Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UMiskatonic 05-14-07, 12:02 PM	Hey all, I'm thinking over MY ruins character, and I'm thinking about going with a build that I've never played in LG before...an archer with a lot of strength. I know that I'm going to be a half-orc, and I'm playing around with various combinations of barbarian, ranger, and scout. I'll work out the rest of that later, it's easily done. The problem I'm having is managing STR and bow purchases. I don't want to buy a bow, and then another bow, and then a third bow as I gradually buy gloves of ogre power and bump my str at 8th level. So, has anyone else worked out an answer to this problem? Thanks, UM
Redfist 05-14-07, 12:05 PM	Start with really good str (say 18) and start off buying a regular bow (0xp PC can't afford a +4 mighty yet). Once you earn some cash, buy a +4 mighty and then make that a +1 magical at some point. Use that until you can afford to boost your strength *and* buy a new decent bow. At that point, your +4 mighty bow becomes your secondary bow in the event that your strength is drained OR your new primary bow becomes sundered. Buy your new primary bow (+6 mighty most likely). --Gordon
UMiskatonic 05-14-07, 12:15 PM	Here's my best take on it so far, I have a few other, less good options too. Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Rng 2/whatever else... 1: Point Blank Shot 3: Precise Shot R2: Rapid Shot 6: Extra Rage Str: 18 (22 when raging) Start out with either a greataxe and javelins for that first adventure, then buy a mighty longbow + 4. Use it for quite a while, and then save it. By 8th level, I'll have a Str 20 (24 when raging); which means that the previous bow is useful when I'm done raging, and that I'll need a newer, larger bow for raging + shooting, a mighty longbow +7. --------------------------------------------------------- Problem 1: Rage isn't useful for archery until 6th level at the earliest. Problem 2: It seems like gauntlets of ogre power or a belt of giant strength should be a great idea. But given that those purchases require a new bow, it seems financially counter-productive.
Bold 05-14-07, 12:58 PM	Start with really good str (say 18) and start off buying a regular bow (0xp PC can't afford a +4 mighty yet). Once you earn some cash, buy a +4 mighty and then make that a +1 magical at some point. Use that until you can afford to boost your strength *and* buy a new decent bow. At that point, your +4 mighty bow becomes your secondary bow in the event that your strength is drained OR your new primary bow becomes sundered. Buy your new primary bow (+6 mighty most likely). --Gordon This is what I'm doing with my Wood Elf archer (ranger/fighter/OotBI). I started with an 18 STR and 16 DEX, and for first level I was just a melee guy with a sword. By the time I had played some Intro mods and was second-level, I could afford my comp. lonbow (STR +4), which I'll use until I can afford a Belt of Giant Strength +4. At that point I'll get a new bow, and start to add more than just a simple +1 enhancement on it. I put my 4th-level stat bump into DEX, and I'll do the same at 8th-level. I'm doing four levels of Fighter, so that should give me Weap. Spec., and I'll take Ranged Weapon Mastery at 9th-level to further increase the damage per arrow. Within 30', even my first bow does 1d8 +8 per shot. After about 9th-level, I'll be doing 1d8 +12 per shot, plus another 1d6 or 2d6 of fire or whatever. I thought about taking Wildrunner, but I kinda' like the idea of being able to shoot arrows all day and not have to worry about when to scream, or continually replacing my bow, etc.
Redfist 05-14-07, 01:08 PM	My build is very similar although I started with a 17 dex. I also considered Wildrunner (along with Occult Slayer) but have decided instead to do the OOBI package. I did however, incorporate 2 levels of monk. Great saves, evasion, etc. at the cost of 1 BAB.
Mommy was an Orc 05-14-07, 01:57 PM	One thing to remember is that you don't have quite the same need to buy a magical bow if you have a lot higher strength. Quickdraw and maybe Brutal Throw can work out pretty well here. If you've got +3 to your Strength higher than your Dex, in a sense you're 'proficient' with exotic throwing weapons. Once you get to the point where you are plunking down major money for a bow, you retrain the feats into something more useful.
clik_ml 05-14-07, 04:09 PM	Big strength archers have 2 options. Buy lots of bows (and not even necessarily resell them... you might need them as backups afterall) or Buy a couple bows along the way, with one really big badass bow [+ maximum str mod expected ever]. The problem gets really exacerbated if you do stuff like take levels in Dragon Disciple and pick up Reckless Rage, since your strength modifier just keeps climbing higher and higher while becoming more volatile as well. I haven't done a cost-benefit test to see if the money saved by having a single big badass bow versus reselling or having many bows will outweigh the -2 attack penalty often felt... but I really do like the flavor of having a bow that no other man is strong enough to wield. My current rage archer is only level 3 so he doesn't have extra rages or his stat bump yet, but I often find myself having a choice between javelins, a MW mighty bow that I have no penalty for, and a +1 mighty bow which I currently have a penalty for (though this is not my "endgame badass bow"... I'm likely to have 3 bows in this character's career and this is bow #2). I don't find many opponents whom I have trouble hitting, which means I still pull out the magic bow even though I'm not strong enough to use it yet. Having a magic weapon at low levels has been a great boon, and I wouldn't put that off (I had to put down a bunch of shadows and wraiths in a battle interactive, and it was nice to have the option). So in practice, it seems like the money is alright for having multiple bows early (when they're not terribly expensive yet)... and I expect to have one major bow for APLs 6+.
JamesMaissen 05-14-07, 05:28 PM	The problem I'm having is managing STR and bow purchases. I don't want to buy a bow, and then another bow, and then a third bow as I gradually buy gloves of ogre power and bump my str at 8th level. So, has anyone else worked out an answer to this problem? Thanks, UM Have a weak bow that will double as your enfeeble'd bow. This will be the first bow that you make magical along the way. Then have a bow that is as high as you think that you strength is likely to get. Get used to a -2 to hit in the encounters where enemies are not top tier. Done. -James PS: And at low levels until you can afford a decent composite bow just throw javelins.
Mithreinmaethor 05-14-07, 05:44 PM	Oh just make a crossbow archer :)
UMiskatonic 05-14-07, 07:17 PM	Super idea. No one will ever expect me to beat them to death with a crossbow. They'll all be thinking 'drop prone vs. bolts', and then I'll charge 'em with my improvised club. The penalties even offset. It's a wonder no one's done this yet....
clannagh 05-14-07, 08:55 PM	Hey all, I'm thinking over MY ruins character, and I'm thinking about going with a build that I've never played in LG before...an archer with a lot of strength. I know that I'm going to be a half-orc, and I'm playing around with various combinations of barbarian, ranger, and scout. I'll work out the rest of that later, it's easily done. The problem I'm having is managing STR and bow purchases. I don't want to buy a bow, and then another bow, and then a third bow as I gradually buy gloves of ogre power and bump my str at 8th level. So, has anyone else worked out an answer to this problem? Thanks, UM At low levels buy two bows .. your normal strength and your raging strength. Do not magic either of them, the extra 1 damage is neither here nor there, just carry oil of magic weapon for the occasional DRx/magic critter. Get weapon specialisation as soon as you can. At higher levels your bow choices will depend partly on whether you decide to go stand and rapid shoot or move and many shot and also partly on what AR access you get. My archer has made her low strength bow a +1 distance bow. The logic is it suits her at low levels and at higher levels the occasional ludicrous range shot (roughly 4500' max range for her with cragtop) the extra point or two damage is not going to matter much. Her main bow over the next few levels will be a mighty +5 because thats what the AR gives her (mighty +5 bow of exit wounds and seeking)
Mithreinmaethor 05-15-07, 07:59 AM	Super idea. No one will ever expect me to beat them to death with a crossbow. They'll all be thinking 'drop prone vs. bolts', and then I'll charge 'em with my improvised club. The penalties even offset. It's a wonder no one's done this yet.... Well just for your perusal I will post 2 Crossbow Archer Builds that I am considering for the Greyhawk Ruins Plot Arc. Try not to laugh too hard Deep Halfling (S:10 D:20 C:12 I: 10 W: 10 C:8) 1 Fighter - Feat: Point Blank Shot, Bonus Feat: Precise Shot 2 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Rapid Reload 3 Fighter - Feat: Rapid Shot 4 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Crossbow Sniper 5 Fighter 6 Fighter - Feat: Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow), Bonus Feat: Weapon Specialization (Light Crossbow) 7 Fighter 8 Fighter -Bonus Feat: Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) 9 Fighter Feat: Woodland Archer 10 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Greater Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow) 11 Fighter 12 Fighter - Feat: Improved Precise Shot, Bonus Feat: Improved Critical 13 Fighter 14 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Greater Weapon Specialization (Light Crossbow) 15 Fighter - Feat: ????? **************************************** ********** Wood Elf (S:10 D:20 C:12 I:10 W:10 C:8) 1 Ranger - Feat: Point Blank Shot 2 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Precise Shot 3 Fighter - Feat: Crossbow Sniper, Bonus Feat: Rapid Reload 4 Ranger - Rapid Shot 5 Ranger 6 Wildrunner Feat: Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow) 7 Wildrunner 8 Fighter 9 Fighter - Feat: Feat: Weapon Specialization (Light Crossbow), Bonus Feat: Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) 10 Fighter 11 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Woodland Archer 12 Fighter - Feat: Improved Precise Shot 13 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Improved Critical 14 Fighter 15 Fighter - Feat: Greater Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow), Bonus Feat: ????? **************************************** ********** I am leaning more towards the Deep Halfling since well this will be a Dungeon Crawl more than likely. But both builds end up pretty much in the same spot in the end. Its just that the 1st build gets places faster
berpo 05-15-07, 12:15 PM	Wood Elf (S:10 D:20 C:12 I:10 W:10 C:8) 1 Ranger - Feat: Point Blank Shot 2 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Precise Shot 3 Fighter - Feat: Rapid Shot, Bonus Feat: Rapid Reload 4 Ranger 5 Ranger 6 Wildrunner Feat: Crossbow Sniper 7 Wildrunner 8 Fighter 9 Fighter - Feat: Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow), Bonus Feat: Weapon Specialization (Light Crossbow) 10 Fighter 11 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) 12 Fighter - Feat: Woodland Archer 13 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Improved Precise Shot 14 Fighter 15 Fighter - Feat: Manyshot, Bonus Feat: Improved Rapid Shot You should switch fighter3/ranger4 for ranger 3/fighter 4 1 Ranger - Feat: Point Blank Shot 2 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Precise Shot 3 Ranger - Bonus ranger feat (rapid shot), Rapid Reload 4 Fighter - Feat: Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow) 5 Ranger 6 Wildrunner Feat: Crossbow Sniper 7 Wildrunner 8 Fighter 9 Fighter - Feat: Weapon Specialization (Light Crossbow), Bonus Feat: Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) 10 Fighter 11 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Improved Precise Shot 12 Fighter - Feat: Woodland Archer 13 Fighter - Bonus Feat: ?? greater weapon focus ?? 14 Fighter 15 Fighter - Feat: Manyshot, Bonus Feat: Improved Rapid Shot that way you will have rapid shot free and gain so many feat sooner like improve precise shot at 11.
Bold 05-15-07, 01:16 PM	Well just for your perusal I will post 2 Crossbow Archer Builds that I am considering for the Greyhawk Ruins Plot Arc. Try not to laugh too hard Deep Halfling (S:10 D:20 C:12 I: 10 W: 10 C:8) What I've never understood about crossbow archers is where the damage comes from. Compared to the stereotypical Wood Elf fighter/ranger archer (with 18 STR and 16 DEX), the halfling crossbow archer will be +3 more to hit, but will only do 1d8 +2 (with PBS and a +1 lt. xbow) as opposed to 1d8 +6 (with PBS and +1 comp longbow, STR4). Add in STR-boosting possibilities like Rage, ability bumps at 4th/8th, and/or Belts of Giant Strength, and the difference in damage becomes even greater. Since lower damage-per-shot is the Achilles' heel for archers (especially versus critters like elementals with DR/-), I don't see the advantage of a crossbow archer, especially since you need an extra feat (Rapid Reload). If you spend another feat for Crossbow Sniper you can add in half your DEX bonus as damage, but that's another feat for an already-feat-intensive party role, and the damage increase isn't as high as a build with a good STR score. Plus, boosting DEX up to 20 to start is very expensive in the point buy. Wildrunner seems like a nice way to boost DEX (and, thus, your damage), and the beautiful thing about Crossbow Sniper is that you can keep upgrading your same crossbow over the years--no need to replace it like you would have to replace a composite longbow as your STR increases. But Wildrunner delays Weapon Specialization and Ranged Weapon Mastery for a number of levels; furthermore, if the long Greyhawk Ruins LG mods are anything like the retail WotC mods which have been adapated, they may have more encounters (and thus, fewer combats in which you would've screamed). Have you gone over the numbers to see what the average damage will be against various ACs at different levels? I'm wondering if the higher to-hit modifier will compensate for the lower damage; unfortunately, I suspect it won't. I love the concept of the crossbow archer, but it doesn't seem like the game mechanics are there to make it a viable build. My archer regularly adventures with RageCage's archer, and I know he struggled for a long time trying to work out the build for an Old West gunslinger (aka dwarven cleric crossbow archer), but ended up abandoning the crossbow angle and sticking to a bow.
kenobi65 05-15-07, 01:53 PM	the halfling crossbow archer will be +3 more to hit, but will only do 1d8 +2 (with PBS and a +1 lt. xbow) It's worse than that. The halfling's using a small light crossbow, so it's only 1d6+2.
Genghis Cohen 05-15-07, 01:57 PM	What I've never understood about crossbow archers is where the damage comes from... ...I love the concept of the crossbow archer, but it doesn't seem like the game mechanics are there to make it a viable build... I agree completely. How does a crossbow archer get off 5 shots/round at 11th level? That's where the damage comes from. The idea is to have a good chance to hit with all of yours shots. This means a high dex and the right feats and class choices. I like at least 6 levels of Ranger in any build. Why? The first 2 levels get you Rapid Shot. At 4th level, you can cast Arrow Mind. If you have 4 levels, you might as well go for 6 because this gets you Many Shot which will be needed for Improved Rapid Shot. Also, 6 levels of a full-BAB class is usually the sweet spot. I believe that wood elf is the best choice for a race. Why? Racial bonuses to strength and dexterity. It also allows for entry into Wildrunner. A +6 on dex is always nice. The most optimized builds, as I see it, will always involve a wood elf with 2 levels of Wildrunner, the ability to cast Arrow Mind (or to have two levels of OoB,) and the following feats: Ranged Weapon Mastery, Improved Precise Shot and Improved Rapid Shot.
Nutation 05-15-07, 02:55 PM	Wood Elf (S:10 D:20 C:12 I:10 W:10 C:8) You're not going for high strength, so this clearly calls for snow elf (if you have the card).
Barotrauma 05-15-07, 03:51 PM	Please take a look at this one and let me know what you think. I still need someone to explain how manyshot is that wonderful. Often seems that rapid shot or a normal shot is preferrable, especially once additional attacks are granted at higher levels (but I'm new). Wood Elf S14 D14 C14 I14 W12 C8 (eventually adding Dex+4 gloves) 1. Ranger 1 Track PBS Favored Enemy Undead 2. Ranger 2 Rapid Shot 3. Ranger 3 PS Endurance 4. Ranger 4 +1 Str 5. Barbarian 1 6. Wildrunner 1 WF Longbow 7. Wildrunner 2 8. Fighter 1 +1 Str Manyshot 9. Fighter 2 Imp RS, Imp Critical Longbow 10. Fighter 3 11. Fighter 4 Imp PS 12. Ranger 5 +1Str WS Longbow Fav En Elementals (can I also retrain manyshot here) 13. Ranger 6 Manyshot 14. Fighter 5 15. Fighter 6 Ranged Wep Master; ???? (Ranged Pin/Penetrating Shot/Power Critical) Let me know what you think. Strength bumps with Barbarian (rage), wildrunner and stat bumps would put it at over +6 for strenth, and only through +6 for composite longbow is open, right? Thanks
Bold 05-15-07, 04:04 PM	I still need someone to explain how manyshot is that wonderful. Often seems that rapid shot or a normal shot is preferrable, especially once additional attacks are granted at higher levels (but I'm new). Manyshot (or OotBI's Ranged Precision) is useful for those times when you cannot do a full-round attack action, since it's just a standard action. For example, during a suprise round, or when you have to move and then shoot, etc. S14 D14 C14 I14 W12 C8 (eventually adding Dex+4 gloves) 1. Ranger 1 Track PBS Favored Enemy Undead 2. Ranger 2 Rapid Shot 3. Ranger 3 PS Endurance 4. Ranger 4 +1 Str You're going to want Precise Shot as soon as possible. I took it at 2nd-level, and before that feat I didn't even bother shooting. It's bad enough when cover gives your targets +4 bonus to their AC; when you have to take an additional -4 penalty to your attack since you don't have Precise Shot, you're not going to be hitting much. If you mix your ranger and fighter levels, you'll have many more feats earlier in the character's life, when they're more useful. You can take Fighter as your second level and get Precise Shot, and before long you'll have Weapon Specialization and then Ranged Weapon Mastery. As mentioned in my previous comments, I'm a big fan of lots o' STR for archers. Do you really need a 14 INT, or could those points be put into STR instead? only through +6 for composite longbow is open, right? Nope, there's no limit on the STR bonus on composite bows. There used to be a limit of +4 unless you had campaign documentation, but that limitation was removed in the most recent LGCS. You can buy a comp. bow with any STR bonus you want.
Mithreinmaethor 05-15-07, 04:17 PM	I agree completely. How does a crossbow archer get off 5 shots/round at 11th level? That's where the damage comes from. The idea is to have a good chance to hit with all of yours shots. This means a high dex and the right feats and class choices. I like at least 6 levels of Ranger in any build. Why? The first 2 levels get you Rapid Shot. At 4th level, you can cast Arrow Mind. If you have 4 levels, you might as well go for 6 because this gets you Many Shot which will be needed for Improved Rapid Shot. Also, 6 levels of a full-BAB class is usually the sweet spot. I believe that wood elf is the best choice for a race. Why? Racial bonuses to strength and dexterity. It also allows for entry into Wildrunner. A +6 on dex is always nice. The most optimized builds, as I see it, will always involve a wood elf with 2 levels of Wildrunner, the ability to cast Arrow Mind (or to have two levels of OoB,) and the following feats: Ranged Weapon Mastery, Improved Precise Shot and Improved Rapid Shot. Arrow Mind is no good for a crossbow so extra levels of Ranger in the 2nd build (just to get that spell) are wasted. If it was a bow archer then yes it would be worth that further dip.
JamesMaissen 05-15-07, 04:21 PM	Please take a look at this one and let me know what you think. I still need someone to explain how manyshot is that wonderful. The answer is that it is not all that wonderful. It has a horrible 30ft range requirement that makes it sub-par. Otherwise it would be useful for times when you find yourself in a surprise round or readying to disrupt a caster. -James
Mithreinmaethor 05-15-07, 04:37 PM	What I've never understood about crossbow archers is where the damage comes from. Compared to the stereotypical Wood Elf fighter/ranger archer (with 18 STR and 16 DEX), the halfling crossbow archer will be +3 more to hit, but will only do 1d8 +2 (with PBS and a +1 lt. xbow) as opposed to 1d8 +6 (with PBS and +1 comp longbow, STR4). Add in STR-boosting possibilities like Rage, ability bumps at 4th/8th, and/or Belts of Giant Strength, and the difference in damage becomes even greater. Since lower damage-per-shot is the Achilles' heel for archers (especially versus critters like elementals with DR/-), I don't see the advantage of a crossbow archer, especially since you need an extra feat (Rapid Reload). If you spend another feat for Crossbow Sniper you can add in half your DEX bonus as damage, but that's another feat for an already-feat-intensive party role, and the damage increase isn't as high as a build with a good STR score. Plus, boosting DEX up to 20 to start is very expensive in the point buy. Wildrunner seems like a nice way to boost DEX (and, thus, your damage), and the beautiful thing about Crossbow Sniper is that you can keep upgrading your same crossbow over the years--no need to replace it like you would have to replace a composite longbow as your STR increases. But Wildrunner delays Weapon Specialization and Ranged Weapon Mastery for a number of levels; furthermore, if the long Greyhawk Ruins LG mods are anything like the retail WotC mods which have been adapated, they may have more encounters (and thus, fewer combats in which you would've screamed). Have you gone over the numbers to see what the average damage will be against various ACs at different levels? I'm wondering if the higher to-hit modifier will compensate for the lower damage; unfortunately, I suspect it won't. I love the concept of the crossbow archer, but it doesn't seem like the game mechanics are there to make it a viable build. My archer regularly adventures with RageCage's archer, and I know he struggled for a long time trying to work out the build for an Old West gunslinger (aka dwarven cleric crossbow archer), but ended up abandoning the crossbow angle and sticking to a bow. The biggest difference comes down to cost. As a STR archer progresses and gains more STR from items etc, he has to continue to sell old an old bow and get a new one to take advantage of his/her new found STR. And its hard to compare your stereotypical wood elf fighter/ranger archer in the first part with out knowing what levels you were referring to. By say 4th level the Crossbow Archer in the 1st build would be at 1d6+4 (+1 PBS, +2 Crossbow Sniper, +1 Lgt Xbow) And who wants to be stereotypical anyhow ? Without any magic items at all at 15th the poor little halfling will be: AB: +27/+22/+17 (Rapid Shot +25/+25/+20/+15) for 1d6+10 within 30' AB: +26/+21/+16 (Rapid Shot +24/+24/+19/+14) for 1d6+9 outside 30'
Mithreinmaethor 05-15-07, 04:39 PM	The answer is that it is not all that wonderful. It has a horrible 30ft range requirement that makes it sub-par. Otherwise it would be useful for times when you find yourself in a surprise round or readying to disrupt a caster. -James Unfortunately Manyshot is a prerequisite for Improved Rapid Shot if that feat floats your boat.
Mithreinmaethor 05-15-07, 04:40 PM	You're not going for high strength, so this clearly calls for snow elf (if you have the card). You know I didnt even think about that. Thanks
JamesMaissen 05-15-07, 05:07 PM	Unfortunately Manyshot is a prerequisite for Improved Rapid Shot if that feat floats your boat. Well it's basically 2 more weapon focus feats when used that way. If you have the feats to spare this way and need the hitroll then that's fine, but other feats like quickdraw, woodland archer, ranged weapon mastery (piercing) and even improved critical come to mind. -James
Bold 05-15-07, 05:13 PM	Without any magic items at all at 15th the poor little halfling will be: AB: +27/+22/+17 (Rapid Shot +27/+27/+22/+17) for 1d6+10 within 30' AB: +26/+21/+16 (Rapid Shot +26/+26/+21/+16) for 1d6+9 outside 30' Oh, I agree that at the endgame, the halfling crossbow archer will do just fine. But if I was using this build for a a tertiary/quaternary/etc. character, I'd be concerned he'd never reach the higher levels; one could play such a character through all the long Greyhawk Ruins mods and the retail Greyhawk adaptable mega-mod which follows and still never reach the higher damage. I dunno, I guess it's a difference in philosophy, and you're quite correct that there's a certain appeal in doing something different--like I said, I love the idea of the crossbow archer, even if I don't appreciate how it actual works in-game. I knew my archer was my 9th character, and I was going to play him in a restrictive regional story arc that would allow him to play only about 15 mods per year. I wanted him to be fun and effective at every level, including the first few levels. Plus, I wanted him to be effective as a melee combatant, especially at lower APLs; one of my pet peeves about archers are those who refuse to engage in melee even when they're most suited for it in a suboptimal table makeup. With full BAB, decent hitpoints, and a two-handed weapon wielded with 18 STR, I can be a frontliner in a pinch (particularly if buffed by a party of non-frontliners). It doesn't happen often, but it's been useful on more than one occassion; in fact, I've even thought about taking Power Attack. I also tried to expand the effectiveness of the character by taking Favored Enemy: Elementals to help compensate for a particularly tough DR that archers face, and I recently bought a full complement of unusual arrows types from RotW which are now open, per the most-recent LGCS (e.g. blunt arrows for non-lethal, serpentstongue arrows for slashing); as far as I know, none of these unusual ammunition types are available as bolts, unfortunately. My $0.02, anyway. Your mileage my vary, check with your physician before beginning any archery program, offer void where limited, etc.
Mommy was an Orc 05-15-07, 05:33 PM	one of my pet peeves about archers are those who refuse to engage in melee even when they're most suited for it in a suboptimal table makeup. With full BAB, decent hitpoints, and a two-handed weapon wielded with 18 STR, I can be a frontliner in a pinch (particularly if buffed by a party of non-frontliners). It doesn't happen often, but it's been useful on more than one occassion; in fact, I've even thought about taking Power Attack. That's a pet peeve of mine as well - archers should be able to do reasonably well on the frontline if absolutely necessary. Especially if their only party role is archery. I highly recommend taking on a 2nd role - Rogue Archers with Tactile Trapfinder make excellent ranged combatants while covering a vital party role. That's my guy, but even I've had to fight on the front line at times.
Mithreinmaethor 05-15-07, 06:59 PM	That's a pet peeve of mine as well - archers should be able to do reasonably well on the frontline if absolutely necessary. Especially if their only party role is archery. I highly recommend taking on a 2nd role - Rogue Archers with Tactile Trapfinder make excellent ranged combatants while covering a vital party role. That's my guy, but even I've had to fight on the front line at times. Well here is my original build for this Halfling. He sacrifices some of his archer abilities til later in the build to offer more utility as the party rogue. 1 Rogue - Feat: Point Blank Shot 2 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Precise Shot 3 Fighter - Feat: Rapid Shot, Bonus Feat: Rapid Reload 4 Fighter 5 Fighter - Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow) 6 Rogue - Feat: Tactical Trapsmith 7 Rogue 8 Fighter 9 Fighter - Feat: Weapon Specialization (Light Crossbow), Bonus Feat: Ranged Weapon Mastery (Piercing) 10 Rogue 11 Fighter 12 Fighter - Feat: Crossbow Sniper, Bonus Feat: Improved Precise Shot 13 Rogue 14 Fighter 15 Fighter - Feat: Woodland Archer, Bonus Feat: Improved Critical By 9th when he will start the ADP for Greyhawk Ruins (No magic Items Assumed in these Calculations): AB: +19/+14 (Rapid Shot +17/+17/+12) for 1d6+5 within 30' AB: +18/+13 (Rapid Shot +16/+16/+11) for 1d6+4 outside of 30' Add a +1 Light Crossbow and +4 Gloves of Dexterity: AB: +22/+17 (Rapid Shot +20/+20/+15) for 1d6+6 within 30' AB: +21/+16 (Rapid Shot +19/+19/+14) for 1d6+5 outdise 30'
Bold 05-15-07, 07:47 PM	By 9th when he will start the ADP for Greyhawk Ruins (No magic Items Assumed in these Calculations): AB: +19/+14 (Rapid Shot +17/+17/+12) for 1d6+5 within 30' AB: +18/+13 (Rapid Shot +16/+16/+11) for 1d6+4 outside of 30' But 9th-level is when you get a major boost to damage with Weap Spec. and RWM. Up through 8th-level, you're only doing 1d6+1 within 30', or just 1d6 outside of 30'. (Presumably you'd have a +1 xbow by then, but that's still just 1d6+2 or 1d6+1.) In contrast, a high-STR archer at 9th-level would be shooting 1d8+9 within 30' (not counting magic bow or +4 STR belt). More importantly, he'd still be doing 1d8+5 even at 1st-level, and 1d8+7 (with Weap. Spec) much earlier in the build, at a cost of only a couple points lower to-hit roll due to Medium-sized PC and splitting the point buy between STR and DEX. Again, to each his own, no disrespect intended, YMMV, etc.
Mithreinmaethor 05-15-07, 07:55 PM	But 9th-level is when you get a major boost to damage with Weap Spec. and RWM. Up through 8th-level, you're only doing 1d6+1 within 30', or just 1d6 outside of 30'. (Presumably you'd have a +1 xbow by then, but that's still just 1d6+2 or 1d6+1.) In contrast, a high-STR archer at 9th-level would be shooting 1d8+9 within 30' (not counting magic bow or +4 STR belt). More importantly, he'd still be doing 1d8+5 even at 1st-level, and 1d8+7 (with Weap. Spec) much earlier in the build, at a cost of only a couple points lower to-hit roll due to Medium-sized PC and splitting the point buy between STR and DEX. Again, to each his own, no disrespect intended, YMMV, etc. Yes but your STR archer wouldnt have +20 Search, Disable Traps, Open Locks either. So all he can do is shoot or maybe try and tank. The Halfling fills a different roll when combined with the Rogue levels. If I stuck with the straight Fighter build at 9th he could do 1d6+7 (within 30') or 1d6+6 (outside 30'). And outside of dropping unconcsious that Ray of Enfeeblement hurts you much more than it hurts me. I hope not to pull that much attention.
Mommy was an Orc 05-15-07, 08:25 PM	I'd do a crossbow archer this way. Might even make this my Greyhawk Ruins character except I've already got an archer. Okay, so why the 14 Str? It doesn't make that much of a difference in the long run to add a point to damage - but at low levels, he's capable of hitting things and hurting them. Human Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Rogue 1: PBS, Precise Shot 2: Fighter 1: WF: Light Crossbow 3: Wizard 1(Transmutation): Scribe Scroll, Crossbow Sniper 4: Fighter 2: Rapid Reload: Dex 17 5: Fighter 3 6: Fighter 4: Rapid Shot, WS: Light Crossbow 7: Unseen Seer 1 8: Unseen Seer 2: Silent Spell: Dex 18 9: Spellsword 1: CWI 10: Unseen Seer 3 11: Unseen Seer 4 12: Spellsword 2: Practiced Spellcaster, Ranged Weapon Mastery: Dex 19 13: Unseen Seer 5 14: Unseen Seer 6 15: Unseen Seer 7: Improved Precise Shot +11 BAB, 5th level spells(self-provides Blink/Greater Invis/Grave Strike/Golem Strike/GMW), +4d6 Sneak, +7 to damage from Dex/WS/RWM, solid party Rogue. Retraining skills is very necessary around 5th/6th to get all the skills to the right level, but it isn't as if you want all those Fighter skills anyway...
JamesMaissen 05-15-07, 09:37 PM	1: Rogue 1: PBS, Precise Shot 2: Fighter 1: WF: Light Crossbow 3: Wizard 1(Transmutation): Scribe Scroll, Crossbow Sniper 4: Fighter 2: Rapid Reload: Dex 17 5: Fighter 3 6: Fighter 4: Rapid Shot, WS: Light Crossbow I think you might be better off juggling some of these feats and levels. The wizard level hurts BAB early on and doesn't give all that much, I'd delay it until atleast 5th level to be online with a normal cleric/rogue type BAB. You'll wind up 1 BAB behind later on, but early you will certainly feel it. I'd put rapid reload and rapid shot at the same level and earlier on in the build. If Fighter2 is taken at 3rd instead of getting crossbow sniper you could get both rapid reload and rapid shot then. Take crossbow sniper at 6th, throwing in the wizard level when it suits you (delay it until 6th if you want spec earlier). And some other possible tweaks: Craft wonderous is probably the best option at 9th, but woodland archer is an alternative. Likewise depending on what level dependant spells you are looking at loosing a spell level for practiced caster might not be best. Likewise a different feat might be of interest there depending upon taste. For example a different metamagic feat at 9th and metamagic school focus could come here. -James
Mommy was an Orc 05-16-07, 11:53 AM	There are some non-obvious problems with doing what you suggested, though I'd certainly agree most of the time those would be good moves. You can't delay Wizard past 4th - you need to be crossclassing skills at 5th/6th and retraining. Putting Rapid Shot puts the player in the uncomfortable position of being sufficiently good with a mighty composite longbow +2 that they ought to use it. The delay isn't incredible(6th level everything comes online), but I think it is better to not be easily 'fixed' - and Crossbow Sniper is nice for the 1st round when encounter distances are often more than 30', but less than 60'. The spell of choice is Blink at 10th - metamagic feats don't really help out. And Practiced Spellcaster helps out a lot - Unseen Seer drops caster level and at 12th level, the character only has a caster level of 5. Not that great. I think you might be better off juggling some of these feats and levels. The wizard level hurts BAB early on and doesn't give all that much, I'd delay it until atleast 5th level to be online with a normal cleric/rogue type BAB. You'll wind up 1 BAB behind later on, but early you will certainly feel it. I'd put rapid reload and rapid shot at the same level and earlier on in the build. If Fighter2 is taken at 3rd instead of getting crossbow sniper you could get both rapid reload and rapid shot then. Take crossbow sniper at 6th, throwing in the wizard level when it suits you (delay it until 6th if you want spec earlier). And some other possible tweaks: Craft wonderous is probably the best option at 9th, but woodland archer is an alternative. Likewise depending on what level dependant spells you are looking at loosing a spell level for practiced caster might not be best. Likewise a different feat might be of interest there depending upon taste. For example a different metamagic feat at 9th and metamagic school focus could come here. -James
Reylance 05-16-07, 01:04 PM	I just can't see taking a level of rogue and not taking a second. I like evasion, and taking two levels avoids all the retraining to meet skill prerequisites.
Redfist 05-16-07, 01:07 PM	I just can't see taking a level of rogue and not taking a second. I like evasion, and taking two levels avoids all the retraining to meet skill prerequisites. You could also consider 2 levels of monk instead of 2 levels of rogue.
Mommy was an Orc 05-16-07, 03:23 PM	I just can't see taking a level of rogue and not taking a second. I like evasion, and taking two levels avoids all the retraining to meet skill prerequisites. Then you put off Blink until 11th and you lose 5th level spells. The Blink is critical to the build - drop Fighter 4 to Fighter 2 and go Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 8/Spellsword 1 if you're going to do that(and drop WS/RWM) You lose the WS/RWM, but gain an extra d6 of sneak, so it all works out in the end. You also get Blink at 9th instead of 10th.
Bold 05-16-07, 05:49 PM	You lose the WS/RWM, but gain an extra d6 of sneak, so it all works out in the end. Not really, unless I'm missing something. WS/RWM give you +4 damage on every single arrow you shoot. A d6 of sneak gives you an additional 3.5 damage on average, but it will often not be applied (critters immune to sneak, or simply not denied their DEX to you). In my opinion, Ranged Weapon Mastery has made the combination of WF/WS/RWM "must-have" archery feats, along with Precise Shot and PBS/Rapid. It's hard to ignore the benefits of +3 attack and +4 damage.
Mommy was an Orc 05-16-07, 06:05 PM	Not really, unless I'm missing something. WS/RWM give you +4 damage on every single arrow you shoot. A d6 of sneak gives you an additional 3.5 damage on average, but it will often not be applied (critters immune to sneak, or simply not denied their DEX to you). Blink/Greater Invisibility means they're denied Dex most of the time. Unseen Seer + Wizard means you have both Grave Strike and Golem Strike memorized. Crossbow Sniper means you're 60' away from the opponents as opposed to 30' - very useful as a sneak attacker doing lots of damage. Sure, there are some opponents that won't get hurt by you, but it isn't as bad as it is for a usual sneak attacker - as then you're casting spells as a 10th level Wizard with a caster level of 12 for most spells. Not as good as a pure arcane, but...