Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kaikai 06-17-07, 06:38 PM	which would you choose? Half Orc all strength Strength 20 (+5) Dexterity 14 (+2) Constitution 14 (+2) Intelligence 6 (-2) Wisdom 8 (-1) Charisma 6 (-2) Half Orc more dex Strength 18 (+4) Dexterity 16 (+3) Constitution 14 (+2) Intelligence 6 (-2) Wisdom 10 (0) Charisma 6 (-2) Half Orc Will saves Strength 18 (+4) Dexterity 14 (+2) Constitution 14 (+2) Intelligence 6 (-2) Wisdom 14 (+2) Charisma 6 (-2) is it worth being a half orc, or is going human for that extra feat a better choice?
Ralis 06-17-07, 11:23 PM	It depends alot on what you want to be able to do with your barbarian, and if you want choices for possibly muti-classing. I suggest looking over the open prestige classes, find one that you like, then plan out what it would take to get to that by level five or six.
jstorrie 06-17-07, 11:34 PM	Humans are generally better, unless you're doing some sort of Intimidating Rage/Menacing Brute mash-up (which, trust me, doesn't stat out all that well.) That bonus feat could mean you have Extra Rage and Reckless Rage at level 1–making up for the lower human strength and leaving you a bit more powerful in the long run. That +1 skill point and relative +2 Int definitely help a lot when you don't want to be the guy who only has 1 skill point per level... Your mental stats are going to be depend on what you want to do in the long run. You can do a great multiclass Barbarian/Fighter with Reckless Rage and Karmic Strike–this means you'd want 14 Int. Or you could do a 596-style Pious Templar with Combat Form feats–then you'd want 14 Wis. Generally speaking you're better off shoring up your Will save with smart multiclassing than spending points in the Wis stat, so think carefully about exactly what you'd be getting out of 14 Wisdom.
_metz_ 06-18-07, 12:30 AM	Guys, lets not forget the Deepwarden Dwarf Barbarian. 2 levels of Deepwarden Dwarf gets you Con instead of Dex for AC - coupled with Uncanny Dodge, this is really useful. <In theory your Armour class goes up when you rage too, compensating for the loss, though this is restricted by your armour> You can do these stats with a Dwarf: Str: 18 Dex: 8 Con: 17 Int: 12 Wis: 8 Cha: 6 The Int of 12 is for the skill points needed for deepwarden dwarf, but you could take a ranger level and instead bump your wisdom, or whatever. You can also take a dip into exotic weapon master for Uncanny blow with the dwarven waraxe then as well. Alternatively you can drop the int to 8, con to 16 and go wisdom 14 and take pious templar levels, you just don't get the uncanny blow and have to pick a deity like Clandeggin ISlver Beardd - go NG and take the Battle Axe as your weapon. I do so wish you could do a Pious Templar Deepwarden Barbarian EWM of Gendwar. Stupid not being allowed to be a neutral worshipper...
Dr.Cornelius 06-18-07, 02:22 AM	Deepwarden Dwarf has cool flavor but is a bit overrated. First off, it takes around 6-7 levels to meet the skill prereqs, meaning that Con bonus to AC kicks in around 8th level. Second, you have to burn a useless feat on Endurance. Instead of chasing a bunch of skills and wasting a feat, you are just as well off going straight to a decent defensive feat like Improved Buckler Defense, Close Quarters Fighting, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative or Improved Toughness. The only way I see Deepwarden Dwarf paying off is with a dedicated build aiming for max AC. But Barbarians are limited to medium and light armor, so it really does not work out.
Dr.Cornelius 06-18-07, 02:25 AM	Buying a stat up to 18 (or 20 with racial adjustment) is usually not optimal. One exception is the Grey Elf wizard looking to maximize spell DCs. Also stay away from a negative Wisdom modifier - Will saves are the Barbarian's Achilles heel. Remember the saying A failed Reflex save might get you killed, but a failed Will save might get the whole party killed. Fortunately you have two options: Wis 14 and 1-4 levels of Cleric or Wis 8 and Channeled Rage. Channeled Rage (feat, Races of Destiny p.150, must be half-orc) is the most straightforward - burn a Rage to add your strength modifier to a Will save. If you have 18 Strength and are raging the total is +8. Wisdom 14 and a few levels of Cleric is also a decent choice. You lose 1 BAB and a few HP but gain important benefits: 1. +4 Will save over four levels, versus +1 Will save from four levels of Barbarian or Fighter. Add in the +2 Wisdom modifier and the total is +6. 2. Access to a few 1st and 2nd level spells. It may not look like much, but having an extra Cure spell around can be a lifesaver. Magic Weapon, Protection from Evil, Obscuring Mist and Lesser Vigor are decent 1st level spells. Take 3-4 levels and you can get spontaneous Cure Moderate as well as buff spells and utility spells like Find Traps, Iron Silence and Lesser Restoration. 3. Access to Cleric scrolls. It is always good to have a second character in the party who can pull out a Restoration or Invisibility Purge in a pinch. 4. And most importantly access to two Cleric Domains. Travel, Celerity, Luck, Strength and Competition all have strong domain abilities and decent 1st-2nd level spells. Travel Domain grants Freedom of Movement from magical effects. Very useful at any level. Longstrider (+10 move speed, 1 hour/level) the 1st level spell. Celerity Domain grants +10ft movement, so the Barbarian in light armor would move 50ft. Luck Domain grants a re-roll once per day - this can be a life saver. Strength Domain has feat of strength 1/day and Enlarge Person spell. Competition Domain gains +1 on oposed checks and Zeal spell at 2nd level. War Domain gains Weapon Focus (Deity's favored weapon) and Magic Weapon spell. Deitys with strong Domains: Kord: War, Strength, Competition Kelanen: War, Travel (note: can only use swords) Fharlanghan: Celerity, Luck, Travel St.Cuthbert: Strength, Destruction Zuoken: Celerity, Strength, War (Unarmed strike) Here are a few progressions that work well, especially if you go with a Deity with War Domain to pick up Weapon Focus. Barbarian 1/ Cleric 4/Fighter 2/Exotic Weapon Master X Barbarian 1/Cleric 4/Fighter 1/Occult Slayer X Barbarian 1/Cleric 4/Fighter 1/Pious Templar X 5. Do not take more than one or at most two levels of Barbarian. The fighter feats are much stronger. 6. By all means take Extra Rage at 1st level. It is by far the strongest Barbarian feat. Good Luck!
rutrow424 06-18-07, 12:33 PM	Deepwarden Dwarf has cool flavor but is a bit overrated. First off, it takes around 6-7 levels to meet the skill prereqs, meaning that Con bonus to AC kicks in around 8th level. Second, you have to burn a useless feat on Endurance. Instead of chasing a bunch of skills and wasting a feat, you are just as well off going straight to a decent defensive feat like Improved Buckler Defense, Close Quarters Fighting, Improved Grapple, Improved Initiative or Improved Toughness. The only way I see Deepwarden Dwarf paying off is with a dedicated build aiming for max AC. But Barbarians are limited to medium and light armor, so it really does not work out. It may not be optimal, but a deepwarden dip for a barbarian I think can eventually work. The build would get the Con AC bonus @ 7th level, or at 8th level if EWM was in the picture also. Since you need skill points to qualify for deepwarden, you could take Barb2/Rang3 to get Endurance for free (I would not normally take Endurance as a feat, but IME it is not useless. just specialized). Or take B2/R1/F2 to get the bonus feats so Endurance is less of a "waste." The factor that becomes the issue is how survivable are you until DW kicks in, especially if you dump DEX, which would make the most sense. As a barbarian, your AC is likely to be bad anyway, so an extra 2-3 lower may not make much difference if you are keeping your damage up. Waiting for the DW kick on my ranger build was excrutiating, with a lot of damage soaking, with little offensive punch (TWF w/ 15-16 STR). The PA 2H fighting barbarian may solve that. My pet build for a possible GH ruins PC is this: B2/R3/DW2/BW1/WS2/BW2-5/WS3 S:18 D:8 C:16 I:10 W:12 CH:6 Feats: PA, Extra Rage, Imp Toughness, Instant Rage (when immune to crits/sneak @ 9th level) I think the build offsets the loss of armor and equip that a BW suffers from, to the point where at level 10+ your AC improves when you rage (esp w/ an Amulet of Health). It would be fun to try.
Dr.Cornelius 06-18-07, 01:22 PM	OK - Deepwarden AC bonus makes more sense when combined with Bear Warrior. By the way, what PrC is "WS"? On the other hand, most 2H wielding power attacking Barbarians do just fine without much AC. IMHO the Barbarbarian does not have a problem taking HO punishment but the important threats are failed Will saves and Grapplemonsters. I think it makes more sense to cover these weaknesses with Close Quarters Fighting (or Bear Warrior) and Channeled Rage (or other Will save boost - possibly Instant Rage).
rutrow424 06-18-07, 02:08 PM	OK - Deepwarden AC bonus makes more sense when combined with Bear Warrior. By the way, what PrC is "WS"? Warshaper On the other hand, most 2H wielding power attacking Barbarians do just fine without much AC. IMHO the Barbarbarian does not have a problem taking HO punishment but the important threats are failed Will saves and Grapplemonsters. I think it makes more sense to cover these weaknesses with Close Quarters Fighting (or Bear Warrior) and Channeled Rage (or other Will save boost - possibly Instant Rage). I agree - just defending DW as a viable option for specific barbarian builds.
kaikai 06-20-07, 08:35 PM	wow some awesome advice guys! thank you so much :D quick question. can fighter bonus feats be used for taking feats like reckless rage and channeled rage? ive been under the impression that they couldent up untill now.. edit: sorry read up on it, yeah can't do that, darn. well i definatly want reckless rage, extra rage and channeled rage.. but i want to be a half orc, i plan to roleplay as well as kill, gah. hard choices. thanks again for telling me about channeled rage, thats so awesome.
Dr.Cornelius 06-20-07, 11:54 PM	Reckless Rage is not that great of a feat. Definitely take Extra Rage, Power Attack and Channeled Rage first. Improved Initiative, Close Quarters Fighting and Imp. Bull Rush+Shock Trooper are all superior as well.
JamesMaissen 06-21-07, 12:09 AM	which would you choose? Half Orc Will saves Strength 18 (+4) Dexterity 14 (+2) Constitution 14 (+2) Intelligence 6 (-2) Wisdom 14 (+2) Charisma 6 (-2) is it worth being a half orc, or is going human for that extra feat a better choice? Barbarians attract will saves. Raging is like raising your hand and volunteering for them. Shore up your Wisdom, Mutt into WILL favored classes and even consider items/feats to boost it. May I suggest a few levels of Holy Liberator for you? -James
afbeer 06-21-07, 07:28 AM	5. Do not take more than one or at most two levels of Barbarian. The fighter feats are much stronger. 6. By all means take Extra Rage at 1st level. It is by far the strongest Barbarian feat. Good Luck! Take multiple levels of Barbarian until you can Rage 3x/day through class features. Extra Rage is overvalued. Take early and retrain it later if you really like to have it. Shore up your Will save with Greater Rage (11th lvl Barbarian) you can also take Combat Focus (WIS prereq.) or Instantaneous Rage. Yours afbeer
_metz_ 06-21-07, 07:38 AM	Take multiple levels of Barbarian until you can Rage 3x/day through class features. Extra Rage is overvalued. Take early and retrain it later if you really like to have it. Shore up your Will save with Greater Rage (11th lvl Barbarian) you can also take Combat Focus (WIS prereq.) or Instantaneous Rage. Yours afbeer Extra rage is valued correctly. Its a feat that gives you the benefit of several levels in a class. take levels of fighter and you already catch up and go ahead feat wise. Work it out.
Banor 06-21-07, 07:57 AM	Uncanny dodge/imp uncanny dodge and DR1/- arent worth 5 feats sorry. Extra Rage is totally worth it. What is one feat to a fighter ? Also greater rage is also a sub par choice, pick Reckless rage if you want this bonus STR and CON that much.
afbeer 06-21-07, 10:08 AM	Uncanny dodge/imp uncanny dodge and DR1/- arent worth 5 feats sorry. Extra Rage is totally worth it. What is one feat to a fighter ?. It is Uncanny dodge; imp uncanny dodge; DR2/-; 2 skill points/lvl; trapsense +3 and virtual additional feat Improved toughness (d12 vs. d10) You can always dip for 2 lvls of fighter the other way around. seems that extra rage on a fighter is more flexible than a 3x rage/day barbarian. nice dice
Timlagor 06-21-07, 05:13 PM	DR2/- matters not at all at higher levels. 2 skill points is nice rather thangreat. Trapsense is a non-issue. The HP are nice but you could just take the Feat and still have lots of extra feats left over ..you probably wouldn't take the feat though. Barb1+Extra Rage is hugely good.
JamesMaissen 06-25-07, 12:10 PM	Barb1+Extra Rage is hugely good. Uncanny Dodge is a worthwhile ability even when you don't rely upon DEX for AC. It lowers a rogue's ability to sneak attack you significantly. I would recommend the 2nd level of Barbarian always be fully considered for a build taking a barb level, as it's at least on par with a bonus feat or the like. -James
Dr.Cornelius 06-25-07, 01:33 PM	Rogues sneak attacking player characters does not seem to come up very often. Certainly not as often as Grapplemonsters. And sneak is just damage, but grapple is incapacitating. INHO Close Quarters Fighting is a better defensive feat than Uncanny Dodge. Even Iron Will or Channeled Rage for Half Orcs is likely to get more use. Bottom Line: one level of Barbarian with Extra Rage then move on to Fighter or another class.
kaikai 06-25-07, 03:47 PM	chances are i may take a few levels in barbarian, and the rest perhaps fighter, i really like the idea of the harpoon exotic weapon, make a javalin throwing barbarian untill i go fighter, and get some spec in that particular weapon.
Dr.Cornelius 06-25-07, 03:54 PM	Why do you want to take more than one level of Barbarian? I would get to the Fighter bonus feats asap since Harpoon is feat intensive. You should think about Brutal Throw by the way.
kaikai 06-25-07, 04:49 PM	i was interested in getting to 5th (slowly) to make sure i cant be flanked.. but thinking about it, and brutal throw (thanks for that by the way!) i shouldent get into a position where i would be flanked.. hows this? Strength 20 (+5) Dexterity 14 (+2) Constitution 14 (+2) Intelligence 6 (-2) Wisdom 8 (-1) Charisma 6 (-2) 1,barb 1, rage, fast move, *extra rage 2,ftr 1, exotic weapon (harpoon) 3,ftr 2, brutal throw & *channeled rage 4,ftr 3, 5,ftr 4, point blank shot 6,ftr 5, *2nd extra rage 7,ftr 6, quick draw 8,ftr 7, rapid shot 9,ftr 8, *weapon focus 10,ftr 9, 11,ftr 10, weapon spec 12,ftr 11, *greater weap focus 13,ftr 12, greater weap spec 14,ftr 13, 15,ftr 14, far shot & *reckless rage 16,ftr 15, *= 1st, 3rd ect level extra feats not granted by class.
Dr.Cornelius 06-26-07, 05:00 AM	The Harpoon Fighter is a neat concept. Here are a few suggestions that might make it better: 1) Aim to qualify for Exotic Weapon Master (CWar p.30) at 7th level. All you need to do is add Weapon Focus(Harpoon) at 6th level. 2) Move the second Extra Rage back to 9th level - you really only need the additional Rages to fuel Channeled Rage anyway. 3) Fit in Improved Initiative if you can - that way you will have a better chance to get in a throw before the BBEG closes to melee range.
kaikai 06-26-07, 02:26 PM	i hadent considered the exotic weapon master.. to be honist, i don't see it as a particulary powerfull presteige class. what makes you think it would be effective for my build? close quarter ranged combat, ranged disarm and perhaps show off, as feats? the extra rage at 6th level is so i can rage in combat and have some to spare for will saves, but thats an interesting idea.. :D and improved initiative sounds like a very good idea.