Arcane Trickster - Retrain & 15th Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Trickster - Retrain & 15th Level [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Monkey76
02-14-08, 10:47 AM I haven't played my Arcane Trickster since before PH2, Complete Champion, Complete Scoundrel, and Complete Mage. My trickster is mainly a hybrid ranged touch blaster and super rogue (superior Search, Disable, Hide, MS). He is almost never adjacent to his foe. His feats include:

H: Improved Initiative
Bonus: Scribe Scroll
1: Point Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
5: Wiz bonus - CWI
6: Practiced Spellcaster
9: Empower Spell
12:Quicken Spell
15: ?

Metamagic Rods:
Lesser Quicken
Extend
Empower
Lesser Maximize

What should I retrain? What are the new great feats have you used? I think Quicken Spell was a mistake because it eats up precious 6th level slots to quicken a mere 2nd level spell.

What should I select for 15th level?

Is the Complete Arcane version of Split Ray still the current one?

Thanks for the advice.
JamesMaissen
02-14-08, 03:16 PM I haven't played my Arcane Trickster since before PH2, Complete Champion, Complete Scoundrel, and Complete Mage.

What should I select for 15th level?

Well first and foremost assuming you have 4 ranks in sense motive (as I'm sure you have the rest of the prereqs) I'd take Unseen Seer1 as your 15th level instead of Arcane Trickster7. I'd trade a 2nd impromptu sneak attack for +2 WILL save, +2 skill points and +1d6 sneak attack.

As to feats you likely will want to retrain quicken spell seeing as you invested in a lesser rod of it.

Are you a specialist wizard or a generalist?

-James
Monkey76
02-14-08, 09:17 PM My trickster has five ranks in Sense Motive for the synergy. So, Unseen Seer is open - it sounds like a great choice.

What do you suggest instead of Quicken?

My trickster is a Diviner with Enchantment blocked because it doesn't help his ray heavy style much.
jstorrie
02-15-08, 04:31 AM The CArc Split Ray is still the current Split Ray, yes.

Chain Spell might be an okay choice–can you Chain Unluck? You have Unluck, right?
Monkey76
02-15-08, 10:43 AM Chain Spell might be an okay choice–can you Chain Unluck? You have Unluck, right?

Yes, I have access to Unluck and I like the idea. However, as a third level spell being used offensively at higher levels, I think the save would be easily made. Generally, I'd rather cast an offensive spell that I am fairly certain will take effect (no Save or Save with a 5th or 6th level spell).:cool:

Do you have good experience with it working at higher levels?

Regardless, a good idea jstorrie, I just think it would be better for a pure wizard that gets 6th level spells a bit earlier.:)

Thank you for the confirmation on the Split Ray. I'm pretty sure I will use that on Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Clumsiness.
Timlagor
02-15-08, 02:10 PM With RoE you can also Empower them through your Rod ;)
copperwyrmling
02-15-08, 06:24 PM I'm sure you already know this, but you realize that if you split an empowered ray of enfeeblement and direct both rays at the same target then they don't stack, right? They overlap, so you take the larger penalty, but you won't get (2d6+10)*1.5 Str penalty on a single target. It is very useful for debuffing two melee monsters at once though ;)
Monkey76
02-16-08, 12:01 PM I'm sure you already know this, but you realize that if you split an empowered ray of enfeeblement and direct both rays at the same target then they don't stack, right? ;)

Yes, they definitely don't stack. I am also thinking about Quickened split ray of enfeeblement followed with a split ray of exhaustion or other impressive combinations... but that isn't my question.

So, my question was what feats would be good for the retrain of Quicken and 15th level? So, any suggestions other than Split Ray?
Timlagor
02-16-08, 01:13 PM RoE can be good against anything with equipment as well as all melee critters. (and the GM will love working out encumbrance :D)
Lomiat
02-16-08, 10:57 PM Yes, they definitely don't stack. I am also thinking about Quickened split ray of enfeeblement followed with a split ray of exhaustion or other impressive combinations... but that isn't my question.

So, my question was what feats would be good for the retrain of Quicken and 15th level? So, any suggestions other than Split Ray?

You may want to consider Trans-dimensional Spell to improve your chances of hitting incorporeals and of getting your battlefield control (Evard's, etc.) to stick.

I'm not certain what the pre-reqs are for Spellwarp Sniper or what benefit it grants at 1st level, but it's designed to make rays go boom. Potentially, you could Split Ray the rays you warp with the class. (I don't know off the top of my head.)

There are also the typical caster options: Arcane Mastery (take 10 on CL checks), Alacritous Cogitation (full-round action to fill an empty spell slot and cast), Extend Spell (your buffs).
magebeast
02-16-08, 11:43 PM You may want to consider Trans-dimensional Spell to improve your chances of hitting incorporeals and of getting your battlefield control (Evard's, etc.) to stick.

I'm not certain what the pre-reqs are for Spellwarp Sniper or what benefit it grants at 1st level, but it's designed to make rays go boom. Potentially, you could Split Ray the rays you warp with the class. (I don't know off the top of my head.)

There are also the typical caster options: Arcane Mastery (take 10 on CL checks), Alacritous Cogitation (full-round action to fill an empty spell slot and cast), Extend Spell (your buffs).

If I remember correctly, only Spontaneous Spellwarp Snipers can split ray spellwarped spells because the reflex-save spells turned rays aren't actually rays until you cast them.
copperwyrmling
02-17-08, 12:46 AM If I remember correctly, only Spontaneous Spellwarp Snipers can split ray spellwarped spells because the reflex-save spells turned rays aren't actually rays until you cast them.

Doesn't spellwarp sniper have a note saying that you can apply metamagic to the warped spells so long as the metamagic can legally be applied to ray spells? I personally would let a wizard / spellwarp sniper prepare a Split Ray Fireball - if they choose to cast it unwarped then the metamagic just has no effect.
Koushiro
02-17-08, 03:07 AM Spell warp Sniper lets you do that if you turn the spell into a ray spell.

Quicken spell isn't at all a bad feat, gives you access to the QTSD! Quicken True Strike Disintegrate.

There are other odd rays out there too, some more or less effective. Prismatic Ray always seemed interesting and effective. Split Ray would probably be the feat to go for though.
Timlagor
02-17-08, 11:24 AM Doesn't spellwarp sniper have a note saying that you can apply metamagic to the warped spells so long as the metamagic can legally be applied to ray spells? I personally would let a wizard / spellwarp sniper prepare a Split Ray Fireball - if they choose to cast it unwarped then the metamagic just has no effect.

At best you're going to get table variation on that. I don't remember there being that much room for interpretation though.
copperwyrmling
02-17-08, 02:34 PM At best you're going to get table variation on that. I don't remember there being that much room for interpretation though.

Here's the spellwarp sniper quote. "You must decide to warp the spell as you cast it. You do not need to prepare it as a warped spell. You can apply metamagic feats as normal to the spell, so long as they can affect ray spells."
jstorrie
02-17-08, 06:19 PM The Spellwarp ability happens at time of casting, though, so again you can't Split Ray the Fireball unless you're casting it spontaneously or applying the metamagic feat with a rod. For a Wizard, Alacritous Cogitation is a potential workaround, but not advisable for this build; one level of Spellwarp Sniper would only allow you to warp first-level spells.
copperwyrmling
02-18-08, 12:49 AM The Spellwarp ability happens at time of casting, though, so again you can't Split Ray the Fireball unless you're casting it spontaneously or applying the metamagic feat with a rod.

The way I read it, you can apply metamagic feats as normal to the spell (i.e. at preparation time, for a wizard), so long as they apply to ray spells - when the spell is warped the metamagic feats kick in. That seems to me to be the literal reading of the PrC ability. Obviously, however, there will be table variation.

(Disclaimer: I don't play a spellwarp sniper, I have no PC who might by any stretch of the imagination become a spellwarp sniper at any point in the future, and all my currently-in-play arcane casters are sorcerers anyway. I have no personal stake in this, it's just how I read the rules text for the ability.)
Timlagor
02-18-08, 08:13 AM Ok I'm persuaded. I can't find anything in Split Ray saying it can only be applied to a Ray Spell (though it obviously has no effect on anything else).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Monkey76 02-14-08, 10:47 AM	I haven't played my Arcane Trickster since before PH2, Complete Champion, Complete Scoundrel, and Complete Mage. My trickster is mainly a hybrid ranged touch blaster and super rogue (superior Search, Disable, Hide, MS). He is almost never adjacent to his foe. His feats include: H: Improved Initiative Bonus: Scribe Scroll 1: Point Blank Shot 3: Precise Shot 5: Wiz bonus - CWI 6: Practiced Spellcaster 9: Empower Spell 12:Quicken Spell 15: ? Metamagic Rods: Lesser Quicken Extend Empower Lesser Maximize What should I retrain? What are the new great feats have you used? I think Quicken Spell was a mistake because it eats up precious 6th level slots to quicken a mere 2nd level spell. What should I select for 15th level? Is the Complete Arcane version of Split Ray still the current one? Thanks for the advice.
JamesMaissen 02-14-08, 03:16 PM	I haven't played my Arcane Trickster since before PH2, Complete Champion, Complete Scoundrel, and Complete Mage. What should I select for 15th level? Well first and foremost assuming you have 4 ranks in sense motive (as I'm sure you have the rest of the prereqs) I'd take Unseen Seer1 as your 15th level instead of Arcane Trickster7. I'd trade a 2nd impromptu sneak attack for +2 WILL save, +2 skill points and +1d6 sneak attack. As to feats you likely will want to retrain quicken spell seeing as you invested in a lesser rod of it. Are you a specialist wizard or a generalist? -James
Monkey76 02-14-08, 09:17 PM	My trickster has five ranks in Sense Motive for the synergy. So, Unseen Seer is open - it sounds like a great choice. What do you suggest instead of Quicken? My trickster is a Diviner with Enchantment blocked because it doesn't help his ray heavy style much.
jstorrie 02-15-08, 04:31 AM	The CArc Split Ray is still the current Split Ray, yes. Chain Spell might be an okay choice–can you Chain Unluck? You have Unluck, right?
Monkey76 02-15-08, 10:43 AM	Chain Spell might be an okay choice–can you Chain Unluck? You have Unluck, right? Yes, I have access to Unluck and I like the idea. However, as a third level spell being used offensively at higher levels, I think the save would be easily made. Generally, I'd rather cast an offensive spell that I am fairly certain will take effect (no Save or Save with a 5th or 6th level spell).:cool: Do you have good experience with it working at higher levels? Regardless, a good idea jstorrie, I just think it would be better for a pure wizard that gets 6th level spells a bit earlier.:) Thank you for the confirmation on the Split Ray. I'm pretty sure I will use that on Ray of Enfeeblement and Ray of Clumsiness.
Timlagor 02-15-08, 02:10 PM	With RoE you can also Empower them through your Rod ;)
copperwyrmling 02-15-08, 06:24 PM	I'm sure you already know this, but you realize that if you split an empowered ray of enfeeblement and direct both rays at the same target then they don't stack, right? They overlap, so you take the larger penalty, but you won't get (2d6+10)*1.5 Str penalty on a single target. It is very useful for debuffing two melee monsters at once though ;)
Monkey76 02-16-08, 12:01 PM	I'm sure you already know this, but you realize that if you split an empowered ray of enfeeblement and direct both rays at the same target then they don't stack, right? ;) Yes, they definitely don't stack. I am also thinking about Quickened split ray of enfeeblement followed with a split ray of exhaustion or other impressive combinations... but that isn't my question. So, my question was what feats would be good for the retrain of Quicken and 15th level? So, any suggestions other than Split Ray?
Timlagor 02-16-08, 01:13 PM	RoE can be good against anything with equipment as well as all melee critters. (and the GM will love working out encumbrance :D)
Lomiat 02-16-08, 10:57 PM	Yes, they definitely don't stack. I am also thinking about Quickened split ray of enfeeblement followed with a split ray of exhaustion or other impressive combinations... but that isn't my question. So, my question was what feats would be good for the retrain of Quicken and 15th level? So, any suggestions other than Split Ray? You may want to consider Trans-dimensional Spell to improve your chances of hitting incorporeals and of getting your battlefield control (Evard's, etc.) to stick. I'm not certain what the pre-reqs are for Spellwarp Sniper or what benefit it grants at 1st level, but it's designed to make rays go boom. Potentially, you could Split Ray the rays you warp with the class. (I don't know off the top of my head.) There are also the typical caster options: Arcane Mastery (take 10 on CL checks), Alacritous Cogitation (full-round action to fill an empty spell slot and cast), Extend Spell (your buffs).
magebeast 02-16-08, 11:43 PM	You may want to consider Trans-dimensional Spell to improve your chances of hitting incorporeals and of getting your battlefield control (Evard's, etc.) to stick. I'm not certain what the pre-reqs are for Spellwarp Sniper or what benefit it grants at 1st level, but it's designed to make rays go boom. Potentially, you could Split Ray the rays you warp with the class. (I don't know off the top of my head.) There are also the typical caster options: Arcane Mastery (take 10 on CL checks), Alacritous Cogitation (full-round action to fill an empty spell slot and cast), Extend Spell (your buffs). If I remember correctly, only Spontaneous Spellwarp Snipers can split ray spellwarped spells because the reflex-save spells turned rays aren't actually rays until you cast them.
copperwyrmling 02-17-08, 12:46 AM	If I remember correctly, only Spontaneous Spellwarp Snipers can split ray spellwarped spells because the reflex-save spells turned rays aren't actually rays until you cast them. Doesn't spellwarp sniper have a note saying that you can apply metamagic to the warped spells so long as the metamagic can legally be applied to ray spells? I personally would let a wizard / spellwarp sniper prepare a Split Ray Fireball - if they choose to cast it unwarped then the metamagic just has no effect.
Koushiro 02-17-08, 03:07 AM	Spell warp Sniper lets you do that if you turn the spell into a ray spell. Quicken spell isn't at all a bad feat, gives you access to the QTSD! Quicken True Strike Disintegrate. There are other odd rays out there too, some more or less effective. Prismatic Ray always seemed interesting and effective. Split Ray would probably be the feat to go for though.
Timlagor 02-17-08, 11:24 AM	Doesn't spellwarp sniper have a note saying that you can apply metamagic to the warped spells so long as the metamagic can legally be applied to ray spells? I personally would let a wizard / spellwarp sniper prepare a Split Ray Fireball - if they choose to cast it unwarped then the metamagic just has no effect. At best you're going to get table variation on that. I don't remember there being that much room for interpretation though.
copperwyrmling 02-17-08, 02:34 PM	At best you're going to get table variation on that. I don't remember there being that much room for interpretation though. Here's the spellwarp sniper quote. "You must decide to warp the spell as you cast it. You do not need to prepare it as a warped spell. You can apply metamagic feats as normal to the spell, so long as they can affect ray spells."
jstorrie 02-17-08, 06:19 PM	The Spellwarp ability happens at time of casting, though, so again you can't Split Ray the Fireball unless you're casting it spontaneously or applying the metamagic feat with a rod. For a Wizard, Alacritous Cogitation is a potential workaround, but not advisable for this build; one level of Spellwarp Sniper would only allow you to warp first-level spells.
copperwyrmling 02-18-08, 12:49 AM	The Spellwarp ability happens at time of casting, though, so again you can't Split Ray the Fireball unless you're casting it spontaneously or applying the metamagic feat with a rod. The way I read it, you can apply metamagic feats as normal to the spell (i.e. at preparation time, for a wizard), so long as they apply to ray spells - when the spell is warped the metamagic feats kick in. That seems to me to be the literal reading of the PrC ability. Obviously, however, there will be table variation. (Disclaimer: I don't play a spellwarp sniper, I have no PC who might by any stretch of the imagination become a spellwarp sniper at any point in the future, and all my currently-in-play arcane casters are sorcerers anyway. I have no personal stake in this, it's just how I read the rules text for the ability.)
Timlagor 02-18-08, 08:13 AM	Ok I'm persuaded. I can't find anything in Split Ray saying it can only be applied to a Ray Spell (though it obviously has no effect on anything else).