Argent/Elemental Savant-Build Ideas [Archive] - Wizards Community

Argent/Elemental Savant-Build Ideas [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RtrnofdMax
09-10-07, 01:28 PM Hello all. First a caveat: I don't really care if you dislike either of these classes. Some people seem to live to tell others that their builds are stupid. Read another post if this is you.

Ok, now that that little bit of housekeeping is done, here is my idea. I really like the idea of a force mage. Problem is, Argent Savant is a higher level prestige class. As a wizard I could take it after 9th level, sorcerer after 10th and warmage after 11th. I am leaning towards being a warmage because I have two friends who are already being a wizard and a sorcerer, respectively, and I want to be different. But to meet the prereqs for Argent Savant as a warmage, you have to use the three Advanced/Eclectic Learning abilities from levels 3, 6 and 11 to end up with the total of 5 force spells needed (3 + magic missile and orb of force). The most important being that 11th level one where you take the 5th level force spell.

I'm impatient though. I doubt I'm even going to be able to get up to 11th level to even use this PrC. So I took a look at Elemental Savant. This seemed like a neat one, especially for a warmage, but it looks like I have to choose either or on the PrCs. Taking ES at 7th level would eliminate my ability to get that 5th level force spell. So first question, is there any way you all know of to have a warmage use both of these classes?

I am also a fan of the reserve feats from the Complete Mage. Unfortunately, the two force ones seem either bad or ill-suited to this build. Blade of force works on thrown weapons/ranged ammo, but it seems better suited to melee. Invisible needle is just awful. 1d4 x highest spell level, a range increment of 5ft per spell level and you have to make a regular ranged attack (not touch). With 4th level spells that means you deal 4d4 damage from 20ft away. The elemental reserve feats seem much more powerful.

So maybe I ditch the force idea and focus on an elemental form of damage. The reserve feats Storm Bolt and Fiery burst both do 1d6 per spell level. Storm bolt lets you shoot a 20ft line which could hit multiple enemies and with no save, but it's only from 20ft max. Fiery burst lets you hit from 30ft away, possibly hitting 4 enemies if they cluster around, but they get a reflex save. I don't know if I really want to focus on fire anyways cuz it seems rather common.

So here are my questions encapsulated:
1) Is there any way to do Argent and Elemental Savant as a Warmage?
2) If not, do you suggest Sorcerer or Wizard?
3) If I go Warmage/ES, what type of elemental damage should I focus on?
4) Since you all see kind of what I'm going for (reserve feats, focused type of damage), any other suggestions?

Thanks all.
rutrow424
09-10-07, 04:20 PM I don't think there is a good way in LG to do both p-classes with a warmage. I would recommend wizard over sorcerer, which would allow you to do both quicker, and allows for more flexibility overall. Losing 1 caster level from ES (if you go that far) is also less painful to a wizard.

I have always been partial to air/lightning ES, and have toyed with warmage builds to go this path. It is not the most effective route (you fall behind 2 caster levels vs. a straight wizard by level 11) but you can overcome the "your element only" restriction more easily with the warmage versatility. In any ES build, I would suggest similar featsto what you would take as an evoker or other blaster - SF, GSF, Empower, Sculpt, etc. Take a reserve feat if you think it cool or effective (better for a WM who always has the spells available).

The only real problem is time - how much play do you think this PC will get before the end of 2008? I would be wary of any build that will take a while to become effective or what you deem "fun;" I have scrapped my kobold build and a monk I started because I don't think I will play them enough. My GHR PC is a paladin/sorcerer gish because it will be fun for me most of the way and peak at ~level 8-10. With straight spellcasters this is less of an issue but still a consideration.
UMiskatonic
09-10-07, 07:54 PM Cleric with Force domain can get into Argent Savant, I'm pretty sure. You might need Knowledge as well, but I think Boccob has both.
UMiskatonic
09-10-07, 07:56 PM And these REALLY don't fit with warmage. You know that, right? Some of the argent savant features are useless because you don't get shield or mage armor. You're just tossing a caster level away, and not getting anything back.

If you still want to do it, go right ahead, but it's going to be on the weak side.
jstorrie
09-10-07, 08:21 PM Elemental Savant is fine. Djinnbond (Fire) is a great feat for a fiery ES, as is Searing Spell. Your DCs get upped a nice bit, so any spells with an energy descriptor and a save-or-condition effect (like the Orb of... series, for example) are good spell choices. The Fire reserve feat, unfortunately, sucks. In fact, most of the elemental reserve feats suck.
RtrnofdMax
09-10-07, 10:54 PM So I figured out how to do it. If I take the arcane disciple feat (force domain), then I have my five spells up to fifth level before you even consider my regular spell list.
jstorrie
09-11-07, 02:44 AM You'd need a 15 Wis... that doesn't leave much for Dex, Int, Con and Cha.
rutrow424
09-11-07, 09:37 AM You'd need a 15 Wis... that doesn't leave much for Dex, Int, Con and Cha.

You could go with a 12-14 Wis and up it with a level bump and or magic items (ioun stone if you can). You need to dump STR and either one other or max the others at 12-14. Admittedly, not the best build for a warmage/ES since you want your save DCs high, but it is doable.
thorinXXX
09-11-07, 01:28 PM You do realize that ES removes one of the major advantages of a warmage? All spells with an elemental descriptor now have the descriptor of your chosen element. This is not optional. So now you have a warmage that can only use one element instead of being able to pick the right one for the siuation.
RtrnofdMax
09-11-07, 01:42 PM I am starting to see the weaknesses in this build. Perhaps, I am "building" too much. I think now I'm going to go with Holy Scourge and have that be my only PrC. Thank you all for your input, it has been helpful.
rutrow424
09-11-07, 03:14 PM You do realize that ES removes one of the major advantages of a warmage? All spells with an elemental descriptor now have the descriptor of your chosen element. This is not optional. So now you have a warmage that can only use one element instead of being able to pick the right one for the siuation.

That's where picking fire/cold as your element (for searing spell and its cold counterpart) is helpful. I still believe a warmage is well suited to overcome this anyways, with MM, orbs of force, sonic spells, and such to toss at will if needed. A wizard ES would have to have other options prepared also, though these may lean towards battlefield control or necromancy effects.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RtrnofdMax 09-10-07, 01:28 PM	Hello all. First a caveat: I don't really care if you dislike either of these classes. Some people seem to live to tell others that their builds are stupid. Read another post if this is you. Ok, now that that little bit of housekeeping is done, here is my idea. I really like the idea of a force mage. Problem is, Argent Savant is a higher level prestige class. As a wizard I could take it after 9th level, sorcerer after 10th and warmage after 11th. I am leaning towards being a warmage because I have two friends who are already being a wizard and a sorcerer, respectively, and I want to be different. But to meet the prereqs for Argent Savant as a warmage, you have to use the three Advanced/Eclectic Learning abilities from levels 3, 6 and 11 to end up with the total of 5 force spells needed (3 + magic missile and orb of force). The most important being that 11th level one where you take the 5th level force spell. I'm impatient though. I doubt I'm even going to be able to get up to 11th level to even use this PrC. So I took a look at Elemental Savant. This seemed like a neat one, especially for a warmage, but it looks like I have to choose either or on the PrCs. Taking ES at 7th level would eliminate my ability to get that 5th level force spell. So first question, is there any way you all know of to have a warmage use both of these classes? I am also a fan of the reserve feats from the Complete Mage. Unfortunately, the two force ones seem either bad or ill-suited to this build. Blade of force works on thrown weapons/ranged ammo, but it seems better suited to melee. Invisible needle is just awful. 1d4 x highest spell level, a range increment of 5ft per spell level and you have to make a regular ranged attack (not touch). With 4th level spells that means you deal 4d4 damage from 20ft away. The elemental reserve feats seem much more powerful. So maybe I ditch the force idea and focus on an elemental form of damage. The reserve feats Storm Bolt and Fiery burst both do 1d6 per spell level. Storm bolt lets you shoot a 20ft line which could hit multiple enemies and with no save, but it's only from 20ft max. Fiery burst lets you hit from 30ft away, possibly hitting 4 enemies if they cluster around, but they get a reflex save. I don't know if I really want to focus on fire anyways cuz it seems rather common. So here are my questions encapsulated: 1) Is there any way to do Argent and Elemental Savant as a Warmage? 2) If not, do you suggest Sorcerer or Wizard? 3) If I go Warmage/ES, what type of elemental damage should I focus on? 4) Since you all see kind of what I'm going for (reserve feats, focused type of damage), any other suggestions? Thanks all.
rutrow424 09-10-07, 04:20 PM	I don't think there is a good way in LG to do both p-classes with a warmage. I would recommend wizard over sorcerer, which would allow you to do both quicker, and allows for more flexibility overall. Losing 1 caster level from ES (if you go that far) is also less painful to a wizard. I have always been partial to air/lightning ES, and have toyed with warmage builds to go this path. It is not the most effective route (you fall behind 2 caster levels vs. a straight wizard by level 11) but you can overcome the "your element only" restriction more easily with the warmage versatility. In any ES build, I would suggest similar featsto what you would take as an evoker or other blaster - SF, GSF, Empower, Sculpt, etc. Take a reserve feat if you think it cool or effective (better for a WM who always has the spells available). The only real problem is time - how much play do you think this PC will get before the end of 2008? I would be wary of any build that will take a while to become effective or what you deem "fun;" I have scrapped my kobold build and a monk I started because I don't think I will play them enough. My GHR PC is a paladin/sorcerer gish because it will be fun for me most of the way and peak at ~level 8-10. With straight spellcasters this is less of an issue but still a consideration.
UMiskatonic 09-10-07, 07:54 PM	Cleric with Force domain can get into Argent Savant, I'm pretty sure. You might need Knowledge as well, but I think Boccob has both.
UMiskatonic 09-10-07, 07:56 PM	And these REALLY don't fit with warmage. You know that, right? Some of the argent savant features are useless because you don't get shield or mage armor. You're just tossing a caster level away, and not getting anything back. If you still want to do it, go right ahead, but it's going to be on the weak side.
jstorrie 09-10-07, 08:21 PM	Elemental Savant is fine. Djinnbond (Fire) is a great feat for a fiery ES, as is Searing Spell. Your DCs get upped a nice bit, so any spells with an energy descriptor and a save-or-condition effect (like the Orb of... series, for example) are good spell choices. The Fire reserve feat, unfortunately, sucks. In fact, most of the elemental reserve feats suck.
RtrnofdMax 09-10-07, 10:54 PM	So I figured out how to do it. If I take the arcane disciple feat (force domain), then I have my five spells up to fifth level before you even consider my regular spell list.
jstorrie 09-11-07, 02:44 AM	You'd need a 15 Wis... that doesn't leave much for Dex, Int, Con and Cha.
rutrow424 09-11-07, 09:37 AM	You'd need a 15 Wis... that doesn't leave much for Dex, Int, Con and Cha. You could go with a 12-14 Wis and up it with a level bump and or magic items (ioun stone if you can). You need to dump STR and either one other or max the others at 12-14. Admittedly, not the best build for a warmage/ES since you want your save DCs high, but it is doable.
thorinXXX 09-11-07, 01:28 PM	You do realize that ES removes one of the major advantages of a warmage? All spells with an elemental descriptor now have the descriptor of your chosen element. This is not optional. So now you have a warmage that can only use one element instead of being able to pick the right one for the siuation.
RtrnofdMax 09-11-07, 01:42 PM	I am starting to see the weaknesses in this build. Perhaps, I am "building" too much. I think now I'm going to go with Holy Scourge and have that be my only PrC. Thank you all for your input, it has been helpful.
rutrow424 09-11-07, 03:14 PM	You do realize that ES removes one of the major advantages of a warmage? All spells with an elemental descriptor now have the descriptor of your chosen element. This is not optional. So now you have a warmage that can only use one element instead of being able to pick the right one for the siuation. That's where picking fire/cold as your element (for searing spell and its cold counterpart) is helpful. I still believe a warmage is well suited to overcome this anyways, with MM, orbs of force, sonic spells, and such to toss at will if needed. A wizard ES would have to have other options prepared also, though these may lean towards battlefield control or necromancy effects.