Post/Author/DateTime	Post
UMiskatonic 11-10-06, 04:30 PM	Hey all, Despite having a bunch of characters, I do not have an archer. So, here's the proposed build, followed by my thinking on the matter. Human Scout 1/Rng 2/Ftr 2/Monk 2/OOTBI 1/whatever7 H: Point blank 1: Precise R2: Rapid 3: open f1: open f2: open 6: open M1: Imp. Unarmed, Imp. Grapple M2: Combat Reflexes, evasion 9: open 12: open 15: open My personal belief is that an archer is about feats and equipment. Anybody with Rapid shot and a +1 holy flaming longbow will do alright. Good BAB and HP are nice to have, but you'll still be able to get by. Scout 1 is a great 1st level character. The ranger levels add martial weapons and tracking, also good. The monk levels add good saves and evasion, a boost to defense in the same way that the fighter levels boost offense. OOTBI is so I don't provoke while shooting. Handy, that is. Some of the open feats will have to be used to qualify for this class, and that's just fine. Anything with BAB and HP will do to advance the character late in the game. I know that Pious Templar and Occult Slayer are common choices, and there's always more Scout levels if I want to be a search and disable type of guy, but that's not really a priority. Does anyone have any really nifty ideas?
paigeoliver 11-10-06, 05:05 PM	One thing I noticed too now that I have a 7th level archer is that the character is pretty much set. As long as I don't start taking wizard or sorcerer levels I can do almost anything I want. All an archer really needs is a good bow, a few points in STR and a good attack bonus. Almost any trick to try to munchkin out archers often ends up no more effective than simply rapid shotting. As far as your build goes I think you would be better off with more fighter levels so you can get weapon spec than you would be with those monk levels.
UMiskatonic 11-10-06, 05:11 PM	I'm pretty sure that I want + 3 to all saves, evasion, +4 vs. grapple, and to threaten the spaces around me at all times. However, that's not to say that two more levels of fighter couldn't be crammed in there also. Anyone else? Is weapon specialization (longbow) worth it?
Japangirl 11-10-06, 08:49 PM	Straight ranger as an archer build, while vanilla, is an excellent choice. You get full BAB, good HP, and all sorts of bonus feats. You can use the spell Arrow Mind to shoot next to someone without provoking (swift action, minutes per level) and you get Improved Precise Shot at 11 for free. After Ranger 11, you can play with fighter levels or some PrC or something, but those 11 levels are worth taking.
Sieylianna 11-10-06, 10:40 PM	Human Scout 1/Rng 2/Ftr 2/Monk 2/OOTBI 1/whatever7 I don't like the scout class for archers. In addition, you're losing two points of BAB from the scout and monk levels. If you want evasion, take more ranger levels (or two levels of rogue in place of the scout and monk levels). Ed
Mommy was an Orc 11-11-06, 12:32 AM	I agree with Ed on this. If you're going to lose some BAB, you want to pick up another role in addition to archer - the problem with archers is that while they do damage, they don't contribute a lot to the party frontline nor do they provide the utility of a spellcaster. Either you want to do a lot of damage or you want the 2nd role. Scout naturally makes Trapfinding Scout a nice choice, and while I think Rogue is a lot better for this(Leomund's Tiny Hut, Improved Invis, etc... makes those 2d6 add up), add Tactile Trapfinder in and you should be the party trapfinder pretty easily. Then the problem is that all your classes with Search as a class skill happen in the 1st 3 levels. That makes it more difficult. Weapon Spec is eventually nice simply because there are things that are incredibly difficult to damage if you don't get that extra +2 damage. You can't just Power Attack for 10 to add an extra +20 to blow past DR. Another role that might be interesting is making a Bard-focused Wood Elf Archer. Does Inspire Courage on round 1, takes 2 levels of Ranger for Rapid Shot, and eventually squeaks into Sublime Chord.
Maesto 11-11-06, 09:24 AM	I've got a 10th level archer, so I've looked at most of the archer options. The main problem with archery is the comparative lack of damage output. You end up with a ridiculously high attack bonus, but with no way to convert it into damage output through the use of powerattack or something similar. If you just want to be characterful and flavoursome, then rangers make for very fun skill-based characters. If you actually want to do damage and have other uses, then... a) You need some way to fire while in melee. Either use an exotic bow and go through exotic weapon master, take enough ranger levels to have arrow mind and use pearls of power, or take order of the bow initiate. b) Weapon focus (any ranged weapon) is basically a dead feat. All it is really is a means to an end; namely, a way to get into PRC's and to get weapon spec. c) Dex isn't actually all that important, because you can't convert attack bonus into damage. I have STR 14 and DEX 20; I would prefer to have STR 20 and DEX 14. Maybe DEX 16 would be better, but still. d) Take a good look at ranged disarm. It looks to be a way to use your large attack bonus. e) Improved Rapid Shot probably isn't worth it, but it certainly simplifies things. f) If you take monk levels, don't take combat reflexes - it won't get any use at all. Take deflect arrows instead, which allows you to easily win when trading arrow for arrow. g) You want weapon spec. Pious templar will get it for you, as will 4 fighter levels. You'll probably want at least 2 fighter levels, so the 4th is probably a good idea. The paladin spell list isn't so great for an archer, as bless weapon doesn't work on ranged weapons. Thus, 4 ftr is probably a better option (unless you're worried about the saves). h) Occult slayer, although cheesy, is an easy way to ramp up the damage. Just my thoughts.
clik_ml 11-11-06, 11:39 AM	g) You want weapon spec. Pious templar will get it for you, as will 4 fighter levels. You'll probably want at least 2 fighter levels, so the 4th is probably a good idea. The paladin spell list isn't so great for an archer, as bless weapon doesn't work on ranged weapons. I'd stress that Pious Templar is one of the best archer prestige classes out there (granted, only because the intended archer prestige classes all stink). You get good saves, good HD, good BAB, weapon spec, a couple bonus feats, DR, and on top of that a fairly useful spell list. Divine Sacrifice is in my opinion, a much much better archery buff than Arrow Mind, and allows for punching through DR when neeeded. If you haven't totally dumped Con, then you can probably suffer then extra 10 damage a round fairly easily since you shouldn't plan on getting in melee anyway. If you do get pressed into melee you have smites at the ready. My archer is planning on being a pious templar of Ehlonna with practiced spellcaster and a crafting feat or two. I'll have divine sacrifice, divine favor (when I have prep time and know battle is imminent), and greater magic weapon. Divine Insight is on the pious templar/paladin spell list, and that can be handy if you're a trapfinder. Grave Strike is also on the list, if you do happen to pack in a die or two of sneak attack for the build. So definitely strongly consider pious templar if you are willing to worship one of the bow wielding deities (Ehlonna, Phaulkon, or Solonor something or other).
DuctShuiTengu 11-11-06, 12:11 PM	a) You need some way to fire while in melee. Either use an exotic bow and go through exotic weapon master, take enough ranger levels to have arrow mind and use pearls of power, or take order of the bow initiate. Personally, I'd disagree with this one. Bows are far too vulnerable to Sunder or Disarm attempts for me to be comfortable using one while in melee range. Most of the other suggestions, I agree with (I've found Dex to be very useful, but will admit that dropping my one archer's starting dex to 16 and raising his Strength to 18 would probably have made him slightly more effective). Ranged Disarm, I mostly save for use on holy symbols and spell-component pouces and the like. The -4 penalty on my attack role (most Judges I've done this with have ruled that Ranged Disarm via the feat suffers this penalty just like using the Ranged Disarm trick from EWM) combined with the frequent +4 to their attack rolls (PCs aren't the only ones to have discovered the value of two-handed weapons) reduce my odds of disarming the BDF into the range of slim to none. Stopping the enemy spellcasters from spellcasting, on the other hand... Even saving it for my last arrow of the round, I like those odds.
Galvin 11-11-06, 04:31 PM	I would drop the monk, and take 5 scout, you can gain some of your bow feats this way, you gain evasion, uncanny dodge, can act as the party trap finder/disarmer.
UMiskatonic 11-11-06, 10:54 PM	Well, it's a lot to chew on. Thanks for the comments, everybody
Cynric 11-12-06, 03:55 AM	You play in Ratik right. I would suggest getting access to Dread Commando. It allows you to fill out the roles of trapfinder and can give you a nice damage boost in some situations. I tis supposed to be in the Ratik Meta-orgs when they get finalised.
_m_ 11-12-06, 06:35 PM	i like the cragtop archer personally. not because its really that fantastic... but cmon, shooting and hitting at 10000 yards is pretty cool. sure, you'll never get to use it (go on dm, explain to me how the riders we saw charging across the plains got within charge range before we got to act), but its still cool.
Jay_Ibero_911 11-12-06, 07:31 PM	Here's a few basic archer builds I've had on stand-by for whenever I start a new character and feel like playing an archer: Race: Wood Elf Alignment: STR-16 (10) +2 DEX-15 (8) +2 CON-14 (6) -2 INT-8 (0) -2 WIS-12 (4) CHA-8 (0) Lv1(Fighter)Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Lv2(Fighter)Rapid Shot Lv3(Fighter)Weapon Focus Lv4(Fighter)Weapon Specialization, +1 DEX Lv5(Fighter) Lv6(Fighter)Manyshot, Woodland Archer Lv7(Fighter) Lv8(Fighter)Improved Critical, +1 DEX Lv9(Fighter)Greater Weapon Focus Lv10(Fighter)Bonus Feat Lv11(Fighter) Lv12(Fighter)Improved Precise Shot, Greater Weapon Specialization, +1 DEX Lv13() Lv14() Lv15()Feat This build is pretty vanilla but chock full of feats. Not much thinking required. Race: Wood Elf Alignment: STR-16 (10) +2 DEX-14 (6) +2 CON-14 (6) -2 INT-14 (6) -2 WIS-8 (0) CHA-8 (0) Lv1(Fighter)Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Lv2(Fighter)Rapid Shot Lv3(Fighter)Weapon Focus Lv4(Fighter)Weapon Specialization, +1 DEX Lv5(Fighter) Lv6(Fighter)Manyshot, Improved Initiative Lv7(OBI) Lv8(OBI)+1 DEX Lv9(Occult Slayer)Improved Critical Lv10(Occult Slayer) Lv11(OBI) Lv12(OBI)Improved Precise Shot, Greater Weapon Focus, +1 DEX Lv13(Occult Slayer) Lv14(Occult Slayer) Lv15(Occult Slayer)Feat A more stereotypical archer build, makes use of the popular occult slayer and order of the bow initiate classes. The extra OBI and Occult Slayer levels are mostly for lack of anything better to do, given the already strained feats and skill points. Race:Wood Elf Alignment:Any non-good STR-16 (10)+2 DEX-15 (8)+2 CON-14 (6)-2 INT-8 (0)-2 WIS-8 (0) CHA-12 (4) Lv1(Fighter)Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Lv2(Fighter)Rapid Shot Lv3(Hexblade)Weapon Focus Lv4(Hexblade)+1 DEX Lv5(Hexblade) Lv6(Hexblade)Manyshot Lv7(Arcane Archer) Lv8(Arcane Archer)+1 DEX Lv9(Arcane Archer)Improved Critical Lv10(Arcane Archer) Lv11(Arcane Archer) Lv12(Arcane Archer)Improved Precise Shot, +1 DEX Lv13(Arcane Archer) Lv14(Arcane Archer) Lv15(Arcane Archer)Woodland Archer Less vanilla, and arguably less effective, the primary draw of this build is it's a full bab Arcane Archer, which gets you free +5 arrows at level 15. You may have noticed that all my archer builds use Wood Elf and have 18 str, that's because wood elves get bonuses to the 2 stats that matter most for an archer and a +4 strength modifier is the highest composite bow that's core in LG, so may as well max that out. As far as Pious Templar builds, I haven't considered that before, but may have to try that out.
Alpha_Nerd 11-12-06, 09:10 PM	I Like a Wood Elf archer with 3 ranger 2 fighter 2 monk 2 OOBI 2 wildrunner 4 pious templar. The 4th Pious Templar level could be replaced with occult slayer for the 1d6 to spellcasters if you aren't using the bonus feat for anything. I think I was using it for manyshot though so I can pick up that and imp rapid shot
DuctShuiTengu 11-12-06, 09:54 PM	I prefer more Ranger-based Archers, mostly because I want to make sure my character has more to contribute to the party than just damage. Ranger gives the character skills, Track, an animal companion (admittedly a weak one, so mostly useful for scouting or as a mount) and some spellcasting to let them contribute more outside of combat (my primary character generally sticks with the bow during combat, but scouts, tracks, and heals between encounters), while the combat style, favored enemy, and spells keep them more than competitive for damage. While there are plenty of things that archers can use the extra feats from going Fighter for, most of them either aren't really needed or can be replaced by Ranger spells, so I'd either skip them all-together, or just take a two level dip into the class to cover it. But then, I find that there tend to be too many things that parties need for me to feel I'm pulling my weight just doing one.
_m_ 11-12-06, 10:10 PM	But then, I find that there tend to be too many things that parties need for me to feel I'm pulling my weight just doing one. i kind of feel the same alot. i solved said problem by having enormously hi int, and just having all the skills :D 'Does anyone have knowled....' 'I DO!!' *grin* i find that its impossible NOT to be good in a range of areas. i mean, i never put any real effort into hiding, and ended up with +28 to hide in plane sight :D
Arinaad 11-12-06, 10:28 PM	My highest level character is an archer. Her primary role is just that, with the secondary roles of surviving, trapspringing and providing flanking/aid others. Her build: Fighter2/Monk2/Paladin2/Order of the Bow Initiate2/Pious Templar3/Favoured Soul2/Tatooed Monk2(unicorn tatoo) I rarely suffer any negative effects from spells, and since rogues are in short supply in the Baklunish West & from my experience the Sheldomar Valley being able to take the traps that are thrown at you at APL12+ rather safely is a bonus. Having the evasion and Mettle are great and the saves all being over 20 are very usefull. Being an archer doesn't mean hiding in the back, but it does help that I keep my profile low and aid damage dealer's attacks or AC, and with weapon finesse fighting defensively to do so helps. I am packing quite a few spells that are of fairly decent use, including Divine Sacrifice, bless, CLW etc. and I have no fear of going toe-to-toe against some of the creatures that have silly things like poison or petrification. Note: I don't do much damage, but I do like to grapple things on occasion. *usefull against the assassins that are trying to kill a count in Keoland.* Just the way I did mine, your experiences may vary. -+1frosting, merciful longbow: ~12,500gp -+3 vest of resistance: 4,000 gp -being able to laugh at the judge who threw the Maximised-Empowered Horrid Wilting at you: Priceless. Arinaad
retro 11-13-06, 07:54 PM	Hey all, Despite having a bunch of characters, I do not have an archer. So, here's the proposed build, followed by my thinking on the matter. Human Scout 1/Rng 2/Ftr 2/Monk 2/OOTBI 1/whatever7 You need two levels of OOTBI to get close combat shot.
Lomiat 11-13-06, 08:25 PM	For archer builds, I like straight Ranger, straight Rogue, Fighter 4 plus other class levels (likely Sorcerer for Arrow Mind), and Bard is also good (can go Arcane Archer, too), depending on how much you want the straight archery versus a balance with a secondary role. Occult Slayer is probably the best Archer PrC for damage. A lot of effective archers I've seen have taken Beastmaster to heighten their secondary roles (as rangers); at the point where you've established your basics, it's as good a class as any. The Monk level is a fine idea, but I think Arrow Mind is better. If you have to go into melee so many times that you can't use Arrow Mind for each, you've made more than one tactical error.
qstor 11-13-06, 08:49 PM	The Monk level is a fine idea, but I think Arrow Mind is better. If you have to go into melee so many times that you can't use Arrow Mind for each, you've made more than one tactical error. I agree. I think take a Wis 12 and at *least* 4 levels of ranger and get a pearl of Power 1 to recall Arrow Mind later. My high level retired PC (archer) was Ranger 11/Ftr 4/Knight of the Dispatch 1 Mike
_m_ 11-13-06, 10:19 PM	I agree. I think take a Wis 12 and at *least* 4 levels of ranger and get a pearl of Power 1 to recall Arrow Mind later. My high level retired PC (archer) was Ranger 11/Ftr 4/Knight of the Dispatch 1 Mike knight of the wha?
solbergb 11-21-06, 05:58 PM	While I think 20 str and 14 dex is a bit extreme, 18 str and 16 dex is not. If you can't pull a +4 str bow, your damage output tends to slip a bit below the curve. 16 is the min str I'd consider for a LG archer, just from the way all the 14 str archers seem to feel about their character from level 8 onward. You can't afford to have much better a bow than the strong archer, and far too often the +d6 enhancmenets don't apply and you must fall back on your raw str+enhance bonus+weapon spec or favored enemy bonus. Archers can do good, steady damage from level 1-15 but it is a lot easier to stay on top of the damage curve if you start out with enough strength to get a +4 bow right out of the gate. Weapon spec (via fighter4 or pious templar) is also better on an archer than on a 2H fighter....you hit with most of your attacks..a bit of extra damage on each one matters more than it does for the guy who swings and whiffs half his blows but does 50 on each that lands.
clannagh 11-21-06, 06:32 PM	in my opinion you need to focus an archer as stand and shoot or move and shoot if you stand and shoot the feat of choice is woodland archer, improved rapid shot would be nice but it has a prerequisite of manyshot which is next to useless for a stand and shoot archer if you move and shoot OBI can be ok but it doesnt stack with manyshot ... a better way to bring up move and shoot damage may be able sniper with levels of both scout and rogue to add precision damage
_m_ 11-21-06, 06:35 PM	While I think 20 str and 14 dex is a bit extreme, 18 str and 16 dex is not. If you can't pull a +4 str bow, your damage output tends to slip a bit below the curve. 16 is the min str I'd consider for a LG archer, just from the way all the 14 str archers seem to feel about their character from level 8 onward. You can't afford to have much better a bow than the strong archer, and far too often the +d6 enhancmenets don't apply and you must fall back on your raw str+enhance bonus+weapon spec or favored enemy bonus. Archers can do good, steady damage from level 1-15 but it is a lot easier to stay on top of the damage curve if you start out with enough strength to get a +4 bow right out of the gate. Weapon spec (via fighter4 or pious templar) is also better on an archer than on a 2H fighter....you hit with most of your attacks..a bit of extra damage on each one matters more than it does for the guy who swings and whiffs half his blows but does 50 on each that lands. i agree with this whole post, except: most fighters pumping out 50+ damage per hit really dont miss very often.
solbergb 11-21-06, 09:06 PM	Many of them only achieve that damage by power attacking for a lot. They tend to discount any iteratives lower than the "haste" and "primary", or are overly optomistic. It depends what level we're talking about. At the time when a fighter can do 50 a hit and hit with one of his iterataves as well as his two primary attacks the archer can afford a good enough bow to approach the 30 damage a shot range which makes him comparable. This assumes a target with middling-good AC for the level. The low AC stuff, yeah, the power attacking guys just crank out the damage far beyond what a bow can use. But those moments are compensated by when you gun down the folks he can't reach. It evens out.
clannagh 11-21-06, 09:15 PM	Many of them only achieve that damage by power attacking for a lot. They tend to discount any iteratives lower than the "haste" and "primary", or are overly optomistic. It depends what level we're talking about. At the time when a fighter can do 50 a hit and hit with one of his iterataves as well as his two primary attacks the archer can afford a good enough bow to approach the 30 damage a shot range which makes him comparable. This assumes a target with middling-good AC for the level. The low AC stuff, yeah, the power attacking guys just crank out the damage far beyond what a bow can use. But those moments are compensated by when you gun down the folks he can't reach. It evens out. The real downside for archers is damage reduction whereas the big producers just power past it. Also the enlarge tirck that works for melee fighters is harder to pull off. A larger bow can help but unfortunately monkey grip doesnt work on bows and enlarge person by itself is useless as teh arrows revert to medium the instant they leave the bow .. so you need to buy a larger bow then enlarge person before using it. The other problem is the long range of bows is negated by the fact that encounters are generally designed to prevent long range fireballing and pincushioning the beasties before they get in charge range. My poor old wood elf archer has a +1 distance bow, farshot and flight arrows giving a max range up around 6000 feet but even if you can spot at that range (technically possible if they are not hiding and have no cover) the mods tend to be written so as to not let you get a shot in that early.
_m_ 11-21-06, 10:19 PM	Many of them only achieve that damage by power attacking for a lot. They tend to discount any iteratives lower than the "haste" and "primary", or are overly optomistic. It depends what level we're talking about. At the time when a fighter can do 50 a hit and hit with one of his iterataves as well as his two primary attacks the archer can afford a good enough bow to approach the 30 damage a shot range which makes him comparable. This assumes a target with middling-good AC for the level. The low AC stuff, yeah, the power attacking guys just crank out the damage far beyond what a bow can use. But those moments are compensated by when you gun down the folks he can't reach. It evens out. it depends how you build your character. if you use shock trooper, and to the reckless charge, you can up the +to hit, and drop ac instead. sure, you might get hit, but when you get to full power attack with no drop on your hit roll, with all your attacks (ok, you still get standard iterative negs), who cares? and yeah, as clannagh said, dr bites alot more on the multiattacking archers than the 1 hitting fighter. 5 lots of DR 10 against 5 arrows doing 20 each is -50 = 50, where against 1 hit for the 100, its -10 = 90. ok, silly example, but you know what i mean.
Sieylianna 11-21-06, 11:17 PM	if you stand and shoot the feat of choice is woodland archer, improved rapid shot would be nice but it has a prerequisite of manyshot which is next to useless for a stand and shoot archer It's free with six levels of ranger. Ed
_m_ 11-21-06, 11:20 PM	It's free with six levels of ranger. Ed true, but you have to look at the downsides of 6 levels. i admit, its a good'un, and you also get the spells, which the non phb ones are quite nice. but i havent really seen alot of archer builds that make GOOD use of 6 ranger levels.
clik_ml 11-22-06, 02:18 AM	Also the enlarge tirck that works for melee fighters is harder to pull off. A larger bow can help but unfortunately monkey grip doesnt work on bows and enlarge person by itself is useless as teh arrows revert to medium the instant they leave the bow .. so you need to buy a larger bow then enlarge person before using it. Not so. Enlarged archers deal more damage with projectiles. It is weapon throwers that get the shaft. From Enlarge Person: "Melee and projectile weapons affected by this spell deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them" There ya go. Not saying that taking -2 to hit and -2 to AC is worth that little bit of extra damage, but there is indeed a little bit of extra damage earned there.
solbergb 11-22-06, 01:48 PM	it depends how you build your character. if you use shock trooper, and to the reckless charge, you can up the +to hit, and drop ac instead. Aside from very high level wildrunners and some druid pounce builds, shock trooper only gives you one attack. Which rather firmly puts you in the < 100 damage range unless you're doing a lance charge. The only way most folks can power attack full with a full attack and still have decent attack mods is to have a warchanter inspire recklessness.
Swiftbrook 11-22-06, 06:12 PM	in my opinion you need to focus an archer as stand and shoot or move and shoot if you stand and shoot the feat of choice is woodland archer, improved rapid shot would be nice but it has a prerequisite of manyshot which is next to useless for a stand and shoot archer Improved Rapid Shot works for every shot, against every target, every round. Woodland Archer is very restrictive. It works only after your first miss, only one the same target and only until the end of the round. Also, I belive manyshot is good to use in the suprise round when you only get a standard action. true, but you have to look at the downsides of 6 levels. i admit, its a good'un, and you also get the spells, which the non phb ones are quite nice. but i havent really seen alot of archer builds that make GOOD use of 6 ranger levels. If you compare a 6th level Ranger archer with a archery optimizing Fighter build you're correct. However, the Fighter archer is much more a one trick pony. Those ranger spells, animal companion and 36 more skill points really come in handy in making a well rounded Ranger that adds more than just firepower to the party. My build so far (slighty modified for this thread): Wood Elf Ranger 6 Str +3, Dex +4 R1: Point Blank Shot, Track, Favored Enemy(Human +2) R2: Rapid Shot R3: Percise Shot, Endurance R4: Animal Companion, Spells (Arrow Mind) R5: Favored Enemy(Undead +4, Human +2) R6: Many Shot, Improved Rapid Shot Skills: Survival, Spot, Listen, all maxed. Knowledge(Geography, Nature, Dungeonearing), Handle Animal, Move Silently all high. I do not recommend taking Favored Enemy(Human). I've found, contrary to my original thinking, that you encounter very few human bad guys. From this point you can continue with the Ranger archer, pickup four levels of Fighter for more feats, or head to a prestige class of your choice (with a feat change or two). -Swiftbrook
_m_ 11-22-06, 06:18 PM	hitting prc requirements / synergies seems to be mostly why people only dip ranger / fighter. strangely enough, the 2 of us where i live with a fair chunk of knowledge multiclass like theres no tommorow. interestingly enough thou, our other characters seem to be straight druid, 2x straight sorc, straight fighter, straight cleric... dont get me wrong, im all for doing whatever you want... i just rekon having 5 classes by level 10 is fun :D
clannagh 11-22-06, 06:19 PM	I do not recommend taking Favored Enemy(Human). I've found, contrary to my original thinking, that you encounter very few human bad guys. -Swiftbrook Favored enemy .. animal is surprisingly useful. Especially against mounted bad guys.
JamesMaissen 11-24-06, 02:05 AM	Favored enemy .. animal is surprisingly useful. Especially against mounted bad guys. For archers I'm a fan of favored enemy: elemental. They tend to have DR /- and being able to mitigate that means not having to look for changeups against them. I'm also not a big fan of manyshot.. the range requirement of 30ft is what kills it for me. If an archer has an enemy within 30ft in the surprise round, either quickdraw a tanglefoot bag or use the standard to get some distance. -James
Swiftbrook 11-25-06, 08:03 PM	Here's an almost one dimentional Archer build. Wood Elf Str 18 (+4) Dex 17 (+3) Int 10 Con 10 Wis 10 Chr 8 (-1) 1 - R1: Point Blank Shot, Track [TH +5/Dmg +1] 2 - F1: Percise Shot {purchase MW mighty bow +4 Str} [TH +7/Dmg +5] 3 - F2: Weapon Focus(longbow), Rapid Shot [TH +7/Dmg +5] 4 - F3: {Dex to 18} [TH +9/Dmg +5] 5 - F4: Weapon Specialization(longbow) [TH +10/Dmg +7] 6 - F5: Manyshot [TH +11/Dmg +7] 7 - F6: Improved Rapid Shot [TH +14/Dmg +7] 8 - F7: {Dex to 19} [TH +15/Dmg +7] 9 - F8: Ranged Weapon Mastery(Piercing) {PHBII}, Greater Weapon Focus(longbow) [TH +19/Dmg +9] 10 - F9: [TH +20/Dmg +9] 11 - F10: Improved Percise Shot [TH +21/Dmg +9] 12 - F11: Far Shot {Dex to 20} [TH +23/Dmg +9] 13 - F12: Greater Weapons Specialization(longbow) [TH +24/Dmg +11] One level of Ranger gives you lots of skill points to start with along with Track and a favored enemy. All feats were taken as soon as possible. This build is based on a stand and shoot or hide and snipe archer, not a long range shooter or a shot-on-the-run archer. This build assumes that the feats from PHBII (Ranged Weapon Mastery) will be legal. TH is based on a Masterwork bow, Dex modifier, BAB and feats using Rapid Shot all the time (extra shots not calculated) Dmg is based on a +4 Str bow and all feats 1st Level Skills: Hide 4, Move Silently 4, Spot 4, Listen 4, Survival 4, ________ 4 For fighter levels, I'd consentrate on Hide and Move Silently sacrificing a point every few levels to either Spot or Listen. The role of this build is basically an archer. Secondary role is a limited scout. Just an idea for a pure archer build. -Swiftbrook
clik_ml 11-26-06, 02:31 AM	If you took 1 level of ranger, why would you ever take a fighter level to get rapid shot when you could get it as a bonus feat with the 2nd level of ranger? Then you could fit in something like Woodland Archer as the extra feat gained or Improved Favored Enemy (for extra punch against something like Elementals if you wisely chose them as favored enemy). Something to keep in mind with an archer like that is that its will save is in the gutter. It's not gonna be a happy day when they get dominated and machine gun down the party, or just have to run in fear for a whole encounter. I'm not a fan of using monk levels to shore that stuff up, but you kinda need something in there.
Japangirl 11-26-06, 03:58 AM	Never mind what I wrote, it's 1 ranger/14 fighter. But still will saves are just about norm for a fighter, so bad but not awful. Great fort, good reflex, poor will. Sounds like a normal situation to me.
solbergb 11-26-06, 10:50 AM	Favored enemy .. animal is surprisingly useful. Especially against mounted bad guys. I took it for my arcane archer whose backstory had him as a tribal hunter. It isn't the most commonly seen enemy (far too many animal encounters are either magical beasts or templated animals which makes them magical beasts) but it is indeed extremely handy for tracking and killing mounted troops and for messing up druids (who are in LG type animal when wildshaped) and their pets. I've had favorable metagame reactions to this - it was (rightly) seen as a pure roleplay choice that grew out of my concept, instead of my concept being tweaked around my favored enemy. Although one guy thought it was an indication that I wasn't a powergamer, which is deeply ironic, because my archer is probably my most optomized character in LG, especially at the level he was being played during that encunter (he's taking a concept strong in L1-15 and doing it well, and is specialized in many things that are especially useful in LG as opposed to most of mine which take something odd and use my powergamer talents to make them viable...and APL6 was one of the spikes in his power curve relative to "normal")
solbergb 11-26-06, 10:52 AM	I'm also not a big fan of manyshot.. the range requirement of 30ft is what kills it for me. If an archer has an enemy within 30ft in the surprise round, either quickdraw a tanglefoot bag or use the standard to get some distance. -James Agreed. I ditched all archer feats that require close range. To me the only reason for multishot is to get improved rapid shot. My archer can cope in close combat, but he's far more effective with an air barrier between him and the enemy. Luckily he teams with a druid who does rapid sumons, so meat shields are rarely a problem.
solbergb 11-26-06, 10:53 AM	If you took 1 level of ranger, why would you ever take a fighter level to get rapid shot when you could get it as a bonus feat with the 2nd level of ranger The only reason I can think of would be to do your archery in medium or heavy armor. With the very high dex of most archers though, that's usually not a very cost-effective approach. From a level 15 standpoint though...you do get one extra feat going pure fighter (because you end on an even level instead of an odd level). You could instead go rgr2/fighter12/rgr1 though and max one of your skills. The other thing is that any level of ranger delays greater weapon spec, which you might want at level 12 instead of level 14.
Swiftbrook 11-26-06, 11:39 AM	If you took 1 level of ranger, why would you ever take a fighter level to get rapid shot when you could get it as a bonus feat with the 2nd level of ranger? From a level 15 standpoint though...you do get one extra feat going pure fighter (because you end on an even level instead of an odd level). The other thing is that any level of ranger delays greater weapon spec, which you might want at level 12 instead of level 14. My thinking exactly. I compared a straight level 12 fighter with a Ranger 1/Fighter 12. In terms of feats, it seemed balanced, you got some feats earlier with the ranger, some earlier with straignt fighter. IMO Improved Percise Shot is a key feat. The R1/F12 get this feat fastest. Also, R2/F12 is a viable alternative, but it delays many feats including IPS till 12th level. Like I said before, this is not a well rounded build, just an optimized archer build. I play a Ranger archer currently at 7th level. Archery is my combat techinque but it's not the only dimention to my build. -Swiftbrook
clannagh 11-26-06, 05:21 PM	one neat trick with archer builds if you do not mind a BAB drop is to take a level of cleric with a deity with war and favored weapon longbow The Suel god Phaulkon will do it for you or if you are elven Solonira Thelandira
Japangirl 11-26-06, 05:59 PM	As to gods, Corellon Larethion works for elves too, as a longbow is his secondary favored weapon. So does Mayaheine (sp?) for humans.
clannagh 11-26-06, 06:13 PM	As to gods, Corellon Larethion works for elves too, as a longbow is his secondary favored weapon. So does Mayaheine (sp?) for humans. Secondary favored weapons count ? That is very interesting is there documentation that confirms that? Also .. with regard to the earlier discussion about making ranged fighters more versatile .. my Dex 24 ranged character took a level of rogue and the tactile trapsmith feat for instant search and disable goodness.
Japangirl 11-26-06, 06:17 PM	LGCS p. 10 "If two weapons are listed, either may be used as the favored weapon."
clannagh 11-26-06, 06:27 PM	LGCS p. 10 "If two weapons are listed, either may be used as the favored weapon." I am pretty certain that only refers to case such as: Llerg - Favored Weapon: Battleaxe (m) or Longsword (m0 Corellon doesnt show Longbow at all in the LG Deity list so he may still be an option if lonbow shows up as a favored weapon in a legitimate source elsewhere. With Mayaheine however the longbow is not a favored weapon it is under the section "Other Preferred Weapons" and I am pretty sure for her it does not count, a preferred weapon is not a favored weapon.
Mommy was an Orc 11-26-06, 06:31 PM	LGCS p. 10 "If two weapons are listed, either may be used as the favored weapon." Doesn't work like that - there is no such thing as a secondary favored weapon. There's other preferred weapons. Mayaheine, the goddess, likes using a bow and mace. Her favored weapon though is only a Bastard Sword. What you're referring to is if there are two favored weapons. Some deities, such as Heironeous have two favored weapons. You can choose from Battle Axe or Longsword if you worship him and pick the war domain.
clik_ml 11-26-06, 06:39 PM	LGCS p. 10 "If two weapons are listed, either may be used as the favored weapon." That isn't quite right. There are favored weapons, which if there are more than one, either may be used as the lauded favored weapon. Then there are preferred weapons. Preferred weapons are any other weapons that the deity doesn't favor. but does consider preferable for its follwers to use. Mayaheine's favored weapon is the bastard sword. The mace and longbow are preferred weapons, which are not applicable for favored weapon status. As for Corellon, he doesn't have even any other preferred weapons much less favored weapons besides the longsword. Now some deities do have multiple favored weapons. Like Ehlonna (doesn't have the war domain though) whom my archer is going to be a pious templar for. [edit: dang we're a pack of rabid dogs here, 3 replies to the same thing in about a dozen minutes]
Mommy was an Orc 11-26-06, 06:49 PM	Now some deities do have multiple favored weapons. Like Ehlonna (doesn't have the war domain though) whom my archer is going to be a pious templar for. Mine, too. He's a Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Pious Templar 4 build with all kinds of strange questions about what I want to do with the last 4 levels: Rogue - gained access to PHB II option. BAB hit and XP hit. Lots of skill points though. Seeker of the Misty Isle - he could cast 3rd level spells without items, Travel Domain is pretty nice. BAB hit. Have access to this and will have all the prereqs. Good skill bonuses, but odd skill list. Ranger - easiest, like the 1st level spells, too. An animal companion won't help much, but it might eat an attack. Wildrunner - difficult to meet the prereqs, don't really have the skill points for it, and I only have the 8 charisma. He's a lot of fun, though - someone who can disarm a trap(right now with Tactile Trapfinder, eventually via casting Divine Insight), insane search check, okay scouting, yet at the same time, a decent archer.
_m_ 11-26-06, 06:55 PM	japangirl, i think you will find that the longbow is only the prefe.... ok, im not gonna make it 4 replies of the same thing. ... but i was tempted.
clik_ml 11-26-06, 10:42 PM	Mine, too. He's a Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Pious Templar 4 build with all kinds of strange questions about what I want to do with the last 4 levels: Heh, it is tricky deciding what to do with the later levels. Mine [my build, that is] is a halfling 2 Rgr/1 Barb/2 Ftr/4 PiousT/..., who for the time being rages to get his 18 strength on. Later that will just be to keep putting out the divine sacrifice arrows every round. I was planning on just vanilla 10 PiousT along with some crafting feats to make his own toys, but I'm now leaning towards 1 Beastmaster/2 Ranger along with natural bond to get a decent critter to ride upon or protect me, then can take another 3 levels in some animal companion advancing class (animal lord or druid probably).
clannagh 11-26-06, 11:57 PM	Mine, too. He's a Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Pious Templar 4 build with all kinds of strange questions about what I want to do with the last 4 levels: Rogue - gained access to PHB II option. BAB hit and XP hit. Lots of skill points though. Seeker of the Misty Isle - he could cast 3rd level spells without items, Travel Domain is pretty nice. BAB hit. Have access to this and will have all the prereqs. Good skill bonuses, but odd skill list. Ranger - easiest, like the 1st level spells, too. An animal companion won't help much, but it might eat an attack. Wildrunner - difficult to meet the prereqs, don't really have the skill points for it, and I only have the 8 charisma. He's a lot of fun, though - someone who can disarm a trap(right now with Tactile Trapfinder, eventually via casting Divine Insight), insane search check, okay scouting, yet at the same time, a decent archer. I have a similiar issue 2 ranger/2rogue/3fighter with OBI and templar pre-requisites already met just in case cleary one more fighter to even out the levels but then what ? more rogue to get rid of the XP hit? pious templar? OBI? or more ranger ? or something else radically different on the rogue track like spymaster ? Mine is a halfling 2 Rgr/1 Barb/2 Ftr/4 PiousT/..., who for the time being rages to get his 18 strength on. Barbarian is interesting .. swapping 1 dex/attack point for 2 damage with the right bow .. kinda like power attack really for bows. Only downside i can see to that is the annoying rule that would give that mighty +4 bow a negative to hit when out of rage.
_m_ 11-27-06, 12:12 AM	I have a similiar issue 2 ranger/2rogue/3fighter with OBI and templar pre-requisites already met just in case cleary one more fighter to even out the levels but then what ? more rogue to get rid of the XP hit? pious templar? OBI? or more ranger ? or something else radically different on the rogue track like spymaster ? exp penalty in lgh is really more of a boon than a bane (*giggle*). it ramps your money and gear a bit, and lets you hold on to a toon you like playing a little bit longer.
clik_ml 11-27-06, 03:56 AM	Barbarian is interesting .. swapping 1 dex/attack point for 2 damage with the right bow .. kinda like power attack really for bows. Only downside i can see to that is the annoying rule that would give that mighty +4 bow a negative to hit when out of rage. There actually is no dex penalty sacrifice for raging. The only downside is the -2 ac penalty, and limited duration/crash afterwards. The dex penalty comes when you're fatigued afterwards, but then you're hosed all-around. Thankfully I'll be able to cast Lesser Restoration on myself by 7th level if it comes to that. I have a backup bow so that I don't have to worry about the attack penalty for not being strong enough to use my main bow, but I'm finding that most often I don't even mind the -2 penalty for the magic +1 damage since I'm hitting stuff anyway and don't need to use the weaker bow. At level 6 I'll have extra rages and then I'll pretty much never have to worry about being too weak for the strong bow. Since I insist on playing halflings, rage was about the only way to boost my strength while keeping full BAB and racking up the archery feats in the early levels. By level 6 his damage output will be about on par with those monstrous wood elf archers (more, if they don't have divine sacrifice), and nobody expects the halfling to be deadly like that.
_m_ 11-27-06, 04:48 PM	There actually is no dex penalty sacrifice for raging. The only downside is the -2 ac penalty, and limited duration/crash afterwards. The dex penalty comes when you're fatigued afterwards, but then you're hosed all-around. Thankfully I'll be able to cast Lesser Restoration on myself by 8th level if it comes to that. I have a backup bow so that I don't have to worry about the attack penalty for not being strong enough to use my main bow, but I'm finding that most often I don't even mind the -2 penalty for the magic +1 damage since I'm hitting stuff anyway and don't need to use the weaker bow. At level 6 I'll have extra rages and then I'll pretty much never have to worry about being too weak for the strong bow. Since I insist on playing halflings, rage was about the only way to boost my strength while keeping full BAB and racking up the archery feats in the early levels. By level 6 his damage output will be about on par with those monstrous wood elf archers (more, if they don't have divine sacrifice), and nobody expects the halfling to be deadly like that. no, he meant he wouldnt have enough str to properly use the full mightyness of the bow when he wasnt raging.
clik_ml 11-28-06, 03:32 AM	no, he meant he wouldnt have enough str to properly use the full mightyness of the bow when he wasnt raging. Ehhh, unless you prepped detect thoughts today that's not what this sounds like at all... . o O ("swapping 1 dex/attack point for 2 damage with the right bow .. kinda like power attack really for bows.") Granted, I really don't know what that meant, but it sure sounds like an implication that there is some sort of attack loss in order to deal more damage, when in fact I have an attack boost when I deal more damage (since I have no penalty any longer).
_m_ 12-06-06, 10:53 PM	Ehhh, unless you prepped detect thoughts today that's not what this sounds like at all... . o O ("swapping 1 dex/attack point for 2 damage with the right bow .. kinda like power attack really for bows.") Granted, I really don't know what that meant, but it sure sounds like an implication that there is some sort of attack loss in order to deal more damage, when in fact I have an attack boost when I deal more damage (since I have no penalty any longer). with a mighty +4 bow, if you dont have +4 (18) str, then you have an equivalent negative when using it. im assuming that he was reffering to the fact that he needed to rage in order to get to +4 str, and hence use the bow properly, and that when not raging, his str was insufficient to use it effectively.
clannagh 12-06-06, 11:03 PM	with a mighty +4 bow, if you dont have +4 (18) str, then you have an equivalent negative when using it. im assuming that he was reffering to the fact that he needed to rage in order to get to +4 str, and hence use the bow properly, and that when not raging, his str was insufficient to use it effectively. indeed .. but he is correct that there is no attack penalty when you are raging just an AC loss which I did have confused
Dr.Cornelius 12-14-06, 05:58 AM	one neat trick with archer builds if you do not mind a BAB drop is to take a level of cleric with a deity with war and favored weapon longbow The Suel god Phaulkon will do it for you or if you are elven Solonira ThelandiraAbsolutely. One or two levels of Cleric adds a lot of value to an archer, especially in improving the achillies heel of poor Will save. Notes: Go with a 12 Wisdom - it may seem painful, but +1 Will save and +1 to Listen and Spot is not bad. Choose a diety with War domain and favored weapon Longbow. Recommend humans choose Phaulkon (War and Air domains) and Elves choose Solonor Thelandira (War and Celerity). One level of Cleric gains: +0 BAB (painful, but partially negated by +1 from Weapon Focus) +2 Will Save (very useful at higher levels - think of this as the poor man's Iron Will) Weapon Focus Longbow (War domain) +10ft movement in light armor (Celerity domain) Domain Bonus Spell: Expedititious Retreat (Celerity) or Obscuring Mist (Air) or Magic Weapon (War) 1st Level Spell: Blessed Aim or Resurgence or Lesser Vigor or Comprehend Languages Wisdom Bonus Spell: see above (remember - you can also convert the three 1st level spells to Cure Light for emergency healing). Ability to use Cleric scrolls - don't underestimate how useful it is to have a few 1st and 2nd level utility spells in reserve. Cleric also has Knowledge(Arcana), Spellcraft and Knowledge(Religion) as class skills, enabling easier entry into Occult Slayer or Pious Templar. By my reckoning, a one level dip into Cleric adds the equivalent of 2-3 feats at the cost of a BAB. For melee types the BAB loss is especially painful since it puts off getting to +6/+1 attacks until 7th level - but this is less of a downside for an archer with Rapid Shot.
Sieylianna 12-14-06, 08:27 AM	Domain Bonus Spell: Expedititious Retreat (Celerity) or Obscuring Mist (Air) or Magic Weapon (War) 1st Level Spell: Blessed Aim or Resurgence or Lesser Vigor or Comprehend Languages Wisdom Bonus Spell: see above (remember - you can also convert the three 1st level spells to Cure Light for emergency healing). You can not convert domain spells to CLW. You can convert your 1st and bonus spells to CLW. Ed
trollbill 12-14-06, 12:34 PM	There actually is no dex penalty sacrifice for raging. The only downside is the -2 ac penalty, and limited duration/crash afterwards. The dex penalty comes when you're fatigued afterwards, but then you're hosed all-around. Thankfully I'll be able to cast Lesser Restoration on myself by 8th level if it comes to that. You're going to spend 3 rounds in the middle of a battle to remove the effects of fatigue on yourself? Better to fill the slot with Bear's Endurance so that your Rage lasts 2 more rounds.
Mommy was an Orc 12-14-06, 01:13 PM	You're going to spend 3 rounds in the middle of a battle to remove the effects of fatigue on yourself? Better to fill the slot with Bear's Endurance so that your Rage lasts 2 more rounds. There's some problems with that - you can't actually cast Bear's Endurance in the middle of a Rage. Bear's Endurance is also an extremely low value spell - most fighter types will pick up a Con Amulet +2 at some point in the midlevels, meaning that while you gain two rounds, you lose one for the casting and one for the +2 you already have. Finally, Lesser Restoration is a 1st level Templar(aka Paladin) spell. In any case, if the halfling's Rage runs out, there are a lot bigger problems than casting spells...that's a combat that went at least 7+ rounds, which are very rare unless it is an opponent that engages, then retreats. At which point, you might just have those 3 rounds to cast.
solbergb 12-14-06, 03:22 PM	You're going to spend 3 rounds in the middle of a battle to remove the effects of fatigue on yourself? Usually you just drink a potion of lesser restoration. Then it only costs 1 round (and 300gp, which means you don't wanna do it too often). Archers should have this potion anyway to undo rays of enfeeblement.
Lord Yod 12-14-06, 03:57 PM	One of my buddies has an archer that's just silly good at low levels - we've yet to see how it works out at higher APL's, but it's lookin good so far. Wood Elf Str 18 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8 1 Ranger 1 Point Blank Shot (Favored Enemy: Human) 2 Fighter 1 Precise Shot 3 Ranger 2 (Rapid Shot), Mountain Warrior 4 Fighter 2 Weapon Focus(Longbow) 5 Monk 1 (Improved Grapple) 6 Monk 2 (Deflect Arrows), True Believer 7 Pious Templar 1 (Ehlonna) 8 Pious Templar 2 9 Pious Templar 3 (Far Shot), Imp. Crit(Longbow) 10 Pious Templar 4 11 Cragtop Archer 1 12 Cragtop Archer 2(open) 13 Cragtop Archer 3 14 Cragtop Archer 4 15 Cragtop Archer 5(open) He's currently level 4, has never failed a spot or listen check, and only missed about 5 attacks. One mod involved assaulting some patrol boats on a river. Various party members proposed sneaking, frontal assault, etc. I said 'Let's just stop 25 ft away and let Leon kill them.' Blank stares all around. 'No, really' After a minute they agreed. Round 1: 2 kills. Round 2: 2 kills. Round 3: 1 kill, the rest of the party manages to take down the last guy on the boat. Very typical for that guy. Around here(the Pale/NMR), most encounters we've seen have featured humans as the bad guys, so the FE has served very well. -Pete
Japangirl 12-14-06, 04:09 PM	I can see why FE humans. Ewww, Pholtans!
Lord Yod 12-14-06, 04:14 PM	Funny part is his regular adventuring buddies are all LG high-falutin Pholtans; we try and convert him every chance we get. :)
clannagh 12-14-06, 05:16 PM	One of my buddies has an archer that's just silly good at low levels - we've yet to see how it works out at higher APL's, but it's lookin good so far. Wood Elf Str 18 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 8 1 Ranger 1 Point Blank Shot (Favored Enemy: Human) 2 Fighter 1 Precise Shot 3 Ranger 2 (Rapid Shot), Mountain Warrior 4 Fighter 2 Weapon Focus(Longbow) 5 Monk 1 (Improved Grapple) 6 Monk 2 (Deflect Arrows), True Believer 7 Pious Templar 1 (Ehlonna) 8 Pious Templar 2 9 Pious Templar 3 (Far Shot), Imp. Crit(Longbow) 10 Pious Templar 4 11 Cragtop Archer 1 12 Cragtop Archer 2(open) 13 Cragtop Archer 3 14 Cragtop Archer 4 15 Cragtop Archer 5(open) He's currently level 4, has never failed a spot or listen check, and only missed about 5 attacks. One mod involved assaulting some patrol boats on a river. Various party members proposed sneaking, frontal assault, etc. I said 'Let's just stop 25 ft away and let Leon kill them.' Blank stares all around. 'No, really' After a minute they agreed. Round 1: 2 kills. Round 2: 2 kills. Round 3: 1 kill, the rest of the party manages to take down the last guy on the boat. Very typical for that guy. Around here(the Pale/NMR), most encounters we've seen have featured humans as the bad guys, so the FE has served very well. -Pete With all that cragtop you need to be able to fly .. or get a flying mount
JamesMaissen 12-16-06, 12:46 AM	Usually you just drink a potion of lesser restoration. Then it only costs 1 round (and 300gp, which means you don't wanna do it too often). Archers should have this potion anyway to undo rays of enfeeblement. How does lesser restoration undo a ray of enfeeblement? -James
Lord Yod 12-16-06, 08:38 PM	Lesser restoration dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject’s ability scores or cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to one of the subject’s ability scores... I think Ray of Enfeeblement counts.
budleiser 12-25-06, 05:20 PM	I think Ray of Enfeeblement counts. Ray of E is a penalty to STR. Not sure if that counts as reduction for L. Restoration.
CrystalBlue 12-27-06, 11:47 AM	Here's mine so far. I'm going for neat stuff. ^.^ Rng: Point Blank, Precise Fgt: Mounted Combat Rng: Rapid Shot, Mounted Archery Fgt: Weapon Focus (Longbow) Rng: Endurance Hoz: (forgot) Underground Hoz: Aquatic Hoz: Desert Hoz: (open) Forest Hoz: Mountains Hoz: Shadow The build works around my ranger specilizing in his...well...ranged. I've got a griffon, so I'm always going to be up in the air when possible. And the reason for Horizen Walker is the obvious Dim Door every 1d4 rounds. Plink away at an enemy until they get within charge range, then Dim Door to a safe location and continue to plink away. It's also useful for getting off my griffon or, if I'm not on him at the time, to get back on him. ^.^ Yay for the Plane of Shadows! Though, I don't know what to do after that. I'm kinda stumped for PrC progression. I was just thinking about going ranger some more, hoping for Natural Bond, and making my griffon my animal companion. That might work...
UMiskatonic 12-27-06, 06:22 PM	Order of the Bow initiate, or the arrow mind spell, allows you to use a bow without provoking. That's awesomely good. I'd fit in either a 4th level of Ranger, or the PrC. A lot of people like Pious Templar and Occult Slayer for archers. Finally, Quick draw is a good archer feat. It can mean the difference between one attack and four.
Sieylianna 12-27-06, 07:23 PM	Rng: Point Blank, Precise Fgt: Mounted Combat Rng: Rapid Shot, Mounted Archery Fgt: Weapon Focus (Longbow) And the reason for Horizen Walker is the obvious Dim Door every 1d4 rounds. Plink away at an enemy until they get within charge range, then Dim Door to a safe location and continue to plink away. I would start with two levels of ranger to get rapid shot at 2nd level. That will be far more valuable than mounted combat. I'd probably take weapon focus before either of the mounted feats. I'm not familiar with your region, but I have a difficult time bringing along a large animal companion, much less trying to become a flying archer. I think it's going to be a waste of two feats. And as far as Dim Door goes, that works fine until you play a module where the environment is dimensionally locked. If you haven't run into that yet, you will as you get up in APL (although I've seen it at APL 4). Ed
CrystalBlue 12-28-06, 09:46 AM	Meh...I live in Highfolk and this is a Shieldlands character. In those two regions, I've been nothing BUT outdoors. And if I can't take him in with me, oh well. I still have a bow and I'm a good back-up frontliner. He's already 8th level, and I've not seen a Dimentional Anchor at all with him. The problem is, I didn't see any real good archer feats. In fact, I still don't. So I went mounted combat and mounted archery for him on a horse...the griffon that I found's just an added bonus. ^.^
Sieylianna 12-28-06, 12:52 PM	Meh...I live in Highfolk and this is a Shieldlands character. In those two regions, I've been nothing BUT outdoors. And if I can't take him in with me, oh well. I still have a bow and I'm a good back-up frontliner. He's already 8th level, and I've not seen a Dimentional Anchor at all with him. The problem is, I didn't see any real good archer feats. In fact, I still don't. So I went mounted combat and mounted archery for him on a horse...the griffon that I found's just an added bonus. ^.^ There are good archer feats. Unfortunately, they have fairly high requirements if you're not a ranger. Either improved rapid shot or improved precise shot are worthwhile. There are also a couple of feats which are good for aerial archers, but I don't have my books here right now. I've seen a PC with the same basic concept using a flying carpet. Ed
CrystalBlue 12-28-06, 02:21 PM	What I'm hoping for are two feats. I can't remember where they are. One of them allows you to make an attack roll on a line of enemies and, if it hits the first one, goes through and continues on to the next target. The second one is one where I do more damage when I'm attacking from above.
Sieylianna 12-28-06, 06:44 PM	What I'm hoping for are two feats. I can't remember where they are. One of them allows you to make an attack roll on a line of enemies and, if it hits the first one, goes through and continues on to the next target. The second one is one where I do more damage when I'm attacking from above. I'm not familiar with the first. The second is plunging shot from Races of the Wild. Ed
Jay_Ibero_911 12-28-06, 07:40 PM	It might be silly, but I'd love to make an archer with a +1 Exploding Exit Wound composite longbow....It's practically a rail gun.
Lord Yod 12-28-06, 08:46 PM	One of them allows you to make an attack roll on a line of enemies and, if it hits the first one, goes through and continues on to the next target. That would be Penetrating Shot, from PHB2.
Swiftbrook 12-29-06, 08:51 AM	I'm not familiar with the first. The second is plunging shot from Races of the Wild. Ed The first is Penetrating Shot from PHB II
CrystalBlue 12-29-06, 11:21 AM	People told me I should go for Multi-shot...but I've never seen the use for that. I mean, my rapid shot at full BAB gives me so many more shots...and when I'm hasted? Hehe...4 arrows of death...though I do really need to find access to an energy type for my bow so I can start to do even more damage. 1d8+5 isn't cutting it anymore.
UMiskatonic 12-29-06, 11:29 AM	There will be times when staying where you are just isn't a viable option. So, you'll have to move. That's when multishot comes into play. Of course it's better to stand in one place and full attack. Do it if you can. I wouldn't be surprised to see enemies moving behind cover, deploying smokesticks, or rushing you with melee weapons.
CrystalBlue 12-29-06, 11:37 AM	True. And that's why I was also going to go OotBI with this character as well. I just don't see myself being able to stay away from my attackers if they rush me like that, so that's why I back-up with a falchion. It's not as good as my arrows for full attack, but it's helpful. If I wanted to go the one-hit route, I should have gone scout/ranger/OotBI. That would have given me 2d8 + 1d6 damage on one arrow, and let me rapid shot if I wanted to. But I didn't take scout with this character. I guess I always could at some point. Does the scout bonus mean that you have to move yourself or just that you are physically moving? Cause I know you can take a full attack while mounted. That would be sick. :P
Japangirl 12-29-06, 04:43 PM	If you go straight ranger, or at least four levels of it, you don't need OotBI. The spell Arrow Mind does that for you, and it's a swift spell so you can get a full attack after casting it. The spell lets you attack from melee range with a bow without provoking AoOs and also allows you to threaten with a bow.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-29-06, 09:31 PM	True. And that's why I was also going to go OotBI with this character as well. I just don't see myself being able to stay away from my attackers if they rush me like that, so that's why I back-up with a falchion. It's not as good as my arrows for full attack, but it's helpful. If I wanted to go the one-hit route, I should have gone scout/ranger/OotBI. That would have given me 2d8 + 1d6 damage on one arrow, and let me rapid shot if I wanted to. But I didn't take scout with this character. I guess I always could at some point. Does the scout bonus mean that you have to move yourself or just that you are physically moving? Cause I know you can take a full attack while mounted. That would be sick. :P You can't skirmish while mounted. It's in the Erratta...
clannagh 01-01-07, 06:34 PM	What I'm hoping for are two feats. I can't remember where they are. One of them allows you to make an attack roll on a line of enemies and, if it hits the first one, goes through and continues on to the next target. The second one is one where I do more damage when I'm attacking from above. If you spend a lot of time above (AKA flying mount) seriously consider cragtop archer.
solbergb 01-02-07, 08:03 PM	Ray of E is a penalty to STR. Not sure if that counts as reduction for L. Restoration. "Lesser restoration dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject's ability scores " What did you think it referred to? There are four meta-effects that lower attributes. 1. Penalties, usually temporary (touch of idocy, ray of enfeeblement) 2. Fatigue/Exhaustion (which is explicitly covered by the spell separately) 3. Ability damage (explicitly covered by the spell, separately) 4. Ability drain (explicitly NOT covered by the spell) If not Ray of enfeeblement and similar effects, what else could they possibly be referring to?
UMiskatonic 01-02-07, 11:00 PM	That, and Ray of Enfeeblement is specifically listed in the description of lesser restoration.
solbergb 01-03-07, 02:01 PM	That, and Ray of Enfeeblement is specifically listed in the description of lesser restoration. Ah...well not in the SRD which is probably where the confusion arises. I had a memory of it being more explicit but when I looked, what I qouted is what I found. Sometimes the book examples actually help :)