Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dkay807 05-29-07, 11:12 PM	Halfling Divine Prankster of Brandobaris Domains: Luck and Trickery Str 6 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 16 *Note: This build works equally well as a Gnome of Olidammara with 10 dex and 16 con, or as a Human of Olidammara with a 12 int, 8 str and 12 dex. **Note: A 15 Charisma to start is certainly an option - especially since he only gets 3 bumps in his career. +1 stat books are out there though, and this character won't need many other items apart from some ability boosters, a resistance item (he'd want a gal-ralan or an ioun stone of resistance if possible), maybe a vest of legends and a circlet of persuasion. 1 - Bard 1 - Skill Focus (perform) 2 - Cleric 1 - 3 - Cleric 2 - Melodic Casting 4 - Cleric 3 - +1 Charisma 5 - Bard 2 - 6 - Divine Prankster 1 - Extra Music 7 - Divine Prankster 2 8 - Divine Prankster 3 - +1 Charisma 9 - Divine Prankster 4 - Mobile Spellcasting 10 - Divine Prankster 5 - (enrage enemies!!!) 11- Sublime Chord 1 12 - Divine Prankster 6 - Practiced Spellcaster (sublime chord), +1 Charisma 13 - Sublime Chord 2 14 - Divine Prankster 7 15 - Divine Prankster 8 - Improved Initiative *Note: DP 1-5 bumps your Bard caster level. DP 6-8 bumps your Sublime Chord caster level. Practiced Spellcaster cannot be taken until the PC is a Sublime Chord because, contrary to popular belief, boosting the Bard caster level will not affect the Sublime Chord caster level! The beauty of this build is the Sublime Chord spell progression and the synergy between the various abilities and feats providing you with the ability to take many actions in a round. Using spells such as Harmonize, you can use bardic music abilities (or comedic performance) as a move action, and cast your spells AND move as a standard action. With melodic casting, you can maintain your concentration on bardic music abilities while casting spells and moving, and you can use your insane perform check bonus on the tough concentration checks without having to dump many skill points into concentration (just 8 for the prerequisite). A common tactic will be to use the Enrage Enemies ability to force all opponents to focus on you with melee attacks and then to cast an Otiluke's Resilient Sphere in the same round to protect yourself. This will end any encounter that does not involve creatures immune to mind-affecting abilities. Additionally, if you get access to Illusory Pit... the Infuse Figment ability will enable you to cast Illusory Pits that are DC 35 or so. This too will end combats. While the skill prerequisites are brutal (thus the higher than optimal intelligence), the character will have some strong skills AND will be able to create an inspire courage +3 by 12th level. Lastly, with Hymn of Praise and Harmonic Chorus, he will be able to buff the caster level of the party cleric for some insane buffs. Extra Music at 6th is for additional uses of the +4 Arcane Caster level bump from Sublime Chord at 13th. One option is to take a different feat and retrain into Extra Music at 13. AC is irrelevant in this build. Comments, thoughts, suggestions for improvement?
_metz_ 05-29-07, 11:43 PM	Thought you had to be a gnome to be a divine prankster. Has LG relaxed this requirement?
Crazy Boro 05-29-07, 11:45 PM	Thought you had to be a gnome to be a divine prankster. Has LG relaxed this requirement? LG deities document gives some other options for deities and races for divine prankster.
Mommy was an Orc 05-30-07, 10:17 AM	At 8th level, you're casting 2 sets of 2nd level spells instead of 1 set of 4th level spells and being the party trapfinder. You've qualified yourself to enter Mystic Theurge(or with Druid levels Arcane Hierophant) at 8th and are giving that up for Enrage Enemies and Bardsong +2 at 12th. I just don't see how that works out for you. And can you imagine playing this character up to an APL 10 table at 9th?
magebeast 05-30-07, 11:44 AM	It's unfortunate, but Sublime Chord levels specifically stack with your Bard Level for caster levels. Not your Bard Caster Level.
dkay807 05-30-07, 05:31 PM	It's unfortunate, but Sublime Chord levels specifically stack with your Bard Level for caster levels. Not your Bard Caster Level. I am aware. This is why you take the -3 caster level hit at 11th level and get it back with Practiced Spellcaster at 12th.
dkay807 05-30-07, 05:33 PM	At 8th level, you're casting 2 sets of 2nd level spells instead of 1 set of 4th level spells and being the party trapfinder. You've qualified yourself to enter Mystic Theurge(or with Druid levels Arcane Hierophant) at 8th and are giving that up for Enrage Enemies and Bardsong +2 at 12th. I just don't see how that works out for you. And can you imagine playing this character up to an APL 10 table at 9th? These are good points... the class is definitely lacking at lower levels. Once you hit 11th level, you have more than made up for it but unfortunately, you have to make it through the lower levels first. I would say that you're more than okay until APL 8 and 10... this is where you'll really start feeling the burn, and you'll have to use Bardic Music and various low-level support spells combined with decent other skills to make up for it. Lastly, and probably most importantly, I actually came up with this build for a 10th level Gnome PC who has a rebuild. So maybe take two perspectives: One as a new PC starting out, and one as a 10th level PC (almost 11th) rebuilding into this.
Mommy was an Orc 05-30-07, 08:44 PM	These are good points... the class is definitely lacking at lower levels. Once you hit 11th level, you have more than made up for it but unfortunately, you have to make it through the lower levels first. I would say that you're more than okay until APL 8 and 10... this is where you'll really start feeling the burn, and you'll have to use Bardic Music and various low-level support spells combined with decent other skills to make up for it. Lastly, and probably most importantly, I actually came up with this build for a 10th level Gnome PC who has a rebuild. So maybe take two perspectives: One as a new PC starting out, and one as a 10th level PC (almost 11th) rebuilding into this. I dunno - it just doesn't seem worth it to me to just not go Rogue 1/Cleric 4/Divine Prankster 10 or Bard 4/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant 3/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Hierophant 4-6. Also, builds that can't really exist except in rebuilds are the kinds of things that get rebuilds taken away
amnuxoll 05-31-07, 01:35 PM	I pawed through this build this morning and found I like it. I've always envisioned divine pranksters working feverishly to boost their AC but this build (and the use of Otiluke's) makes that moot and gives some nifty character to the build as well. :AMN:
Mommy was an Orc 05-31-07, 03:23 PM	I pawed through this build this morning and found I like it. I've always envisioned divine pranksters working feverishly to boost their AC but this build (and the use of Otiluke's) makes that moot and gives some nifty character to the build as well. :AMN: I don't see how Otiluke's really helps the build - nothing passes inside or out - and the force is 'shimmering' compared to Wall of Force's 'invisible' i.e. light/sound don't pass inside or out of the sphere, so your target can't see or hear you. Meaning the effect drops.
dkay807 05-31-07, 07:21 PM	I don't see how Otiluke's really helps the build - nothing passes inside or out - and the force is 'shimmering' compared to Wall of Force's 'invisible' i.e. light/sound don't pass inside or out of the sphere, so your target can't see or hear you. Meaning the effect drops. That's an assumption that you probably shouldn't make. "Nothing passes inside our out" is too vague to determine that creatures outside of an otiluke's cannot see creatures inside of an otiluke's - it's a force effect and "shimmering" does not infer "opaque." I couldn't imagine ANYONE that would read that spell description and determine that an otiluke's resilient sphere was opaque. D&D isn't physics - the phrase "nothing passes inside or out" does not include light or it would state that the creature could not see inside of the sphere, or that the sphere was opaque. The laws of physics don't apply in D&D.
Mommy was an Orc 05-31-07, 07:36 PM	That's an assumption that you probably shouldn't make. "Nothing passes inside our out" is too vague to determine that creatures outside of an otiluke's cannot see creatures inside of an otiluke's - it's a force effect and "shimmering" does not infer "opaque." All force effects are transparent, whether they shimmer or not. Where does it say that all force effects are transparent? Leomund's Tiny Hut is opaque from the outside, Bigby's Hand spells are disembodied hands, etc... Nothing passes inside or out, regardless of interpretation, should block a supernatural effect from passing through.
dkay807 05-31-07, 08:09 PM	Where does it say that all force effects are transparent? Leomund's Tiny Hut is opaque from the outside, Bigby's Hand spells are disembodied hands, etc... Nothing passes inside or out, regardless of interpretation, should block a supernatural effect from passing through. Unless the effect requires LINE OF SIGHT not LINE OF EFFECT to work. I actually edited out the line regarding all force effects being transpart, as I had nothing to back that up. However, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere would say that it was opaque if it was. Enrage Enemies is clear that it works as long as the targets can see or hear you. There is no reason to infer that you cannot see inside of an otiluke's Resilient sphere as it does not state that it is opaque, like every other effect that is opaque.
Mommy was an Orc 05-31-07, 08:58 PM	Unless the effect requires LINE OF SIGHT not LINE OF EFFECT to work. I actually edited out the line regarding all force effects being transpart, as I had nothing to back that up. However, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere would say that it was opaque if it was. Enrage Enemies is clear that it works as long as the targets can see or hear you. There is no reason to infer that you cannot see inside of an otiluke's Resilient sphere as it does not state that it is opaque, like every other effect that is opaque. Which doesn't matter. I'd rule Otiluke's blocks sight irregardless on that line, but it is irrelevant to the ability. Nothing passes in or out. I think there's extremely clear intent there as far as magic goes. No magic should be able to pass through the effect. Supernatural effects are magical. They therefore can't pass through. Even if they could see you, it wouldn't matter as the magic of your effect can't make it through.
dkay807 05-31-07, 09:00 PM	Which doesn't matter. Nothing passes in or out. I think there's extremely strong intent there as far as magic goes. No magic should be able to pass through the effect. Supernatural effects are magical. They therefore can't pass through. Even if they could see you, it wouldn't matter as the magic of your effect can't make it through. That's a long, long stretch. I'll agree to disagree with you and leave it to the judgment of my DMs. Simply put, the effect requires line of sight, and nothing in otiluke's resilient sphere suggests that is opaque.
Mommy was an Orc 05-31-07, 09:09 PM	That's a long, long stretch. I'll agree to disagree with you and leave it to the judgment of my DMs. Simply put, the effect requires line of sight, and nothing in otiluke's resilient sphere suggests that is opaque. Again, that's irrelevant. Nothing can pass through and that should obviously include magic for all kinds of reasons. Enrage Enemies is magical. It therefore should not pass through. And I'd point out, this will seem awfully logical to DMs when you start pulling DC 35+ Will Saves.
Timlagor 05-31-07, 09:55 PM	I also rule that ORS is opaque and most of the GMs locally seem to agree with me (admittedly they take my word for a lot of stuff but I do point out the question in cases like this and let them make up their own minds). It's definitely not something to rely on.
dkay807 06-01-07, 01:54 PM	Okay, fair enough - I'll concede. Greater Invisibility does the trick again, especially since the divine prankster can cast and move away while invisible. This also gives him the ability to continue to use his spells to his advantage rather than bubbling himself in. I'm sure that there may be a few situations where this wouldn't work out terribly well, but any smart player can come up with a number of ways to get our of harm's way and achieve the same goal.
amnuxoll 06-01-07, 02:32 PM	Again, that's irrelevant. Nothing can pass through and that should obviously include magic for all kinds of reasons. Enrage Enemies is magical. It therefore should not pass through. And I'd point out, this will seem awfully logical to DMs when you start pulling DC 35+ Will Saves. I think you're on shaky ground here. I suspect that whlie there may be table variation the majority of DMs will allow it. Regardless, I think there is obvious value in building an arcane version of the Divine Trickster. I like this build better than the traditional cork cleric Divine Trickster. :AMN:
Drezden 06-03-07, 09:47 AM	Yeah, this build works really well at high levels. I have seen it (or a slight variation of it) in action. It was Bill Guardino's secondary character (which I suspect is where Dave came up with the concept). The only difference was I think he cranked his Save DC into the 40s and low 50s. Very effective - almost to the point of boring. I agree that the Ottiluke's Resilent Sphere trick would work. The few times I played with Bill the DMs let him do it. You might get some DMs (like Andy) who won't let you do it, but I don't think the table variation will be that great. The build is weak at APL8-10, but I have no doubt that Dave would find a way to contribute to the party. It certaintly would be a good re-build for a 10th level character. Daren
Mommy was an Orc 06-03-07, 10:17 AM	Yeah, this build works really well at high levels. I have seen it (or a slight variation of it) in action. It was Bill Guardino's secondary character (which I suspect is where Dave came up with the concept). The only difference was I think he cranked his Save DC into the 40s and low 50s. Very effective - almost to the point of boring. He likely can't do that anymore - Divine Insight is the major way to really break the curve - Motivate Charisma is the other big way. Interesting thing about Leadership feat at 12th is that you can make a Divine Prankster 5 right off the bat...and then the cohort provides the Enrage Enemies while the character hides the cohort immediately. And you can have a Bard/Marshal build be a Sublime Chord 2 by that point. Hmm...wonder if that fits any character we both know(and note, at the time I was originally saying that my character would be horribly broken at 12th, Divine Insight was legal - my cohort to be would be getting DC 40+ checks) :) I agree that the Ottiluke's Resilent Sphere trick would work. The few times I played with Bill the DMs let him do it. You might get some DMs (like Andy) who won't let you do it, but I don't think the table variation will be that great. If supernatural effects(which are magical) can pass through the sphere, then so can spells. A fireball might not damage the sphere, but it will kill whoever is inside it.
dkay807 06-03-07, 10:57 AM	If supernatural effects(which are magical) can pass through the sphere, then so can spells. A fireball might not damage the sphere, but it will kill whoever is inside it. You're reading too far into it, I'd say. A fireball would not be able to toast whoever is inside the sphere because the caster does not have line of effect into the sphere. As it states under the spell, nothing can pass in or out. However, Enrage Enemies relies on nothing but line of sight. Where the effect takes place is irrelevant. One could argue that the effect takes place outside of the sphere, even if the Divine prankster is inside - since all that it takes is line of sight. The only viable counter-argument would be claiming that the sphere is opaque, and unlike all other opaque effects, nothing in the spell description characterizes the sphere as opaque, making that a very poor argument. I see your argument and I disagree with you. At the end of the day, it really depends on what your DM says.
dkay807 06-03-07, 11:02 AM	Yeah, this build works really well at high levels. I have seen it (or a slight variation of it) in action. It was Bill Guardino's secondary character (which I suspect is where Dave came up with the concept). The only difference was I think he cranked his Save DC into the 40s and low 50s. Very effective - almost to the point of boring Actually, Bill and I were playing Divine Prankster/Sublime Chord builds at the same time back in the day. He was playing Nailz and I was test-driving something similar - pretty coincidentally - in a home game (I wasn't going to invest that much into a build that might not be effective without a test-drive). We compared some notes, of course :) What I really like about this build is the sheer number of actions you can take every round. I like the synergy that the proposed feat combination provides. I also really like the various forms of support that this build can offer. +3 Inspire Courage, Hymn of Praise/Harmonic Chorus caster level bumps, etc. It's not a one or two-trick pony like Nailz was. Granted, being a two-trick pony is acceptable when a) He had access to Illusory Pit, b) Illusory Pit was a standard action to cast, and c) Yes, Divine Insight was open.
dkay807 06-03-07, 11:04 AM	I agree that the Ottiluke's Resilent Sphere trick would work. The few times I played with Bill the DMs let him do it. You might get some DMs (like Andy) who won't let you do it, but I don't think the table variation will be that great. Did Bill really use Otiluke's? I didn't know that!
Maesto 06-03-07, 12:00 PM	A touchy subject. As a wizard, I've used the spell "Mindless Rage", which has exactly the save caveat (just a lower save DC, and is chainable ;-). I always argue that being behind a wall of force or an ottiluke's sphere will defeat the effect, from a balance point of view if nothing else. These are about the only two things which block line of effect but not line of sight, which is the critical point on the effects in question.
Drezden 06-05-07, 01:03 PM	Yep - that was a central strategy of his character when I played with him. I didn't realize it, but he must have used Divine Insight to get his DC up so high. It was just amusing to see DM's reactions to: "Make a DC 51 Will Save." Daren Did Bill really use Otiluke's? I didn't know that!
Drezden 06-05-07, 01:14 PM	Yes, yes - the Bard/Marshal combo - The Optimized Dominating character of Legend - all you have to do is add Unseen Seer and you are set. :) I think WoTC is going to change the name of the class to "MWaO's Unseen Seer." :) Just busting chops - I see you mention that class all the time. As far as Resilent Sphere, as Dave and others have pointed out, it blocks Line of Effect, but not Line of Sight. The Divine Prankster ability is based off of sight or sound, so I think the ORS would work (shimmering is not opaque) - Wall of Force would clearly work. You might get some slight table variation - and many DMs would grumble over how broken the tactic is - but I would expect it to work the vast majority of the time. Daren [snip] Hmm...wonder if that fits any character we both know(and note, at the time I was originally saying that my character would be horribly broken at 12th, Divine Insight was legal - my cohort to be would be getting DC 40+ checks) :) [snip] If supernatural effects(which are magical) can pass through the sphere, then so can spells. A fireball might not damage the sphere, but it will kill whoever is inside it.
Mommy was an Orc 06-05-07, 03:51 PM	As far as Resilent Sphere, as Dave and others have pointed out, it blocks Line of Effect, but not Line of Sight. The Divine Prankster ability is based off of sight or sound, so I think the ORS would work (shimmering is not opaque) - Wall of Force would clearly work. You might get some slight table variation - and many DMs would grumble over how broken the tactic is - but I would expect it to work the vast majority of the time. Daren It doesn't matter if it is Line of Effect or Line of Sight - it matters whether or not Resilient Sphere will let magical effects pass through it. It shouldn't. 'Nothing may pass through it.' That's very suspicously similar to the wording on Cube of Force which keeps out magic and clearly blocks the effect if either of the last two settings on a Cube of Force are on.
dkay807 06-05-07, 04:09 PM	Yes, we have all understood your opinion. Unfortunately, there are many aspects to the game that are open to DM interpretation. If you were my DM while I played this character, I would acquiesce to your ruling. However, you are not my DM on this forum, so while your interpretation is explicit, it is merely that - an interpretation. Regardless, let's just assume that the PC has SOME way of avoiding attacks while enraging enemies, whether it's greater invisibility, otiluke's, etc. If there are any OTHER points you'd like to make about this build, why it's feasible and why it isn't, I'd be interested in hearing them.
Mommy was an Orc 06-05-07, 04:30 PM	Yes, we have all understood your opinion. I'm addressing the Line of Sight issue that both of you keep using, which suggests you don't. Line of Sight is not relevant if Resilient Sphere won't allow magic through it. Resilient Sphere explicitly says that nothing can pass through it while Wall of Force explicitly allows Gaze Effects to operate through it. The pretty clear inference from that should be that Resilient Sphere does not allow supernatural Gaze Effects to pass through. Which is Line of Sight.
Drezden 06-05-07, 05:04 PM	No, we understand your opinion - we just don't AGREE with it. The fact that ORS doesn't let effects through has nothing whatsover to do with line of sight. Gaze attacks and the DP effect don't need line of effect - they simply require sight, i.e. Line of Sight. The "inference" you refer to isn't clear at all - in fact, the fact that Wall of Force explicitly allows Gaze attacks bolsters the fact that they should work in ORS, it doesn't imply that they don't. I find it amusing that you would even suggest otherwise. I mean really - c'mon we all know how incomplete, inconsistent, open to interpretation, etc - the DnD ruleset is. I love the leap of faith though. Daren I'm addressing the Line of Sight issue that both of you keep using, which suggests you don't. Line of Sight is not relevant if Resilient Sphere won't allow magic through it. Resilient Sphere explicitly says that nothing can pass through it while Wall of Force explicitly allows Gaze Effects to operate through it. The pretty clear inference from that should be that Resilient Sphere does not allow supernatural Gaze Effects to pass through. Which is Line of Sight.
Mommy was an Orc 06-05-07, 05:49 PM	I mean really - c'mon we all know how incomplete, inconsistent, open to interpretation, etc - the DnD ruleset is. That's the only reason I'm not calling it explicit. If an invisible force effect can block all magic(Cube of Force) which is considered a subset of 'all things' - magic is a thing. ORS blocks things...
dkay807 06-05-07, 09:49 PM	I'm addressing the Line of Sight issue that both of you keep using, which suggests you don't. Line of Sight is not relevant if Resilient Sphere won't allow magic through it. Resilient Sphere explicitly says that nothing can pass through it while Wall of Force explicitly allows Gaze Effects to operate through it. The pretty clear inference from that should be that Resilient Sphere does not allow supernatural Gaze Effects to pass through. Which is Line of Sight. That's no longer the point. This is the "LG Characters" forum... for people to discuss character builds. Since there are alternative ways to achieve the same goal, this argument is irrelevant here. If you're adamant about enforcing your opinion, take it to the "LG Rules" forum and see what others have to say. I think your points on this topic have merit, I'm just no longer interested in discussing them. At my tables, I'll allow it, regardless of how you feel about the subject. Besides, this isn't for one of my PCs and the guy who I was suggesting this for isn't sure if he wants to rebuild into this or into something else.