Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kaikai 06-15-07, 02:44 PM	reading up on the rules i was attracted to the sunder feats, ive only found two handy, sunder and imp sunder, but i was wondering what other feats may help me? would the barbarians destructive rage feat help in sundering someones armor or other equipment? whats the best choice, half orc or human, feats or raw strength? any other good tid bits of advice, or how would YOU make a barbarian sunderer class? thanks guys
King Kashue 06-15-07, 02:55 PM	First of all, there is no "Sunder" feat. There hasn't been one since 3.0. Are you using the 3.5 books? As for the main question: My tip would be "don't make a sunderer in Living Greyhawk". If you sunder items, you don't get the gold for those items. If you sunder items, you don't get the AR access to those items. And more importantly, neither do your party members. Needless to say, this is likely to make them less than happy. As a result you will likely find yourself with very few people who will be willing to sit down at a table with you. Improved Sunder is a prereq to certain other feats (Combat Brute from Complete Warrior is the one that comes to mind), so if you get it through that, you'll be able to sunder in those rare occasions when it's absolutely necessary. However, if you build your character as a primary sunderer, you will either spend your LG career never using the tactic, or you will spend it with party members quite upset with you, assuming you can get people to play with you.
kaikai 06-15-07, 03:06 PM	chances are yes i was reading my 3.0 book by accident, whoops but since its all module based, and you don't get the items anyway in the rpga, unless you pay for them in the downtime between adventures, and IF you pay to get them, if anouther player has enougth money, two or more players could get the same item due to the access system, i wouldent have thought it would have mattered if i sunder an item or two, does it really make a difference? ive never seen a module where we get given anything but access to items and a cash reward thats spesfic to the ACL of the adventure. are there any that arent like that?
Franco Un-American 06-15-07, 04:18 PM	Yes, it does matter. If you sunder an item, then you don't get acces to it, meaning no one at the table can buy it. Furthermore, you don't get the gold that that item would have given you, as you can't sell it. This means that, if you sunder a lot, you'll often end up under cap for gold. In other words, sundering is a surefire way to get the rest of your party to hate you.
King Kashue 06-15-07, 04:18 PM	chances are yes i was reading my 3.0 book by accident, whoops but since its all module based, and you don't get the items anyway in the rpga, unless you pay for them in the downtime between adventures, and IF you pay to get them, if anouther player has enougth money, two or more players could get the same item due to the access system, i wouldent have thought it would have mattered if i sunder an item or two, does it really make a difference? Absolutely. The gold you get in the module and the item access at the end are predicated on your party finding and selling the item. If you sunder the badguy's sword, you don't get to sell it (and thus the party misses out on gold) and no one gets access to it.
kaikai 06-15-07, 04:27 PM	seems alittle silly that if the party has enougth gold, they can buy a copy of that sword each, but if a sunderer whacks it, no one gets it at all. O.o doesnt seem consistant. still i can sunder other things, just not the big baddie of the module. anyway, whats the best method to make a sunderer for 3.5? that fits with the rpga rule conventions?
King Kashue 06-15-07, 04:35 PM	seems alittle silly that if the party has enougth gold, they can buy a copy of that sword each, but if a sunderer whacks it, no one gets it at all. O.o doesnt seem consistant. still i can sunder other things, just not the big baddie of the module. No, you really can't...It applies to everything... Every item you recover in the module goes towards your gold in the module. If you sunder it, you don't get it. That applies to everything, from the non-masterwork shortsword the goblin is carrying to the +2 Vorpal sword at APL 14. I'm being entirely serious in saying that people will stop playing with you if you're a primary sunderer.
kaikai 06-16-07, 06:29 AM	fair enougth, i appreciate the advice. but i still would like some good info on what makes a successfull sunderer charicter, if you don't wanna tell me, thats cool, no probs :) i won't take it personaly. but if someone can answer my question, i'd like to know the info. even if i only use it on hill giant clubs and constructs, or have to say 'can krunk break that?' everytime my dumb barbarian wants to fight someone. ive had enougth rpga games where someone has made the comment 'if only we could break that' in regards to something, that the gamers i consistantly play with in my local rpga games, wouldent mind me being a sunderer, especialy since we recently had an allmost full TPK and we are all rerolling charicters.
Potato Weasel 06-16-07, 08:23 AM	Well, what were they wanting to break? And, if its weapon wise, it's a lot easier and more rewarding to build a disarmer. This is advice from a guy who went through a module recently with another guy who had a barbarian with sundering cleave, he ended up destroying one weapon, and killing one person. Because we were the ones actually doing usefull things while he was trying to get through hardness and hp on two handed weapons. Granted he didnt have adamantine yet, but he was trying to chew through treasure when it would have been a -lot- easier to just disarm them, or whack them until they were dead. I wont be adventuring with that guy anymore, even if it means walking out of a convention table. Sundering isn't just taking away gold, it's generally a poor choice.
Timlagor 06-16-07, 11:09 AM	1) You can't sunder armour 2) High Strength, full bab, PA, Adamantine slashing weapon, Barb1+Extra Rage, Improved Sunder; Cmbat Brute. that's about it.
_metz_ 06-16-07, 11:15 AM	fair enougth, i appreciate the advice. but i still would like some good info on what makes a successfull sunderer charicter, if you don't wanna tell me, thats cool, no probs :) i won't take it personaly. but if someone can answer my question, i'd like to know the info. even if i only use it on hill giant clubs and constructs, or have to say 'can krunk break that?' everytime my dumb barbarian wants to fight someone. ive had enougth rpga games where someone has made the comment 'if only we could break that' in regards to something, that the gamers i consistantly play with in my local rpga games, wouldent mind me being a sunderer, especialy since we recently had an allmost full TPK and we are all rerolling charicters. Simple, lots of strength. Adamantite weapon, Reckless Rage, Improved Sunder, Power Attack Combat Brute Full BAB. Really simple. Don't do it. Really Really Really don't do it. Also I would like to point out in some encounters the bad guy is easier armed (Vampires?) Most importantly, EVERYTHING that you find on a person is party treasure. EVERYTHING you break will ACTUALLY make a serious dent in said treasure and access. Ask a local DM to run you through how gold and overcap in modules work. It won't work, people will get angry with you, and you are often better off just smashing the bad guy anyways.
UMiskatonic 06-16-07, 12:35 PM	If you absolutely have to do this, then I'd suggest rethinking yourself as a power attacker. Swing for the fences, every time. It will turn out that you also sunder well, and that's occasionally useful when beating down doors, walls of ice, freeing prisioners from chains, etc. But it's a horrible primary tactic, as noted above. Finally, if you use an exotic weapon, there's an exotic sunder type of move available to exotic weapon masters.
Sieylianna 06-16-07, 12:35 PM	ive had enougth rpga games where someone has made the comment 'if only we could break that' in regards to something, that the gamers i consistantly play with in my local rpga games, wouldent mind me being a sunderer, especialy since we recently had an allmost full TPK and we are all rerolling charicters. The problem you run into is that in many modules, the weapon you sunder may be one half or more of the total party GP for the module. The number of modules where sundering a weapon is the best tactic is miniscule. You're going to build a PC who is giving up capability for the normal situation for one which you may never encounter. Possibly the problem is not that you need a sunderer, but your local group doesn't have effective PCs. And if you ever play at a con or gameday with different people, you may find that your PC has "accidentally" died. Let's face it, the BDF is out in front and the rest of the party may allow him to die through lack of support. Ed
kaikai 06-16-07, 02:08 PM	bugger, thats abit of a downer. oh well, thanks for the advice guys :)
King Kashue 06-16-07, 02:11 PM	If you absolutely have to do this, then I'd suggest rethinking yourself as a power attacker. Swing for the fences, every time. It will turn out that you also sunder well Power attack is statistically horrible for sundering. It's an opposed attack roll. You're not trying to hit a static AC, you're opposing the Evil BDF's attack roll, and his to hit is usually about the same as yours. Intentionally lowering your to hit by 10 points = losing most of the time.
ithardin 06-16-07, 06:58 PM	More power to you on building the PC you want to play, but here is my two copper: The last sundering cleave PC I tabled with cost us a PC death and the death of a Celestial Ranger companion animal because he was too busy trying to sunder (and unsuccessfully at that) a BBEG's weapon instead of killing him. He was asked to "try hitting the GUY instead of his weapon" at least three times, but to no avail. Consequently his name is mud and most of us have no desire to EVER sit at another table with his PC. Ian
UMiskatonic 06-17-07, 03:46 PM	Power attack is statistically horrible for sundering. It's an opposed attack roll. You're not trying to hit a static AC, you're opposing the Evil BDF's attack roll, and his to hit is usually about the same as yours. Intentionally lowering your to hit by 10 points = losing most of the time. Sorry, that's not at all what I meant. Instead of being "Mr. Sunder", I'm suggesting becoming "Mr. Big Power Attack". Then, resort to the non-power attack sunder if and when the situation calls for it.
Iswald 06-19-07, 09:56 AM	Use an exotic weapon, such as a bastard sword, take one level of exotic weapon master for exotic sunder. Add the sunder enhancement to your weapon (+1 enhancement, MIC). Combined, this would add 2d6 to your sunder attempts. I also, recommend not sundering treasure. But, you'll find people talking about sundering spell component pouches and holy symbols now and then. You don't really need any tricks to break fragile items such as these.