Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boogahwoof 04-15-07, 12:19 AM	I have seen alot with archers, occult slater archers, demon slayer archers, just wondering has anyone come up with some off the wall archer build. Doesnt even have to be a game breaker, just something different with some roleplaying or quirkiness to them. I guess i have just played for so long it seems everything has almost been done, i dearly dont wanna loose interest and i have 4 char already in L.G. So i am looking for something new, I have the power attack, the mage, the cleric, and a 2 weapon fighter. So any ideas in the archer realm would be nice and appriciated. Thanks
Lupo 04-15-07, 04:15 AM	I have seen alot with archers, occult slater archers, demon slayer archers, just wondering has anyone come up with some off the wall archer build. Doesnt even have to be a game breaker, just something different with some roleplaying or quirkiness to them. I guess i have just played for so long it seems everything has almost been done, i dearly dont wanna loose interest and i have 4 char already in L.G. So i am looking for something new, I have the power attack, the mage, the cleric, and a 2 weapon fighter. So any ideas in the archer realm would be nice and appriciated. Thanks some new options with the now open feats from the PHB II,: "ranged weapon mastery [piercing]" and "penetrating shot" make full BAB builds tempting ;), something like a ranger 8/pious templar 7 in any suitable combination. or even a ranger 11/fighter 4 [both paths give "weapon specialization" a prerequisite for "ranged weapon mastery". ciao martin m.
Zanzibax 04-15-07, 10:02 AM	I have seen alot with archers, occult slater archers, demon slayer archers, just wondering has anyone come up with some off the wall archer build. Doesnt even have to be a game breaker, just something different with some roleplaying or quirkiness to them. I guess i have just played for so long it seems everything has almost been done, i dearly dont wanna loose interest and i have 4 char already in L.G. So i am looking for something new, I have the power attack, the mage, the cleric, and a 2 weapon fighter. So any ideas in the archer realm would be nice and appriciated. Thanks I use an archer gish. Sonic weapon + manyshot and a round to True Strike when nobody else can hit a critter. It loses 3 pips of BAB and 3 levels of sorcerer, but seems to do all right. The current group that character is with has no real front-line fighter. A pair of archers, a favored soul/warmage, and a last character or two consisting of cleric, or druid, or blaster.
Mommy was an Orc 04-15-07, 10:39 AM	Rogue Archers, particularly with Unseen Seer are quite nice. Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 7 - +6d6 Sneak, Ranged Weapon Mastery, can cast his own Greater Invisibility. Uses Guided Shot for no range penalties.
Lightblade 04-15-07, 12:24 PM	Well, Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish make ranger/scout archers more viable, i think. I'm playing one now that just hit 6th level, and he's doing okay. Rogue Archers, particularly with Unseen Seer are quite nice. Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 7 - +6d6 Sneak, Ranged Weapon Mastery, can cast his own Greater Invisibility. Uses Guided Shot for no range penalties. Mommy: Guided shot doesn't seem that useful for your build, as it won't get past the 30' sneak limitation. The spell Sniper's Shot does that . Though Guided Shot will let you sneak things that you could not have otherwise due to concealment, i think.
Mommy was an Orc 04-15-07, 01:13 PM	Well, Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish make ranger/scout archers more viable, i think. I'm playing one now that just hit 6th level, and he's doing okay. Mommy: Guided shot doesn't seem that useful for your build, as it won't get past the 30' sneak limitation. The spell Sniper's Shot does that . Though Guided Shot will let you sneak things that you could not have otherwise due to concealment, i think. Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 7 can easily be doing 1d8+11+bow specials+a couple of spells - make that +4d6 of damage and 4 shots at 12th level - the average damage is 90 hp or so at up to 1300 feet assuming 3 shots hit - no range penalty... Just because you're a Rogue, doesn't mean you can't do damage normally...
Lightblade 04-15-07, 01:31 PM	Fair enough. Have you ever had encounters where doing damage at more than 2 or so range increments or so was useful, though? It seems like they'd be few and far between.
Mommy was an Orc 04-15-07, 01:39 PM	Fair enough. Have you ever had encounters where doing damage at more than 2 or so range increments or so was useful, though? It seems like they'd be few and far between. I've had two encounters in the past couple of months where it would have been amazingly useful. My archer was taking huge penalties to hit at 1000 feet and hoping for natural 20s(escaping treasure) :)
Lupo 04-15-07, 05:45 PM	Fair enough. Have you ever had encounters where doing damage at more than 2 or so range increments or so was useful, though? It seems like they'd be few and far between. the special with the "treasure fleet", the poor harpies never came close enough at a table to use their song, at my table they came just in reach, only to try to flee afterwards, were dead within two range increments :D: oh, another one, an air elemental that thought 400 ft away were safe ;) ciao martin m.
clannagh 04-15-07, 07:27 PM	oh, another one, an air elemental that thought 400 ft away were safe ;) ciao martin m. my archers range increment is 305' with flight arrows :)
Genghis Cohen 04-15-07, 09:31 PM	some new options with the now open feats from the PHB II,: "ranged weapon mastery [piercing]" and "penetrating shot" make full BAB builds tempting ;), something like a ranger 8/pious templar 7 in any suitable combination. or even a ranger 11/fighter 4 [both paths give "weapon specialization" a prerequisite for "ranged weapon mastery". ciao martin m.That's similar to the build for my 4th level archer. Its this: 1. Ranger - Track, Point Blank 2. Fighter - Precise Shot 3. Ranger - Rapid Shot, True Believer 4. Fighter - Weapon Focus 5. Ranger - Endurance 6. Ranger - Woodland Archer, ability to cast Arrow Mind 7. Pious Templar 8. Pious Templar 9. Pious Templar - Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical 10. Pious Templar - Ranged Weapon Mastery 11. Wildrunner 12. Wildrunner - Improved Precise Shot 13. Ranger 14. Ranger - Many Shot 15. Ranger - Improved Rapid Shot
amnuxoll 04-15-07, 09:44 PM	I've had two encounters in the past couple of months where it would have been amazingly useful. My archer was taking huge penalties to hit at 1000 feet and hoping for natural 20s(escaping treasure) :) My archer has a sorcerer level for this express purpose. It's not unusual for me to run out of spells because he's using guided shot so much (mostly to negate cover). :AMN:
amnuxoll 04-15-07, 09:57 PM	I was thinking seriously about taking my current archer does and doing it right: being able to move around the battle field instead of just taking five foots steps with rapid shot. You do the Swift Hunter + Improved Skirmish combo of scout4/rgr2 then go into Order of the Bow Initiate. The idea is that when you move you still do a lot of damage with a single shot because you're getting skirmish and improved precision and many shot. Couple that with a crossbow (instead of a bow) and take that feat that adds half your dex to the damage and/or take Improved Critical so you're getting a big threat range with a bow. The other thought was to do this with Arcane Archer instead of OOBI so that you can imbue your arrows with spells as part of that single arrow you're firing. The problem with either build is that you don't have enough feats to pull it off. =( To sum up, you WANT: point blank shot, precise shot, swift hunter, improved skirmish, penetrating shot, improved critical, rapid reload, weapon focus, improved skirmish, many shot. Too many! At least rapid shot comes for free with the ranger levels. In either case, your roleplaying hook is to make him a Zilchus worshipper who's a tightwad and doesn't like to use up his arrows very quickly. :AMN:
Mithrus 04-15-07, 11:09 PM	With all this talk about using guided shot to negate cover, I suppose I'm in the minority that just expects cover and is waiting for improved precise shot ;) My archer is 11th now (IPS next level, woot!), and getting 2 levels in Wildrunner early pushed my attack bonus high enough that I typically will hit even with cover with most of my shots (even with my last iterative I usually hit 25-50% of the time). Getting the Woodland Archer feat instead of taking caster levels for 1 spell (for the most part) seems like a better solution. But then again, I prefer rapid shot over manyshot, which also seems to be in the minority ;) YMMV.
clik_ml 04-16-07, 12:16 AM	I have a fairly standard Ehlonna Pious Templar archer in play, Deep Halfling (I play lots of halflings, as a rule) 13/16/14/10/14/8 1) Rgr1 (PBS) 2) Barb1 3) Ftr1 (Precise Shot, True Believer) 4) Rgr2 (Rapid Shot) 5) Ftr2 (Weapon Focus-Longbow) 6) PiousTemp1 (Extra Rages) 7) PiousTemp2 8) PiousTemp3 (Weapon Spec-Longbow) 9) PiousTemp4 (Ranged Weapon Mastery-pierce, undecided feat) aaaand future levels are hazy on what they'll be up to. Might get a decent animal companion mount with Beast Master+Wolf Lord+Natural Bond, might go more Pious Templar with crafting feats. Lots of ways to go. A more off-the-wall archer that I want to start if I ever wind up playing more would be a dragon disciple archer with the intent of making use of the unlimited strength bow access we now have available. Deep Halfling 14/16/14/10/8/12 1) Bard1 (PBS) 2) Ftr1 (Precise Shot) 3) Barb1 (Extra Rage, +4 str mod) 4) Ftr2 (Rapid Shot)+1 str bump 5) Bard2 6) Dragon Disc1 (Reckless Rage, +5 str mod) 7) Dragon Disc2 (+6 str mod) 8) Dragon Disc3 (+7 str mod) +1 str bump 9) Dragon Disc4 (Weapon Focus, +8 str mod) 10) Ftr3 11) Ftr4 (Weapon Spec) 12) Ftr5 (Ranged Weapon Mastery) +1 str bump (to go with inherent boost if ever found) 13) Ftr6 (Imp Precise) 14) Ftr7 15) Ftr8 (Many Shot, Imp Rapid Shot) Notion being that with a +4 strength belt at level 9, the archer can be packing a +10 strength bow as a halfling, and +2 bardic music to boot. At level 11-12 damage escalates some more. A pre-magic +16 or so damage per arrow is nothing to sneeze at, unless you're allergic to killing stuff. The biggest irritant I see for a super strength bow user is that you have many bow swaps over your career, which does not lend itself towards putting much magic on your bow until late in the career when strength is maxxed out... unless you are happy buying one monster bow early and taking the -2 attack penalty to not use it up to full power. This particular build concept has seen lots of iterations by me from having 10 dragon disciple levels (self-dubbed "the strongest halfling alive" build), to not having any barbarian levels, to having up to 3rd level bard spells, to tweaks on the point buy... and this is only one of my current favorites. Without a doubt, any iteration of these builds would be stronger as a human or wood elf or somesuch, but I must have my deep halflings... my many, many deep halflings. Most glaring omission to each archer build is the lack of power attack/quick draw for punishing bad guys who won't let me use a bow near them. With a potential +10 or greater strength mod, two-handed weapon + power attack seems so danged tempting at times.
clannagh 04-16-07, 12:33 AM	With all this talk about using guided shot to negate cover, I suppose I'm in the minority that just expects cover and is waiting for improved precise shot ;) My archer is 11th now (IPS next level, woot!), and getting 2 levels in Wildrunner early pushed my attack bonus high enough that I typically will hit even with cover with most of my shots (even with my last iterative I usually hit 25-50% of the time). Getting the Woodland Archer feat instead of taking caster levels for 1 spell (for the most part) seems like a better solution. But then again, I prefer rapid shot over manyshot, which also seems to be in the minority ;) YMMV. my theory is i am hovering directly over them about 30' up they are not getting any cover unless they are in an unusually heavy forest :)
Maesto 04-16-07, 09:09 AM	The Complete Warrior - "Divine Might"(?) can be used to make a fun build that's charisma based. It's possible to get a decent bonus to damage, and with a couple of paladin levels, you end up with good saves.
Lightblade 04-16-07, 12:32 PM	You do the Swift Hunter + Improved Skirmish combo of scout4/rgr2 then go into Order of the Bow Initiate. The idea is that when you move you still do a lot of damage with a single shot because you're getting skirmish and improved precision and many shot. I don't think you can combine Manyshot with OotBI, since they're both standard actions. The problem with either build is that you don't have enough feats to pull it off. =( To sum up, you WANT: point blank shot, precise shot, swift hunter, improved skirmish, penetrating shot, improved critical, rapid reload, weapon focus, improved skirmish, many shot. Too many! At least rapid shot comes for free with the ranger levels. :AMN: If you're taking Swift Hunter, sticking with the ranger levels will land you Manyshot at 6th. Both Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish can be taken as a scout's bonus feat at 4th. By 10th level, an elf ranger6/scout4 can have PBS,Precise, Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, and Improved Crit,plus Rapid Shot, and Manyshot from ranger. If you're a human instead, you've got yet another feat.
solbergb 04-16-07, 12:46 PM	Fair enough. Have you ever had encounters where doing damage at more than 2 or so range increments or so was useful, though? It seems like they'd be few and far between. My archer runs into one about 1 in 3 modules, where the DM looks in awe as he guns down things from 1000' away via guided shot. Bad guys need full cover to escape, or to endure several rounds of full attacks to truly get out of range. Between that and the fast summoned monsters his druid daughter send out in pursuit, very few enemies escape either. Aside from that though...I've had cavalry encoutners on open plains where I start picking off horses from a couple "run" actions away, a case where I was shooting gryphons from the safety of the ground while an aeriel combat was going on 1000' up, a case where a fortification had cleared ground for 600'...not enough, and a sorceress who thought her fireballs could be launched with impunity from far, far away. You get the idea. Long range fire with potent damage can really take the enemy out of the game. As for cover - improved precise shot comes for my guy at level 12. I had guided shot from level 7. That's 1/3 of my career where I can avoid cover and other archers who wait can't. It's made a huge difference just in the L7-8 range. Not to mention defeating 20% concealment. And yeah. Ranged Weapon Mastery was all the lovin my archer needed. That and access to aquatic longbows. Doing 1d8+5 damage per shot at a 30' range increment (150' no penalty with guided shot) is a whole lot better than taking -2/5' with my normal bow and needing arrow mind to avoid AOO's underwater.
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-07, 02:36 PM	My archer runs into one about 1 in 3 modules, where the DM looks in awe as he guns down things from 1000' away via guided shot. Yeah, there's encounters which start with 'you see a dust cloud on the horizon' and the party just waits to engage it because the cost of doing so is too high at such a distance. Unfortunately, I won't have Guided Shot until 13th level or so for my archer. Sigh...when I finally hit Ranger 4 with my build.
trollbill 04-16-07, 03:00 PM	Yeah, there's encounters which start with 'you see a dust cloud on the horizon' and the party just waits to engage it because the cost of doing so is too high at such a distance. Unfortunately, I won't have Guided Shot until 13th level or so for my archer. Sigh...when I finally hit Ranger 4 with my build. The only encounters I can remember starting at this much range always involved encounters you were never really sure about as hostile until they got a lot closer. If you go around shooting at every speck on the horizon, odds are things will end badly for your character.
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-07, 04:02 PM	The only encounters I can remember starting at this much range always involved encounters you were never really sure about as hostile until they got a lot closer. If you go around shooting at every speck on the horizon, odds are things will end badly for your character. It generally depends on how your DM plays by the rules or not. Unless that speck is trying to hide, you don't have to make a spot check to figure out what it is. You have line of sight - you can therefore target it with arrows and spells.
trollbill 04-16-07, 04:25 PM	I still can't think of any situations this would have worked that I have experienced. If I hear a DM tell me I spot a group of men at 2,100 feet distance and they are advancing towards me with weapons drawn and blood in their eyes like they are ready to attack, I call 'BS.' Even in the middle of enemy terratory it is usually a bad idea to shoot at everything that moves. Can you cite specific examples when this sort of thing actually worked? The only time I ever fired at longbow at more than 2 range increments in a RPGA mod was in an LG mod where a hidden goblin escaped us and broke cover 1,000 feet away to run. I hit him with a True Stiked arrow.
Mommy was an Orc 04-16-07, 05:22 PM	Can you cite specific examples when this sort of thing actually worked? The only time I ever fired at longbow at more than 2 range increments in a RPGA mod was in an LG mod where a hidden goblin escaped us and broke cover 1,000 feet away to run. I hit him with a True Stiked arrow. Several - there was a castle that needed to be charged. Flying monsters of obvious hostile nature. My archer at 1st level killed 1 of 2 hippogriffs in an APL 2 mod before it even got to us. And the DM was openly wondering why I was even bothering to shoot at it given the range increment. Yes, if they're humanoid, there's a bit more of an issue - you see a cat with three heads and razor sharp teeth running in your direction, it is a more clear. I have to emphasize here - a lot of mods don't actually set the encounter distance, the DM just assumes it is within mat distance.
solbergb 04-16-07, 05:30 PM	The only encounters I can remember starting at this much range always involved encounters you were never really sure about as hostile until they got a lot closer. If you go around shooting at every speck on the horizon, odds are things will end badly for your character. That's what the spot check of +19 is for, to read the heraldry on the livery of the charging cavalry :). A high spot check it to archers what armor class is for somebody who advertises himself as a tank. It isn't optional if you want to actually use your weapon outside of point blank range. At least half the situations though were against flyers, who have a hard time approaching under cover and are pretty obviously dangerous if you know the type. "I spy with my little eye a green dragon approaching. Dragons are color coded for our convenience...." In one case, it was a military situation and there were pennants and such to identify which army was which. In another, an aeriel scout in the party spotted them setting up an ambush, and in another, that scout got a flight of arrows launched at it from the opposition. In the case of the sorceress, the fiery streak that fireball leaves from your position gave away the hex to shoot into. She made the mistake of not moving after she fired and I'm real good at shooting into concealment. Then there are the boat encounters. There are enough purple and yellow sailed ships advertising that they are bad guys out there. A little accurate long range archery can really interfere with their nefarious plans. Although mostly people prefer to use atmospheric conditions to 'sneak up' with a boat, or to pretend to be on the same side as the pirates, rather than risk a ship-to-ship conflict, much to the disappointment of my archer. We did do one though where we ran a blocade and most of the party was doing "sailor stuff" to help get through, but the GM ruled that me picking off the helmsman of the enemy ships contributed as much as a decent profession sailor skill roll... And you know, these days I have a merciful bow. I have more margin for error.
copper_wyrmling 04-16-07, 06:08 PM	I haven't seen many encounters that could realistically be fought at long range - however, of late I've been playing a number of games with GMs who have to be asked, "Wait, so HOW did the Huge monsters appear next to us? Shouldn't they show up further back?" I've seen a ship-to-ship encounter that my sorcerer happily nuked with Enlarged fireballs. I've seen an encounter that was designed for the enemy archers to have fun (they had a fortified position in the middle of 600ft of open ground): our archers probably would've enjoyed that as well, if we'd had any on that table. Apart from that... not much. That said, my high-level PCs have rarely had issues with chase scenes (bad guys either teleport or die, there's not much middle ground), my cleric doesn't have a lot of long-range options, and while my sorc does have long-range nukes, she doesn't have a good Spot check and usually the rest of her party is pestering her to teleport them into close range anyway, or they're on phantom steeds and can close really fast ;) So I may be underestimating the potential frequency of these situations. Yes, if they're humanoid, there's a bit more of an issue - you see a cat with three heads and razor sharp teeth running in your direction, it is a more clear. You'd be surprised... I remember one encounter where we spotted a two-headed mammoth lumbering towards us from about 400ft away. The sorcerer and the wizard said, "So, we should fireball-fry it from here, and if it gets too close, we'll go flying and continue to blast it from the air." The archer said, "Sounds good to me. I'll shoot arrows." The melee guy said, "But maybe it's friendly!" (The guy playing the cleric was tired and wasn't contributing much.) Everyone else gave the melee fighter disbelieving looks. "It's a MAMMOTH." "But it has two heads! It's obviously a special mammoth. Maybe it's intelligent! We shouldn't kill a potentially intelligent creature without trying to talk to it first." The spellcasters exchanged highly dubious glances. "You want to go TALK to it? 'Cause we're not getting within charge range of that thing." Melee guy: "Fine, I'LL go talk to it. You guys can stay right here." Spellcasters: "Uh. You do that. Let us give you a Fly spell first, okay? We'll hold off on the fireballs until after it attacks you." Fighter moves forward. Spellcasters move back. Fighter gets within charge range, and... Spellcasters: "Yep. Time for the fireballs, now."
Howie23 04-16-07, 08:03 PM	You'd be surprised... I remember one encounter where we spotted a two-headed mammoth lumbering towards us from about 400ft away. Ah, I remember that encounter fondly. That's the one where my spot monkey archer never saw the mammoth until it was 50' away with no terrain. After the baleful polymorph, the discussion was about wild empathy and a subsequent break enchantment. David
pimeister 04-17-07, 01:34 AM	I am currently leveling a ranger3/fighter2/wildrunner2/cragtop archer 5 build. Honestly Cragtop archer is a personal favorite of mine and definitely not game-breaking. but if you hit a battlefield interactive, you are god. As for the extreme range discussion, identifiable targets of mine at over 1000 feet included griffons with riders flying out of a castle of IUZ, winged demons we were ordered to intercept (this one was particularly nice. We were told to choose our encounter distance. They were not hiding, and had a rather recognizeable signature. Of course there is always the "Attack a fort" mission that it could come up in. I just want to build an archer that answers "I start shooting it for no penalty from 2475 feet away" when a DM asks "At what range will you start attacking?"
trollbill 04-17-07, 10:16 AM	Maybe you guys already ruined it for archers in my region. You'd think all of these situations would apply, but... That's what the spot check of +19 is for, to read the heraldry on the livery of the charging cavalry :). A high spot check it to archers what armor class is for somebody who advertises himself as a tank. It isn't optional if you want to actually use your weapon outside of point blank range. Last time I had a mod with cavalry galloping in my direction with livery at a distance and we had been told they belonged to a group of bad guys, we'd been mislead to believe were bad. The only clue we had they weren't was the fact they were galloping towards us instead of away like we would have expected if they had actually done what they were accused of. At least half the situations though were against flyers, who have a hard time approaching under cover and are pretty obviously dangerous if you know the type. "I spy with my little eye a green dragon approaching. Dragons are color coded for our convenience...." Last module with flyers I ran: Flyers use attack chopper tactics of flying behind treelines and low ridges on an open plain until they pop up within a round of movement. Module before that one: Flyers dive out of the smoke of a forest fire one round away. Module before that one: Flyers come diving over a mountain ridge. Actually had two rounds to shoot before they got there but I had a meleer so I just stood in front of the ranged attackers and readied an attack. In one case, it was a military situation and there were pennants and such to identify which army was which. In another, an aeriel scout in the party spotted them setting up an ambush, and in another, that scout got a flight of arrows launched at it from the opposition. You'd think BIs would be great for this, but I haven't been in one that let me get more than one round of prep time before the enemy was on us. In the case of the sorceress, the fiery streak that fireball leaves from your position gave away the hex to shoot into. She made the mistake of not moving after she fired and I'm real good at shooting into concealment. On the plus side, I suppose, I haven't had a mod that made us deal with long ranged artillery. Medium ranged, yes, but not long. Then there are the boat encounters. There are enough purple and yellow sailed ships advertising that they are bad guys out there. A little accurate long range archery can really interfere with their nefarious plans. Although mostly people prefer to use atmospheric conditions to 'sneak up' with a boat, or to pretend to be on the same side as the pirates, rather than risk a ship-to-ship conflict, much to the disappointment of my archer. We did do one though where we ran a blocade and most of the party was doing "sailor stuff" to help get through, but the GM ruled that me picking off the helmsman of the enemy ships contributed as much as a decent profession sailor skill roll... Last ship to ship encounter: In the fog at night. One before that: In the middle of enemy territory and didn't want to alert other ships in the area so we had to silence the enemy crew quickly at close quarters. One before that: mercenary captain we recruited to chase after the bad guy's ship refused to let us engage at range because he was afraid the bad guys would retaliate and damage his ship. One before that: In a thunderstorm against a ship flying the colors of our own navy.
echoota 04-17-07, 02:35 PM	To the original poster... I've been playing an archer in which I've taken a lot of advice from Mommy's builds. I've got two levels of monk now in the build and I have to say that all of the abilities of those two levels have paid off very well already. Right now I'm Ranger 2/Monk 2/Fighter 1 and most of the time I'm just plugging away with rapid shot as much as possible. Within my home group circle I've become in some ways the anchor character for the whole party, as I just stick to the back and consistently pump damage into whatever is required and quite often saving other character's lives with my "artillery" coming in when needed. However, we are starting to do more APL 6 stuff and weird situations are arising now. Where the archery just doesn't work as well. Being able to jump into a grapple at a crittical point to lock out the spellcaster, or just hold a brute down so that the others can get at the monster properly. I've had to grapple to subdue wich was very easy. So on top of the benefits I'v also enjoyed good old fireballs. They go off and I do some kind of matrix bullet time move and avoid the whole blast. We all pick each other up afterwards and recreate the scene at the end of Ghostbusters when staypuff blew up. The rest of the crew kept asking each other how they were fine, as they were all covered in marshmallow. Then Bill Murray's character emerges from some hallways he hid in. He comes up and joins the unit, they ask him and he says "I'm fine" amd he isn't coated marshamallo all over his body. In one istance there is this super boss who has a bow and he let it unleash on our party cleric. That one shot nearly dropped our half-orc cleric. The rest of the party was just wrapping up in the back of the room with some of this superguys's toddies. So with the cleric almost bent over to two with zero, I begin yelling at the boss, waving my hands and pointing to my check, yelling out "If you wanna fight, fight ME! Well, he pull up the nasty bow he'd been using and took aim. Hit! And as the damage is being roll, "arrow diflected" pwn! That time gave the cleric to heal up the uber fighter who could then charge in and power attak the ctreature back to wherever it belongs. It's been a lot of fun playing this guy, I've enjoyed being the one who saves the day either through ranged fire or by using monk skills. Next thing is to go into Pios Templar and be this wrathful archer of Ehlonna.
bradoch 04-17-07, 11:12 PM	I had a idea for an archer build cross my mind that i'm exploring. It's ranger 6, horizon walker 9. this gives me rapid shot and many shot for free, attack and damage bonuses to several types of creatures(plains, hills, forest, desert, firey plane, cold plane, shifting plane, cavernous plane,marsh) plus extra skill enhancements to the important scout/ranger guy, and the extra fire + cold resistance 20. also tremor sense at 30ft. so invisible monsters don't get the drop on me anymore. so suddenly fireballs and cones of cold really aren't as scary anymore, but the best trick is the dim door every 1d4 rounds, cast at my character level. what's worse than an archer that can teleport out of sight and then be smacking you with arrows from everywhere? :)
clik_ml 04-18-07, 12:09 AM	but the best trick is the dim door every 1d4 rounds, cast at my character level. what's worse than an archer that can teleport out of sight and then be smacking you with arrows from everywhere? While I often poo-poo sticking monk levels into an archer build, it can be especially synergistic with a horizon walker who intends to get the dim door ability since that sets you up for fun with the Sun School feat from Complete Warrior, which can help when you need to grapple instead of pierce an opponent. So 2 Ranger/2 Monk/1 Ranger/6 Horizon Walker isn't a bad walk either. You lose the free Many Shot and wind up burning a feat not on archery (retraining a level 9 feat for level 11 when Sun School becomes interesting), but it's not too shabby since it gives some non-archery schticks as well. I'd probably be tempted to ditch Horizon Walker after 6 levels since everything seems like denoument after getting dimension door.
ezreal2001 04-18-07, 09:37 AM	You'd be surprised... I remember one encounter where we spotted a two-headed mammoth lumbering towards us from about 400ft away. The sorcerer and the wizard said, "So, we should fireball-fry it from here, and if it gets too close, we'll go flying and continue to blast it from the air." The archer said, "Sounds good to me. I'll shoot arrows." The melee guy said, "But maybe it's friendly!" (The guy playing the cleric was tired and wasn't contributing much.) Everyone else gave the melee fighter disbelieving looks. "It's a MAMMOTH." "But it has two heads! It's obviously a special mammoth. Maybe it's intelligent! We shouldn't kill a potentially intelligent creature without trying to talk to it first." The spellcasters exchanged highly dubious glances. "You want to go TALK to it? 'Cause we're not getting within charge range of that thing." Melee guy: "Fine, I'LL go talk to it. You guys can stay right here." Spellcasters: "Uh. You do that. Let us give you a Fly spell first, okay? We'll hold off on the fireballs until after it attacks you." Fighter moves forward. Spellcasters move back. Fighter gets within charge range, and... Spellcasters: "Yep. Time for the fireballs, now." Actually. No one cast fly on the mellee guy...who was rescued only to wake up the Cryohydra.
copper_wyrmling 04-18-07, 11:25 AM	Actually. No one cast fly on the mellee guy...who was rescued only to wake up the Cryohydra. I most certainly did cast Fly on Ashmoore, I remember it clearly :) He got charged, gored, and tossed; he made a tactical withdrawal using flight. The GM called the combat once it became apparent that we weren't going to come down and fight it in melee, since it had no ranged attacks. Ashmoore waking up the cryohydra wasn't nearly as funny as Swifty's unexpected close encounter with the beholder later in the game ;)
solbergb 04-18-07, 11:49 AM	There is regional variation on whether an archer can use his range. I've heard this before, I just have yet to visit those regions I guess. I've seen a number of contrived excuses to start encounters at close range (the one I enjoyed the most was the templated T-Rex sneaking up in a hurricane in dense foliage providing total concealment till he got close - about the only way we could avoid hearing the blundering was a hurricane) But while those happen, when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. It's kind of like reminding everybody to use the bardsong. I remind the GM about the high spot skills, the familiar on overwatch with nearly as high spot skills, the blindsense, the high LISTEN checks too (for monsters that aren't stationary) scent on the party animals, etc. Most GM's are fairminded and will take all that into account if you point it out. I also do something other archers don't do much...I sometimes take point, far enough ahead of the rest of the party that their noise doesn't interfere with my stealth, and try to spot the encounters BEFORE they spot us, or at best when they are assuming we're still a ways off by the noise my companions are making. Sometimes that backfires (darn treents look just like trees till they trample you) but I've opened the range on several encounters that way. I think my favorite ranged encounter though was when I spotted three rogue/rangers setting up an ambush from outside of sneak range. For the first two rounds, I was the only one who could see them, even when party members were right next to the bush they were hiding in and I was directing fire like this "Swing at the bush I just shot"! Spotting rogues in ambush outside of 30' is just good fun :)
astromist 04-23-07, 01:32 AM	I thought a pure human fighter archer pc would be fun, but its probly a bad idea. Plus I don't want to hear "why arn't you in front defending us" :P.
Timlagor 04-23-07, 12:08 PM	I'm going for the Pure Fighter Wood Elf Archer myself.
Lupo 04-23-07, 05:18 PM	I thought a pure human fighter archer pc would be fun, but its probly a bad idea. Plus I don't want to hear "why arn't you in front defending us" :P. archers are one of the classes that seldom have too few feats, it is more a question "how do i get even MORE damage out" (if the build is somehow correct). the archetypical mixture of four ranger and two fighter levels - or now two ranger with four fighter levels to qualify for weapon spec. and ranged weapon mastery - with any suitable prestige classes that are more a matter of taste then a real need - just brings enough BOOM and feats to get almost everything needed. so the human bonus feat is not as needed as with several other builds. still an human archer build can be manageable, and your con isn't as down as the "standard" woodsy elf and your intelligence plus human bonus point can be used to keep your tracking abilities AND some other skills up to max. and with the now open access to standard stat boosters, you can more easily switch to fulfill a frontliners duties at least sometimes in times of dire need. ciao martin m.
astromist 04-24-07, 01:01 AM	Thanks Lupo, I may just try the fighter after all. I should be a good back up tank when the table dosn't have one.
Munchausen 04-24-07, 03:26 PM	I think that the Scouts are great. I myself have a Wood Elf Scout(1)/Ranger(1) and plan on going back to scout at lvl 3. Designed mostly for range, but still does ok if need be at Melee. Skill wise has most of the Rogue skills with a dash of other skills to widen the scouts use. Not sure what PrC I plan on aiming for.. just having fun with the growth of the character itself, not just the #'s on the page.
Howie23 04-25-07, 12:34 AM	I remind the GM about the high spot skills, the familiar on overwatch with nearly as high spot skills, the blindsense, the high LISTEN checks too (for monsters that aren't stationary) scent on the party animals, etc. Most GM's are fairminded and will take all that into account if you point it out. This is my experience, too. I run around at times can spot invisibles, and make a point of telling DMs in advance so they can plan ahead. The key is making sure everyone is on the same page about what is possible. David
Timlagor 04-25-07, 11:02 AM	Has anyone seen a Scout above about APL6 yet?
Bold 04-25-07, 11:37 AM	I think that the Scouts are great. I myself have a Wood Elf Scout(1)/Ranger(1) and plan on going back to scout at lvl 3. Designed mostly for range I'm not sure if I understand the use of Scout in an archer build. Since archers typically do less damage per hit than the equivalent front-line power attacker, they have to make up for it by shooting more arrows and by doing everything possible to increase the damage per shot. The latter can be achieved with a high STR (e.g. wood elf with 18 STR) and Weapon Specialization + Ranged Weapon Mastery (e.g. four levels of fighter). But for the former, you pretty much need rapid shot and iterative attacks. If you're a scout, to take advantage of the Skirmish damage you need to move at least 10', so that precludes a full attack. It can be useful for those time when you must move and are thus limited to a standard action for your attack, but it seems like one could accomplish comparable bonus damage on a single attack with Manyshot, or OotBI's Ranged Precision. Am I missing something?
Sieylianna 04-25-07, 12:18 PM	Am I missing something? No. I keep pointing out that scouts don't make good archers and people keep creating builds around the combination. Ed
Timlagor 04-25-07, 02:52 PM	You are missing something Bold. 1) You can Manyshot and apply Skirmish damage (though only once) 2) There are ways to move 10' and still have a full ranged attack (though not many) 3) The new feats help a lot since you can get more bonus damage and apply it to previously immune enemies. I still don't think Scout Archers are good but it's possible that they are sufficiently good: don't forget the skills they bring to the table. I haven't seen or heard of a Scout Archer above about level 4 yet though. I'm not really convinced the Scout is actually any good for anything though the Scout 1/Wizard-or-Warmage idea looks viable.
Lightblade 04-25-07, 03:07 PM	but it seems like one could accomplish comparable bonus damage on a single attack with Manyshot, or OotBI's Ranged Precision. Am I missing something? Only that you can both Skirmish and Manyshot, or Skirmish and OotBI, although the latter precludes you from advancing skirmish damage. Timlagor: I've got an archer that just hit Scout3/Ranger3. He'll have to be my APL 8 character this year (my high level just hit 11 and is low on TUs, and the only other character i have above 2nd will be playing RHoD this year.) The next few levels will be interesting... Here's attack and damage on a single shot vs rapidshooing. I am taking account Point Blank Shot, since skirmish attacks need to happen within 30 feet anyway. 6th: +11: d8 + 2d6 + 5 vs +9/+9: d8 + 5 7th: +12 d8 + 2d6 + 5 vs +10/+10/+5: d8 + 5 8th: +13 d8 + 2d6 + 5 vs +11/+11/+6: d8 + 5 9th: +10 2d8 + 3d6 + 10 vs +12/+12/+7: d8 + 5 10th: +11 2d8 + 5d6 + 10 vs +13/+13/+8 d8 + 5 It looks to me like I might be better off not bothering with the skirmish damage and full attacking at levels 7 and 8. At 9th, Manyshot and the extra d6 of skirmish make it attractive once again. At 10th, i take Scout 4 for the Improved Skirmish feat. (I'm thinking about Improved Critical as my base 9th level feat. Other ideas? I was thinking about Craft Wonderous, but as i'd still need scrolls at that level it seemed a bit silly) Timlagor: As for skills, I'm bringing Disable Device to the table. Hmm, maybe Tactile Trapsmith might be a good feat at 9th...
tapelib 04-25-07, 04:05 PM	My character is a marshal/archer build. I saw him as a back-line pretty-boy character, buffing the party with his now (+5 minor/+2 major auras), but not having the stats to tank up front, so I built him to contribute his damage from the back-line. He even bought Sharpshooter, to half the inevitable cover mods he gets from shooting through the fighters into the teeth of the almost killed bad guys, and killing them. So far, it's working okay. He's light on damage from not yet getting any really great bow enchantments, but that should change in a level or two. Atum Neheb'Kau, the Famous Abbor'Alz hillfolk Adventurer's Guide :}>
Timlagor 04-26-07, 01:37 PM	You shouldn't really be comparing your Skirmish damage with your volley attack but with the volley attack of someone who didn't bother with the Scout levels (they have more BAB if nothing else but could well have Weapon Mastery for an extra 4 damage per shot).