going to bet that +1 of that is from a feat and +8 is from items. Depending on the items, their cash investment is somewhere in the 15-20k range. It's an investment, but not a huge one once you're playing APL 10-12 regularly. (Other good items besides the lyre and phylactery are the rod of defiance and sacred armor / shield upgrades.)
_metz_ 12-16-07, 10:55 PM	Oh and re those Radiant Servants... so they turn at level+9. I'm going to bet that +1 of that is from a feat and +8 is from items. Depending on the items, their cash investment is somewhere in the 15-20k range. It's an investment, but not a huge one once you're playing APL 10-12 regularly. (Other good items besides the lyre and phylactery are the rod of defiance and sacred armor / shield upgrades.) Ephod of Authority is one of the items used I beleive (+1 turning level) Can't remember all the rest of them, but yes, you are correct, Lyre and Phylactory are the usual +8 worth. Will have to ask next time I play with em. As for the mod, it isn't really a spoiler, the talk of drelzna and boonbane was in the blurb. Its just nice to know that We've gotten rid of her. Perrenland is a fun region on the rare occasions that you win! (not just stop the advance of Iuz/Iggwilv/Drelzna/Fienden clix for another week or so)
Cyber_Arch 12-17-07, 12:55 AM	I have a 12th level elf - pure cleric (archer) build similar to yours. I would definitely have taken SMI (which I had access since level 2) but never found Ruathar access. If you can take SMI, I'd recommend it. Mine has only turned undead 3 times in his career (all successfully, but certainly not something that melee could not have handled). My last feat was divine fortune to try to use my turn attempts for something useful. And as you noticed, you have much better saves by taking a PrC than staying in the straight class.
RanielK 12-21-07, 10:29 AM	And LG modules mean you largely can't turn undead. At APL 8, my radiant servant 8 healer/turner ran into 14 HD undead (before unhallow and various other effects). So even with an item which added to my level for turning checks, it would have been nearly impossible. Ed Not necessarily true. It is a matter of having the access to bump your effective level though. I had Improved Turning and Extra Turning right off the bat. So I started with a +1 Effective Turn level. I got lucky and saw access which let me add Sacred Armor (a +2 to Effect Level for the Turn Check) and a Rod of Defiance (-4 Turn Resistance to all undead in 30 feet) which really helped out. Just with that, 5 ranks of K(Religion) and Empower Turning plus Consecrate, I'm looking at a turn check of 1d20+5, an effective level of 13 and 1.5(2d6+11) before adding in Charisma. I'm pretty much guaranteed to turn one HD above my level (Clr6/RSop4) baring an unhallow. Now all I need is to see access to Phylactry of Undead Turning (another +4) and one more level of RSoP for Glory domain and I'll turn just about anything. 1d20+7 (before CHA), Turn Level of 18 (not counting the -4 Turn Resistance) and 1.5(3d6+16). I'll be able to turn something with HD at twice my level and know they'll be dusted. The RSoP isn't necessary to make turning work, but the Phylactry and the feats Improved and Empower Turning (both from the PHB) are. Now my dream is to get access to the Light of spells from Complete Champion. The first three especially. They're swift spells which add to your turn check (up to +5), turn level to determine max HD affected (again up to +5), and turn damage (up to +5d6). The fourth converts a turn into damage done to all undead in the radius. Not sure if we'll ever see access (probably be NONC, most likely not be Open), but if you do and are a cleric take them. You'll become a turning cleric whether you were one before or not. They're up there with Death Ward and Consecrate in your kill undead toolbox. Miles Ward Player of Delmar Goodman, Cleric 6/RSoP 4 healer/turner extraordinaire, he's got toys (Augment Healing, Ring of Mystic Healing) to help with the healing too