Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hariman 08-27-07, 10:08 PM	Hello again everyone. My sorcerer 3, current Charisma 15, is near level 4 (Current spells: Magic Missile, Grease, and Burning Hands. CHA will be 16 at level 4.) recently got access to the spell "Stolen Breath" (Spell Compendium) which is: Standard action casting time, no save, instantaneous, SR: Yes, and makes an enemy sickened for 10 rounds UNLESS they take a full round action to regain their breath. Creatures that do not breathe are, of course, immune. Now, I like the spell. For any enemy that breathes, they are either under the -2 penalty of being sickened OR they lose a full round action. Both ways benefit the party. BUT, I was wondering if anyone had any other ideas for a good second level spell to take as my sorcerer's first second level spell. AS A WARNING: Although False Life and Glitterdust are both good spells, I DO NOT consider them to be good as the level 4 first 2nd level spell. False Life is too "Me centric" I'd rather burn a level 2 slot on a level 1 spell and BUY a scroll of false life. And Glitterdust is unreliable. When it works it's great. But when it fails, it sucks. So don't recommend glitterdust or false life. Hariman PS: Glitterdust will come LATER, it's too good a spell to pass up. 7th or 9th level are the current candidates. Unless I decide to retrain it in at some odd point.
clannagh 08-27-07, 10:29 PM	Hello again everyone. My sorcerer 3, current Charisma 15, is near level 4 (Current spells: Magic Missile, Grease, and Burning Hands. CHA will be 16 at level 4.) recently got access to the spell "Stolen Breath" (Spell Compendium) which is: Standard action casting time, no save, instantaneous, SR: Yes, and makes an enemy sickened for 10 rounds UNLESS they take a full round action to regain their breath. Creatures that do not breathe are, of course, immune. Now, I like the spell. For any enemy that breathes, they are either under the -2 penalty of being sickened OR they lose a full round action. Both ways benefit the party. BUT, I was wondering if anyone had any other ideas for a good second level spell to take as my sorcerer's first second level spell. AS A WARNING: Although False Life and Glitterdust are both good spells, I DO NOT consider them to be good as the level 4 first 2nd level spell. False Life is too "Me centric" I'd rather burn a level 2 slot on a level 1 spell and BUY a scroll of false life. And Glitterdust is unreliable. When it works it's great. But when it fails, it sucks. So don't recommend glitterdust or false life. Hariman PS: Glitterdust will come LATER, it's too good a spell to pass up. 7th or 9th level are the current candidates. Unless I decide to retrain it in at some odd point. Good PHB spells Web is pretty hard to go beat when used effectively. its not so great out in the open but in dungeons it can be an encounter winner. Levitate is also good in dungeons, a "poor mans fly" which lets you float to teh ceiling and cast spells moving around by pushing on the ceiling. Good Core SPC spells Blast of Force up to 5d6 Force damage plus a knockback effect Ice Knife Cold damage with DEX damage Augment Familiar Does what it says. Phantasmal Assailants DEX and WIS damage
jstorrie 08-27-07, 10:39 PM	There is Scorching Ray, of course.
ShinAkuma2 08-27-07, 11:30 PM	I enjoy Ice Knife. I've had some good luck with it, even considering the times I had to say, "Roll reflex for half of...one damage...*cough*". The Dex damage, when it works, has been very helpful.
awroe 08-28-07, 04:17 AM	And Glitterdust is unreliable. When it works it's great. But when it fails, it sucks. I agree that with the stated charisma 'save or' spells are less good, but don't forget that even if Glitterdust fails, it still highlights invisible creatures - a dual use that can be handy for a Sorcerer. Web is definitely a useful spell, though there are a couple of issues with it - you get table variation about whether a burnt away square of web will spread to other squares, and it can really slow down combat. OTOH, if you have a party short on front line characters, it's a great way of stopping the NPCs approaching - I've had an encounter in which none of the enemies could get close enough to do any damage before they were killed. AW.
JamesMaissen 08-28-07, 06:32 AM	Web is definitely a useful spell, though there are a couple of issues with it AW. Web is a wonderful scroll spell. The main effect has nothing to do with the failed save and the duration is far beyond what you need for combat at min caster level. -James
mregecko 08-28-07, 11:25 AM	Ummm... Glitterdust's major use is NOT for blinding things (the only aspect for which the Save applies) It's best use is for revealing invisible objects, and PREVENTING them from going re-invisible. I can't count how many times: 1.) I cast See Invis 2.) I cast Glitterdust Has saved the party from a TPK. Now, See Invis for a sorcerer is a little bit too much of a specific application... But it's a cheap scroll. That said, Scorching Ray is also a decent bet that can be Metamagic'd out the wazoo later. -- Gecko
Maesto 08-28-07, 11:40 AM	Ooh, I can just imagine chaining stolen breath... hehehe
copper_wyrmling 08-28-07, 12:14 PM	Ummm... Glitterdust's major use is NOT for blinding things (the only aspect for which the Save applies) It's best use is for revealing invisible objects, and PREVENTING them from going re-invisible. I can't count how many times: 1.) I cast See Invis 2.) I cast Glitterdust Has saved the party from a TPK. Now, See Invis for a sorcerer is a little bit too much of a specific application... But it's a cheap scroll. That said, Scorching Ray is also a decent bet that can be Metamagic'd out the wazoo later. -- Gecko Glitterdust is also good for dealing with creatures with hide in plain sight abilities who keep vanishing on you - invis purge and see invis don't help there, but -40 to Hide checks sure does (not that I'm paranoid or anything, but I did watch my L5 sorcerer almost get slaughtered by sneak-attacking spiked-chain-wielding hiding-in-plain-sight shadow elves in a recent APL 6 mod - and she HAS glitterdust, it would've been much worse otherwise). I like See Invis as a L11 spell pick - at that stage, you can keep it up all day, and that's been more useful than I anticipated with my L13 sorc. Unless you have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and high Dex, I would not pick Scorching Ray at this level. My first sorc had all of the above, and took Scorching Ray and found it very effective, but I've tried the occasional ranged touch attack with my second sorc who doesn't have the feats and it's amazing how much of a difference it makes. My currently-L5 sorc took Swift Fly first and that was a lot of fun, but she had Draconic Breath so she already had a L2 damage option. Swift Fly is great for setting up spells like Burning Hands, for defence (few monsters can fly at APL 4-6), and for utility (my Str-6 gnome sorc was very tired of being asked to make Climb, Jump and Swim checks) but may be too "me-centric" for you. It also burns out your L2 slots very quickly. Invisibility is another option, although maybe not a good one at this level: it's best when you have enough spell slots to drop it on multiple party members. I would not advise taking a purely self-defensive spell like Mirror Image. Stolen Breath doesn't seem like a bad pick - if you like the spell, I'd say go for it. For comparison, my L13 sorc took Scorching Ray, False Life, Glitterdust, Invisibility, and See Invisibility as her L2 spells (in that order iirc), my currently-L5 sorc has Swift Fly and Glitterdust and will pick up Resist Energy and Darkvision next if I remember her build plan correctly (she has a desert-dragon theme - flight, darkvision, energy resistance and whipping up blinding dust clouds are all appropriate powers for her). Do you have any metamagic feats yet? Do you have any metamagic planned? As Maesto said, Chain Spell should go nicely with Stolen Breath (I'm assuming it's targeted).
Hariman 08-28-07, 10:54 PM	Glitterdust is also good for dealing with creatures with hide in plain sight abilities who keep vanishing on you - invis purge and see invis don't help there, but -40 to Hide checks sure does (not that I'm paranoid or anything, but I did watch my L5 sorcerer almost get slaughtered by sneak-attacking spiked-chain-wielding hiding-in-plain-sight shadow elves in a recent APL 6 mod - and she HAS glitterdust, it would've been much worse otherwise). I like See Invis as a L11 spell pick - at that stage, you can keep it up all day, and that's been more useful than I anticipated with my L13 sorc. Unless you have Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and high Dex, I would not pick Scorching Ray at this level. My first sorc had all of the above, and took Scorching Ray and found it very effective, but I've tried the occasional ranged touch attack with my second sorc who doesn't have the feats and it's amazing how much of a difference it makes. My currently-L5 sorc took Swift Fly first and that was a lot of fun, but she had Draconic Breath so she already had a L2 damage option. Swift Fly is great for setting up spells like Burning Hands, for defence (few monsters can fly at APL 4-6), and for utility (my Str-6 gnome sorc was very tired of being asked to make Climb, Jump and Swim checks) but may be too "me-centric" for you. It also burns out your L2 slots very quickly. Invisibility is another option, although maybe not a good one at this level: it's best when you have enough spell slots to drop it on multiple party members. I would not advise taking a purely self-defensive spell like Mirror Image. Stolen Breath doesn't seem like a bad pick - if you like the spell, I'd say go for it. For comparison, my L13 sorc took Scorching Ray, False Life, Glitterdust, Invisibility, and See Invisibility as her L2 spells (in that order iirc), my currently-L5 sorc has Swift Fly and Glitterdust and will pick up Resist Energy and Darkvision next if I remember her build plan correctly (she has a desert-dragon theme - flight, darkvision, energy resistance and whipping up blinding dust clouds are all appropriate powers for her). Do you have any metamagic feats yet? Do you have any metamagic planned? As Maesto said, Chain Spell should go nicely with Stolen Breath (I'm assuming it's targeted). I never said I wasn't going to give this guy glitterdust. I'm just not picking Glitterdust first. And that is another good reason to have glitterdust. Stolen Breath is Targeted and PERFECT for Chaining. (No save = No save DC reduction!) So I think I'll get Chain spell by the time I can cast 5th level spells. (If the character makes it that far.) Either that, or chain spell and metamagic school focus necromancy, although that would force me to take more necromancy spells. Which wouldn't be a bad thing. This sorcerer put on a certain ring which permanently removes 2HP in return for adding +1 caster level to necromancy spells. And I think he'd like having something to show for losing those 2 hp. Scorching Ray is a no. This character doesn't have Point Blank and Precise Shot. I have another character that sometimes misses Ranged Touch Attacks even with both. Invisibility is a maybe. It's useful, but I've seen it backfire. Some enemies are set up to Glitterdust enemies who go invisible. It's a killer if everyone is close enough together and bombs the will save. (It was a near TPK, only a timestop favor saved the party.) Mirror Image is a no. It's far too "Me" and is very bad as a first level 2 spell. Currently my character has: Skill Focus Concentration Eschew Materials Still Spell Skill Focus Concentration is a keeper. It's already been very useful. BUT, Eschew Materials and Still Spell are ones I've been reconsidering. The thoughts I've had are: Retrain into Draconic Heritage or Infernal Heritage and gain an attack option that way. OR, retrain Eschew and Still into more useful and less situational metamagic feats. And see if there's a second level spell that can be Sculpted. And carry extra material component pouches. There's also the option of Skill Focus Necromancy and Metamagic School Focus, but that limits what my sorcerer can do with those feats, so I don't think it's THAT much better than the other options. At least, not without careful planning.
jstorrie 08-28-07, 11:32 PM	Skill Focus Concentration is fairly nice in the low levels, but expect to want to train out of it once you're at the point where you always make your Concentration checks in the mid-levels. Infernal Sorceror Howl is absolutely great for sorcerors, and I'd strongly consider it. If you're going that route, Summon Monster II is an option. MMSF:Necro is pretty nice, but keep in mind that you won't really see that combo come together properly until around level 6. There are a lot of great Necromancy spells to chain, though, and once you got MMSF Split Ray Enervation at 9 you'd be a beast.
JamesMaissen 08-28-07, 11:58 PM	Skill Focus Concentration is a keeper. It's already been very useful. There's a feat from Races of Stone that you can take at 6th level that allows you to always 'take 10' on Concentration checks. I think that this would obviate your need for skill focus concentration.. even if you look to pick up mobile spell caster (which for a sorcerer is rough from the metamagic time cost). -James
Hariman 08-29-07, 12:12 AM	There's a feat from Races of Stone that you can take at 6th level that allows you to always 'take 10' on Concentration checks. I think that this would obviate your need for skill focus concentration.. even if you look to pick up mobile spell caster (which for a sorcerer is rough from the metamagic time cost). -James Steady Concentration is a good feat. And Mobile Spellcasting is too. Although Mobile Spellcaster would be better for my rogue/wizard. (If he could spare the feats.) The main problem with Metamagic School Focus is that it selects ONE school of magic. Although, admittedly, Necromancy is a great school for chaining spells.
ToddMorgan 08-29-07, 11:15 AM	I love playing Sorcerers for some reason, and both the Draconic Heritage chain and the Infernal Heritage chain are both fun to play (cones of sonic damage, lines of acid, it freaks new compatriots out!). The IH chain is much shorter so you can add metamagic feats as well. Although your sorcerer looks pretty sneaky (eschew mat + still spell), so why not go Silent Spell and basically just look at an enemy to blast him. "Oh, where did that Web come from? I don't know!"
Demoyn 08-29-07, 01:32 PM	Where does infernal howl come from? I don't remember seeing that feat in the PHBII.
ToddMorgan 08-29-07, 02:24 PM	It's Infernal Sorcerer Howl. Changes a spell level to 2d6/spell level sonic damage (just like Draconic Breath)
JamesMaissen 08-29-07, 03:28 PM	It's Infernal Sorcerer Howl. Changes a spell level to 2d6/spell level sonic damage (just like Draconic Breath) A little better in that you only hit 'enemies' so you don't need a clear line or cone as with a breath weapon. It also hits a bigger area. -James
ToddMorgan 08-29-07, 03:46 PM	Also very few things are immune to sonic so you could have a very comedic emo/angsty sorcerer who just screams all the time around creatures that are immune to your other spell types...
Hariman 08-29-07, 06:00 PM	Also very few things are immune to sonic so you could have a very comedic emo/angsty sorcerer who just screams all the time around creatures that are immune to your other spell types... Actually, the character is billed as a gambler (he's going for fatespinner), but that WOULD be hilarious. Currently, his introduction is: "You see before you a pale white sorcerer with pale white hair.". I'd probably change his hair color to a fiery red if I gave him Infernal Heritage. And the Howl only affecting "opponents" is great. Also, Infernal Eyes is pretty cool too. Spend a level one slot to ignore all darkness and see in darkness better than dwarves can! On a different note: Making this guy stealthy was not the original intent.
solbergb 08-30-07, 04:55 PM	Also very few things are immune to sonic so you could have a very comedic emo/angsty sorcerer who just screams all the time around creatures that are immune to your other spell types... We had someone like this in a recent game, a Bakluni sorceress (a game that also featured not one, not two but THREE gnome arcanists. OK, one was a co-opted NPC. But still... Good thing the guy with the gnome-bane weapon failed to show up to the table...) And yeah, her schtick was that she was normally a pretty calm and professional person but when she panicked she did a really annoying ear-piercing scream.....
ToddMorgan 08-30-07, 05:47 PM	My secondary character is a Human Sorcerer that is going both Draconic and Infernal Heritage routes, Dragonheart Mage to get those feats and then hopefully acquiring a Pseudodragon later on. He basically just screams and breathes when he doesn't need his battlefield control spells.