Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boogahwoof 05-07-07, 09:41 PM	I am currently about to play a intro mod so i have to come up with a 5th build, so I am considering a nightmare spinner. All I really have in mind is a gnome wizard specialist (illusionist) to start. Seems like you can go into nightmare spinner at 6th if you go straight wizard, so beyond wizard 5 nightmare spinner 5, I have no clue where to go, or what feats to chose beyond what is required to get the pr. class. Any imput would be appriciated and welcome
_metz_ 05-07-07, 09:46 PM	Shadowcraft mage. It's in Races of Stone. Its a 5 level Prestige class and sounds PERFECT for what you are planning. Requirements: Gnome with Spell Focus Illusionist (doesn't seem to be a problem) +1 Caster progression every level Some absolutely crazy abilities. Its a very powerful class. Especially combined with Fate spinner.
bitznarf 05-07-07, 09:58 PM	The biggest problem I see with Nightmare Spinner is that all the special abilites are based off of charisma. Losing a spell level with a spontaneous caster sucks pretty bad, as you will always be one spell level behind a prepared caster, getting 7th level spells at level 15. You can get around this problem to some extent with Shadowcraft Mage hijinks if you are familiar with what I am refering to (I can explain it if you want). If you were to go with a prepared caster none of the special abilties really do you a whole lot of good, considering that they are based of Cha, and you won't have many build points to spare. It could be useful as a 1 level dip at level 15 however, if you find yourself short of spell slots of every level. You could always just go Wiz7->ScM5->Wiz+3 for the extra Metamagic Feat if you want. If you are dead set on Nightmare Spinner I would look at Sorc8->ScM5->Sorc+1->NS1. You can replace some of the sorc levels with some other prestige class if you choose, perhaps something like Wild Mage.
_metz_ 05-07-07, 10:14 PM	I would Personally go: Wizard 5 Fatespinner 2 Shadowcraft Mage 5 Fatespinner 3 Simaler end results, lots of scary shadowy illusions, but the character is a lot more deadly.
bitznarf 05-07-07, 10:22 PM	You lose 8th level spells with that last Fatespinner level. Its not worth it. Wizard 6 wouldn't be a bad 'dip'. +1 BAB, +1 all saves. Edit: Actually, you can't take Fatespinner till 8th level as a Wizard, you need 4th level spells.
_metz_ 05-07-07, 11:30 PM	Hmm, fair point. Wizard 6 Geometer 2 Shadowcraft Mage 5 Fatespinner 2 This way you get Fickle Finger of Fate, Full nasty illusions, and 8th level spells. Stats: Str: 8 Dex: 8 Con: 18 Int: 18 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 All stat boosters to Int The Str is less of an issue with the Geometer levels... Con is also much more important than dex imho.
bitznarf 05-07-07, 11:41 PM	You've got a 30 point buy there I think Str-2 Dex-2 Con-10 Int-16 If you are looking at the weight of spell books, BBB handles that quite nicely. As does a bag of holding. And a wizard who is not crafting is not playing in an optimal fashion in LG.
_metz_ 05-07-07, 11:56 PM	You've got a 30 point buy there I think Str-2 Dex-2 Con-10 Int-16 If you are looking at the weight of spell books, BBB handles that quite nicely. As does a bag of holding. And a wizard who is not crafting is not playing in an optimal fashion in LG. whoops, my bad. above post edited.
King Kashue 05-08-07, 12:02 AM	"Tom, I can name a different class in three posts..." "Tom, I can name a different class in two posts..." "Name that class!" :D The biggest problem I see with Nightmare Spinner is that all the special abilites are based off of charisma. Losing a spell level with a spontaneous caster sucks pretty bad, as you will always be one spell level behind a prepared caster, getting 7th level spells at level 15. You can get around this problem to some extent with Shadowcraft Mage hijinks if you are familiar with what I am refering to (I can explain it if you want)....It could be useful as a 1 level dip at level 15 however, if you find yourself short of spell slots of every level. Thing is, if you're gonna take the hit in caster level, might as well then take the levels that don't have hits. Your point is valid about being concerned about a spontaneous caster taking a non-caster level hit, but I'm not sure that one level of the class at 15th level is really gonna satisfy someone who wants to play the class (i.e., ten ARs out of 100 isn't "playing the class")... Boogahwoof, the advice to take Shadowcraft Mage is extremely good. It's a great class overall, and it will compliment what you likely are going to want to do with the Nightmare Spinner. If you really want to do a nightmare spinner, don't be afraid to take a spontaneous caster, even though it will put you behind in spell levels. As Biznarf mentions, Nightmare spinner abilities are based off of Cha, so it's best to max that out and take Sorc as well. The nature of nightmare spinner abilities, and the one caster level hit, both suggest building a nerfer/buffer. The nightmare spinner abilities are indeed nasty, particularly Deadly Nightmare (11th level, DC 21-22 will save or die, 3/day, up to 22 hit dice...That ability will kill folks). If your charisma is high enough (to jack the saves on your nerfs), and you offset the lack of highest level spells through solid buffing, you'll be fine.
jstorrie 05-08-07, 02:09 AM	The class is really best focusing on Necromancy or Enchantment, not Illusion, because there are few Illusion spells that are really useful with the class abilities. So I don't think Gnome is really necessary. I'd go something like Human 1 Sorceror: Infernal Sorceror Heritage, Infernal Sorceror Howl 2 Sorceror 3 Sorceror: Spell Focus: Necromancy 4 Sorceror 5 Sorceror 6 Sorceror: Fearsome Necromancy 7 Nightmare Spinner 8 Nightmare Spinner 9 Nightmare Spinner: Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy 10 Nightmare Spinner 11 Nightmare Spinner 12 Fatespinner: Quicken Spell, Retrain GSF: Necromancy to Rapid Metamagic 13 Fatespinner 14 Fatespinner 15 Fatespinner: Ability Focus: Deadly Nightmare Infernal Sorceror Howl and Deadly Nightmare free up spell selection so that your lost caster levels are not as crippling. At the low levels, Infernal Sorceror Heritage also makes summoning useful long before it usually is–Infernal Heritage/Howl is definitely very powerful in the early game, when spells aren't that great yet. Quicken Spell + Fearsome Necromancy gives you another way to 'spin' down saves, and that you'll be able to do more often per day. You can flip one of those on someone to lower their save and then Deadly Nightmare them away. This isn't all that much better than just taking a high-level save or die spell, really, but you can also do some decent AoE necromancy debuffs with attached nonlethal damage hits. The thing is that Nightmare Spinner is not really all that powerful. There are very few illusion spells you'd want to use the Spirit Chill ability on, and the 3/day save-or-die doesn't have a higher DC than a spell from a Wizard who hadn't lost a caster level. You get two higher skill points per level and Immunity to Fear, and two spell-like abilities: one a minor debuff, and then the save-or-die, at the DCs would normally be for other casters. In return you lose a spellcasting level, which the two supernatural abilities sort of make up for. It isn't leagues ahead of a straight Sorceror 15, but it does have some aesthetic appeal.
_metz_ 05-08-07, 03:37 AM	I think Fate spinner/Shadowcraft mage is a stronger way of achieving a similar goal with the character. The fact that you HAVE to be a slightly dark gnome illusionist to do it goes with the character you seem to have in mind. The Fate spinner abilities coupled with ludicrous saves and spells like phantasmal killer/weird will have similar nasty results... Especially with a crazy high DC from your stats, spell focus (maybe even greater) With Int 20 at level 9, casting Phantasmal killer, means your DCs will be 21 plus. Not to mention the versatility of creating images of spells against things with bad will saves... It really boils down to what you want to do with the character. A wizard is always more versatile as well, Sorcerers are fun, but a wizard can always prepare a different spell, and with a couple of levels of Geometer, have many spells...
jstorrie 05-08-07, 06:22 AM	What does Nightmare Spinner offer to your castings of Phantasmal Killer, though? You'd be better going straight Shadowcraft Mage if that was your aim.
Mithreinmaethor 05-08-07, 06:55 AM	I like the nightmare spinner prc. I am working up a build for one myself. Its special abilities work with glammer and figment spells, which is why the original poster was going with illusionist. He might look at illusionist 5 / nightmare spinner 5 / shadowcraft mage 5. Thats 1st thru 7th level spells. (This gives 5 spell slots 1st thru 4th, 4 for 5th and 6th and 3 for 7th, but you get to choose your spells) I was looking at something like Beguiler 7 / Nightmare spinner 3 / shadowcraft mage 5. Thats 1st thru 6th level spells. Thats also 1st thru 7th level spells. (This gives it 7 spell slots 1st thru 5th, 6 for 6th and 4 7th before any stat adds) But I am known for odd builds anyhow.
dkay807 05-08-07, 07:55 AM	I think Fate spinner/Shadowcraft mage is a stronger way of achieving a similar goal with the character. The fact that you HAVE to be a slightly dark gnome illusionist to do it goes with the character you seem to have in mind. The Fate spinner abilities coupled with ludicrous saves and spells like phantasmal killer/weird will have similar nasty results... Especially with a crazy high DC from your stats, spell focus (maybe even greater) With Int 20 at level 9, casting Phantasmal killer, means your DCs will be 21 plus. Not to mention the versatility of creating images of spells against things with bad will saves... It really boils down to what you want to do with the character. A wizard is always more versatile as well, Sorcerers are fun, but a wizard can always prepare a different spell, and with a couple of levels of Geometer, have many spells... He'll be able to get his DC for Phantasmal Killer much higher than that. As a 12th level Shadowcraft Mage, my Phantasmal Killer DC is 27. Now, I would actually recommend going the Wizard route, and I'll explain why: The first-level ability of Nightmare spinner gives you an additional bonus spell at each level. That alone makes the class pretty cool - I even considered taking it with my Shadowcraft mage and due to heavy feat requirements (for a certain trick) decided against it (went Loremaster instead). That ability isn't nearly as great as a sorceror, since you have many spells per day anyway. Combine that with that fact that you'll be relying primarily on illusion spells do do the work for you (Shadow Illusion ability of the Shadowcraft mage) and you're set! All of the other class abilities are better for sorcerors, agreed, but they're not that good anyway and at higher levels, they'll be even less useful - not to mention a MAX DC of 22 or 23 will mean everything will save against them later on. You can still benefit from the Nightmare Phantasm ability and Spirit Chill will add a little bit of a kick because of it. Now, having said that, I would do the following: Gnome Illusionist 5/Nightmare Spinner 3/Shadowcraft Mage 5... after that, you can take two more levels of Nightmare spinner but I'd say it's a waste... take one more level of Wizard for the save bump and then consider any of the other popular prestige classes (although Nightmare Spinner does have some awesome skills with more skills per level than those other classes). You could even do the Earth Spell trick if you wanted, but you'd never be able to cast 9's...
TWG_Prometheus 05-08-07, 10:36 AM	The notion that Sorcerers have more spells than Wizards is outdated. At the maximum possible, Sorcerers get 6+(Cha bonus spells) while Wizards get 4+(Int bonus spells) at worst and 5+(Int bonus spells) if they specialize. The Wizard can also use Pearls of Power without dropping a feat into Arcane Preparation and has Scribe Scroll as a 1st level feat if they ever run low. The only actual benefit Sorcerers get is tactical flexibility...always being able to pick the spell (in their selection) that fits the situation best as events come up. More spells is a good thing for Sorcerers too. They run out of spells/day as fast or faster than Wizards.
jstorrie 05-08-07, 01:02 PM	Given that you lose a spellcasting level to get it, Nightmare Spinner's free illusion slot will actually not gain you anything as a Wizard. So again, I'd have to ask why you'd take Nightmare Spinner at all if you were a Wizard. The class offers you essentially nothing if you don't have a high Charisma, at the cost of a spellcasting level.
Jay_Ibero_911 05-08-07, 07:28 PM	I think a lot of people are failing to see the true nastiness of Nightmare SPinner, the fact that they can force a WILL save or die 3 times per day, based on CHA, so for an average Sorc starting with 15 CHA, bumping 3 times, and a +6 cloak, the will save DC is DC 22, sufficiently high to cause problems for many enemy bdfs. Take ability focus and the DC goes up to 25. And even if they make the save, they are still panicked for a round. I'd say losing 1 caster level as a spontaneous caster is worth it.
King Kashue 05-08-07, 08:16 PM	I think a lot of people are failing to see the true nastiness of Nightmare SPinner *cough*post #9*cough* :D