baklunish occult slayer [Archive] - Wizards Community

baklunish occult slayer [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lupo
05-15-07, 08:48 AM moved from the general board:

Hello,

I was wondering if people had suggestions for a melee Occult Slayer build for a Baklunish human? I'd greatly appreciate any help as my last two characters turned out, how to put this politely, less than optimal.
Thanks!

something like a ranger/fighter/occult slayer/dervish

occult slayer prerequisites:
BAB: +5
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Spellcraft 3
Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (any Weapon)

dervish prerequisites:
BAB: +5
Skills: Perform (Dance) 3, Tumble 3
Feats: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus (any slashing melee weapon)

human

STR 16 (10), DEX 14 (6), CON 14 (6), INT 12 (4), WIS 10 (2), CHA 8 (0)

1: ranger 1: favored enemy, track, wild empathy, weapon focus (guisarme), dodge; 32 skill points, all the necessary cross class skills two ranks

guisarme allows a dervish the following trick: attack foe for a trip, dance some more ten feet, attack foe on the ground for an additional bonus on the atack roll, if one takes the improved trip feat, it becomes even more deadly.

take the favored enemy race that sports the most spellcasters in your region, might be human ;)

2: fighter 1: improved initiative; 4 skill points, all the necessary cross class skills 2.5 ranks

3: ranger 2: two weapon fighting or rapid shot, mobility; 8 skill points, all the necessary cross class skills 3 ranks, keep survival as high as possible track is sometimes a MUST.

(as two weapon fighting with scimitars denies a dervish power attack, this one will only be useful with something like two longswords for a -4/-4 on the attack so one can just take rapid shot, to help those encounters where dervish's dance isn't an option)

4: fighter 2: (stat boost to INT), combat expertise; 4 skill points, knowledge (arcana) 3.5, any other skill points "parked" in class skills

5: fighter 3: (just to get weapon specialization); 4 skill points, knowledge (arcana) 4, any other skill points "parked" in class skills

one could now take the first prestige class level, but the opportunity is just to juicy so one might take:

6: fighter 4: weapon specialization (guisarme), melee weapon mastery (slashing)

this combination adds +2 on attacks and +4 on damage without taking away any attack bonus - and you might have some points of attack bonus to use with combat expertise, whereas the faster route towards the prestige classes would now take power attack.

7: occult slayer 1: magical defense +1, weapon bond

8: dervish 1: dervish dance 1/day, movement mastery, slashing blades; retain 4 skill points into perform (dance)

9: occult slayer 2: vicious strike, mind over magic 1/day, improved trip

from now on dervish till retirement :) and retrain as many skill points into perform (dance) as you can.

this build is one of the few fighters that isn't dependent on power attack, one might still take power attack at level 12, but the build adds so many points to damage that isn't as necessary as for other fighters.

ciao

martin m.
_metz_
05-15-07, 12:21 PM moved from the general board:

human

STR 16 (10), DEX 14 (6), CON 14 (6), INT 12 (4), WIS 10 (2), CHA 8 (0)

4: fighter 2: (stat boost to INT), combat expertise; 4 skill points, knowledge (arcana) 3.5, any other skill points "parked" in class skills

martin m.

This makes little sense to me.

why not start with str 15 then and Int 14? thats an extra 4 skill points and then 1 more every level, and you end up with a higher stat.

Also you need to be able to take "whole ranks" in skills as far as I know. Can't have 3.5 ranks in my knowledge (could be wrong)
Japangirl
05-15-07, 12:26 PM Well, you can have 3.5 ranks in a knowledge if you're cross-classing it, but it only counts as 3 ranks for any game purpose you can think of (rolling a check, meeting PrC or feat requirements, etc).
bitznarf
05-15-07, 12:26 PM This makes little sense to me.

why not start with str 15 then and Int 14? thats an extra 4 skill points and then 1 more every level, and you end up with a higher stat.

Also you need to be able to take "whole ranks" in skills as far as I know. Can't have 3.5 ranks in my knowledge (could be wrong)
Yes, you can. You can't invest 1/2 a skill point, but you can have half a rank.
From the SRD:
"If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get ½ rank per skill point."
"The maximum rank in a class skill is the character’s level + 3. If it’s a cross-class skill, the maximum rank is half of that number (do not round up or down)."
Thus, because we don't round down the max will be X.5 a lot of times. Without the ability to have 1/2 a rank, this is not the actual max, and we would round down all the time.
_metz_
05-15-07, 12:31 PM SO I can have a starting character with .5 a rank in all my skills? (choose cross class)

Does that mean I am trained in them?

How exactly does that work - Seems a bit like a fudge to me. I always invest 2 points in a cross class skill to ensure its legal and makes sense. Sounds like an optimization fudge to me that is kinda breaking the spirit of the concept, but hey if its a rule then its a rule.
Japangirl
05-15-07, 12:37 PM Umm, ETV on that one. I would like to say you need a full rank to use a trained only skill, but looking at the SRD (I'll check the paper PHB and DMG in a bit) it's not clear.
bitznarf
05-15-07, 12:38 PM SO I can have a starting character with .5 a rank in all my skills? (choose cross class)

Does that mean I am trained in them?

How exactly does that work - Seems a bit like a fudge to me. I always invest 2 points in a cross class skill to ensure its legal and makes sense. Sounds like an optimization fudge to me that is kinda breaking the spirit of the concept, but hey if its a rule then its a rule.
Yes you can, and yes it does. And no it's not a fudge. Nor does it break the spirit of something. The number of ranks you have has nothing to do with being trained in a skill beyond the need to have invested at least 1 skill point. What that skill point gets you is a matter of what class you are taking, nothing else. Sure, its simpler to just invest 2 points at a time, but then how do you keep cross-class skills maxed? How exactly does it seem like a fudge or breaking the spirit of the rules to you?
Lupo
05-15-07, 12:40 PM This makes little sense to me.

why not start with str 15 then and Int 14? thats an extra 4 skill points and then 1 more every level, and you end up with a higher stat.

it is just to have the highest possible attack bonus from the start :) otherwise you are correct, in the end your proposal would have a STR 18 and INT 14 while mine would end with STR 18 and INT 13. both will get the STR 18 at level 12. but your build has to run the first three levels with lower STR and that is where one single point of attack and damage bonus makes the biggest difference - at least to my experience ;).

with the ranger and dervish levels and as a human the build hardly runs out of skill points anyway and the INT 14 has no real advantage for this character - maybe if another skill is needed for MO requirements, or the additional language is needed for in character reasons :cool:.

ciao

martin m.
_metz_
05-15-07, 12:50 PM Yes you can, and yes it does. And no it's not a fudge. Nor does it break the spirit of something. The number of ranks you have has nothing to do with being trained in a skill beyond the need to have invested at least 1 skill point. What that skill point gets you is a matter of what class you are taking, nothing else. Sure, its simpler to just invest 2 points at a time, but then how do you keep cross-class skills maxed? How exactly does it seem like a fudge or breaking the spirit of the rules to you?

I don't like throwing fractions into DnD game mechanics, it really clouds things up, and makes it much more about the rules and maths then it perhaps should be.

But this is good to know, now when I am cross classing a skill into something I just want to be able to do untrained (e.g: Decipher script with a high int rogue/swashbuckler) I will just put in half a rank so can do it, without wasting a WHOLE skill point.

Same with Knowledges with my rogue.

If you are ok with it, then fine. But I am not ok with that.
Genghis Cohen
05-15-07, 01:36 PM Hello,

I was wondering if people had suggestions for a melee Occult Slayer build for a Baklunish human? I'd greatly appreciate any help as my last two characters turned out, how to put this politely, less than optimal.
Thanks!

I'm at work without my books, so I might have errors.
This is a variation of a build that I've been playing with:
St 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8

1. Monk - Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike
2. Monk - Combat Reflexes
3. Fighter - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain
4. Fighter - Dodge
5. Fighter
6. Fighter - Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain), Mobility
7. EWM - Exotic Reach
8. EWM - Flurry of Strikes
9. Occult Slayer - Elusive Target
10. Occult Slayer
11. Occult Slayer
12. Occult Slayer - Melee Weapon Mastery
13. Occult Slayer
14 EWM - The trick that allows you to use Stunning Fist with a weapon
15. Whatever
bitznarf
05-15-07, 01:59 PM I don't like throwing fractions into DnD game mechanics, it really clouds things up, and makes it much more about the rules and maths then it perhaps should be.

But this is good to know, now when I am cross classing a skill into something I just want to be able to do untrained (e.g: Decipher script with a high int rogue/swashbuckler) I will just put in half a rank so can do it, without wasting a WHOLE skill point.

Same with Knowledges with my rogue.

If you are ok with it, then fine. But I am not ok with that.
You can't put 1/2 a skill point in. You can put 1 skill point in and get 1/2 a rank on a cross class skill. Big difference here.
zoinks69
05-15-07, 02:12 PM I don't like throwing fractions into DnD game mechanics, it really clouds things up, and makes it much more about the rules and maths then it perhaps should be.

But this is good to know, now when I am cross classing a skill into something I just want to be able to do untrained (e.g: Decipher script with a high int rogue/swashbuckler) I will just put in half a rank so can do it, without wasting a WHOLE skill point.

Same with Knowledges with my rogue.

If you are ok with it, then fine. But I am not ok with that.

I don't have text to quote, but I remember looking this up for the sake of my own PC to determine how many points I needed to spend to be able to roll Tumble checks. The answer I came up with was 1 rank (in his case...2 skill points). You're usually not helping yourself by investing 1/2 a rank, even if it is/was the case that doing so would allow you to roll the check. Most such checks have DCs that ramp up with APL and your Int bonus will never keep pace with it (though you could be very lucky and always roll high, I guess).
dragon2007
05-16-07, 12:05 AM Thank you all for your help in this build. I was wondering, would 2 or 3 levels of Hexblade be a good start to the build? I thought that the Arcane Resistance and Mettle would be good additions for a character designed to fight casters. I'm not trying to question anyone's suggestions, I just want to explore all options to make the character as competitive as possible.
Thanks!

Dan
Timlagor
05-18-07, 06:47 AM They are useful abilities but people generally only recommend Hexblade to get the Class Skills. It's not a bad option but be sure to look at what you're giving up.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lupo 05-15-07, 08:48 AM	moved from the general board: Hello, I was wondering if people had suggestions for a melee Occult Slayer build for a Baklunish human? I'd greatly appreciate any help as my last two characters turned out, how to put this politely, less than optimal. Thanks! something like a ranger/fighter/occult slayer/dervish occult slayer prerequisites: BAB: +5 Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Spellcraft 3 Feats: Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (any Weapon) dervish prerequisites: BAB: +5 Skills: Perform (Dance) 3, Tumble 3 Feats: Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus (any slashing melee weapon) human STR 16 (10), DEX 14 (6), CON 14 (6), INT 12 (4), WIS 10 (2), CHA 8 (0) 1: ranger 1: favored enemy, track, wild empathy, weapon focus (guisarme), dodge; 32 skill points, all the necessary cross class skills two ranks guisarme allows a dervish the following trick: attack foe for a trip, dance some more ten feet, attack foe on the ground for an additional bonus on the atack roll, if one takes the improved trip feat, it becomes even more deadly. take the favored enemy race that sports the most spellcasters in your region, might be human ;) 2: fighter 1: improved initiative; 4 skill points, all the necessary cross class skills 2.5 ranks 3: ranger 2: two weapon fighting or rapid shot, mobility; 8 skill points, all the necessary cross class skills 3 ranks, keep survival as high as possible track is sometimes a MUST. (as two weapon fighting with scimitars denies a dervish power attack, this one will only be useful with something like two longswords for a -4/-4 on the attack so one can just take rapid shot, to help those encounters where dervish's dance isn't an option) 4: fighter 2: (stat boost to INT), combat expertise; 4 skill points, knowledge (arcana) 3.5, any other skill points "parked" in class skills 5: fighter 3: (just to get weapon specialization); 4 skill points, knowledge (arcana) 4, any other skill points "parked" in class skills one could now take the first prestige class level, but the opportunity is just to juicy so one might take: 6: fighter 4: weapon specialization (guisarme), melee weapon mastery (slashing) this combination adds +2 on attacks and +4 on damage without taking away any attack bonus - and you might have some points of attack bonus to use with combat expertise, whereas the faster route towards the prestige classes would now take power attack. 7: occult slayer 1: magical defense +1, weapon bond 8: dervish 1: dervish dance 1/day, movement mastery, slashing blades; retain 4 skill points into perform (dance) 9: occult slayer 2: vicious strike, mind over magic 1/day, improved trip from now on dervish till retirement :) and retrain as many skill points into perform (dance) as you can. this build is one of the few fighters that isn't dependent on power attack, one might still take power attack at level 12, but the build adds so many points to damage that isn't as necessary as for other fighters. ciao martin m.
_metz_ 05-15-07, 12:21 PM	moved from the general board: human STR 16 (10), DEX 14 (6), CON 14 (6), INT 12 (4), WIS 10 (2), CHA 8 (0) 4: fighter 2: (stat boost to INT), combat expertise; 4 skill points, knowledge (arcana) 3.5, any other skill points "parked" in class skills martin m. This makes little sense to me. why not start with str 15 then and Int 14? thats an extra 4 skill points and then 1 more every level, and you end up with a higher stat. Also you need to be able to take "whole ranks" in skills as far as I know. Can't have 3.5 ranks in my knowledge (could be wrong)
Japangirl 05-15-07, 12:26 PM	Well, you can have 3.5 ranks in a knowledge if you're cross-classing it, but it only counts as 3 ranks for any game purpose you can think of (rolling a check, meeting PrC or feat requirements, etc).
bitznarf 05-15-07, 12:26 PM	This makes little sense to me. why not start with str 15 then and Int 14? thats an extra 4 skill points and then 1 more every level, and you end up with a higher stat. Also you need to be able to take "whole ranks" in skills as far as I know. Can't have 3.5 ranks in my knowledge (could be wrong) Yes, you can. You can't invest 1/2 a skill point, but you can have half a rank. From the SRD: "If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get ½ rank per skill point." "The maximum rank in a class skill is the character’s level + 3. If it’s a cross-class skill, the maximum rank is half of that number (do not round up or down)." Thus, because we don't round down the max will be X.5 a lot of times. Without the ability to have 1/2 a rank, this is not the actual max, and we would round down all the time.
_metz_ 05-15-07, 12:31 PM	SO I can have a starting character with .5 a rank in all my skills? (choose cross class) Does that mean I am trained in them? How exactly does that work - Seems a bit like a fudge to me. I always invest 2 points in a cross class skill to ensure its legal and makes sense. Sounds like an optimization fudge to me that is kinda breaking the spirit of the concept, but hey if its a rule then its a rule.
Japangirl 05-15-07, 12:37 PM	Umm, ETV on that one. I would like to say you need a full rank to use a trained only skill, but looking at the SRD (I'll check the paper PHB and DMG in a bit) it's not clear.
bitznarf 05-15-07, 12:38 PM	SO I can have a starting character with .5 a rank in all my skills? (choose cross class) Does that mean I am trained in them? How exactly does that work - Seems a bit like a fudge to me. I always invest 2 points in a cross class skill to ensure its legal and makes sense. Sounds like an optimization fudge to me that is kinda breaking the spirit of the concept, but hey if its a rule then its a rule. Yes you can, and yes it does. And no it's not a fudge. Nor does it break the spirit of something. The number of ranks you have has nothing to do with being trained in a skill beyond the need to have invested at least 1 skill point. What that skill point gets you is a matter of what class you are taking, nothing else. Sure, its simpler to just invest 2 points at a time, but then how do you keep cross-class skills maxed? How exactly does it seem like a fudge or breaking the spirit of the rules to you?
Lupo 05-15-07, 12:40 PM	This makes little sense to me. why not start with str 15 then and Int 14? thats an extra 4 skill points and then 1 more every level, and you end up with a higher stat. it is just to have the highest possible attack bonus from the start :) otherwise you are correct, in the end your proposal would have a STR 18 and INT 14 while mine would end with STR 18 and INT 13. both will get the STR 18 at level 12. but your build has to run the first three levels with lower STR and that is where one single point of attack and damage bonus makes the biggest difference - at least to my experience ;). with the ranger and dervish levels and as a human the build hardly runs out of skill points anyway and the INT 14 has no real advantage for this character - maybe if another skill is needed for MO requirements, or the additional language is needed for in character reasons :cool:. ciao martin m.
_metz_ 05-15-07, 12:50 PM	Yes you can, and yes it does. And no it's not a fudge. Nor does it break the spirit of something. The number of ranks you have has nothing to do with being trained in a skill beyond the need to have invested at least 1 skill point. What that skill point gets you is a matter of what class you are taking, nothing else. Sure, its simpler to just invest 2 points at a time, but then how do you keep cross-class skills maxed? How exactly does it seem like a fudge or breaking the spirit of the rules to you? I don't like throwing fractions into DnD game mechanics, it really clouds things up, and makes it much more about the rules and maths then it perhaps should be. But this is good to know, now when I am cross classing a skill into something I just want to be able to do untrained (e.g: Decipher script with a high int rogue/swashbuckler) I will just put in half a rank so can do it, without wasting a WHOLE skill point. Same with Knowledges with my rogue. If you are ok with it, then fine. But I am not ok with that.
Genghis Cohen 05-15-07, 01:36 PM	Hello, I was wondering if people had suggestions for a melee Occult Slayer build for a Baklunish human? I'd greatly appreciate any help as my last two characters turned out, how to put this politely, less than optimal. Thanks! I'm at work without my books, so I might have errors. This is a variation of a build that I've been playing with: St 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8 1. Monk - Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Stunning Fist, Unarmed Strike 2. Monk - Combat Reflexes 3. Fighter - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain), Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain 4. Fighter - Dodge 5. Fighter 6. Fighter - Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain), Mobility 7. EWM - Exotic Reach 8. EWM - Flurry of Strikes 9. Occult Slayer - Elusive Target 10. Occult Slayer 11. Occult Slayer 12. Occult Slayer - Melee Weapon Mastery 13. Occult Slayer 14 EWM - The trick that allows you to use Stunning Fist with a weapon 15. Whatever
bitznarf 05-15-07, 01:59 PM	I don't like throwing fractions into DnD game mechanics, it really clouds things up, and makes it much more about the rules and maths then it perhaps should be. But this is good to know, now when I am cross classing a skill into something I just want to be able to do untrained (e.g: Decipher script with a high int rogue/swashbuckler) I will just put in half a rank so can do it, without wasting a WHOLE skill point. Same with Knowledges with my rogue. If you are ok with it, then fine. But I am not ok with that. You can't put 1/2 a skill point in. You can put 1 skill point in and get 1/2 a rank on a cross class skill. Big difference here.
zoinks69 05-15-07, 02:12 PM	I don't like throwing fractions into DnD game mechanics, it really clouds things up, and makes it much more about the rules and maths then it perhaps should be. But this is good to know, now when I am cross classing a skill into something I just want to be able to do untrained (e.g: Decipher script with a high int rogue/swashbuckler) I will just put in half a rank so can do it, without wasting a WHOLE skill point. Same with Knowledges with my rogue. If you are ok with it, then fine. But I am not ok with that. I don't have text to quote, but I remember looking this up for the sake of my own PC to determine how many points I needed to spend to be able to roll Tumble checks. The answer I came up with was 1 rank (in his case...2 skill points). You're usually not helping yourself by investing 1/2 a rank, even if it is/was the case that doing so would allow you to roll the check. Most such checks have DCs that ramp up with APL and your Int bonus will never keep pace with it (though you could be very lucky and always roll high, I guess).
dragon2007 05-16-07, 12:05 AM	Thank you all for your help in this build. I was wondering, would 2 or 3 levels of Hexblade be a good start to the build? I thought that the Arcane Resistance and Mettle would be good additions for a character designed to fight casters. I'm not trying to question anyone's suggestions, I just want to explore all options to make the character as competitive as possible. Thanks! Dan
Timlagor 05-18-07, 06:47 AM	They are useful abilities but people generally only recommend Hexblade to get the Class Skills. It's not a bad option but be sure to look at what you're giving up.