Post/Author/DateTime	Post
solbergb 01-04-08, 02:06 PM	I posted a full build of my telekenetic sorceress, including stuff about what she did at each level on this thread. Check it out if you're interested. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=974039
copperwyrmling 01-04-08, 02:25 PM	Lesser Dragonshape? Az's rat will be so jealous ;) Congratulations on levelling to 15 :mage: I need to pick a L6 and L7 spell for Az (who's two games from 15th). Any thoughts?
solbergb 01-04-08, 03:06 PM	Yeah, Sumadj the Bat was very excited about how he "pinpointed" an ogre mage by breathing fire on it, shook off a disintegrate and then went and grappled an enemy warmage into submission in his first use of the spell. He was hopping up and down "Best...Spell....Ever!" Olivia didn't have any good ideas for her level 6 spell so she caved in to familiar pressure.... The usual suspects for L6 are things like contingency, greater dispel, antimagic field, flesh to stone etc. For L7 reverse gravity, forcecage, greater arcane sight, bigby grasping hand, waves of exhaustion... Nothing leaps out as especially attractive for Azzie though.
copperwyrmling 01-04-08, 03:48 PM	Yeah, Sumadj the Bat was very excited about how he "pinpointed" an ogre mage by breathing fire on it, shook off a disintegrate and then went and grappled an enemy warmage into submission in his first use of the spell. He was hopping up and down "Best...Spell....Ever!" Olivia didn't have any good ideas for her level 6 spell so she caved in to familiar pressure.... The usual suspects for L6 are things like contingency, greater dispel, antimagic field, flesh to stone etc. For L7 reverse gravity, forcecage, greater arcane sight, bigby grasping hand, waves of exhaustion... Nothing leaps out as especially attractive for Azzie though. There are spells that would be perfect, but not Open ones sadly :( (Ghost Trap, Ruby Ray of Reversal... sigh) I also can retrain one spell in my current selection if needed, since I'm probably doing a spell-retrain anyway to swap Magic Missile for Benign Transposition. I'm a little worried about the lack of a way to kill mirror images, but oh well - it's never come up since I got Quickened MM, I'll just Limited Wish for True Seeing and use a belt of battle charge for my swift, if I really need to see through MIs. I'd like more divinatory powers, but Greater Prying Eyes is L8, and Greater Arcane Sight is so high-level that I won't be able to cast it very often. I'm considering Veil or Mass Suggestion for the L6 spell, just for fun factor. Irthos the Rat doesn't actually really want to be a dragon, he spends most of his time with Az cowering and squeaking in horror at the crazy things she does. That said, if she convinced him to be a dragon temporarily (Az would like a dragon familiar), it would be funny to watch what that did to his personality ;)
solbergb 01-04-08, 04:20 PM	Sumadj always had a more active role. Unlike most familiars he's out in the open exposed to area effects and Olivia used him aggressively to pinpoint enemies that were hiding or invisible. This didn't make him a target very often but he was always in harms way with no way to hit back. Well...now he can hit back. Just imagine how it must feel to be a diminuative, str1 creature and suddenly get to be size large, strength 25....
Lomiat 01-05-08, 01:13 AM	Something like Isis is going to feel when he turns into a Marut for the first time? Trollshape's been good, but ... it's no Marut. Solbergb, can you think of any other sorcerer themes that could prove viable other than Olivia's telekinesis and the standard "boom"? Just as a topic for further discussion... Ray specialist, as an example, isn't a theme, in my opinion, but a "cursing, foul-mouthed debuffer" might be.
copperwyrmling 01-05-08, 02:35 AM	There seem to be plenty of viable "themes", you just have to be careful not to confuse themes with roles (blaster, sniper, buffer, etc seem like mostly roles rather than themes, to me). I agree "ray specialist" is not a theme. Fire-mage seems like a theme, for example, and it doesn't have to mean "all my spells are direct-damage fire blasts" - pyrotechnics is an interesting save-or-be-screwed spell, featherfall / levitate can be created by heated air, fire is often associated with speed so haste etc could work, mass fireshield is an in-theme party-defence if you get access, and so on. Min has something of an earth/dust/sand theme, as she's descended from [Earth] dragons and comes from the Bright Sands. Her "Grease" is making the ground slippery and muddy, Glitterdust doesn't require any reflavoring (it's blinding people with metal dust, which is earth-based), Magic Missile is basically her version of Magic Stone. Of course, she also has the more overt draconic powers (acid breath weapon, flight, dragonskin, haste = imbuing allies and herself with the power and swiftness of dragons, darkvision next level). After what happened in the Shadowdark, though, her theme has taken an abrupt left turn into shadowmagic - Min is slightly confused atm ;) Azrien started out as dragon-themed: I was going to take acid spells to represent the copper dragon heritage, and she loved gems and underground places. Then she ran into a wild magic field at second level, and realized that magic was a lot weirder and more flexible than she'd thought, and that it LIKED her (she relinquished every save vs the field, and the GM rolled nothing but good effects). She spent a lot of time soon after that travelling with a necromancer, tried imitating some of his tricks, and found that they worked really well - around that time she also picked up the Dreaming, which fitted in well with her growing interest in blood-magic and the spirits of the dead. For most of the next eight or nine levels, her theme was just wish-fulfilment: the Magic gave her what she wanted. She'd always wanted to be able to fly, so that happened fairly quickly (Fly was her second L3 spell, gained at L7); she likes talking to people, so the Magic made her better at it (Friendly Face, Tongues). She had a horse in the mid-levels but then it died, and she was very upset - so then she learned how to summon spirit horses out of the Dreamworld (THEY don't die, at least not permanently). She swore a blood oath related to the Dreaming, and gained the ability to call forth the spirits of fallen Dreamers to defend her and strike terror into the hearts of her foes; she drew on the tentacled, whispering darkness of the Dreams - and memories of cities erupting in flame - to shape some of her nastier spells. She learned from an Ur-Flan tribe secrets to appease restless spirits, and learned to see ghosts (and incidentally, those hidden by magic). The aura of chaotic magic around her has been growing more pronounced as she grows in power, and now she can infuse her allies and their magic items with traces of her magic as well (assorted buff spells). Some of her spells are just pure wish-fulfilment: Guided Shot and Assay SR both just mean that if she asks it to, the Magic will deal with things that frustrate her, she just needs to remember to ask. Feather Fall and False Life are basically just the Magic taking care of her. She was already starting to think of herself as a creature of magic more than mortal, and then Zagyg's House told her that she was a goddess (and in reasonable circumstances, too: she'd tried to activate it blindly with UMD, and we later found lots of information in the basement on a ritual for ascension to godhood ;) ) Inspired by that and some recent visits to fey forests, I'm trying to work in more elemental/nature-oriented spells and divine-like powers: Freezing Fog was the first of those (weather control, also the silver dragon side of her heritage has become more dominant over the red lately, with the Enmity of Tiamat and assorted blessings of good dragons). Maybe she'll do Greater Scrying and Mass Suggestion - Mass Suggestion as an extension of her persuasive skills (her voice is charged with magic and you find yourself wanting to agree with her), Greater Scrying because it seems potentially rather fun to be able to look in on anyone anywhere as a standard action and talk and listen through the sensor, especially when the result lasts for hours/level ;) Control Weather and Reverse Gravity are also decent "pretending to be a deity" spells at L7, I guess. I'm also somewhat tempted by Ethereal Jaunt: it's a cute scouting spell. Once Az has her cohort, though, I can Lim-Wish a Phantom Stag which can use Etherealness (needs CL 18, which I can only do 1/3 of the time without the cohort).
Lomiat 01-05-08, 12:57 PM	It occurs to me that the "sculptor" or "tinkerer" build might be interesting: Spells to make things look more the way you want them to look. Enlarge Person, Animate Rope, Polymorph subschool spells (Trollshape, Form of the Threefold Beast, Baleful Polymorph), Transmute Rock to Mud, Transmute Mud to Rock, Stoneshape, etc. It would make an interesting gnome.
Maesto 01-05-08, 02:19 PM	A nice breakdown, Brad. I have a feeling that Olivia will be influencing my sorceror's tactics and selections ;-) And so very jealous of lesser dragonshape! I look forwards to journeying with Olivia again. As for a theme? I'm going the coward theme. I did strongly consider swift expeditious retreat and expeditious retreat as first level spells known ;-)
solbergb 01-06-08, 11:05 PM	Themes I've thought about. "Weather" gives quite a diverse selection. Fire themed does quite a bit if you mix in smoke and light effects and steal the comic book "lighter than air" flight. One I've wanted to do but probably bard is "Mistress". She talks to things and they obey. (transmutation, charm, necromancy mostly, with UMD). Eg Haste is "BE FAST" "yes....we're...fast....." Something like fabricate would also be in theme. It's probably possible to do some kind of shapeshifter sorcerer. Really anything that would make an interesting super-hero energy projector works pretty well as a sorcerer. You need offense, defense, movement and utility, maybe enhanced senses. The categories I used are how I think of arcane casters, they need a few more things than a superhero needs because team members are less self-sufficient.
MwaO 01-07-08, 12:38 AM	Something like Isis is going to feel when he turns into a Marut for the first time? Trollshape's been good, but ... it's no Marut. Solbergb, can you think of any other sorcerer themes that could prove viable other than Olivia's telekinesis and the standard "boom"? Just as a topic for further discussion... Ray specialist, as an example, isn't a theme, in my opinion, but a "cursing, foul-mouthed debuffer" might be. It really depends on how far you're willing to go to make a theme work. I've been playing around with my Sun/Light/Pelor focused Beguiler - you'd be surprised at what you can justify around a theme when you put your mind to it. I even justified the Beguiler's trapfinding ability as being Pelor shining a light only he could see on important details. Which is why he gets trapfinding - Pelor shines a light to show him how to disable the trap. If you notice, Brad called Solid Fog an Evard's that was cast not on the ground. In a sense, that's same kind of silliness - you can't just say that a particular spell looks like Y in D&D anymore than I can say Pelor showed me where a trap was(without casting a spell, spell-like ability, or doing something supernatural - obviously Pelor can make it happen, he's a God - but why Pelor would do it...) On the other hand, in the context of Brad's theme, that makes perfect sense. Why not say it works like that?
jtrain9801 01-07-08, 09:54 AM	the story for my gnome sorcerer. He was the bigger brother and guardian of his little sister therefore armed to the teeth with weapons. Due to an accident which permanently hurt his mental facilities, he took on a child like mentality so he still wanted to protect his sister ,but he wasn't smart enough anymore and his sister became his protector. He still wanted to help his sister so much so that his 'imagination' became real. She would tell him bedtime stories to help him sleep and found that if he started to 'think' real hard the creatures from the stories would become real for a short time. He would use these 'guardians' to protect his sister or people that befriended him. He still is wearing chain shirt and shield and uses many weapons for he still knows that if he hits things they go away as well. He doesn't realize that his armor interferes with his 'imagination' ,but still does his does his best to help. At the moment he is a fighter2/sor 4, with summon monster as his focus for the spell selection. He will continue along sor track for he knows that his 'imagination' is working.
solbergb 01-07-08, 03:10 PM	Yeah, Olivia has a lot of spells that make sense if you hear her explain it but only vaguely fit the "she's good at moving things or preventing movement" style of her magic. According to her, magic works better near surfaces. This is probably because most of her non-instant duration spells are based on evards tentacles or greater magic weapon and her most powerful effects from a strength standpoint fall into these spells. These include: Evards: tenser's disk (a tentacle 3' high) levitate (it goes farther from the surface but doesn't last as long) grease (little tiny tentacles that disrupt your balance) solid fog (evards without the surface) Greater Magic Weapon: false life - the "extra hitpoints" part of the enhancement bonus, only usable on herself because creatures constantly change and she can't keep up with it except on herself. ottiluke's sphere - her first attempt to put the "hardness" part of GMW on a person rather than object greater mage armor - refined version of ottiluke's sphere wall of force - GMW without a target....it comes out in a vertical wall mending and repair minor also sort of came out of her study of false life Most of her other spells are based on mage hand, open/close and unseen servant. Mage hand for the concentration or one round effects, open/close for instant bursts of force, unseen servant for "give instructions to the servants and they do stuff for hours". In Olivia's reckoning mage hand and open/close are really the same thing, just as telekenesis is just one spell. Mage Hand: swift fly guided shot whirling blade gust of wind chain mage hand telekenesis (sustained thrust or battlefield maneuver) to some extent arcane sight and analyze dwoemer came out of her ability to try to lift magic objects with mage hand and those she could not move were magic. open/close: launch item (if I'd ever gained access to it, I never did) magic missile chain mage hand cyclonic blast disintegrate Unseen servant: amanuensis (at level 16, swap for mage hand, didn't get access till almost level 15) in normal, Horde and Mass form swim (servants ordered to help you swim) phantom steed (servants built for speed and ordered to behave like a horse) aerial alacrity (trying to apply phantom steed speed to overland flight, with mixed effects) overland flight (carry me with mental direction) control weather (a butterfly effect, very subtle) Had I gone for fabricate or minor creation as I toyed with, these would have fallen under unseen servant, of the Phantom Steed variety for minor creation or control weather style for fabricate. Some tricks she learned at the same time (eg, wall of force and solid fog, both spells without their normal target/surface, were learned at level 11 as was levitate which let her push a tenser's away from a surface). Some had cause/effect....swim wasn't possible till she learned long term instructions with phantom steed, and ottilukes had to preede both wall of force and greater mage armor. Whirling blade and chain mage hand preceded telekenesis. Etc.
dkay807 01-07-08, 03:58 PM	I noticed your Ring of Enduring Arcana. Let's discuss how amazing that item is! Garfoodle's caster level for Counterspell/Dispel purposes is 20 now with that item, which is just enough to keep those pesky epic casters from counterspelling/dispelling my spells with Arcane Mastery. My elemental monoliths now require a 20th level caster to roll a 19+ to dispel!
solbergb 01-07-08, 04:05 PM	I got it right after the party had to go through a dispelling screen and most of her buffs for the party survived, much to her astonishment, because they were level 14 and the screen wasn't using a greater dispel. Olivia was used to her spells vanishing like soap bubbles in the face of dispels. Enduring arcana means a normal dispel is only going to succeed on a nat 20 and improves her odds a lot on greater dispels. Olivia sprays GMW all over the place and often mounts the entire team on phantom steeds and/or has servants floating out there as bait for area dispels. In addition a common response to her battlefield control magic is to try to dispel it. So making that harder is a good thing. It has not been tested in actual play yet though, but it seemed worth a few thousand gp and a ring slot.
dkay807 01-07-08, 05:34 PM	Mine has been battle-tested and I assure you it's worth the investment. The 24-hour cooldown is a pain but oh well. I got it right after the party had to go through a dispelling screen and most of her buffs for the party survived, much to her astonishment, because they were level 14 and the screen wasn't using a greater dispel. Olivia was used to her spells vanishing like soap bubbles in the face of dispels. Enduring arcana means a normal dispel is only going to succeed on a nat 20 and improves her odds a lot on greater dispels. Olivia sprays GMW all over the place and often mounts the entire team on phantom steeds and/or has servants floating out there as bait for area dispels. In addition a common response to her battlefield control magic is to try to dispel it. So making that harder is a good thing. It has not been tested in actual play yet though, but it seemed worth a few thousand gp and a ring slot.
Connell 02-01-08, 05:32 PM	Solbergb ... what a great article! Thanks for sharing your insights on Olivia and her successful build structure over the levels. I am curious though, why did you take Eschew Materials as a feat? And did you ever have any interesting tricks or optimization uses for it? Especially since many people find the feat to be sub-optimal in certain campaigns or in certain "DM's eyes". Thanks again!
solbergb 02-01-08, 09:10 PM	Eschew materials was a pure roleplay choice, chosen to differentiate her magic a bit from that of other people. Olivia considers the boundaries of most spells optional (which is why silent and still were important capstone feats of the build) and my vision of her didn't include mucking about with powdered peas or vials of mercury. It did, however, come in handy a couple times. I had not one, but two "infiltrate prison system without your equipment" type adventures where I appreciated it, although in the latter one I was trying so hard to sandbag the fact that she was an arcanist it only came up in the final encounter. It's possible that having no spell component pouch (something I mention in her description) has helped her when she's been in disguise, especially in the Bandit Kindoms, but her normal MO is so flashy that nobody mistakes her for anything but a spellcaster unless she's trying hard to keep a low profile. When I had a cohort for a few levels, she was from the same magical tradition and also had eschew materials, to partly reflect that. The truly irritating thing is that several of her spells use foci, which can't be done away with. She incorporates them into her jewelry or gear (a leather loop for levitate, as an example, is pretty easy to work in) - it isn't an accident that when she had a business, its "signet ring" included a brass key in the design, for example. If you can see through her hat of disguise fuzz, make the spot checks and spellcraft you might recognize some of her "bling" as spell foci. Although the analyze dwoemer gem is pretty strictly jewelry. It better be at that price!
helicopter 02-01-08, 10:04 PM	Eschew Materials is helpful for heavy practicioners of the wonderful Magic Jar spell.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-01-08, 11:10 PM	Eschew Materials is helpful for heavy practicioners of the wonderful Magic Jar spell. Except not because Eschew Materials only lets you ignore things of 1gp or less...
helicopter 02-02-08, 12:08 AM	Except not because Eschew Materials only lets you ignore things of 1gp or less...Right. But a savvy and frequent user of Magic Jar will ensure his spell selection maximizes the E.M. feats restrictions to have minimal impact on his overall schtick.