Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Cynric 09-25-06, 11:58 PM	Ok I am looking at staeting a Scout, ranger, dread Commando build in Ratik. My role in the party is to provide trap finding and a bit of back up tracking, ranged combat. The question is. Will an INT of 14 and maxed ranks in disable do it, or will I need to take Tactile Trapsmith to get by.
Sieylianna 09-26-06, 07:44 AM	Ok I am looking at staeting a Scout, ranger, dread Commando build in Ratik. My role in the party is to provide trap finding and a bit of back up tracking, ranged combat. The question is. Will an INT of 14 and maxed ranks in disable do it, or will I need to take Tactile Trapsmith to get by. It depends on your Dexterity. If it's six points higher than your Intelligence, it may be worth a feat for the improvement, but it's not something that I would worry about until level 9 or so. IMO, scouts do not make good ranged combatants because giving up a full attack isn't worth the skirmish damage. Ed
Cynric 09-26-06, 06:53 PM	True but that is why I am just doing it for roleplay, trapfinding, survival, Speak Language. Looking at the woodsy explorer type guy.
Ira_Dei 09-26-06, 08:35 PM	If you're only going to make one attack a round, check out Order of the Bow Initiate from Complete Warrior. Bonus damage if you only make one shot per round.
Cynric 09-26-06, 09:25 PM	I will be getting more than one shot a round. Dread commando gives sneak like attacks. I will only be down one point of Bab so it should be a case of rapid shot and hopefully flatfooted (+14 initiative) enemies taking 3d6 points of damage before the bow and enhancements kick in at level 11
UMiskatonic 09-28-06, 02:02 PM	What Ed is trying to say is that if you take multiple attacks a round, you don't get skirmish dice. Likewise, if you get skirmish dice, you only get one attack a round. Therefore, a scout is an inferior archer, compared to a ranger or fighter. And you realize that by LG advancement, level 11 is about two years away? That's a long time to be sub-par.
DuctShuiTengu 09-28-06, 02:39 PM	What Ed is trying to say is that if you take multiple attacks a round, you don't get skirmish dice. Likewise, if you get skirmish dice, you only get one attack a round. Therefore, a scout is an inferior archer, compared to a ranger or fighter. And you realize that by LG advancement, level 11 is about two years away? That's a long time to be sub-par. Not quite. It's just hard as :censored: for an archer to get a full-attack after moving, since mounted archery has been specificly written in as not giving skirmish dice. One fairly simple way of doing it per the RAW (though per RAI, I think most of us will agree that this shouldn't be allowed) does involve the use of a mount. You start your turn next to your mount, make a ride check to mount as a free action, then another ride check to dismount as a free action, getting off on the other side. You've now moved 10+ feet and have your full round left. Yes, riding your horse doesn't let you skirmish, but vaulting over it does. As I said, it really shouldn't work (and I probably wouldn't allow it at a table that I was judging) but per the way the rules are written, it kinda does.
Sieylianna 09-29-06, 07:46 AM	Not quite. It's just hard as :censored: for an archer to get a full-attack after moving, since mounted archery has been specificly written in as not giving skirmish dice. That's why my archer moves in 5' steps across the battlefield. Maybe once a combat, he'll need to move (and use manyshot), but the rest of the time he's getting a full attack. Ed
UMiskatonic 09-29-06, 02:41 PM	As far as the original build is concerned, you can always try it and see. You'll be fine for a while, and if you notice traps keep blowing up in your face, then you can decide at that time to take the feat. Who knows, by then you might get access to goggles of minute seeing or something.
Cynric 10-01-06, 07:09 AM	As far as the original build is concerned, you can always try it and see. You'll be fine for a while, and if you notice traps keep blowing up in your face, then you can decide at that time to take the feat. Who knows, by then you might get access to goggles of minute seeing or something. Which is what I will probably be doing. Just thought I would ask around if anyone else had some experience. Thanks again
Iswald 10-01-06, 09:04 AM	I will be getting more than one shot a round. Dread commando gives sneak like attacks. I will only be down one point of Bab so it should be a case of rapid shot and hopefully flatfooted (+14 initiative) enemies taking 3d6 points of damage before the bow and enhancements kick in at level 11 Dread commando doesn't synergize well with archery. You spend two feats to get dodge and mobility which are melee feats. The most likely feats to take to make these two useful are also melee orientated (spring attack and elusive target). Sudden strike only works when your opponent is denied their dex bonus to AC. Flanking doesn't help. It's likely that you'll only get sudden strike damage the first round (if surprise isn't a factor). If you made your charater to take advantage of the sniper rules, you would be more likely to get in your sudden strikes. Recently, I've been thinking that monk/dread commando would be a more effective combination since they could try to stun their victim and then get sudden strike damage. Plus, they could take elusive target so dodge and mobility aren't completely wasted. Still, even knowing the problems, I actually started a character to take dread commando and use archery. Currently third level, he's spent most of his time in melee instead of hanging back and using his javelins. He won't be able to take precise shot until 9th level. If he ever gets a bow, he won't be very effective with it much of the time until halfway through his LG career.
JosephKell 10-01-06, 03:02 PM	Dodge and Mobility aren't that bad for an Archer actually. Together they are +5 to AC vs that big scary guy with reach that you are moving away from.
TWG_Prometheus 10-03-06, 09:50 AM	Not quite. It's just hard as :censored: for an archer to get a full-attack after moving, since mounted archery has been specificly written in as not giving skirmish dice. One fairly simple way of doing it per the RAW (though per RAI, I think most of us will agree that this shouldn't be allowed) does involve the use of a mount. You start your turn next to your mount, make a ride check to mount as a free action, then another ride check to dismount as a free action, getting off on the other side. You've now moved 10+ feet and have your full round left. Yes, riding your horse doesn't let you skirmish, but vaulting over it does. As I said, it really shouldn't work (and I probably wouldn't allow it at a table that I was judging) but per the way the rules are written, it kinda does. The errata doesn't specify that Skirmish can't be used while moving on a mount, just that it can't be used while mounted. I'd think that would rule this out. (Skirmish being partially a movement ability, so you can't be mounted while you're moving.) Also, a Judge is completely within their rights to limit your number of free actions taken at any time. If they don't in this circumstance, they should. If nothing else, a Judge should, as you said, just disallow it. They don't particularly need a reason to do so in a case this blatant.
Mommy was an Orc 10-03-06, 10:27 AM	Dodge and Mobility aren't that bad for an Archer actually. Together they are +5 to AC vs that big scary guy with reach that you are moving away from. Most archers should have a couple of ranks in Tumble, if not at least 5. Not taking an AoO is a lot better than taking an attack. Also, more importantly, that attack doesn't have to be on your character, it can be on your bow as a Sunder. At which point it is opposed attack rolls and your +5 to AC doesn't mean anything...
Cynric 10-03-06, 08:02 PM	All very true. Hence the character will have a decent tumble and I envision him as being a static archer (Rapid Shot) who has the option of moving around when needed (Skirmish, tumble etc).
solbergb 10-04-06, 02:33 PM	Most archers should have a couple of ranks in Tumble, if not at least 5. Not taking an AoO is a lot better than taking an attack. . I never did get around to this. But my guy doesn't tend to get surprised in close often and travels with a really good battlefield control druid/summoner most of the time. It's good advice, even if I have not followed it (in favor of trying to max spot/listen after an excursion into a bunch of 2 skill point classes without spot/listen on their skill list) Gretchen's druid: "My wolf charges melee monster #1. The three dire bats I summon with rapid spell block melee monsters 2-4." Me: "Cool. I stand here and feather the one that bat#2 hit. And 5' step back." Also, more importantly, that attack doesn't have to be on your character, it can be on your bow as a Sunder. At which point it is opposed attack rolls and your +5 to AC doesn't mean anything... Word. This is one reason I don't like to draw my bow until it's time to shoot (and love quickdraw). The tendency to get disarmed or sundered goes down if the bow isn't in your hand when you're putting some distance between you and the melee guy. I've also been known to full attack with throwing or splash weapons close-in on stuff without combat reflexes. This problem is also why I despise things like Close Combat Shot or even any feat that requires you to be within 30' of the enemy. Sure I'll pack an arrow mind sometimes, but it isn't a way I like to fight against any opponent who understands what a bow is. The bow is hideously vulnerable in melee range.
GenghisBob 10-11-06, 05:17 PM	Why not try a Rog / Rang combo ? Rather than the scout. Rog/Rang has lots of synergy gives you Rapid shot at 2nd and trap finding and auto UMD on CLW sticks. Look at the DMG on magic traps, that gives you your base DC for Traps, in my experience you want to be able to hit 25+ on every search roll and 28+ on most disable rolls. Get your self a MW thiefs tool kit for +2, take Tactile Trapsmith around level 9 if you think you need it. GB
Japangirl 10-12-06, 03:05 AM	My rogue had to tank some skills because of prestige class requirements, so I kept up search but haven't much in disable device. It's always useful to know the trap is there, but our resident druid accurately remarked that I don't disable traps. I poke them with a stick and hope they disable themselves :). Basically, as long as you can find the traps, being able to disable isn't quite as important. There are ways around almost all of them, or "safe" ways of setting them off. Of course, this is only an issue if you are lacking skill points.
GenghisBob 10-12-06, 04:21 AM	Basically, as long as you can find the traps, being able to disable isn't quite as important. There are ways around almost all of them, or "safe" ways of setting them off. Of course, this is only an issue if you are lacking skill points. This is true most times. Until you get the 4 wailing Banshees at APL14 DC32 Trap would have diabled it as would some wizard shenanigans..... Or even the low level Prismatic Spray Trap. Poking these with sticks is jsut not cricket ;)
Japangirl 10-12-06, 05:25 PM	Been there, done that :(. But finding them was the most important thing, as then I had a good idea that nastiness was about to ensue and we could take proper precautions. Getting a DC 32 Disable Device check, even with maxed ranks and a MW thieves tools, isn't at all a sure thing. Assume 14 int, 17 ranks at level 14, +2 for tools, you're still only sitting at +21. 50/50 isn't great chances, I'd rather have somebody else do something a little less chancy. Of course, you can focus in it, but I'm assuming a combat rogue built much like mine with no feats to spare. Did I mention the epic level trap at APL 12? Unluck, followed by a Chained Maximed Enervate (it is impossible I know, I didn't write it in), followed by a Wail of the Banshee. That one was . . . unpleasant, even though the Wail of the Banshee wasn't fatal due to extenuating circumstances.
Cynric 10-12-06, 07:28 PM	Thanks for all the help. Looks like I will be putting tactile trapsmith into my build at either 9 or 12. Most likely 9, so I can get inproved precise at 12.
ezreal2001 10-12-06, 08:30 PM	Basically, as long as you can find the traps, being able to disable isn't quite as important. There are ways around almost all of them, or "safe" ways of setting them off. Of course, this is only an issue if you are lacking skill points. This is true most times. Until you get the 4 wailing Banshees at APL14 DC32 Trap would have diabled it as would some wizard shenanigans..... Or even the low level Prismatic Spray Trap. Poking these with sticks is jsut not cricket ;) Actually my current fav is a couple of spell turrets that mix up greater dispell magic, Reciprocating Gyre and Wail of the Banshee. Oh and the cherry on top of all this is that noise should alert anything in range that isn't deaf:) Yes Virginina there really are traps after CR 10