Bard/Marshal cohort help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bard/Marshal cohort help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lomiat
09-19-07, 03:41 PM My wizard will hit 15th level before too long and will likely use a favor from a special mission to pick up a cohort, most likely a bard/marshal build that runs into Sublime Chord if I can get enough levels on the cohort.

The cohort will be an elf, and most likely a grey elf, though the subrace depends on the way my Triad interprets the favor.

Marshal 1/Bard 9/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 1

Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 18 (at 12th)

feats: 1 - ?, 3 - Extend Spell, 6 - Chain Spell, 9 - Lyric Metamagic (?), 12 - ?

default spells: 1 - Inspirational Boost, Grease; 2 - Harmonic Chorus, Harmonize, Silence; 3 - Haste, Sonorous Hum ; 4 - Dimension Door; 5 - Greater Dispel Magic

At this point, I'm open to opinions regarding the best use of the remaining two feat slots, spell selection, and whether or not it would be worthwhile to pick up the level of Sacred Exorcist for turn attempts (and, thus, either Sacred Healing or Divine Ward).

The feats I'm currently considering are Improved Initiative (though it's most common for the cohort to go on the PC's action), Extra Music, and divine feats. The goal is to have this cohort use Chain Harmonic Chorus as often as possible.

The cohort won't have many hit points on her own, but the PC should be able to help. Otherwise, I'd consider Improved Toughness as an alternate feat option.

Your advice is welcome. Thanks.
UMiskatonic
09-20-07, 06:05 AM Ok, here goes....

If -I- were a wizard, I'd want one of two auras. Motivate INT, or overcome SR.
Have you thought about that part yet?

A bard/marshal will do very well with UMD. Pick up at least one of the various cleric 'fix it' spells, just in case you need someone to remove a disease, etc. Likewise, wands of CLW are something a bard can use, and should. After the battle, of course.

I'm not so sure about Sacred Exorcist. The best turn-powered meta-magic tricks are gone, and divine ward doesn't really work with the spells you are looking at. I mean, you can already use bard song, haste, and your marshal auras on the whole party. What would you be divine warding?

Other good bard spells include sculpt sound and phantom steed. A bard can get an entire party airborne, mobile, and stealthy with those. Some way to get invisibility for the whole party is also solid. You'll pick up a huge amount of versatility with these. I've seen

Sonorous Hum allows you to maintain concentration. How many concentration spells do you have? If you're worried about bardsong, I wouldn't be. If you let it coast, you'll have five rounds. That's a LONG time at APL 14-16. And you can always start singing again, if needed.

You'll want at least one form of attack, I'd think. Even if it's a wand of magic missiles. lots of options there.

If you take chain spell, you'll REALLY want other spells that can be chained.

I'd avoid extra music like the plague, and imp. initiative isn't much better. Seriously, 9 uses of bardic music aren't enough? Really?
UMiskatonic
09-20-07, 07:33 AM Chain Harmonic chorus? Is there a group that you normally play with? Because if you are the only spellcaster who needs it, one harmonic chorus might suffice.

Joyful Noise is a good 1st level bard spell as well. It's really hard to otherwise duplicate the effects.

And to clarify, I don't think you have to have a wand of magic missiles, I think you need an attack form. That's just an example.
Lomiat
09-20-07, 09:25 AM Yeah, I think Sacred Exorcist is out of the equation. While it would be cute to have a bard use Divine Ward, it's not worth choosing Dismissal as one of the character's few 5th-level spells.

I'll swap the Sacred Exorcist for a third level of Sublime Chord.

I couldn't find a feat that allows bards to use bard song to apply metamagic without increasing spell level -- is there one? I thought there was. Otherwise, Lyric Spell becomes one of the probable feats (and would require at least one Extra Music to make it viable).

For what it's worth, I should note that my bard would have access to the full bard/marshal regalia from the MIC, so I can't dip below 9 levels of bard -- as it's just too good to give 50 temp hit points with the horn.
copper_wyrmling
09-20-07, 12:59 PM Yeah, I think Sacred Exorcist is out of the equation. While it would be cute to have a bard use Divine Ward, it's not worth choosing Dismissal as one of the character's few 5th-level spells.

I'll swap the Sacred Exorcist for a third level of Sublime Chord.

I couldn't find a feat that allows bards to use bard song to apply metamagic without increasing spell level -- is there one? I thought there was. Otherwise, Lyric Spell becomes one of the probable feats (and would require at least one Extra Music to make it viable).

For what it's worth, I should note that my bard would have access to the full bard/marshal regalia from the MIC, so I can't dip below 9 levels of bard -- as it's just too good to give 50 temp hit points with the horn.

There's Metamagic Song (Races of Stone), but it doesn't allow you to increase the effective spell level above what you would normally be able to cast, it just lets you use lower-level spell slots.

Have you considered Inspire Spellpower, also from Races of Stone? It's a feat that lets you use bardsong to grant +1 caster level to all allied spellcasters. Hymn of Praise is the other bard spell that boosts CL, albeit only for divine spellcasters, so probably not so interesting for you.
Lomiat
09-20-07, 01:29 PM There's Metamagic Song (Races of Stone), but it doesn't allow you to increase the effective spell level above what you would normally be able to cast, it just lets you use lower-level spell slots.

Have you considered Inspire Spellpower, also from Races of Stone? It's a feat that lets you use bardsong to grant +1 caster level to all allied spellcasters. Hymn of Praise is the other bard spell that boosts CL, albeit only for divine spellcasters, so probably not so interesting for you.

Thanks for the name of the feat (Metamagic Song) and book. I'll have to check it out and do the math to see if Metamagic Song works out better than Lyric Spell (though I expect it will).

Is Rapid Metamagic the name of the feat that lets spontaneous casters ignore the full-round for metamagic? If so, is it open? (I have no reference materials on hand at work.)
copper_wyrmling
09-20-07, 01:47 PM Thanks for the name of the feat (Metamagic Song) and book. I'll have to check it out and do the math to see if Metamagic Song works out better than Lyric Spell (though I expect it will).

Is Rapid Metamagic the name of the feat that lets spontaneous casters ignore the full-round for metamagic? If so, is it open? (I have no reference materials on hand at work.)

Yes, Rapid Metamagic, from Complete Mage; it's Open and requires 12 ranks in Spellcraft.
KarmaInferno
09-20-07, 06:19 PM Melodic Casting will let you save considerable skill points. It lets you substitute perform checks in place of concentration checks for spellcasting. You're going to have a good perform check anyhow, take advantage of it. Also, it lets you cast spells and use verbal magic items without interrupting bardsong.

As for Auras...

Motivate Charisma can really push all the party's social checks into the stratosphere. Clerics love it too for turning checks. The Cohort really gets a lot out of it, as he effectively gets to double his already good Charisma modifier for lots of stuff, including bardsong. My 13 Marshal/Sublime Chord can hit Diplomacy and Perform checks of 60.

Motivate Dexterity means the party goes first. This is not insignificant.

I don't like Motivate Intelligence that much, as it's not going to do a whole lot except for Knowledge checks, Rogue stuff, and Spellcraft. Very situational.

-karma
Mommy was an Orc
09-20-07, 06:23 PM Another thing to possibly consider, especially considering that you've got a 15 Int and starting out at 13th is taking advantage of levels 6-10. As an example, Beguiler 8/Marshal 1/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 1. You've got a boatload of useful at will spells to complement your Sublime Chord spells.

Fochulan Lyrist also starts to become an interesting option, especially depending on access(i.e. Combat Medic)

A Bard 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 2/Combat Medic 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochulan Lyrist 2 can be a Bard 1, Druid 1, Cleric 3, Wizard 7, and Sublime Chord 3 caster. Though that could be overwhelming to play as a Cohort.
paigeoliver
09-20-07, 11:29 PM Cohorts do not go on your action. The rules don't allow for that option. I say improved init all the way.
Lomiat
09-21-07, 09:05 AM Another thing to possibly consider, especially considering that you've got a 15 Int and starting out at 13th is taking advantage of levels 6-10. As an example, Beguiler 8/Marshal 1/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 1. You've got a boatload of useful at will spells to complement your Sublime Chord spells.

Fochulan Lyrist also starts to become an interesting option, especially depending on access(i.e. Combat Medic)

A Bard 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 2/Combat Medic 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochulan Lyrist 2 can be a Bard 1, Druid 1, Cleric 3, Wizard 7, and Sublime Chord 3 caster. Though that could be overwhelming to play as a Cohort.

Thanks for the ideas, Mommy, but my PC has access to the full Regalia of the Hero (or Regalia of the Such-and-Such), so I want Bard 9 -- minimum -- for Inspire Greatness and 50 temporary hit points from the Horn. Also, Bard 8 and Inspirational Boost will get my party a +4/+4 Inspire Courage, so that's not to be dismissed lightly.

How much, though, would one level of Virtuoso add (in place of the 3rd Sublime Chord)? I have none of my reference materials on hand...
Mommy was an Orc
09-21-07, 09:40 AM Thanks for the ideas, Mommy, but my PC has access to the full Regalia of the Hero (or Regalia of the Such-and-Such), so I want Bard 9 -- minimum -- for Inspire Greatness and 50 temporary hit points from the Horn. Also, Bard 8 and Inspirational Boost will get my party a +4/+4 Inspire Courage, so that's not to be dismissed lightly.

How much, though, would one level of Virtuoso add (in place of the 3rd Sublime Chord)? I have none of my reference materials on hand...

You might still consider Fochulan Lyrist, then. Rogue 2/Bard 7/Druid 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochulan Lyrist 2 has Bard 9 music. You might also consider Bard 13 - with a MW lute and access, he'd be treated as a Bard 14 for purposes of music(i.e. Inspire Courage +5...) and with a MW Harp(lap), he'd affect 3 people with Inspire Greatness.

Another option is Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 2-3. That makes you a Bard 12 for Inspire Greatness without losing Sublime Chord spell progression.
KarmaInferno
09-21-07, 11:27 AM How much, though, would one level of Virtuoso add (in place of the 3rd Sublime Chord)? I have none of my reference materials on hand...

Most Virtuoso/Sublime Chord builds try and place the first level of Virtuoso BEFORE picking up Sublime Chord, as the first level of Virtuoso does NOT advance spellcasting.

The ones I've seen generally put the first level of Virtuoso somewhere in levels 7-10, get Sublime Chord at 11, and put any further levels of Virtuoso after that to advance SC casting.

-karma

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lomiat 09-19-07, 03:41 PM	My wizard will hit 15th level before too long and will likely use a favor from a special mission to pick up a cohort, most likely a bard/marshal build that runs into Sublime Chord if I can get enough levels on the cohort. The cohort will be an elf, and most likely a grey elf, though the subrace depends on the way my Triad interprets the favor. Marshal 1/Bard 9/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 1 Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 18 (at 12th) feats: 1 - ?, 3 - Extend Spell, 6 - Chain Spell, 9 - Lyric Metamagic (?), 12 - ? default spells: 1 - Inspirational Boost, Grease; 2 - Harmonic Chorus, Harmonize, Silence; 3 - Haste, Sonorous Hum ; 4 - Dimension Door; 5 - Greater Dispel Magic At this point, I'm open to opinions regarding the best use of the remaining two feat slots, spell selection, and whether or not it would be worthwhile to pick up the level of Sacred Exorcist for turn attempts (and, thus, either Sacred Healing or Divine Ward). The feats I'm currently considering are Improved Initiative (though it's most common for the cohort to go on the PC's action), Extra Music, and divine feats. The goal is to have this cohort use Chain Harmonic Chorus as often as possible. The cohort won't have many hit points on her own, but the PC should be able to help. Otherwise, I'd consider Improved Toughness as an alternate feat option. Your advice is welcome. Thanks.
UMiskatonic 09-20-07, 06:05 AM	Ok, here goes.... If -I- were a wizard, I'd want one of two auras. Motivate INT, or overcome SR. Have you thought about that part yet? A bard/marshal will do very well with UMD. Pick up at least one of the various cleric 'fix it' spells, just in case you need someone to remove a disease, etc. Likewise, wands of CLW are something a bard can use, and should. After the battle, of course. I'm not so sure about Sacred Exorcist. The best turn-powered meta-magic tricks are gone, and divine ward doesn't really work with the spells you are looking at. I mean, you can already use bard song, haste, and your marshal auras on the whole party. What would you be divine warding? Other good bard spells include sculpt sound and phantom steed. A bard can get an entire party airborne, mobile, and stealthy with those. Some way to get invisibility for the whole party is also solid. You'll pick up a huge amount of versatility with these. I've seen Sonorous Hum allows you to maintain concentration. How many concentration spells do you have? If you're worried about bardsong, I wouldn't be. If you let it coast, you'll have five rounds. That's a LONG time at APL 14-16. And you can always start singing again, if needed. You'll want at least one form of attack, I'd think. Even if it's a wand of magic missiles. lots of options there. If you take chain spell, you'll REALLY want other spells that can be chained. I'd avoid extra music like the plague, and imp. initiative isn't much better. Seriously, 9 uses of bardic music aren't enough? Really?
UMiskatonic 09-20-07, 07:33 AM	Chain Harmonic chorus? Is there a group that you normally play with? Because if you are the only spellcaster who needs it, one harmonic chorus might suffice. Joyful Noise is a good 1st level bard spell as well. It's really hard to otherwise duplicate the effects. And to clarify, I don't think you have to have a wand of magic missiles, I think you need an attack form. That's just an example.
Lomiat 09-20-07, 09:25 AM	Yeah, I think Sacred Exorcist is out of the equation. While it would be cute to have a bard use Divine Ward, it's not worth choosing Dismissal as one of the character's few 5th-level spells. I'll swap the Sacred Exorcist for a third level of Sublime Chord. I couldn't find a feat that allows bards to use bard song to apply metamagic without increasing spell level -- is there one? I thought there was. Otherwise, Lyric Spell becomes one of the probable feats (and would require at least one Extra Music to make it viable). For what it's worth, I should note that my bard would have access to the full bard/marshal regalia from the MIC, so I can't dip below 9 levels of bard -- as it's just too good to give 50 temp hit points with the horn.
copper_wyrmling 09-20-07, 12:59 PM	Yeah, I think Sacred Exorcist is out of the equation. While it would be cute to have a bard use Divine Ward, it's not worth choosing Dismissal as one of the character's few 5th-level spells. I'll swap the Sacred Exorcist for a third level of Sublime Chord. I couldn't find a feat that allows bards to use bard song to apply metamagic without increasing spell level -- is there one? I thought there was. Otherwise, Lyric Spell becomes one of the probable feats (and would require at least one Extra Music to make it viable). For what it's worth, I should note that my bard would have access to the full bard/marshal regalia from the MIC, so I can't dip below 9 levels of bard -- as it's just too good to give 50 temp hit points with the horn. There's Metamagic Song (Races of Stone), but it doesn't allow you to increase the effective spell level above what you would normally be able to cast, it just lets you use lower-level spell slots. Have you considered Inspire Spellpower, also from Races of Stone? It's a feat that lets you use bardsong to grant +1 caster level to all allied spellcasters. Hymn of Praise is the other bard spell that boosts CL, albeit only for divine spellcasters, so probably not so interesting for you.
Lomiat 09-20-07, 01:29 PM	There's Metamagic Song (Races of Stone), but it doesn't allow you to increase the effective spell level above what you would normally be able to cast, it just lets you use lower-level spell slots. Have you considered Inspire Spellpower, also from Races of Stone? It's a feat that lets you use bardsong to grant +1 caster level to all allied spellcasters. Hymn of Praise is the other bard spell that boosts CL, albeit only for divine spellcasters, so probably not so interesting for you. Thanks for the name of the feat (Metamagic Song) and book. I'll have to check it out and do the math to see if Metamagic Song works out better than Lyric Spell (though I expect it will). Is Rapid Metamagic the name of the feat that lets spontaneous casters ignore the full-round for metamagic? If so, is it open? (I have no reference materials on hand at work.)
copper_wyrmling 09-20-07, 01:47 PM	Thanks for the name of the feat (Metamagic Song) and book. I'll have to check it out and do the math to see if Metamagic Song works out better than Lyric Spell (though I expect it will). Is Rapid Metamagic the name of the feat that lets spontaneous casters ignore the full-round for metamagic? If so, is it open? (I have no reference materials on hand at work.) Yes, Rapid Metamagic, from Complete Mage; it's Open and requires 12 ranks in Spellcraft.
KarmaInferno 09-20-07, 06:19 PM	Melodic Casting will let you save considerable skill points. It lets you substitute perform checks in place of concentration checks for spellcasting. You're going to have a good perform check anyhow, take advantage of it. Also, it lets you cast spells and use verbal magic items without interrupting bardsong. As for Auras... Motivate Charisma can really push all the party's social checks into the stratosphere. Clerics love it too for turning checks. The Cohort really gets a lot out of it, as he effectively gets to double his already good Charisma modifier for lots of stuff, including bardsong. My 13 Marshal/Sublime Chord can hit Diplomacy and Perform checks of 60. Motivate Dexterity means the party goes first. This is not insignificant. I don't like Motivate Intelligence that much, as it's not going to do a whole lot except for Knowledge checks, Rogue stuff, and Spellcraft. Very situational. -karma
Mommy was an Orc 09-20-07, 06:23 PM	Another thing to possibly consider, especially considering that you've got a 15 Int and starting out at 13th is taking advantage of levels 6-10. As an example, Beguiler 8/Marshal 1/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 1. You've got a boatload of useful at will spells to complement your Sublime Chord spells. Fochulan Lyrist also starts to become an interesting option, especially depending on access(i.e. Combat Medic) A Bard 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 2/Combat Medic 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochulan Lyrist 2 can be a Bard 1, Druid 1, Cleric 3, Wizard 7, and Sublime Chord 3 caster. Though that could be overwhelming to play as a Cohort.
paigeoliver 09-20-07, 11:29 PM	Cohorts do not go on your action. The rules don't allow for that option. I say improved init all the way.
Lomiat 09-21-07, 09:05 AM	Another thing to possibly consider, especially considering that you've got a 15 Int and starting out at 13th is taking advantage of levels 6-10. As an example, Beguiler 8/Marshal 1/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Sacred Exorcist 1. You've got a boatload of useful at will spells to complement your Sublime Chord spells. Fochulan Lyrist also starts to become an interesting option, especially depending on access(i.e. Combat Medic) A Bard 1/Druid 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 2/Combat Medic 5/Sublime Chord 1/Fochulan Lyrist 2 can be a Bard 1, Druid 1, Cleric 3, Wizard 7, and Sublime Chord 3 caster. Though that could be overwhelming to play as a Cohort. Thanks for the ideas, Mommy, but my PC has access to the full Regalia of the Hero (or Regalia of the Such-and-Such), so I want Bard 9 -- minimum -- for Inspire Greatness and 50 temporary hit points from the Horn. Also, Bard 8 and Inspirational Boost will get my party a +4/+4 Inspire Courage, so that's not to be dismissed lightly. How much, though, would one level of Virtuoso add (in place of the 3rd Sublime Chord)? I have none of my reference materials on hand...
Mommy was an Orc 09-21-07, 09:40 AM	Thanks for the ideas, Mommy, but my PC has access to the full Regalia of the Hero (or Regalia of the Such-and-Such), so I want Bard 9 -- minimum -- for Inspire Greatness and 50 temporary hit points from the Horn. Also, Bard 8 and Inspirational Boost will get my party a +4/+4 Inspire Courage, so that's not to be dismissed lightly. How much, though, would one level of Virtuoso add (in place of the 3rd Sublime Chord)? I have none of my reference materials on hand... You might still consider Fochulan Lyrist, then. Rogue 2/Bard 7/Druid 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochulan Lyrist 2 has Bard 9 music. You might also consider Bard 13 - with a MW lute and access, he'd be treated as a Bard 14 for purposes of music(i.e. Inspire Courage +5...) and with a MW Harp(lap), he'd affect 3 people with Inspire Greatness. Another option is Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 1/Virtuoso 2-3. That makes you a Bard 12 for Inspire Greatness without losing Sublime Chord spell progression.
KarmaInferno 09-21-07, 11:27 AM	How much, though, would one level of Virtuoso add (in place of the 3rd Sublime Chord)? I have none of my reference materials on hand... Most Virtuoso/Sublime Chord builds try and place the first level of Virtuoso BEFORE picking up Sublime Chord, as the first level of Virtuoso does NOT advance spellcasting. The ones I've seen generally put the first level of Virtuoso somewhere in levels 7-10, get Sublime Chord at 11, and put any further levels of Virtuoso after that to advance SC casting. -karma