Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alma 03-21-07, 03:21 AM	Just started building a spiked chain knight mostly to abuse the 3ed level ability that causes his threatened squares to become hindering squares after a wile I got lost. I am thinking Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 14 (combat expertise) Wis 10 Cha 8 Lv 1 knight exotic and combat reflexes 2knight 3 knight combat expertise 4 fighter improved trip 5 fighter power attack 6? Weapon focus chain 7 exotic weapons master trip 8 exotic flurry That’s kind of where I got lost
Maesto 03-21-07, 03:46 AM	*sighs* Another spiked chain tripper. Very well. Depending on how you want to do stuff, you can consider Hold the Line, as well as Leadership for a cohort that has a marshal level boosting your strength checks. If you can find them, steadfast boots would work well with this kind of build. Since reach weapons take cover from allies, the third level of EWM is worth taking - a bonus to bab and your two non-favoured saves, and you can take AoOs through cover also. There are going to be times you just can't trip anything, and then you just want to damage things. You might as well take another two fighter levels (at 6 and 10) to pick up Weapon Specialisation and Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing). Improved Disarm wouldn't go badly as your 12th level feat. If you take two more fighter levels (levels 11 and 12), taking True Believer at 12 also, you can then jump into Pious Templar, which would be a nice way to cap off this build. Put your final stat bump into wisdom to get spellcasting abilities, or get an ioun stone of wisdom +2. Just my 2c.
King Kashue 03-21-07, 12:22 PM	Just started building a spiked chain knight mostly to abuse the 3ed level ability that causes his threatened squares to become hindering squares after a wile I got lost. First, go and re-read the ability. It does not make all threatened squares difficult terrain... "An opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain." (PHBII p. 28) I'm seriously gonna put this in my signature...
Jay_Ibero_911 03-21-07, 12:32 PM	Here's a non-tripping spiked chain knight that still gets loads of AOO's: Race:Human Alignment:Any Lawful STR-15 (8) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-14 (6) WIS-8 (0) CHA-10 (2) Lv1(Knight)Power Attack, Cleave Lv2(Knight)Mounted Combat Lv3(Knight)Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) Lv4(Fighter)Combat Reflexes, +1 STR Lv5(Fighter)Hold the Line Lv6(Tactical Soldier)Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) Lv7(Exotic Weapon Master)Flurry of Strikes Lv8(Tactical Soldier)Sidestep, +1 STR Lv9(Fighter)Combat Expertise Lv10(Fighter)Weapon Specialization Lv11(Fighter) Lv12(Fighter)Melee Weapon Mastery, Deadly Defense, +1 STR Lv13(Fighter) Lv14(Fighter)Combat Intuition Lv15(Knight)Defensive Sweep No shortage of opportunities here, without wasting your time with trying to trip. I include Tactical Soldier because it is available from my region's metaorgs, and the flanker and sidestep abilities are nice.
Mommy was an Orc 03-21-07, 12:33 PM	First, go and re-read the ability. It does not make all threatened squares difficult terrain... "An opponent that begins its turn in your threatened area treats all the squares that you threaten as difficult terrain." (PHBII p. 28) Round 1: You charge your medium-sized foe. You threaten him and the squares closest to you and his are all difficult terrain. He moves 5' toward you(provoking) and makes a single, non-charge attack. Round 2+: You 5' step away from him and full attack. He moves 5' toward you(provoking) and makes a single, non-charge attack. I'd definitely count that as having a lot of worthwhile elements for a chain fighter...
LachlarlanIII 03-21-07, 12:35 PM	Here's a non-tripping spiked chain knight that still gets loads of AOO's: Race:Human Alignment:Any Lawful STR-15 (8) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-14 (6) WIS-8 (0) CHA-10 (2) Lv1(Knight)Power Attack, Cleave Lv2(Knight)Mounted Combat Lv3(Knight)Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain) Lv4(Fighter)Combat Reflexes, +1 STR Lv5(Fighter)Hold the Line Lv6(Tactical Soldier)Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain) Lv7(Exotic Weapon Master)Flurry of Strikes Lv8(Tactical Soldier)Sidestep, +1 STR Lv9(Fighter)Combat Expertise Lv10(Fighter)Weapon Specialization Lv11(Fighter) Lv12(Fighter)Melee Weapon Mastery, Deadly Defense, +1 STR Lv13(Fighter) Lv14(Fighter)Combat Intuition Lv15(Knight)Defensive Sweep No shortage of opportunities here, without wasting your time with trying to trip. I include Tactical Soldier because it is available from my region's metaorgs, and the flanker and sidestep abilities are nice. Why not take Knight 4 before beginning Fighter. You gain Medium Armor Mastery that way.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-21-07, 12:57 PM	Why not take Knight 4 before beginning Fighter. You gain Medium Armor Mastery that way. Could do that, but that messes up the feat progression a little...I'd rather get the feats sooner than the ability to move a little faster with this build. Doesn't make a huge difference either way. Adjust to taste.
King Kashue 03-21-07, 01:40 PM	Round 1: You charge your medium-sized foe. You threaten him and the squares closest to you and his are all difficult terrain. He moves 5' toward you(provoking) and makes a single, non-charge attack. Round 2+: You 5' step away from him and full attack. He moves 5' toward you(provoking) and makes a single, non-charge attack. I'd definitely count that as having a lot of worthwhile elements for a chain fighter... Did I say it wasn't worthwhile? :confused: I said the ability didn't function as he (and countless other people) think it does...That's all...
Morgen 03-21-07, 02:19 PM	Well I know that a friend of mine is going to go knight with his Centaur from the Brightlands..... Eep.
ithardin 03-21-07, 04:53 PM	My thoughts are that personally I think a Knight as described in the PH2 would consider tripping an opponent (and then attacking them when down as most chain fighters do) as dishonorable. Knights don't take flanking bonuses (though they do count for others to take them), why would they wield a weapon and use tactics that make opponents (one could argue) helpless by knocking them prone? Of course, if it works within the rules then its just me being an elitist RP snob:D Just expect my Knight to scoff at your cowardly chain-fighting tactics!
LachlarlanIII 03-21-07, 05:08 PM	The Knights code is very specific. They don't attack flat-footed foes, they don't accept flank bonuses, and they don't attack helpless foes. Any enemy that a Knight trips, after that enemy has acted, falls under none of those categories. Even though it would seem against the code, tripping isn't strictly prohibited and as such doesn't violate it.
ithardin 03-21-07, 05:18 PM	Which is why I said that if it works within the rules its just me being an elitist RP snob:D Though RP-wise why would a Knight NOT take a +2 advantage to attack a standing foe and yet take a +4 advantage to attack a prone foe (prone = -4 to AC). Which one seems more "honorable" to you?
cetiken 03-21-07, 07:43 PM	A knight might reason that the ability to stay on your feet is a skill that he's checking. A person often has no choice about being flanked, but if you can't even make an opposed strength check clearly the opponents defeat is inevitable. While the knights code of conduct encourages fair play its not saying that every battle is a sparing contest where after being tripped an opponent is allowed to stand up and we resume fighting with you in a slightly disadvantageous position. A knights friends are in danger of dieing (now this isn't always true and a Good knight might forfeit the extra attack if not in a fight for his friends life). Also remember that knights aren't always the good guys. A LN knight might point out that what isn't forbidden is clearly allowed and just shrug at the rest of your complaints. An evil knight would take glee at using a perceived loophole in the rules to gain advantage.
Gwumph 03-22-07, 12:11 AM	Another thing to remember. While mounted you are considered to be in every one your mounts squares and therefor would have a large size base with 10ft of threatened squares (if using a spiked chain)
Qworg 03-26-07, 04:06 PM	Man, spiked chains ruin everything. =( Where are the sword and boarders?!
clannagh 03-26-07, 07:25 PM	if you really want to take advantage of the synergy between chain fighting and the knight abilities you need to find ways of being reliably enlarged so you can threaten 20' if you dont regularly party with an aracanist with a wand you could consider a gish
King Kashue 03-26-07, 07:31 PM	Where are the sword and boarders?! Standing in the corner, smirking as the chain fighters leave a cheddary residue all over the battle field...
clannagh 03-26-07, 08:04 PM	Standing in the corner, smirking as the chain fighters leave a cheddary residue all over the battle field... Or standing in the corner complaining loudly that its unfair that the party druid and the chain fighter are more effective in combat then them and claiming they are being persecuted for being a traditionalist ???
King Kashue 03-26-07, 08:10 PM	Or standing in the corner complaining loudly that its unfair that the party druid and the chain fighter are more effective in combat then them and claiming they are being persecuted for being a traditionalist ??? Naw, my "ineffective" sword and boarder has an AC in the 30s and a ring of blinking...1d8+8+1d6 while making everyone flatfooted and not taking a lick of damage...Just as useful in combat as most min/maxed fellows, with every knowledge skill and 14 languages :D As for the party druid, they're much less effective as furry humanoids with a Con of 14 :D To my mind, spiked chains are like tanglefoot bags...Even in a fantasy world, the described usage just doesn't make sense.
cycloptic_squirrel 03-26-07, 08:30 PM	if you really want to take advantage of the synergy between chain fighting and the knight abilities you need to find ways of being reliably enlarged so you can threaten 20' if you don't regularly party with an aracanist with a wand you could consider a gish Nah. If you have a feat and a skill point to spare, check out Magic Device Attunement from Complete Mage. As long as you successfully activate an item with Use Magic Device you can attune yourself to it and use it for 24 hours without a check. Buy a wand of enlarge person. Wake up, try 20 times to use said wand, and once you finally do it, you can use it reliably the rest of the day. Just hope you don't roll a one for the day. Carry two wands, just in case. No arcane spell chance failure to worry about since it's a wand. And you can even switch to another wand if you come across one you like better. Cure light wounds when your low level and no cleric. Mirror image if you really don't like getting hit. Heck, even a wand of haste if you get good access and have cash to burn. The only problem is that you burn a charge every day attuning yourself. This results in either many charges for traveling adventures or not being attuned during those roadside ambushes that seem to pop up. But either way, pick up a wand of Enlarge. They're cheap, core access, and a surefire method for making sure the party arcanist has the capability to enlarge you (though he might want to use his action for other things).
Japangirl 03-26-07, 10:43 PM	Naw, my "ineffective" sword and boarder has an AC in the 30s and a ring of blinking...1d8+8+1d6 while making everyone flatfooted and not taking a lick of damage...Just as useful in combat as most min/maxed fellows, with every knowledge skill and 14 languages :D As for the party druid, they're much less effective as furry humanoids with a Con of 14 :D To my mind, spiked chains are like tanglefoot bags...Even in a fantasy world, the described usage just doesn't make sense. *Gasp* Ring of Blinking! Me wants! I've never ever seen one, not even in high-level interactives, though people have showed me (retired) ARs from other regions that give access.
clannagh 03-26-07, 10:59 PM	Naw, my "ineffective" sword and boarder has an AC in the 30s and a ring of blinking...1d8+8+1d6 while making everyone flatfooted and not taking a lick of damage...Just as useful in combat as most min/maxed fellows, with every knowledge skill and 14 languages :D As for the party druid, they're much less effective as furry humanoids with a Con of 14 :D To my mind, spiked chains are like tanglefoot bags...Even in a fantasy world, the described usage just doesn't make sense. I actually mainly build fighters and sword and boarders can be quite effective if you put some work in and play them well :) Its surprising how often a random party of all arcanist archers rogues and other light fighters panics once they realise their is no "tank" available. I was mainly having an unsubtle dig at the stereotypical annoying poster who believes that improving his own build is too much like hard work and instead tries to improve his relative effectiveness by complaining that everyone else is overpowered and should have their class/abilities/feats banned.
King Kashue 03-27-07, 01:56 AM	*Gasp* Ring of Blinking! Me wants! I've never ever seen one, not even in high-level interactives, though people have showed me (retired) ARs from other regions that give access. Mine came from a favor that allowed me to have any single item from the DMG regardless of cost :D I was sorely tempted to get an Apparatus of Kwalish, just to have one :D
Qworg 03-27-07, 03:21 PM	I actually mainly build fighters and sword and boarders can be quite effective if you put some work in and play them well :) Its surprising how often a random party of all arcanist archers rogues and other light fighters panics once they realise their is no "tank" available. I was mainly having an unsubtle dig at the stereotypical annoying poster who believes that improving his own build is too much like hard work and instead tries to improve his relative effectiveness by complaining that everyone else is overpowered and should have their class/abilities/feats banned. Wow. Well then. My own builds don't need much, if any, work. I never complained they were overpowered - it's simply an observation that given any choice in the matter, the "Greyhawk Characters" are variations on the same, pretty boring, theme. That, and if I was running a home game, I'd have to extend RAW to cover other situations of taking advantage of an opponents weakness to make you lose Knight's Challenges. You can't take your flanking bonus, but you can knock someone down then beat them on the ground?