An Unseen Seer Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

An Unseen Seer Rogue [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mommy was an Orc
03-06-07, 11:23 AM As if there was any other kind of Rogue...(say the title outloud...bad WotC designer, bad...)

This is a Rogue build - I'm fully well aware that there are more powerful builds with better caster levels - this is the guy for someone who wants to play a Melee Rogue and doesn't want to mess with retraining at all.

Human
Str 10, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8

1: Rogue 1: TWF, Improved Initiative
2: Fighter 1: Weapon Finesse
3: Wizard 1: Quickdraw, Scribe Scroll
4: Rogue 2: Dex 16
5: Rogue 3
6: Unseen Seer 1: Practiced Spellcaster
7: Unseen Seer 2: (pick up Grave Strike as spell choice known)
8: Spellsword 1: Dex 17
9: Unseen Seer 3: CWI
10: Unseen Seer 4: (catch up Disable Device here)
11: Unseen Seer 5 (pick up Vine Strike or some other kind of spell)
12: Unseen Seer 6: Arcane Strike: Dex 18
13: Unseen Seer 7
14: Unseen Seer 8 (pick up a favorite divination spell)
15: Wizard 2: ITWF

BAB +10, +6d6 Sneak Attack, 6th level spells, no retraining required at all(unless you want), False Life/Crafted Amulet of Health gives you the same hit points as any other Rogue, if not more, etc...

Cast Blink(9th) or Improved Invisibility(11th) and go to work...
Alpha_Nerd
03-06-07, 11:31 AM Blink/Invisibility + Whirling Blades (Rod of Sculpt if you got it) + Staggering Strike is a beating.
Timlagor
03-06-07, 12:44 PM I'm failing to see the problem with the title...
Mommy was an Orc
03-06-07, 04:13 PM I'm failing to see the problem with the title...

Unseen Seer = Insincere
SirApropos
03-06-07, 04:24 PM Blink/Invisibility + Whirling Blades (Rod of Sculpt if you got it) + Staggering Strike is a beating.

Off topic but Whirling Blades is not Sculptable because it does not have an area, it is a 60ft line effect.

Otherwise a fine tactic.
Japangirl
03-06-07, 05:54 PM Lines are areas. If you notice, Sculpt Spell allows you to make AOE spells into lines as well. That is why sculpting it into a fireball formation makes it absolutely stupid.
copper_wyrmling
03-06-07, 08:04 PM Lines are areas. If you notice, Sculpt Spell allows you to make AOE spells into lines as well. That is why sculpting it into a fireball formation makes it absolutely stupid.

Sure, Sculpt can make area spells into lines. The issue is that Whirling Blade does not have an Area entry, it has an Effect entry (so if you read "area spell" as "Area spell", anything without an Area entry is not a valid target for Sculpt). The cloud spells have the same issue. Thus, expect table variation on whether they can be Sculpted.
Timlagor
03-06-07, 09:48 PM This one has been much discussed and the upshot is that there will be table variation: both sides have valid arguments.
Mommy was an Orc
03-06-07, 09:55 PM Yes, not to mention, everyone seems to be bringing up table variation ideas in my character threads, and arguing about them - and not talking about the actual character builds.
Japangirl
03-06-07, 10:21 PM Well, the build is solid so there isn't a whole lot to say about it. You lose all the straight rogue benefits (uncanny dodge, rogue 10/13 abilities) but you are a caster so it's not a big problem.

Why are you taking 1 swashbuckler, for free Weapon Finesse? You're likely to be either casting or hitting, not both, because of the actions required. So if you're a melee build, stop taking caster levels after a few Unseen Seer levels and if you're a caster build, don't take TWF/ITWF/Finesse.
Mommy was an Orc
03-07-07, 10:16 AM Well, the build is solid so there isn't a whole lot to say about it. You lose all the straight rogue benefits (uncanny dodge, rogue 10/13 abilities) but you are a caster so it's not a big problem.

Why are you taking 1 swashbuckler, for free Weapon Finesse? You're likely to be either casting or hitting, not both, because of the actions required. So if you're a melee build, stop taking caster levels after a few Unseen Seer levels and if you're a caster build, don't take TWF/ITWF/Finesse.

Actually, that's a very good point about Swashbuckler - I should replace it with Fighter for Spellsword 1. Forgot that.

But, it is both. Unseen Seer means d4 hp, but it still gets the +3/4 BAB. With False Life, it basically has more hit points than an equivalent Rogue. Then it self-supplies the kind of spells that every Rogue wishes it could have - also, the higher the caster level(and therefore the higher the level of spells), the more powerful Arcane Strike becomes.

At 12th level, the character is self-GMWing and Greater Invis. It has +5d6 Sneak Attack damage. So here's a couple of potential options:
Master's Touch on a Lynxpaw - this is a finessable double weapon that can be wielded in one hand. i.e. you can use both ends or one end with arcane strike.
Chill Touch for up to 11 Touches

So whenever, simply cast Chill Touch and hold the charge. Assuming Boots of Speed, you'll get 4 attacks in a round - that's 28d6 of Melee Touch Attacks that require saves(critical strike). That ought to last 3 rounds and you can always whip out the Lynxpaw if it doesn't or you find it doesn't work quite right.

The Lynxpaw does at 12th 1d6+2(Str)+2(GMW)+2d4(sacrificed 2nd level spell)+say +2d6 of enchant+5d6 of Sneak+1d6 Critical Strike = 40 hp of damage. Note that 20 hp of that is not sneak - this character could easily be doing 60 hp of damage to non-sneakable foe. The other end only does about 30.

If you get access to Heroics, you could even cast that to get ITWF at 12th. With a +8 BAB at 12th and a 24 Dex, this character is not missing very often when using Greater Invis and Arcane Strike - hits all 5 times, and that's 200 hp of damage. A Barbarian monster with a 30 Str would be happy to put only 7 points onto Power Attack and get that kind of damage...(should be same to-hit chance at that point assuming Greater Invis/GMW provides no bonus that the Barbarian doesn't have access to)
Alpha_Nerd
03-08-07, 10:24 AM If you drop Arcane Trickster 2 for Unseen Seer 8 and Wizard 2 you gain a BAB.
Mommy was an Orc
03-08-07, 11:25 AM If you drop Arcane Trickster 2 for Unseen Seer 8 and Wizard 2 you gain a BAB.

That seems worthwhile, especially with just subbing in retraining for Disable Device. Build changed to reflect it(kind of a 'do I want +1d6 or +11 BAB at 15th level decision)
Hariman
03-08-07, 06:45 PM I'd squeeze in "Hunter's Eye" as a divination spell learned through Unseen Seer.

It'll give you an extra d6 of sneak attack damage per 3 levels. It's a ranger level 2 spell, so Unseen Seer is the only way I know to get it outside of being a ranger.

Sure, Hunter's Eye is useless against undead/constructs/etc, but combined with Glitterdust/Improved invisibility/Greater Blink and other spells that let you sneak attack easily, it is pretty damn good.
Jay_Ibero_911
03-08-07, 07:15 PM I'd squeeze in "Hunter's Eye" as a divination spell learned through Unseen Seer.

It'll give you an extra d6 of sneak attack damage per 3 levels. It's a ranger level 2 spell, so Unseen Seer is the only way I know to get it outside of being a ranger.

Sure, Hunter's Eye is useless against undead/constructs/etc, but combined with Glitterdust/Improved invisibility/Greater Blink and other spells that let you sneak attack easily, it is pretty damn good.

What book is that in? Hunter's Eye?
Mommy was an Orc
03-09-07, 12:55 PM What book is that in? Hunter's Eye?

PHBII - limited spells are interesting, but if you can't be certain you'll get it, hard to base a build around it.
Mommy was an Orc
03-09-07, 03:51 PM Also note, you can definitely change this build up depending on what you want to do:
Archer Rogue
1: PBS, Precise Shot
2: Rapid Shot
3: Improved Initiative
12: Woodland Archer
15: Improved Precise Shot

Spiked Chain Rogue(Master's Touch for EWP: Spiked Chain)
1: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm(or Improved Trip)
2: Quickdraw
3: Combat Reflexes
12: Combat Acrobat(if Improved Trip)

Or change the stats around for more of a Gish build
Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 8

Etc...
Hariman
03-09-07, 10:41 PM PHBII - limited spells are interesting, but if you can't be certain you'll get it, hard to base a build around it.

Damn, I forgot to check to see if it was "open".

Gravestrike and Golemstrike are good choices then. I've been told that Vinestrike is meh, because there aren't that many plant creatures out there.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mommy was an Orc 03-06-07, 11:23 AM	As if there was any other kind of Rogue...(say the title outloud...bad WotC designer, bad...) This is a Rogue build - I'm fully well aware that there are more powerful builds with better caster levels - this is the guy for someone who wants to play a Melee Rogue and doesn't want to mess with retraining at all. Human Str 10, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8 1: Rogue 1: TWF, Improved Initiative 2: Fighter 1: Weapon Finesse 3: Wizard 1: Quickdraw, Scribe Scroll 4: Rogue 2: Dex 16 5: Rogue 3 6: Unseen Seer 1: Practiced Spellcaster 7: Unseen Seer 2: (pick up Grave Strike as spell choice known) 8: Spellsword 1: Dex 17 9: Unseen Seer 3: CWI 10: Unseen Seer 4: (catch up Disable Device here) 11: Unseen Seer 5 (pick up Vine Strike or some other kind of spell) 12: Unseen Seer 6: Arcane Strike: Dex 18 13: Unseen Seer 7 14: Unseen Seer 8 (pick up a favorite divination spell) 15: Wizard 2: ITWF BAB +10, +6d6 Sneak Attack, 6th level spells, no retraining required at all(unless you want), False Life/Crafted Amulet of Health gives you the same hit points as any other Rogue, if not more, etc... Cast Blink(9th) or Improved Invisibility(11th) and go to work...
Alpha_Nerd 03-06-07, 11:31 AM	Blink/Invisibility + Whirling Blades (Rod of Sculpt if you got it) + Staggering Strike is a beating.
Timlagor 03-06-07, 12:44 PM	I'm failing to see the problem with the title...
Mommy was an Orc 03-06-07, 04:13 PM	I'm failing to see the problem with the title... Unseen Seer = Insincere
SirApropos 03-06-07, 04:24 PM	Blink/Invisibility + Whirling Blades (Rod of Sculpt if you got it) + Staggering Strike is a beating. Off topic but Whirling Blades is not Sculptable because it does not have an area, it is a 60ft line effect. Otherwise a fine tactic.
Japangirl 03-06-07, 05:54 PM	Lines are areas. If you notice, Sculpt Spell allows you to make AOE spells into lines as well. That is why sculpting it into a fireball formation makes it absolutely stupid.
copper_wyrmling 03-06-07, 08:04 PM	Lines are areas. If you notice, Sculpt Spell allows you to make AOE spells into lines as well. That is why sculpting it into a fireball formation makes it absolutely stupid. Sure, Sculpt can make area spells into lines. The issue is that Whirling Blade does not have an Area entry, it has an Effect entry (so if you read "area spell" as "Area spell", anything without an Area entry is not a valid target for Sculpt). The cloud spells have the same issue. Thus, expect table variation on whether they can be Sculpted.
Timlagor 03-06-07, 09:48 PM	This one has been much discussed and the upshot is that there will be table variation: both sides have valid arguments.
Mommy was an Orc 03-06-07, 09:55 PM	Yes, not to mention, everyone seems to be bringing up table variation ideas in my character threads, and arguing about them - and not talking about the actual character builds.
Japangirl 03-06-07, 10:21 PM	Well, the build is solid so there isn't a whole lot to say about it. You lose all the straight rogue benefits (uncanny dodge, rogue 10/13 abilities) but you are a caster so it's not a big problem. Why are you taking 1 swashbuckler, for free Weapon Finesse? You're likely to be either casting or hitting, not both, because of the actions required. So if you're a melee build, stop taking caster levels after a few Unseen Seer levels and if you're a caster build, don't take TWF/ITWF/Finesse.
Mommy was an Orc 03-07-07, 10:16 AM	Well, the build is solid so there isn't a whole lot to say about it. You lose all the straight rogue benefits (uncanny dodge, rogue 10/13 abilities) but you are a caster so it's not a big problem. Why are you taking 1 swashbuckler, for free Weapon Finesse? You're likely to be either casting or hitting, not both, because of the actions required. So if you're a melee build, stop taking caster levels after a few Unseen Seer levels and if you're a caster build, don't take TWF/ITWF/Finesse. Actually, that's a very good point about Swashbuckler - I should replace it with Fighter for Spellsword 1. Forgot that. But, it is both. Unseen Seer means d4 hp, but it still gets the +3/4 BAB. With False Life, it basically has more hit points than an equivalent Rogue. Then it self-supplies the kind of spells that every Rogue wishes it could have - also, the higher the caster level(and therefore the higher the level of spells), the more powerful Arcane Strike becomes. At 12th level, the character is self-GMWing and Greater Invis. It has +5d6 Sneak Attack damage. So here's a couple of potential options: Master's Touch on a Lynxpaw - this is a finessable double weapon that can be wielded in one hand. i.e. you can use both ends or one end with arcane strike. Chill Touch for up to 11 Touches So whenever, simply cast Chill Touch and hold the charge. Assuming Boots of Speed, you'll get 4 attacks in a round - that's 28d6 of Melee Touch Attacks that require saves(critical strike). That ought to last 3 rounds and you can always whip out the Lynxpaw if it doesn't or you find it doesn't work quite right. The Lynxpaw does at 12th 1d6+2(Str)+2(GMW)+2d4(sacrificed 2nd level spell)+say +2d6 of enchant+5d6 of Sneak+1d6 Critical Strike = 40 hp of damage. Note that 20 hp of that is not sneak - this character could easily be doing 60 hp of damage to non-sneakable foe. The other end only does about 30. If you get access to Heroics, you could even cast that to get ITWF at 12th. With a +8 BAB at 12th and a 24 Dex, this character is not missing very often when using Greater Invis and Arcane Strike - hits all 5 times, and that's 200 hp of damage. A Barbarian monster with a 30 Str would be happy to put only 7 points onto Power Attack and get that kind of damage...(should be same to-hit chance at that point assuming Greater Invis/GMW provides no bonus that the Barbarian doesn't have access to)
Alpha_Nerd 03-08-07, 10:24 AM	If you drop Arcane Trickster 2 for Unseen Seer 8 and Wizard 2 you gain a BAB.
Mommy was an Orc 03-08-07, 11:25 AM	If you drop Arcane Trickster 2 for Unseen Seer 8 and Wizard 2 you gain a BAB. That seems worthwhile, especially with just subbing in retraining for Disable Device. Build changed to reflect it(kind of a 'do I want +1d6 or +11 BAB at 15th level decision)
Hariman 03-08-07, 06:45 PM	I'd squeeze in "Hunter's Eye" as a divination spell learned through Unseen Seer. It'll give you an extra d6 of sneak attack damage per 3 levels. It's a ranger level 2 spell, so Unseen Seer is the only way I know to get it outside of being a ranger. Sure, Hunter's Eye is useless against undead/constructs/etc, but combined with Glitterdust/Improved invisibility/Greater Blink and other spells that let you sneak attack easily, it is pretty damn good.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-08-07, 07:15 PM	I'd squeeze in "Hunter's Eye" as a divination spell learned through Unseen Seer. It'll give you an extra d6 of sneak attack damage per 3 levels. It's a ranger level 2 spell, so Unseen Seer is the only way I know to get it outside of being a ranger. Sure, Hunter's Eye is useless against undead/constructs/etc, but combined with Glitterdust/Improved invisibility/Greater Blink and other spells that let you sneak attack easily, it is pretty damn good. What book is that in? Hunter's Eye?
Mommy was an Orc 03-09-07, 12:55 PM	What book is that in? Hunter's Eye? PHBII - limited spells are interesting, but if you can't be certain you'll get it, hard to base a build around it.
Mommy was an Orc 03-09-07, 03:51 PM	Also note, you can definitely change this build up depending on what you want to do: Archer Rogue 1: PBS, Precise Shot 2: Rapid Shot 3: Improved Initiative 12: Woodland Archer 15: Improved Precise Shot Spiked Chain Rogue(Master's Touch for EWP: Spiked Chain) 1: Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm(or Improved Trip) 2: Quickdraw 3: Combat Reflexes 12: Combat Acrobat(if Improved Trip) Or change the stats around for more of a Gish build Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 8, Cha 8 Etc...
Hariman 03-09-07, 10:41 PM	PHBII - limited spells are interesting, but if you can't be certain you'll get it, hard to base a build around it. Damn, I forgot to check to see if it was "open". Gravestrike and Golemstrike are good choices then. I've been told that Vinestrike is meh, because there aren't that many plant creatures out there.