Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rerednaw 09-17-07, 04:39 PM	I'm taking a stab at an archer build. Wood Elf Str 16 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10 Level-ClassLvl/Obtain/Feats 01-Barb1 - Rage/Extra Rage 02-Rgr1 - Wild Empathy, Track, Favored Enemy (?) 03-Rgr2 - Combat Style: Archery (Rapid Shot)/Point Blank Shot 04-Ftr1 - /Precise Shot 05-Rgr3 - Endurance/ 06-WR1 - Fast Movement, Trackless Step 07-WR2 - Frenzy, Scent 08-Ftr2 - Feat (fighter bonus feat)? 09-Ftr3 - Feat 10-Ftr4 - WS: Bow 11-Ftr5 - Empty level. 12-Ftr6 - Improved Precise Shot, WM: Ranged, Piercing. Pros: Scent, Frenzy+Rage 3/day. Cons: Delayed gaining Weap. Spec., Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot and WM: Ranged, minimal ranger abilities. Any advice welcome please! Thanks in advance.
Reylance 09-17-07, 05:13 PM	You might consider taking the ranger level first. You'll need two modules to get the cash for your masterwork strength bow anyways. You might also consider moving the fighter level to third, to get Precise Shot earlier. The build looks fine. Other than considering you won't get to high levels before the campaign ends, you'll do very respectable damage with a +5 Strength bow.
Howie23 09-17-07, 06:40 PM	Any advice welcome please! Weapon Focus (longbow) is a prereq for WS (longbow). Consider a 12 wisdom and another level of ranger for arrowmind.
Swiftbrook 09-17-07, 07:17 PM	If you're planning to Rapid Shot, consider Improved Rapid Shot. Removes the -2 TH penalty. Essentially, a +2 TH when you Rapid Shot. -Swiftbrook.
solbergb 09-17-07, 07:28 PM	you need multishot for improved rapid shot. Which is why your ranger6 builds tend to take it and nobody else does. He could take those as his L8 and 9 feats. Me, I'd do quickdraw and woodland archer, as the former means you get more full attacks (and thus don't really need multishot) and the latter helps with high AC's AND with concealment. Oh and yeah, he needs weapon focus somewhere. So he's really only got one feat free. Quickdraw or woodland archer or multishot, depending on how he plays. Assuming of course that he'll actually get to level 10.
clannagh 09-17-07, 09:06 PM	It seems your not too worried about taking an XP/gold penalty for multiclassing (you already have 20% penalty from the barbarian level) if that is the case consider bumping WIS to 11 and dropping two of the fighter levels and replacing them with: Ranger 4. (Spells and animal companion) Cleric 1. Solonor Thelendra (War and Celerity) That wil give you the ranger spell compendium spells plus weapon focus longbow for free, 40' movement and freedom of movement once per day.
Mommy was an Orc 09-17-07, 10:00 PM	I'm taking a stab at an archer build. Wood Elf Str 16 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 10 06-WR1 - Fast Movement, Trackless Step 07-WR2 - Frenzy, Scent A nice trick for Wildrunner is to carry along a Cloak of Charisma +2 - at 7th level, it ought not to be too expensive. Wear whatever cloak you use normally, but as soon as you've used up 2 uses of Frenzy, you swap out. That gets you the extra points for a 12 Wisdom(and my Rogue Archer's starting stats exactly)
Howie23 09-17-07, 10:43 PM	It seems your not too worried about taking an XP/gold penalty for multiclassing (you already have 20% penalty from the barbarian level) if that is the case consider bumping WIS to 11 and dropping two of the fighter levels and replacing them with: Ranger 4. (Spells and animal companion) Cleric 1. Solonor Thelendra (War and Celerity) That wil give you the ranger spell compendium spells plus weapon focus longbow for free, 40' movement and freedom of movement once per day. Wisdom of 11 works for cleric 1, but wisdom of 11 means no ranger spells at ranger 4...you need wisdom 12 for the bonus spell.
Timlagor 09-18-07, 02:40 AM	Is Endurance required for Wildrunner? (if not drop Ranger 3) - you might drop Ranger 3 anyway and take it as a Fighter Feat -netting you Improved Precise at 11th behind RWM and Spec at 9th. The lack of Woodland Archer will be somewhat painful coming up to 11th and Manyshot and Quickdraw would both be nice but the +6Dex from Screaming and RWM at 9th will help a lot. I'd move Barb down to 3rd (behind ranger 2) but you could also melee for the first couple of levels which is probably a good idea anyway with Precise Shot not coming until 4th. I would swap the Str and Dex, Bump Str at 4th and then Dex at 8th and 12th.
Rerednaw 09-18-07, 01:53 PM	Thanks for the help so far. I'm taking a stab at an archer build. Wood Elf Str 16 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 8 Level-ClassLvl/Obtain/Feats 01-Barb1 - Rage/Extra Rage 02-Rgr1 - Wild Empathy, Track, Favored Enemy (?) 03-Rgr2 - Combat Style: Archery (Rapid Shot)/Point Blank Shot 04-Ftr1 - /Precise Shot 05-Rgr3 - Endurance/ 06-WR1 - Fast Movement, Trackless Step 07-WR2 - Frenzy, Scent 08-Ftr2 - WF: Bow 09-Ftr3 - Woodland Archer 10-Ftr4 - WS: Bow 11-Ftr5 - Empty level. 12-Ftr6 - Improved Precise Shot, WM: Ranged, Piercing. Pros: Scent, Frenzy+Rage 3/day. Cons: Delayed gaining Weap. Spec., Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot and WM: Ranged, minimal ranger abilities. Any advice welcome please! Thanks in advance. Okay thanks for all the advice. Now to address the posts: If I sub in another level of anything, then I lose WM or Improved Precise Shot. Is the trade off really worth it? I know many people praise Arrow Mind...is it worth giving up IPS or WM? Rgr3 was for Endurance...which is a Wildrunner Pre-req. Brb1 was because you don't have enough gold to start with a decent bow, so I figured sling plus str bonus + rage 3/day was better. Not to mention the 4 extra hit points. With a 12 con, every bit helps. I am not sure how to deal with the xp penalty that kicks in at 9th. I could drop barbarian entirely...give up the rage, saves, fast movement and such. It would move up the WS and WM to level 9. And IPS would still be 12 though. Decisions, decisions...
JamesMaissen 09-18-07, 02:01 PM	Is Endurance required for Wildrunner? (if not drop Ranger 3) - you might drop Ranger 3 anyway and take it as a Fighter Feat -netting you Improved Precise at 11th behind RWM and Spec at 9th. The lack of Woodland Archer will be somewhat painful coming up to 11th and Manyshot and Quickdraw would both be nice but the +6Dex from Screaming and RWM at 9th will help a lot. Endurance is required. What is the appeal to Manyshot? It seems far too over-limited to me to be a feat when archers get so many other wonderful choices. Get it for free if you are committed to Ranger6+ but otherwise let it pass. -James
jhorred 09-18-07, 04:19 PM	Thanks for the help so far. Okay thanks for all the advice. Now to address the posts: If I sub in another level of anything, then I lose WM or Improved Precise Shot. Is the trade off really worth it? I know many people praise Arrow Mind...is it worth giving up IPS or WM? Rgr3 was for Endurance...which is a Wildrunner Pre-req. Brb1 was because you don't have enough gold to start with a decent bow, so I figured sling plus str bonus + rage 3/day was better. Not to mention the 4 extra hit points. With a 12 con, every bit helps. I am not sure how to deal with the xp penalty that kicks in at 9th. I could drop barbarian entirely...give up the rage, saves, fast movement and such. It would move up the WS and WM to level 9. And IPS would still be 12 though. Decisions, decisions... I wasn't going to say anything about it*, but since you mentioned it, I'd drop the level of barb. I don't think it's worth the XP hit, especially if you're taking it mainly because you can't afford a nice bow at low levels. Granted you'd be giving up a few HP and some movement, but after rapid shot or BAB +6/+1 you'll probably be wanting to full attack anyway, so I don't think you'll miss them. I don't see how you'd lose anything save wise, but the lack of the str bonus from rage would be the most noticable loss, especially at lower levels. *[Taking a level of barb for an archer rubs me the wrong way. I find the image of this raging "madman" standing there and firing a bow to be kinda humorous when the expectation would be to see the same fellow charging across the battlefield with an axe. I guess it's a stereotype.]
solbergb 09-18-07, 07:25 PM	Brb1 was because you don't have enough gold to start with a decent bow, so I figured sling plus str bonus + rage 3/day was better. Not to mention the 4 extra hit points. With a 12 con, every bit helps. Slings are free, so that's ok for long ranged combat but they are way too awkward to use most of the time. The move action to reload is killer. Javelins are what smart archers use until they have a str bow. 30' range is enough for a lot, you get point blank shot to-hit and damage bonuses and being able to move and throw means that 30' range is really 60' before the first -2 a lot of the time. Plus you can use a shield with it, which helps with the survivability a bit. Until you have rapid shot, there really isn't any need for a bow unless in your region the APL1-2 modules have lots of long range combat. as for spells...the killer app for me is guided shot. I use that in nearly every fight. Arrow mind is a rare emergency thing.
solbergb 09-18-07, 07:28 PM	Brb1 was because you don't have enough gold to start with a decent bow, so I figured sling plus str bonus + rage 3/day was better. Not to mention the 4 extra hit points. With a 12 con, every bit helps. Slings are free, so that's ok for long ranged combat but they are way too awkward to use most of the time. The move action to reload is killer. Javelins are what smart archers use until they have a str bow. 30' range is enough for a lot, you get point blank shot to-hit and damage bonuses and being able to move and throw means that 30' range is really 60' before the first -2 a lot of the time. Plus you can use a shield with it, which helps with the survivability a bit. Until you have rapid shot, there really isn't any need for a bow unless in your region the APL1-2 modules have lots of long range combat. I agree with the others that the barb level, nice as rage and fast movement are, is a mistake in a campaign with limited lifespan. You don't want xp penalties to slow your advancement (or if you do, you should end your build at level 10, or even level 6-8). Given that you're doing a late-blooming build, I have to assume advancing quickly is a priority. (a barb build on an archer ending at level 5 is a great idea. It's all about how big a javelin/str bow str bonus you can get and xp penalties aren't likely....a typical build would be barb1/ranger2/fighter2)
clannagh 09-18-07, 10:21 PM	this avoids XP penalty .. Wood Elf Str 16 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10 Level-ClassLvl/Obtain/Feats 01-Barb1 - Rage/Extra Rage 02-Rgr1 - Wild Empathy, Track, Favored Enemy (?) 03-Rgr2 - Combat Style: Archery (Rapid Shot)/Point Blank Shot 04-Ftr1 - /Precise Shot +1 DEX 05-Rgr3 - Endurance/ 06-WR1 - Fast Movement, Trackless Step 07-WR2 - Frenzy, Scent 08-Cleric 1. Solonor Thelendra (War and Celerity) WF LB, +1 DEX 09-Ranger 4 (spells and companian) weapon specialisation LB 10- Ranger 5 11- Ranger 6 manyshot 12- Ftr2 - (RWM piercing) improved precise shot
_metz_ 09-19-07, 12:48 AM	I am more of a Fan of this build, it also has no XP penalty... Wood Elf: Str: 16 Dex: 16 (8 and 12 stat bump into this) Con: 13 (level 4 stat bump into this) Int: 10 Wis: 12 (Pious templar spells?) Cha: 8 Ranger1: Track, Point Blank Shot Ranger2: Rapid Shot Fighter1: Weapon Focus: (Comp Longbow) Precise Shot (retrain your level 3 feat WF: Composite Longbow -> True Believer) Level 4: Fighter 2: FEAT WF; Composite Longbow Level 5: Barbarian 1: Level 6: Pious Templar 1: FEAT Extra Rage Level 7: Pious Templar 2 Level 8: Pious Templar 3: BONUS FEAT WS: Composite Longbow Level 9: Ranger 3: BONUS FEAT Endurance, FEAT Ranged Weapon Mastery(Piercing) Level 10: Wildrunner 1 Level 11: Wildrunner 2 Level 12: Pious Templar 4: BONUS FEAT Manyshot FEAT Improved Precise Shot Level 13: Wildrunner 3 Level 14: Wildrunner 4 Level 15: Wildrunner 5 Improved Rapid Shot This build grows consistently in strength the whole time, and eventually is one hell of a monster in terms of ranged nastiness. Another option is to dump Int, Wisdom, or even Con (would be wary of this, but a possibility) and have stats like this: (this one is for producing damage) Str: 18 (8 and 12 stat bump into this) Dex: 17 (Level 4 stat bump here) Con: 12 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 In this build you can use a +5 Bow all the time basically, and eventually when raging have a +10 bow... (in theory) Thats a lot of Damage on each shot... You can play around with the stats as you see fit, but remember, strength is REALLY important, and probably more so than dex, especially with Wild Runner levels and full BAB...
Timlagor 09-19-07, 10:42 AM	Ranged Weapon Mastery does seem essential. The atraction of Manyshot it for Surprise Rounds and those times when you simply have to move. It's not something you're likely to use in every combat but youa re likely to use it in every module. I do agree that it's not required but it most definitely is useful. You definitely want the Javelins but it would be remiss not to carry a sling just in case.
Rerednaw 09-19-07, 11:54 AM	Sorry don't have all my books with me. To address the no XP penalty builds. How did you get weapon specialization (requires ftr4)? Or that they grant weapon specialization as a class feature? I'm guessing Pious Templar may (or their levels qualify as ftr levels, not so sure about the other builds.) If that's cool I can make some changes.
kenobi65 09-19-07, 12:24 PM	I take it that Pious Templar and Wild Runner are treated as fighter levels for weapon specialization (requires ftr4)? Or that they grant weapon specialization as a class feature? Pious Templar grants WS as a bonus feat. Not sure about Wild Runner.
_metz_ 09-19-07, 02:58 PM	Sorry don't have all my books with me. To address the no XP penalty builds. How did you get weapon specialization (requires ftr4)? Or that they grant weapon specialization as a class feature? I'm guessing Pious Templar may (or their levels qualify as ftr levels, not so sure about the other builds.) If that's cool I can make some changes. Pious Templar grants it to you. Thats why I personally prefer my Build, no loss of BAB, and you get all the right feats, at the right time. Not only does it give you 2 feats over 4 levels, but also mettle, spells, and smite. That for the investment of 1 feat. I know I would train 1 feat away for avoiding an XP penalty and get mettle in exchange any DAY. (besides after Fighter 2 you only get 2 feats for 4 levels anyways!) You also need the weapon focus, but all self respecting archers have that... By utilising the favoured class, and only having 2 fighter and 1 barbarian, you avoid the xp penalty altogether. Once you read up on wild runner, you will realise why thats so good...
_metz_ 09-19-07, 03:01 PM	this avoids XP penalty .. Wood Elf Str 16 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10 Level-ClassLvl/Obtain/Feats 01-Barb1 - Rage/Extra Rage 02-Rgr1 - Wild Empathy, Track, Favored Enemy (?) 03-Rgr2 - Combat Style: Archery (Rapid Shot)/Point Blank Shot 04-Ftr1 - /Precise Shot +1 DEX 05-Rgr3 - Endurance/ 06-WR1 - Fast Movement, Trackless Step 07-WR2 - Frenzy, Scent 08-Cleric 1. Solonor Thelendra (War and Celerity) WF LB, +1 DEX 09-Ranger 4 (spells and companian) weapon specialisation LB 10- Ranger 5 11- Ranger 6 manyshot 12- Ftr2 - (RWM piercing) improved precise shot This build is illegal. The highlighted feat is unable to be taken. Needs Fighter 4 or Pious Templar 3, or some other PrC that may give it.
Rerednaw 09-19-07, 04:31 PM	Pious Templar grants it to you. ...By utilising the favoured class, and only having 2 fighter and 1 barbarian, you avoid the xp penalty altogether. Once you read up on wild runner, you will realise why thats so good... I like it. I had to make a change because my wood elf has just started playing, but aside from swapping the barb level around and retraining it's identical. One quick question...do you have to have a specific diety? If so, which one? Or is there an appropriate list? (In case of diety-specific pre-reqs and such.) Cheers and thanks.
clannagh 09-19-07, 07:28 PM	I like it. I had to make a change because my wood elf has just started playing, but aside from swapping the barb level around and retraining it's identical. One quick question...do you have to have a specific diety? If so, which one? Or is there an appropriate list? (In case of diety-specific pre-reqs and such.) Cheers and thanks. I presume he has in mind deities such as Ehlonna, Gadhelyn, Solonor Thelendra or Phaulkon all of which have longbow (m) as favored weapons.
_metz_ 09-20-07, 12:40 AM	For the purposes of favoured weapon, any deity with Longbow (m) will suffice. (A composite Longbow specifically counts as a longbow for this purpose.) Clannagh posted the suitable Deities. I personally like Gadhelyn, as he is a Wild Elf Archer hero God (CN) But that part is up to you, just remember that as a Pious Templar, Clerical restrictions on Alignment will apply to you.
magebeast 09-20-07, 12:52 AM	But that part is up to you, just remember that as a Pious Templar, Clerical restrictions on Alignment will apply to you. More than that, the feat True Believer requires you to share alignments with your diety.
jstorrie 09-20-07, 03:15 AM	True Believer just requires you be within one step.
_metz_ 09-20-07, 03:42 AM	True Believer just requires you be within one step. Exactly, so with Pious Templar, you can't be N unless the deity is N, etc, so there are more restrictions than just the True believer Feat.
jstorrie 09-20-07, 07:21 PM	Personally, I prefer Bard to Barbarian for fleshing out the prefix in archer builds. Having to purchase a second bow for raging purposes is a pain, and bardsong over the party trumps rage on an individual. Maybe it's time to start considering Arcane Archer again? Fighter 4 / Bard 3 as an AA prefix already packs Weapon Spec, bardsong +2 (from Inspirational Boost) and the prereq for Ranged Weapon Mastery. Running up to Bard 4 for more skills and 2nd-level spells and then going to AA7 makes for a very versatile archer, and you're looking for damage totals around the same as those of a Wildrunner build. Imbued Grease arrows are still pretty decent at any level, and Seeker and Phase Arrow are nice tricks.
_metz_ 09-21-07, 02:31 AM	Yeah but you can always do more damage and at the same time be more flexible as a caster. Its not really an archer build then though, I guess its up to the OP.