Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fghj171983 11-13-06, 04:06 PM	Thinking about playing a Rogue/Shadowdancer in Greyhawk and I wanted some opinions on how viable it was. I was thinking of doing something like this. I really like the shadow dancer pet so I always have a flanker. Shadow Jump seems pretty cool too. Hide in plain sight should help me sneak attack if I cant set up a flank too. Human str 14 dex 16 con 15 int 10 wis 10 cha 8 1 rog - Dodge, Mobility 2 rog 3 rog - Combat Reflexes 4 rog dex +1 5 rog 6 rog - Spring Attack 7 rog 8 shd dex +1 9 shd - Weapon finesse 10 shd 11 shd 12 shd - improved init 13 shd 14 Night song enforcer 15 Night song enforcer - some feat imp toughness?
UMiskatonic 11-13-06, 04:25 PM	I tried this, and it wasn't good. Here's why. 1) Waiting until 9th level for weapon finesse usually HURTS. Reconsider that. However, your build has a high strength, and probably doesn't need it at all. That's really good. 2) Sneak attack damage gets less useful at higher levels. This leaves you without a lot to do. UMD is a good long-term investment to off-set this. 3) The benefits of Shadowdancer (evasion, stealth) are the SAME as those of rogue 5 (evasion, stealth). Paradoxically, rogue 5 is one of the worst ways into shadowdancer, even though it shouldn't be. 4) Hide in plain sight, while awesome, gets beaten with lifesense, tremorsense, or blindsight. Maybe scent too, depending on the judge. So, I'd suggest some other way into the class. Fighter2/rogue 3, or monk 5, or ranger 6, or something. The usual move is spring attack (for sneak damage), and then use your move action to hide again. Rinse, repeat. Alternatively, make yourself a spiked-chain wielding monk, and hide in the middle of the room, taking AO's on all who enter your zone of fury. You don't need the shadow buddy to do this, and I think Nightsong Enforcer would be much better. I also highly suggest Power Attack. With one attack a round at full Bab, you'll hit often enough. Make sure you hit hard.
Lightblade 11-15-06, 03:43 PM	I haven't played it yet, but it seems to me that Scout is a good way into Shadowdancer. The bonus feat at 4th lets is required for Shadowdancer, and if you're springing, you'll get your skirmish off.
Jay_Ibero_911 11-15-06, 09:53 PM	I haven't played it yet, but it seems to me that Scout is a good way into Shadowdancer. The bonus feat at 4th lets is required for Shadowdancer, and if you're springing, you'll get your skirmish off. The problem with that is if you go the Scout route, you don't get as much use from the primary shadow dancer abilities: Hide in PLain Site and the Shadow Companion. Sure they are useful, but not as invaluable as when you have sneak attack.
Japangirl 11-16-06, 12:38 AM	I've seen a very successful shadow dancer who mostly scouts and uses his shadow to strength drain things. He took something with 40something strength and trample down to 20something strength before we killed it, which was nice. Monk/shadow dancer is pretty decent, and I think scount/shadow dancer would be a very nice synergy.
Britt 11-16-06, 01:11 AM	I had a shadowdancer cohort for a while, before he got disintigrated :( I found the shadow companion was /way/ broken. If you scouted ahead all the time, find any encounter with creatures that lacked weapons or DR/magic (and, hence, couldn't hurt the shadow), and just let the shadow handle things hundreds of feet ahead. You couldn't use it all the time, but it came up enough on tough enough encounters that it was way too good, IMO. I guess that mean I think shadowdancer is worth it :)
solbergb 11-16-06, 02:01 PM	I played with a shadowdancer in a home game. He liked his character a lot, but you have to understand that it is a scout, not a "melee rogue". Shadowdancer has the advantage that it can generally sneak once every round. It has the disadvantage that it loses sneak attack, and is forced to waste feats on things that a sneaky rogue won't normally use (such as combat reflexes). This means that while you can do SOME damage, you'll never be a star in that arena - you just don't have the feats left over to make the most of sneak attack. Some kind of hulking half-orc or wood-elf musclebound shadowdancer might get around that (and make some use of combat reflexes) but the usual high dex/low str model won't. The shadow companion is very very good. The dim door tricks in shadows are also pretty good. Seeing in the dark is nice for scouting. Hiding anywhere is pretty cool, although I've been adventuring with a lot of folks with permanent or near-permanent daylight (or better) effects that can be awkward. A shadowdancer is NOT as good when you travel with Pholtans or Radient Servants that insist on starting the day with a heightened extended daylight spell.
UMiskatonic 11-16-06, 03:05 PM	Yeah, I've got to agree with the two posts above. The thing that ultimately made me reformat my shadowdancer in conversion was my inability to fight well in melee. Now I've got a wildrunner who can sneak 2/3 as well, but who is able to fight at her APL as a secondary combatant. I'm much happier that way. Results may vary. If you love being all sneaky, it really is tough to beat. Advice: Buy scrolls of pass without trace. Easy UMD check, and only 25 gold. Easily worth no tracks, no scent.
_m_ 11-16-06, 05:17 PM	until a bloodhound gets on your trail :D meanwhile, i know a little shadowdancer sorcerer sneak attacking girl... shes cute AND funny... and hits REALLY hard with those rays.
copper_wyrmling 11-20-06, 11:07 PM	until a bloodhound gets on your trail :D meanwhile, i know a little shadowdancer sorcerer sneak attacking girl... shes cute AND funny... and hits REALLY hard with those rays. Is that Gem? Azrien thinks Gem is wonderful :) (But she doesn't hit as hard with rays as Azrien does, unless she's gotten some significant power-ups since they last met ;) ) On topic, I ran several games for a high-level (~16) rogue / shadowdancer archer before she retired. I agree with Britt on the shadow companion, it's just ridiculous, since an awful lot of high-end monsters don't carry magic weapons. She also used shadowjump well, but was emphatically not a melee character.
_m_ 11-21-06, 12:08 AM	Is that Gem? Azrien thinks Gem is wonderful :) (But she doesn't hit as hard with rays as Azrien does, unless she's gotten some significant power-ups since they last met ;) ) On topic, I ran several games for a high-level (~16) rogue / shadowdancer archer before she retired. I agree with Britt on the shadow companion, it's just ridiculous, since an awful lot of high-end monsters don't carry magic weapons. She also used shadowjump well, but was emphatically not a melee character. WOOHOO yes its GEM! she and i got on fabulously in the interactive (2 tiny little ray throwing zagyg worshipping +28 to hiding crazys! it was AWSUM)
ricotj 11-29-06, 02:45 PM	I played a halfling rogue/Shadow dancer up to level 14. He had a two level dip into fighter for twf, itwf. With combat exp, weapon finess and a few nice items I could do MAJOR damage with my 5 (boots of haste) attacks a round. The only real problem I ran into was of course things that couldn't be Sneak'd.
Some_call_me_Tim 11-30-06, 07:29 PM	Thinking about playing a Rogue/Shadowdancer in Greyhawk and I wanted some opinions on how viable it was. I was thinking of doing something like this. I really like the shadow dancer pet so I always have a flanker. Shadow Jump seems pretty cool too. Hide in plain sight should help me sneak attack if I cant set up a flank too. My wife plays a shadowdancer. The shadow companion isn't as useful as it could be as a flanker; by the time you get one at character level 10, they just aren't resilient enough to keep around. Having 19 hp is way too few, one area of effect spell that he misses his save and miss chance he's gone or worse a single high-level magic missile with a slightly above average damage roll. As other posters have noted against some monsters it is wicked but it depends on how often you encounter things that can't hit incorporeal. At the levels you usually see shadowdancers I find that to be a small minority of cases.
copper_wyrmling 12-01-06, 07:44 PM	As other posters have noted against some monsters it is wicked but it depends on how often you encounter things that can't hit incorporeal. At the levels you usually see shadowdancers I find that to be a small minority of cases. I suspect this is a matter of regional variation: in most of the games I played in the Iuz metaregion over the last few years, it seemed like most of the high-level encounters were with demons, and they mostly used their natural weapons, meaning that incorporeality was pretty much damage immunity, and DR / magic was far more useful than DR / good. Also note that even creatures whose natural weapons count as magic for overcoming DR don't count as magic for striking incorporeals - the wording is the same as for the monk's ki strike.
Mommy was an Orc 12-03-06, 12:56 AM	Also note that even creatures whose natural weapons count as magic for overcoming DR don't count as magic for striking incorporeals - the wording is the same as for the monk's ki strike. Except that in the case of creatures whose natural weapons count as magic weapons are expressly noted as being capable of striking incorporeals. Yes, I know they use the same language. But if the FAQ's ruling is extended in the way you list, it means that there are no creatures capable of using natural weapons that count as magical weapons. That's my primary use of Rule 0 - if an interpretation means there is zero application for a rule, that interpretation is wrong because it violates the spirit of the rules. So while I might not be able to point out how your eminently logical deduction violates the spirit of the rules, it most clearly does and therefore, for whatever reason, you and I must be missing some element of what the sage was trying to convey - perhaps he meant in this particular case, a Monk's fist was not fully considered a natural weapon. And therefore, his ruling only applies to Monks.
Some_call_me_Tim 12-03-06, 10:04 AM	Except that in the case of creatures whose natural weapons count as magic weapons are expressly noted as being capable of striking incorporeals. Could you give a citation, please. I've been all over the books and can't find it.
Mommy was an Orc 12-03-06, 10:17 AM	Could you give a citation, please. I've been all over the books and can't find it. 2nd sentence of Incorporeal, page 310: "It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons" There are no creatures that strike as magic weapons according to the interpretation that the wording for Monk can be extended...and if creatures that strike as magic weapons are not using natural weaponry, what exactly are they using?
solbergb 12-04-06, 12:13 PM	All of which means that eventually, a monk20 CAN affect incorporeals with his fists, because he's then got DR/magic which means he now meets all the above criteria. (dr/magic means you can affect critters with same DR with your nat weapons...monk fists are considered nat weapons for all effects, blah blah) The ruling is on Ki Strike itself...not on whether monks fists are "nat weaponlike enough". It's saying Ki Strike/whatever is not identical to having DR/whatever. It does only what Ki Strike says it does and nothing more. (I dislike the ruling. But it just means my argument that the one GMW in the party goes on my foot or whatever is stronger when playing my monk...)
myshkingfh 02-05-07, 03:56 PM	When does it make most sense to stop being a shadowdancer? I am about to take my 8th level (fighter 2, diviner 1, rogue 4 deep halfling, spiked chain), which will be shadowdancer 1. I was thinking of taking duskblade 1 (assuming it is approves) after that (+1bab and good saves) using the knowledge skill points to pick up knowedge nature +4 and then taking cat lord 1, cat lord 2 (for the high BAB, good saves and big hide bonus) and then finishing out as rogue. I would then be Fighter 2, diviner 1, duskbalde 1, shadowdancer 1, Catlord 2, rogue 9, because it seems to me that the only real benefit to shadwodancer is hide in plain sight. Based on this thread, would it be better to go f2, div1, db1, sd 3, cl 2 r7 in order to get the shadow companion? Or is it best for some reason I just don't see to go f2, div1, r4, sd9?
Daverius 02-07-07, 04:37 AM	Thinking about playing a Rogue/Shadowdancer in Greyhawk and I wanted some opinions on how viable it was. I was thinking of doing something like this. I really like the shadow dancer pet so I always have a flanker. Shadow Jump seems pretty cool too. Hide in plain sight should help me sneak attack if I cant set up a flank too. Human str 14 dex 16 con 15 int 10 wis 10 cha 8 I've followed the thread and I'm pretty sure no one pointed this out so... why have 15 con if you are not going to bump it all? You could put the 2 extra points into wisdom and that should help you with your will saves, spot and listen checks. str 14 dex16 con14 int10 wis12 cha8 Daverius
_m_ 02-07-07, 06:28 PM	I've followed the thread and I'm pretty sure no one pointed this out so... why have 15 con if you are not going to bump it all? You could put the 2 extra points into wisdom and that should help you with your will saves, spot and listen checks. str 14 dex16 con14 int10 wis12 cha8 Daverius perhaps holding out for a +1 booster? i've found exactly ONE. and that took a feat of extrodinary difficult impossibleness. still, they're out there.