Bard - Caster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard - Caster [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GawainBS
06-08-07, 04:45 PM Hello

I'm looking for help to get some miles out of my bard. For the moment, I have an Elf bard with STR 10, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 14. She's going to fill in our arcane magic gap and be our buffer. What's the best way to go about this?

Thanks in advance!
KarmaInferno
06-08-07, 06:13 PM Probably the best route if you want to focus on casting is to build towards the Sublime Chord prestige class from Complete Arcane.

You need some pretty stiff skill rank requirements but Bards should be able to handle that without too much problem.

Earliest you can get into it is at 11th level due to needing a couple of skills at rank 13. But you end up getting access to your 5th and 6th level Bard spells two to three levels earlier than a single class bard would, plus access to wizard/sorcerer spells of 4th level and higher - by 15th level you'll have 7th level Wiz/Sor spells on tap.

Alternately take some druid levels and build towards either Fochlucan Lyrist or Arcane Heirophant. The latter will need Evasion from somewhere, though.

-karma
GawainBS
06-08-07, 06:22 PM Thanks, this is great advice. But can't 13 skill ranks be achieved by lvl 10?
KarmaInferno
06-08-07, 06:29 PM Yes, which means you take Sublime Chord as your 11th level.

You determine how many skill points you get AFTER you pick what class you are taking for the level. So you don't fulfill the rank requirements until you take that 10th level of bard and put the skill points into the needed skills.

-karma
Vanadium
06-08-07, 06:43 PM Sublime Chord's the way to go if you want to cast spells. Now, there are steep requirements to get in. That's not a huge problem with 14 intelligence, though. The spell requirement only needs 7 bard levels, if I recall correctly, so that means you can probably dip a level or two. Marshal is pretty good for this, either picking up Motivate Charisma (and save some points in various charisma skills, as this boosts aid another) or Motivate Dexterity (which improves initiative for everyone) as a minor aura.

What did you take for a first level feat? Some goodies are Melodic Casting (Complete Mage, no need to waste points on Concentration) or Improved Initiative (faster boosts). Even Extra Music works, and you can retrain it away once you have more music per day naturally. If you boost Use Magic Device, you can benefit greatly from crafting things, so keep that in mind.

Don't go Fochluchan Lyrist or Arcane Heirophant, though, at least not starting out a Living Campaign. Heck, I'd never play a theurgic caster in a Living Campaign period, but that's just me.
KarmaInferno
06-09-07, 12:03 AM I went the bass ackwards stupid way into the class - a level of bard, then Warmage for most of the build before grabbing Sublime Chord. Oy what a pain that was juggling skill ranks.

If I had to do it over again I'd go straight bard for the needed casting, but originally I wanted a blaster.

<shrug>

-karma
CdrcJsn
06-09-07, 12:49 AM Hello

I'm looking for help to get some miles out of my bard. For the moment, I have an Elf bard with STR 10, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 14. She's going to fill in our arcane magic gap and be our buffer. What's the best way to go about this?

Thanks in advance!

The only thing you'll lack as a bard taking on the full time role of arcane caster is the number of spells slots per day.

Take either Lyric Spellcasting + Extra Music (allows you to substitute bard songs for extra spell slots) or take Arcane Preparation and CWI to make pearls of power and be able to use them. If you think you're gonna get access to those momento magica things, then you can skip the arcane prep, but I have yet to see those things around so they're probably still quite rare.

You'll also want two key spells that will boost your bardic utility. Both are open access spells.
1) Inspirational Boost. 1st level. Spell Compendium. Adds +1 to your inspire courage. A +2 hit/dmg to all allies is great at 2nd level.
2) Harmonize. 2nd level. Races of Stone. Allows you to start bard songs as a move action. lasts a minute per level. Not really as needed until you hit 9th level and get Inspire Greatness, but still useful if you can prep for an encounter. Otherwise, you can do the following:
round 1 - cast Harmonize, start inspire greateness
round 2 - cast Haste or other spell, start inspire courage
GawainBS
06-09-07, 05:40 AM Yes, which means you take Sublime Chord as your 11th level.

You determine how many skill points you get AFTER you pick what class you are taking for the level. So you don't fulfill the rank requirements until you take that 10th level of bard and put the skill points into the needed skills.

-karma

I misunderstood you. My apologies. Thanks for all the great advice.

BTW, I took Improved Initiative at lvl 1. The Marshal idea sounds great, but it would impose XP penalties.
GawainBS
06-09-07, 05:43 AM Thanks for the advice. I took Improved Initiative at first level.
Several people suggested a dip in Marshall, but wouldn't that incur XP penalties?
CdrcJsn
06-10-07, 09:06 PM Thanks for the advice. I took Improved Initiative at first level.
Several people suggested a dip in Marshall, but wouldn't that incur XP penalties?

Not for humans, gnomes and half elves.
cetiken
06-10-07, 11:13 PM Not for humans, gnomes and half elves.

Too bad he's an elf. No helping poor decision making at this point though unless he wants to roll the reincarnate dice.

(As a fair note, I'm biased against elves.)
Mommy was an Orc
06-10-07, 11:42 PM Too bad he's an elf. No helping poor decision making at this point though unless he wants to roll the reincarnate dice.

(As a fair note, I'm biased against elves.)

There's nothing that horrible about being an elf bard with those stats. They're not super optimal, but then again, Bards really don't need a phenomenally high charisma. Nor do Bards need a level of Marshal to be a strong class.

I'd go Bard 10/Sublime Chord 5 and keep it simple. Bard 15 isn't bad either.
Hariman
06-11-07, 12:53 AM There's nothing that horrible about being an elf bard with those stats. They're not super optimal, but then again, Bards really don't need a phenomenally high charisma. Nor do Bards need a level of Marshal to be a strong class.

I'd go Bard 10/Sublime Chord 5 and keep it simple. Bard 15 isn't bad either.

I'll second that. Bard 15 and Bard10/SubChord5 are great ways to go. Heck, was in a mod with a great half orc bard named Beatbox. Very fun character and very useful for the party.

I don't think a Marshal dip is needed, but that's up to you.
GawainBS
06-11-07, 02:53 AM Too bad he's an elf. No helping poor decision making at this point though unless he wants to roll the reincarnate dice.

(As a fair note, I'm biased against elves.)

It's not bad desicion making, it's RP. :) I believe there's a big greyzone between über-optimizing and deliberatly gimping to be more "RP-like." (I'm an adherent of the Stormwindfallacy, that's why there are quotes.)
cetiken
06-11-07, 11:15 AM To clarify just a bit, I don't like elves for RP reasons.

I could care less about Optimizing*. It just seems to me that elves are dull.

*This isn't entierly true, I'm a shameless min-maxer and normally pick two things for my characters to do well. As an example my bard diplomosizes people and then attempts to mind control opponents in combat (or just buff people up if thats not gona work). Given that I won't play an elf even if it is strictly speaking the optimal choice.
.
Timlagor
06-11-07, 11:18 AM Sometimes an RP concept does require sub-optimal choices. Surely there are some half-orc Wizards in the world for instance.
GawainBS
06-11-07, 11:24 AM Oh, ok, no offense intended.:-) I happen to like them, but I can understand people not liking them. :-)
Cardinal Teplin
06-14-07, 11:01 AM It's not bad desicion making, it's RP. :) I believe there's a big greyzone between über-optimizing and deliberatly gimping to be more "RP-like." (I'm an adherent of the Stormwindfallacy, that's why there are quotes.)

I tend to start off from a sub-optimal position, and then optimise from there. Hence my wildshape druid*, my familiar-buffing wizard, and my high charisma barbarian. (*yes druids are hardly sub-optimal now, but they were in 3rd ed when I started.)

It's more about uniqueness than roleplaying - I hate coming to a party and someone else having the same character as me. An elf bard works fine if you like elves, and getting bored with a character is far more of a threat to his existance than not being optimised.

As for Mr Stormwind, while his opinions make sense, his logical fallacy doesn't really work. He ignores the possbility or two factors being strongly or weakly correlated, and assumes they must either be necessarily related or necessarily independent. It's no more true to say that two things must be independent than to say they must be related.
Wraith235
06-18-07, 01:17 PM why not Bard ... then Virtuoso .... then Sublime Chord
Mattastrophic
06-18-07, 01:58 PM What the Stormwind Fallacy primarily addresses, as least from how I see it, are these statements:

-"I gimped my character, so I'm a better roleplayer than you."
-"You powergamed your character, so you're a worse roleplayer than me."

This rings true in my ears, as I recall several players with their bards who thought they were the RP-shiznit because they took Negotiator.

Gimping your character for RP, that's fine. Thinking that makes you a better roleplayer than the rest of us, that's not fine.

-Matt
GawainBS
06-18-07, 02:58 PM What the Stormwind Fallacy primarily addresses, as least from how I see it, are these statements:

-"I gimped my character, so I'm a better roleplayer than you."
-"You powergamed your character, so you're a worse roleplayer than me."

This rings true in my ears, as I recall several players with their bards who thought they were the RP-shiznit because they took Negotiator.

Gimping your character for RP, that's fine. Thinking that makes you a better roleplayer than the rest of us, that's not fine.

-Matt

That's exactly what I was trying to say. I just *hate* it when being called a powergamer because my character took a useful feat/PrC. To certain extent, "Powergaming" *is* roleplaying, since every adventurer wants to be as suited to the task as possible.

/end rant.

What's point of taking Virtuoso first?:) Just curious.
Mattastrophic
06-18-07, 03:09 PM I can't stand it, either, so I know how you feel. Just remember that optimization and roleplaying are completely separate from each other and you'll be fine. "Negotiator does NOT equal Roleplaying!" is a good mantra.

Virtuoso is the only PrC that both grants full spellcasting, albeit once you get through L1, as well as 1/1 bardic music progression.

Thus, a build like Bard9/Virtuoso1/SubChord2/Virtuoso3 is a pretty sweet deal, as it grants 14 bardsongs with full SubChord casting.

-Matt
GawainBS
06-18-07, 03:12 PM Ah, I missed that part about the songs.:)
Mattastrophic
06-18-07, 03:42 PM Oh, and for the cherry on top... she worships Hanali Celanil... right? right?

-Matt's kinda biased on that one.
GawainBS
06-18-07, 04:53 PM It would be good RP'ing, yes.:-p Not so good as taking Alertness with a Fighter, though, since "They won't catch Regdar off guard, no siree!".

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GawainBS 06-08-07, 04:45 PM	Hello I'm looking for help to get some miles out of my bard. For the moment, I have an Elf bard with STR 10, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 14. She's going to fill in our arcane magic gap and be our buffer. What's the best way to go about this? Thanks in advance!
KarmaInferno 06-08-07, 06:13 PM	Probably the best route if you want to focus on casting is to build towards the Sublime Chord prestige class from Complete Arcane. You need some pretty stiff skill rank requirements but Bards should be able to handle that without too much problem. Earliest you can get into it is at 11th level due to needing a couple of skills at rank 13. But you end up getting access to your 5th and 6th level Bard spells two to three levels earlier than a single class bard would, plus access to wizard/sorcerer spells of 4th level and higher - by 15th level you'll have 7th level Wiz/Sor spells on tap. Alternately take some druid levels and build towards either Fochlucan Lyrist or Arcane Heirophant. The latter will need Evasion from somewhere, though. -karma
GawainBS 06-08-07, 06:22 PM	Thanks, this is great advice. But can't 13 skill ranks be achieved by lvl 10?
KarmaInferno 06-08-07, 06:29 PM	Yes, which means you take Sublime Chord as your 11th level. You determine how many skill points you get AFTER you pick what class you are taking for the level. So you don't fulfill the rank requirements until you take that 10th level of bard and put the skill points into the needed skills. -karma
Vanadium 06-08-07, 06:43 PM	Sublime Chord's the way to go if you want to cast spells. Now, there are steep requirements to get in. That's not a huge problem with 14 intelligence, though. The spell requirement only needs 7 bard levels, if I recall correctly, so that means you can probably dip a level or two. Marshal is pretty good for this, either picking up Motivate Charisma (and save some points in various charisma skills, as this boosts aid another) or Motivate Dexterity (which improves initiative for everyone) as a minor aura. What did you take for a first level feat? Some goodies are Melodic Casting (Complete Mage, no need to waste points on Concentration) or Improved Initiative (faster boosts). Even Extra Music works, and you can retrain it away once you have more music per day naturally. If you boost Use Magic Device, you can benefit greatly from crafting things, so keep that in mind. Don't go Fochluchan Lyrist or Arcane Heirophant, though, at least not starting out a Living Campaign. Heck, I'd never play a theurgic caster in a Living Campaign period, but that's just me.
KarmaInferno 06-09-07, 12:03 AM	I went the bass ackwards stupid way into the class - a level of bard, then Warmage for most of the build before grabbing Sublime Chord. Oy what a pain that was juggling skill ranks. If I had to do it over again I'd go straight bard for the needed casting, but originally I wanted a blaster. <shrug> -karma
CdrcJsn 06-09-07, 12:49 AM	Hello I'm looking for help to get some miles out of my bard. For the moment, I have an Elf bard with STR 10, DEX 16, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 14. She's going to fill in our arcane magic gap and be our buffer. What's the best way to go about this? Thanks in advance! The only thing you'll lack as a bard taking on the full time role of arcane caster is the number of spells slots per day. Take either Lyric Spellcasting + Extra Music (allows you to substitute bard songs for extra spell slots) or take Arcane Preparation and CWI to make pearls of power and be able to use them. If you think you're gonna get access to those momento magica things, then you can skip the arcane prep, but I have yet to see those things around so they're probably still quite rare. You'll also want two key spells that will boost your bardic utility. Both are open access spells. 1) Inspirational Boost. 1st level. Spell Compendium. Adds +1 to your inspire courage. A +2 hit/dmg to all allies is great at 2nd level. 2) Harmonize. 2nd level. Races of Stone. Allows you to start bard songs as a move action. lasts a minute per level. Not really as needed until you hit 9th level and get Inspire Greatness, but still useful if you can prep for an encounter. Otherwise, you can do the following: round 1 - cast Harmonize, start inspire greateness round 2 - cast Haste or other spell, start inspire courage
GawainBS 06-09-07, 05:40 AM	Yes, which means you take Sublime Chord as your 11th level. You determine how many skill points you get AFTER you pick what class you are taking for the level. So you don't fulfill the rank requirements until you take that 10th level of bard and put the skill points into the needed skills. -karma I misunderstood you. My apologies. Thanks for all the great advice. BTW, I took Improved Initiative at lvl 1. The Marshal idea sounds great, but it would impose XP penalties.
GawainBS 06-09-07, 05:43 AM	Thanks for the advice. I took Improved Initiative at first level. Several people suggested a dip in Marshall, but wouldn't that incur XP penalties?
CdrcJsn 06-10-07, 09:06 PM	Thanks for the advice. I took Improved Initiative at first level. Several people suggested a dip in Marshall, but wouldn't that incur XP penalties? Not for humans, gnomes and half elves.
cetiken 06-10-07, 11:13 PM	Not for humans, gnomes and half elves. Too bad he's an elf. No helping poor decision making at this point though unless he wants to roll the reincarnate dice. (As a fair note, I'm biased against elves.)
Mommy was an Orc 06-10-07, 11:42 PM	Too bad he's an elf. No helping poor decision making at this point though unless he wants to roll the reincarnate dice. (As a fair note, I'm biased against elves.) There's nothing that horrible about being an elf bard with those stats. They're not super optimal, but then again, Bards really don't need a phenomenally high charisma. Nor do Bards need a level of Marshal to be a strong class. I'd go Bard 10/Sublime Chord 5 and keep it simple. Bard 15 isn't bad either.
Hariman 06-11-07, 12:53 AM	There's nothing that horrible about being an elf bard with those stats. They're not super optimal, but then again, Bards really don't need a phenomenally high charisma. Nor do Bards need a level of Marshal to be a strong class. I'd go Bard 10/Sublime Chord 5 and keep it simple. Bard 15 isn't bad either. I'll second that. Bard 15 and Bard10/SubChord5 are great ways to go. Heck, was in a mod with a great half orc bard named Beatbox. Very fun character and very useful for the party. I don't think a Marshal dip is needed, but that's up to you.
GawainBS 06-11-07, 02:53 AM	Too bad he's an elf. No helping poor decision making at this point though unless he wants to roll the reincarnate dice. (As a fair note, I'm biased against elves.) It's not bad desicion making, it's RP. :) I believe there's a big greyzone between über-optimizing and deliberatly gimping to be more "RP-like." (I'm an adherent of the Stormwindfallacy, that's why there are quotes.)
cetiken 06-11-07, 11:15 AM	To clarify just a bit, I don't like elves for RP reasons. I could care less about Optimizing. It just seems to me that elves are dull. This isn't entierly true, I'm a shameless min-maxer and normally pick two things for my characters to do well. As an example my bard diplomosizes people and then attempts to mind control opponents in combat (or just buff people up if thats not gona work). Given that I won't play an elf even if it is strictly speaking the optimal choice. .
Timlagor 06-11-07, 11:18 AM	Sometimes an RP concept does require sub-optimal choices. Surely there are some half-orc Wizards in the world for instance.
GawainBS 06-11-07, 11:24 AM	Oh, ok, no offense intended.:-) I happen to like them, but I can understand people not liking them. :-)
Cardinal Teplin 06-14-07, 11:01 AM	It's not bad desicion making, it's RP. :) I believe there's a big greyzone between über-optimizing and deliberatly gimping to be more "RP-like." (I'm an adherent of the Stormwindfallacy, that's why there are quotes.) I tend to start off from a sub-optimal position, and then optimise from there. Hence my wildshape druid, my familiar-buffing wizard, and my high charisma barbarian. (yes druids are hardly sub-optimal now, but they were in 3rd ed when I started.) It's more about uniqueness than roleplaying - I hate coming to a party and someone else having the same character as me. An elf bard works fine if you like elves, and getting bored with a character is far more of a threat to his existance than not being optimised. As for Mr Stormwind, while his opinions make sense, his logical fallacy doesn't really work. He ignores the possbility or two factors being strongly or weakly correlated, and assumes they must either be necessarily related or necessarily independent. It's no more true to say that two things must be independent than to say they must be related.
Wraith235 06-18-07, 01:17 PM	why not Bard ... then Virtuoso .... then Sublime Chord
Mattastrophic 06-18-07, 01:58 PM	What the Stormwind Fallacy primarily addresses, as least from how I see it, are these statements: -"I gimped my character, so I'm a better roleplayer than you." -"You powergamed your character, so you're a worse roleplayer than me." This rings true in my ears, as I recall several players with their bards who thought they were the RP-shiznit because they took Negotiator. Gimping your character for RP, that's fine. Thinking that makes you a better roleplayer than the rest of us, that's not fine. -Matt
GawainBS 06-18-07, 02:58 PM	What the Stormwind Fallacy primarily addresses, as least from how I see it, are these statements: -"I gimped my character, so I'm a better roleplayer than you." -"You powergamed your character, so you're a worse roleplayer than me." This rings true in my ears, as I recall several players with their bards who thought they were the RP-shiznit because they took Negotiator. Gimping your character for RP, that's fine. Thinking that makes you a better roleplayer than the rest of us, that's not fine. -Matt That's exactly what I was trying to say. I just hate it when being called a powergamer because my character took a useful feat/PrC. To certain extent, "Powergaming" is roleplaying, since every adventurer wants to be as suited to the task as possible. /end rant. What's point of taking Virtuoso first?:) Just curious.
Mattastrophic 06-18-07, 03:09 PM	I can't stand it, either, so I know how you feel. Just remember that optimization and roleplaying are completely separate from each other and you'll be fine. "Negotiator does NOT equal Roleplaying!" is a good mantra. Virtuoso is the only PrC that both grants full spellcasting, albeit once you get through L1, as well as 1/1 bardic music progression. Thus, a build like Bard9/Virtuoso1/SubChord2/Virtuoso3 is a pretty sweet deal, as it grants 14 bardsongs with full SubChord casting. -Matt
GawainBS 06-18-07, 03:12 PM	Ah, I missed that part about the songs.:)
Mattastrophic 06-18-07, 03:42 PM	Oh, and for the cherry on top... she worships Hanali Celanil... right? right? -Matt's kinda biased on that one.
GawainBS 06-18-07, 04:53 PM	It would be good RP'ing, yes.:-p Not so good as taking Alertness with a Fighter, though, since "They won't catch Regdar off guard, no siree!".