Post/Author/DateTime	Post
trollbill 01-15-07, 05:17 PM	Here is an idea I am toying with. It isn't the most powerful build in the world, but it should be sufficient for LG. I am not sure what to do with the last 2 levels, so suggestions are welcome. Wood Elf ST: 17 DX: 16 CN: 12 IN: 10 WS: 10 CH: 10 1st: Ranger - Point-Blank Shot, Track, Favored Enemy - Human, Wild Empathy 2nd: Fighter - Precise Shot 3rd: Barbarian - Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe), Fast Movement +10, Rage 4th: Ranger - ST+1, Two-Weapon Fighting 5th: Fighter - Brutal Throw or Farshot? 6th: Ranger - Endurance, Extra Rage 7th: Wild Runner - Fast Movement +10, Trackless Step 8th: Wild Runner - ST+1, Primal Scream, Scent 9th: Master Thrower - Quickdraw, Rapid-shot, Dead-eye Shot 10th: Master Thrower - Evasion 11th: Master Thrower - Two with One Blow 12th: Master Thrower - ST+1, Improved Precise Shot, Snatch Arrows 13th: Master Thrower - Critical Throw, Weak Spot 14th: ???? 15th: ???? ST+1
clannagh 01-16-07, 01:12 AM	interesting .. actually attempting to make throwing big heavy things practical
_m_ 01-16-07, 01:25 AM	you NEED power throw and brutal throw. NEED.
Lupo 01-16-07, 02:34 AM	Here is an idea I am toying with. It isn't the most powerful build in the world, but it should be sufficient for LG. I am not sure what to do with the last 2 levels, so suggestions are welcome. Wood Elf ST: 17 DX: 16 CN: 12 IN: 10 WS: 10 CH: 10 1st: Ranger - Point-Blank Shot, Track, Favored Enemy - Human, Wild Empathy 2nd: Fighter - Precise Shot 3rd: Barbarian - Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe), Fast Movement +10, Rage 4th: Ranger - ST+1, Two-Weapon Fighting 5th: Fighter - Brutal Throw or Farshot? 6th: Ranger - Endurance, Extra Rage 7th: Wild Runner - Fast Movement +10, Trackless Step 8th: Wild Runner - ST+1, Primal Scream, Scent 9th: Master Thrower - Quickdraw, Rapid-shot, Dead-eye Shot 10th: Master Thrower - Evasion 11th: Master Thrower - Two with One Blow 12th: Master Thrower - ST+1, Improved Precise Shot, Snatch Arrows 13th: Master Thrower - Critical Throw, Weak Spot 14th: ???? 15th: ???? ST+1 "brutal throw" and "power throw" are the icing on a thrower, but you need "power attack as a prerequisite. look whether you can get a pious templar with a deity that has "throwing axe" as a favored weapon (just checked no such deity:(), hm then try to get "weapon spec." from somewhere else. the heavy feat requirements made me build a human "thrower" but with shortspear as weapon, as a shortspear can be used with "power attack" and "power throw", whereas "throwing axe" is a light martial weapon and therefore only can use "power throw" but not "power attack". ciao martin m.
paigeoliver 01-16-07, 04:10 AM	Any particular reason you bought all the mental stats up to 10? I wasn't suggesting dumping them all, but a single dump would probably really help out those physical scores.
Lupo 01-16-07, 07:51 AM	Any particular reason you bought all the mental stats up to 10? I wasn't suggesting dumping them all, but a single dump would probably really help out those physical scores. when you plan going to go the "brutal throw" route anyway (basically it lets your charcter use the strength modifier for ranged throwing attacks), you can get away with a dex of 14 and free up valuable points for strength and one mental stat ;) making it possible to go pious templar, or even work in one level of sorc, wiz or favored soul to get some nice spells that help. ciao martin m.
trollbill 01-16-07, 12:40 PM	you NEED power throw and brutal throw. NEED. Power Throw needs Power Attack as a pre-req. Since I would typically be meleeing with the Throwing Axes two-handed, Power Attack becomes a nearly wasted feat as they are light weapons. Brutal throw is in for consideration, but if I use both Rage and Primal Scream at the same time I get ST +6 and DX +6. This essentially means that by 12th level, Brutal Throw is giving me a +2 attack bonus because I have bumped my ST 4 points higher than my DX. Nice, but is it worth it compared to Far Shot, which might have a greater effect on my average attack rolls. I could up this to +3 by swapping 2 points of DX for 1 point of ST, but it isn’t as cost effective as simply having the higher DX which gives other benefits (AC, Reflex Save, lots of skills, etc). the heavy feat requirements made me build a human "thrower" but with shortspear as weapon, as a shortspear can be used with "power attack" and "power throw", whereas "throwing axe" is a light martial weapon and therefore only can use "power throw" but not "power attack". I certainly won’t argue there are better options for a Thrower than Throwing Axe. The idea that started this was, “Gee, wouldn’t an axe throwing character be really cool?” And I built from there. Any particular reason you bought all the mental stats up to 10? I wasn't suggesting dumping them all, but a single dump would probably really help out those physical scores. IN 10 was because the character needs skill points for the PRCs and for non-combat effectiveness. He’s wasting 8 skill points alone to get 4 ranks in Sleight-of-Hand for getting Master Thrower. WS 10 was because his Will save is going to suck enough as it is. CH 10 was so that he could Primal Scream the same number of times per day as he could Rage.
LGMoses 01-16-07, 12:56 PM	I haven't read nething about the build really but I just want to say that there is almost nothing cooler than thrwoing axes. Kick ass.
NeSoDak 01-16-07, 01:59 PM	I know you are going after throwing axes, but have you looked at throwing spears? I play a halfling spear chucker and as soon as I get power throw, I should be somewhere in the range of +20/+15/+10/+20 attack with 1d6+6+power throw for damage. This is at level 11 without any magical stat boosters. The extra attack is from Rapid Shot. I didn't quite make him right when I created him, because he was created before Brutal Throw became a feat. If I would have known about that before creation his Strength would be much higher and his dex would be lower.
LGMoses 01-16-07, 02:07 PM	screw spears, axes look much cooler....
Alpha_Nerd 01-16-07, 02:13 PM	Do returning weapons return fast enough for iterative attacks or would you need 1 magic weapon per attack? Say, if you had a 6 bab and ITWF would you need 4 +1 returning throwing axes?
LGMoses 01-16-07, 02:15 PM	Do returning weapons return fast enough for iterative attacks or would you need 1 magic weapon per attack? Say, if you had a 6 bab and ITWF would you need 4 +1 returning throwing axes? that is a good question actually. Someone competent plz answer.
CrystalBlue 01-16-07, 04:03 PM	The axes would not come back instantly, so you do need one for each attack. I have a 'friend' that says his master thrower can put out about 8 daggers in a turn and make 16 attacks because of one of the skills. Is this true, or is he BSing me?
Vanadium 01-16-07, 04:11 PM	The axes would not come back instantly, so you do need one for each attack. I have a 'friend' that says his master thrower can put out about 8 daggers in a turn and make 16 attacks because of one of the skills. Is this true, or is he BSing me? Pretty easy to do. Needs feats, though: TWF, ITWF, maybe GTWF, good BAB, Haste, Rapid Shot, etc... I mean, if he wanted to at, say level 12 (due to feats), he could have that number: 3 on the main hand due to BAB, 3 on the off hand due to feats, 1 from rapid shot, and 1 more from haste. The Master Thrower trick Palm Throw brings that up to 16 daggers in the air for a full attack. Then again, the two daggers together make a volley attack, so precision based damage is less effective than you'd think. Power Throw, on the other hand, especially with Weak Spot considered, looks nice. That is also feat intensive, though.
jstorrie 01-16-07, 05:16 PM	The best throwing builds are, in order: hammers (Battlesmithed), then javelins/spears/tridents (Stormlorded), and then shurikens (flurried), daggers, and skiprocks. I wouldn't play the last three for lack of power, if that tells you anything about throwing axes, which don't even make the scale...
NeSoDak 01-16-07, 05:20 PM	that is a good question actually. Someone competent plz answer. Actually, the weapon returns at the begining of your next turn to the square you threw it from. So if you move after you throw, the weapon returns to where you were, not where you are currently at. I had the chance to put this on a spear, but decided against it since my character is constantly on the move.
trollbill 01-16-07, 11:31 PM	The best throwing builds are, in order: hammers (Battlesmithed), then javelins/spears/tridents (Stormlorded), and then shurikens (flurried), daggers, and skiprocks. I wouldn't play the last three for lack of power, if that tells you anything about throwing axes, which don't even make the scale... Geez, what is it with you and uber power builds? LG isn't that deadly that you can't afford to run a character that isn't uber-optimized. I can understand not liking below average builds, but if you optimize a substandard concept, you should still come up with something playable. Certainly I have seen a lot worse builds than the one I used above in LG.
jstorrie 01-17-07, 03:13 PM	The problem with your build isn't that it's not 'uber power.' What you've posted is less powerful than normal-powered. Have fun at APL8 when your 1d6+Str axes can't beat DR 10, you have to risk getting hit because throwing axes have such short range increments and you don't carry a shield, and you don't even have Rapid Shot yet. I'm being critical of your build because at a certain point it's going to stop working. What I would strongly recommend is that you pick up Rapid Shot as your Ranger bonus feat, and ignore TWF. Use a shield and throw with just one hand. Move your points from Dex over to Con. Take Power Attack and Power Throw, so at low levels you can switch to a one-handed non-light melee weapon to Power Attack through DR and at the high levels Power Throw/Weak Spot through DR.
trollbill 01-17-07, 04:31 PM	The problem with your build isn't that it's not 'uber power.' What you've posted is less powerful than normal-powered. Maybe in your neck of the woods, but you haven't seen a lot of the builds I have in my area. Have fun at APL8 when your 1d6+Str axes can't beat DR 10, you have to risk getting hit because throwing axes have such short range increments and you don't carry a shield, and you don't even have Rapid Shot yet. I'm being critical of your build because at a certain point it's going to stop working. Ah, see. Now we're getting something a little more than just "Axes Suck!" The original idea was to build as effective an Axe Thrower as I could. Now at level 8 I would be doing 1d6+7 (for ST) before I add in any magic or Strength bump items, which I should have by then. I fail to see how this differs from the average archer. You are right about the Rapid-Shot problem though. I will have to move Master Thrower into the build earlier to get the Quick Draw, as the Rapid-Shot is useless without it (which was why I went with TWF instead for the second Ranger level). What I would strongly recommend is that you pick up Rapid Shot as your Ranger bonus feat, and ignore TWF. Use a shield and throw with just one hand. Move your points from Dex over to Con. Take Power Attack and Power Throw, so at low levels you can switch to a one-handed non-light melee weapon to Power Attack through DR and at the high levels Power Throw/Weak Spot through DR. I think I’d rather use a two-handed weapon for melee if I was going to get Power Attack. Lets try it the strength way. Wood Elf ST: 18 DX: 14 CN: 12 IN: 10 WS: 10 CH: 10 1st: Ranger - Point-Blank Shot, Track, Favored Enemy - Human, Wild Empathy 2nd: Fighter - Precise Shot 3rd: Barbarian – Brutal Throw, Fast Movement +10, Rage 4th: Fighter – ST +1, Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe) 5th: Ranger – Rapid Shot 6th: Master Thrower – Quickdraw, Two with One Blow, Power Attack 7th: Ranger - Endurance 8th: Wild Runner – ST+1, Fast Movement +10, Trackless Step 9th: Wild Runner - Primal Scream, Scent, Power Throw 10th: Master Thrower - Evasion 11th: Master Thrower – Deadeye Shot 12th: Master Thrower - ST+1, Improved Precise Shot, Snatch Arrows 13th: Master Thrower - Critical Throw, Weak Spot 14th: ???? 15th: ???? ST+1 Hmmm…not sure I like this as I lose both TWF and Extra Rage. Maybe a Human would work better for this: Human ST: 17 DX: 14 CN: 14 IN: 9 WS: 10 CH: 8 1st: Ranger - Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Track, Favored Enemy - Human, Wild Empathy 2nd: Fighter – Power Attack 3rd: Barbarian – Brutal Throw, Fast Movement +10, Rage 4th: Fighter – ST +1, Power Throw 5th: Ranger – Rapid Shot 6th: Fighter – Weapon Focus (Throwing Axe) 7th: Master Thrower – Quickdraw, Two with One Blow 8th: Fighter – ST+1, Weapon Specialization (Throwing Axe) 9th: Fighter – Extra Rage 10th: Fighter – Far Shot 11th: Master Thrower – Evasion 12th: Master Thrower – ST+1, Improved Precise Shot, Deadeye Shot 13th: Master Thrower – Snatch Arrow 14th: Master Thrower – Critical Throw, Weak Spot 15th: ???? Hmmm…what do you think?
jstorrie 01-17-07, 04:55 PM	As Power Throw-Weak Spot is the point at which this build 'takes off', I think I would probably do this like 1 Ranger Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Track, FE: Human 2 Fighter Weapon Focus: Throwing Axe 3 Barbarian Brutal Throw 4 Fighter Power Attack 5 Ranger Rapid Shot 6 Master Thrower Quickdraw, Power Throw, Two With One Blow 7 Master Thrower Doubletoss 8 Master Thrower Deadeye Shot 9 Master Thrower Defensive Throw, Extra Rage 10 Master Thrower Weak Spot 11 Fighter 12 Fighter Weapon Spec: Throwing Axe, Improved Precise Shot You want to get to MT 5 as quickly as possible, really. You're going to start running into DR around APL6, realistically speaking (it happens at APL4, but at least not super-commonly). By getting Brutal Throw and Rapid Shot both by CL3, you don't have to worry about being ineffective at APL4-6; likewise Weak Spot-Power Throw at APL10+. At APL8 you will be a little behind the archers with mighty +1 frost longbows, though.
trollbill 01-17-07, 05:28 PM	Thanks, but that doesn't work. Power Attack is a prereg for Power Throw. And again, the Rapid Shot doesn't do me any good until I get Quick Draw for free with my first level of Master Thrower.
jstorrie 01-17-07, 06:13 PM	Good call, I had something mixed up in there. Edited. Cragtop Archer requires Far Shot anyway, I think.
Iswald 01-20-07, 09:00 AM	Power Throw needs Power Attack as a pre-req. Since I would typically be meleeing with the Throwing Axes two-handed, Power Attack becomes a nearly wasted feat as they are light weapons. Light weapons used in two hands are still treated as one handed weapons WRT bonus damage from strength. Maybe you meant you'd TWF with them in melee? Have you considered throwing exotic melee weapons with the Throw Anything feat? The axes would not come back instantly, so you do need one for each attack. I have a 'friend' that says his master thrower can put out about 8 daggers in a turn and make 16 attacks because of one of the skills. Is this true, or is he BSing me? He is probably using palm throw as a master thrower in addition to rapid shot, TWF, ITWF and haste. BAB 16 for four attacks and having four extra attacks, each of which is doubled with palm throw for 16 total. Alternatively, using the same eight attacks, use two with one blow to attack adjacent targets a total of 16 times. You have to realize that these are only daggers and won't do much damage unless a large amount of money is spent enhancing them. You need a returning weapon for each attack. If you look at the Whisperknife PrC in RW, you'll see class abilities to get around this a bit.