Post/Author/DateTime	Post
solbergb 12-22-07, 11:51 PM	Probably 3-4 days after Christmas my sorceress will hit level 14 and I'll play out the second 2/3 of a convention having Limited wish. I have some ideas what spells would be "worth it" to lim wish, but I'm curious as to what other arcanists out there normally reach for when they spend 300xp. If you don't respond by the 26th, I won't see it. I'm on a plane on the 27th. So lets see some thoughts. I'm not so much interested in theory as in the spells you have actuall spent 300xp on in Living Greyhawk play, to replicate with limited wish. I'm also interested in why, if anyone is in a storytelling mood. What situation was dire enough to make you reach for it, knowing you can only cast it a couple times a mod before bumping up against the xp/module limit. I already know one answer - Copper Wyrmling's sorceress used limited with to replicate telekenesis because we had 14 size large +5 greatswords in the room and Olivia was having too much fun throwing them around and Copper's sorceress wanted to join in the fun. But other answers are good too :) When I get back, if I felt the need to cast the spell, I'll share what I did and why. (it's possible I might not cast it. I'm taking limited wish for the same reason my character has some scrolls. Occasionally the usual spells just don't get the job done. Plus Olivia's been studying her own magic for years, has spent a couple levels with Analyze Dwoemer and has finally got it all figured out, how it is that OTHER people do magic. Her proof is that she can replicate spells from any spell list....it's just harder for her because she isn't groveling to some deity or slavishly copying how some guy 1000 years ago cast a spell as a shortcut or relying on one of her ancestors sleeping with a magical creature in a likely polymorph-assisted relationship)
copperwyrmling 12-23-07, 12:17 AM	I already know one answer - Copper Wyrmling's sorceress used limited with to replicate telekenesis because we had 14 size large +5 greatswords in the room and Olivia was having too much fun throwing them around and Copper's sorceress wanted to join in the fun. "I Wish I could do that too!" Hehe. That was a great table :) The poor monsters... My other Lim Wish castings: - Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, to protect a potentially plot-critical NPC from dread wraiths. I could've teleported her out, but to get her far enough away that I was absolutely sure the dread wraiths wouldn't go after her would've required me to spend a second action teleporting back to the fight, and I didn't want to do that. - Daylight, when a PC had just cast Blacklight, walked into it, and gotten grappled by a sneaky antimagic-monster that shuts down your magic items and prevents you from using spells while grappled. He yelled for help through the telepathic link, so Azrien killed the Blacklight for the rest of the party so they could see to help him. - Antimagic Field, when we walked into a CR 20 wizard and his four CR 15-16 buddies with a weak APL 14 table in a battle interactive, and he got off his full action and then 10 rounds of sudden extended timestop (via celerity) on initiative count 49. There were about 100 levels' worth of area spells in effect by the time any of us got to act, so Az told the Magic to stop listening to the nasty wizard before she went in to rescue people (but it was difficult for the Magic to remember that it wasn't meant to help him, since he WAS a really awesome wizard, so it couldn't concentrate on anything else Az was asking it to do in the meantime... at least, that's how she rationalized it). In that same encounter, I considered Limited Wishing for Control Winds to clear out all the nasty fog spells in the room, but decided not to, because the fog spells were also blocking the enemy wizard's line of sight to half the party.
solbergb 12-23-07, 12:30 AM	Hehe. That was a great table :) The poor monsters... . They had their day. Note to other arcanists. Having a bow, three arrows of bone divine power on yourself and some good defensive buffs does not in fact allow you to solo APL14 encounters. He killed the dangerous enemies with the arrows of bone and then proceeded to get the snot beaten out of him by the minions. The rescue was kind of entertaining to watch. (half the party was interrogating prisoners/rescuees. He got bored and decided to use his buffs while they were running.....he was rescued by boring spells like fireball and lightning bolt...from the two nonsocial wizards who ran to help)
magebeast 12-23-07, 12:50 AM	I remember my friends telling me about the time where they didn't have a cleric and they had to fight a planetar. Limited Wish for align weapon, mass if I remember correctly. I can only assume he had access! Not many times where you need your weapons to pierce DR/Evil.
solbergb 12-23-07, 12:59 AM	Actually, Olivia has fought enough self-righteous Eladrin that she alignment shifted from Chaotic Good to Neutral Good just to not have her ethics associated with such stupid beings. She's still pretty far on the chaotic side of the NG axis. We narrowly avoided fighting a pack of bear-like celestials in a recent adventure too, that were behaving like utter jerks. Why do the beings that claim to be embodyments of freedom always think they know better than her what's good for her? She's also run into a fair number of misguided LG fanatics who at these APLs would undoubtedly have righeous might running. The idea of Lim Wishing to beat DR/evil is certainly something that has come up before in her life. She doesn't have mass align weapon, but it's usually enough to fix up the BDF's weapon and launch him at the enemy...
lunarfish 12-23-07, 01:47 AM	They had their day. Note to other arcanists. Having a bow, three arrows of bone divine power on yourself and some good defensive buffs does not in fact allow you to solo APL14 encounters. He killed the dangerous enemies with the arrows of bone and then proceeded to get the snot beaten out of him by the minions. The rescue was kind of entertaining to watch. (half the party was interrogating prisoners/rescuees. He got bored and decided to use his buffs while they were running.....he was rescued by boring spells like fireball and lightning bolt...from the two nonsocial wizards who ran to help) Ahh, Lomiat... Of all people, he should know better. In any case, my own wizard has used Limited Wish for only three spells in his career. Twice I've used a Limited Wish for Daylight - my favorite was using it on creatures with light blindness. Good times. The only other spell I've Limited Wished for was in the exact same situation as Azrien - a room full of Acid Fog, so I Limited Wished for Control Winds to disperse it.
_metz_ 12-23-07, 03:59 AM	- Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, to protect a potentially plot-critical NPC from dread wraiths. I could've teleported her out, but to get her far enough away that I was absolutely sure the dread wraiths wouldn't go after her would've required me to spend a second action teleporting back to the fight, and I didn't want to do that. - Daylight, when a PC had just cast Blacklight, walked into it, and gotten grappled by a sneaky antimagic-monster that shuts down your magic items and prevents you from using spells while grappled. He yelled for help through the telepathic link, so Azrien killed the Blacklight for the rest of the party so they could see to help him. I feel glad that I was able to elicit two in the same mod! (feel bad for you xp though) I've seen it used for: 1. Restoration when the party was out of other Restorations/including backup scrolls etc 2. Cure a Feeblemind that had hit the cleric (cleric rolled three 1s in a row, was hilarious from a GM perspective) 3. Emergency Teleport.
JohnduBois 12-23-07, 09:57 AM	I've personally used Limited Wish to cast Antimagic Field, and Incorporeal Nova (which is NONC). I've seen it used to cast Glibness. Very useful for lying to the Church of Rao in Veluna. Something that might be interesting is to check the spell lists of some of the new prestige classes to see if they get spells at a lower level than other classes.
solbergb 12-23-07, 10:51 AM	I've personally used Limited Wish to cast Antimagic Field, and Incorporeal Nova (which is NONC). I've seen it used to cast Glibness. Very useful for lying to the Church of Rao in Veluna. ooh....glibness. I'll be in Dyvvers. There may be an opportunity for that. Good catch :). It occurs to me that the spell that turns you into a rogue (or tenser's transformation for that matter) have their annoying "potion of cat grace/bull strength" material components fall under the level provided by Lim Wish. Should I be in some specialized situation that requires either, that could be handy. I'm also seeing a trend that the arcane with this spell is the backup cleric for all the nasty conditions that can't be fixed with healing spells or lesser restoration. Makes sense.
Redfist 12-23-07, 11:27 AM	I've used it for a ton of reasons. These are some of my favorites: 1. Wall of Stone. I used the wall of stone to put a dome around a spell turret that was too high for anyone to throw a cloak over. Plus, why wait until you're THAT close to disable it? 2. Control Water. In a scenario where we fought something that used murky water as cover, this was a game changer.
MwaO 12-23-07, 01:00 PM	I'd note that Beguiler and Healer both have some interesting spells. Rejuvenation Cocoon isn't a bad "Heal" in some cases. Healer gets it as a 4th level spell, which might have some interesting uses if your DM allows you to put feats into it. Sure, Heal is better, but... Whether or not your DM will let you use Limited Wish to access the Beguiler-only access spells might involve table variation, but if the DM allows it, then some spells are very interesting - Incite Riot as an example does exactly what you'd like it to do against a group of high CR creatures that aren't immune to enchantment without additional table variation.
copperwyrmling 12-23-07, 01:48 PM	I feel glad that I was able to elicit two in the same mod! (feel bad for you xp though) Azrien doesn't need XP, she's going to hit 15th in short order anyway, and then probably play the entire final arc ;) She's a non-crafter, so doesn't burn XP in the usual caster ways, so I'm fairly cavalier about using Limited Wish. I don't think you can Lim Wish for beguiler NONC spells (or Heal from Adept), but I'm sure some GMs will think otherwise - it's a good point. Hmm. Healer has Vigorous Circle as a fifth-level spell. That's nice for out-of-combat healing in a zero-divine party, where more than one person is injured.
MwaO 12-23-07, 01:58 PM	I don't think you can Lim Wish for beguiler NONC spells (or Heal from Adept), but I'm sure some GMs will think otherwise - it's a good point. Adept isn't an open PC choice. You could choose your PC to be a Beguiler and then actually cast that spell as a Beguiler. I can see how it could go either way, though. Unfortunately, the best Beguiler spells of all at those levels are the swift action ones, which Limited Wish doesn't really help with...
solbergb 12-23-07, 02:20 PM	I've used it for a ton of reasons. These are some of my favorites: 1. Wall of Stone. I used the wall of stone to put a dome around a spell turret that was too high for anyone to throw a cloak over. Plus, why wait until you're THAT close to disable it? 2. Control Water. In a scenario where we fought something that used murky water as cover, this was a game changer. For wall of stone Olivia has many options already. That's pretty unlikely. Most times wall of force or solid fog in some combination can solve those problems (or mobility spells in case of wanting to make a bridge etc) Control water though is a good one. I've seen it used very effectely to either lower or raise water. I was looking forward to getting it someday on both my asherati cleric with water domain and my procan favored soul, but sadly the campaign won't last that long. As I said earlier don't worry about if it is legal, just say if the judge allowed it and add a note that it might not work at all tables. I've seen adept/heal a couple times personally, for example. I'm unlikely to use anything other than straight spell replication, but you never know. If the wizard cast limited wish earlier and got to add metamagic feats, you might see a sculpted cyclonic blast from Olivia (a spell she won't have known until level 15) I think Incite Riot is only open for beguilers (unlike Heal, which is open for everybody) so I can't use it unless I get access some other way. It is a tremendously fun spell, I've gotten to use it on PC parties in one adventure I GM'd to devastating effect.
solbergb 01-02-08, 02:28 PM	My actual uses of limited wish after I got it: 1. Speak with Animals. (city slickers in a forest needs to know where the lynx hid the shiny thing....) 2. Dimension door to get squishy out of grapple before all the ranged touch people in the party tossed enervations and orbs and stuff (700gp to use a scroll vs 300xp, not even a question which way to go) 3. Atonement. (artifact has dominated Olivia and is looking for a proper carrier. The only one who qualifies is the wrong alignment. Olivia is the right alignment and uses her considerable persuasive skills to convince the other guy to take an arcane atonement. "I've watched a sacred exorcist do this, it's just a matter of technique. I warn you that you may get a bit of her personality because I'm reconstructing it from what I witnissed" (and later "Your brain turns inside out. Suddenly it seems like evil is what is important to defeat rather than chaos, and the suffering of the weak matters more than maintaining order".) 4. Removal of a mark of justice once out of sight of NPC's. Olivia will keep her word without it just fine, thank you very much. 5. Teleport followed by Summon monster 6 (for 2-5 water elementals). We had a little "oops" and a village full of nice people was burning down and the five children we rescued from that village needed to go back to their parents. The two druids were brought in a couple rounds later via the other sorc (who had dim door and a rod of enlarge spell). (Olivia had caster level to move all kids in one shot, sorcerer did not) Yup, like the spell. Dont need it often but it's a nice thing to have.
Timlagor 01-02-08, 05:06 PM	I saw it used rather a lot for Feeblemind: just to get the extra 2 on the save DC ..doesn't really seem worthwhile to me but it did work.
copperwyrmling 01-02-08, 05:36 PM	I played another mod with Az, where I used Limited Wish for Mass Darkvision and again considered using it for Control Winds but decided not to (we were going to be out of the cloudkill on the next round anyway, there weren't any innocents nearby, and we'd already taken our Con damage for that round).
Maesto 01-03-08, 01:08 PM	I've had limited wish for a fair while now; it's my "turn a wizard into a sorceror" spell, once I've used the alacritous cogitation for the day. So much fun being able to cast any spell whenever you want it! Most notable use of limited wish: We're being beaten up pretty badly by an advanced half-dragon horrid umberholk. I'm flying up in the air a fair way away, and party members on the ground need healing. I wish for 1d3 unimicorns! Oops, I'm a little too far off the ground... Ok, it's going to fall and take 2d6 damage (yeah, I know, this isn't precisely correct under the summoning rules). 1d3 = 1! Unicorn appears! Unicorn falls! Unicorn looks at the horrid umberhulk. Unicorn blows it's will save! Damnit! Restoration is a fairly commonly wished spell, and I've done divine power in the past too. Divine Power is so much better to wish for than Tenser's Transformation, so long as you remember Lomiat's caveat.
Lomiat 01-05-08, 01:06 AM	Restoration is a fairly commonly wished spell, and I've done divine power in the past too. Divine Power is so much better to wish for than Tenser's Transformation, so long as you remember Lomiat's caveat. I'm not sure I remember my own caveat. What was it? Or is this another jab at the invigorating melee I endured? (As far as that goes, I had a Teleport on tap and, despite the AMF, could have dropped the AMF as a standard action to Trollshape the familiar into an Engine of Death [TM] ... except I was suffering mid-mod-fatigue and forgot half of what I had remaining on my spell list.) Let's see... any notable wishes? 1) Isis comes back from the dead! 2) Some random rogue dude at Gencon comes back from the dead! 3) Uh... don't suffer those negative levels you lost from Energy Drain. (Story's too integrated into a current module to give the background.) 4) Stalwart Pact. (Okay, no real "story," here, but it's been useful.) 5) Regenerating my own arm (shortly after double-checking with the DM to make certain he'd allow a LimWish to regenerate my arm if I cut it off). Other than that? Mostly as others have suggested. Lots of Divine Powers and stuff. Divine Power, by the way, is a much better Wish than Tenser's. It stinks to lose spellcasting abilities.