Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nagareth 06-13-07, 10:34 PM	I've done a lot of looking at the forums on wizards and I've seen a lot of Grey Elves with these stats: Str 6 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 8 Cha 8 I've also heard a lot about debuffer, buffer, and Battlefield control wizards. I'd like to hear more about these wizards. I'm not interested in drawing alot of attention on my wizard. A con of 12 and a str of 6 I cannot afford to throw around spells that harm like the big bang theory. What I want (please) Pros and Cons of Buffers, debuffers and Battlefield control. How would I go about building one and how would they help my group? Pros and Cons of a none specialized wizard. How would I go about building one? I'm a newbie when it comes to playing D&D but I've DM'd for around 6 years (so little I know) I'm looking at playing a wizard so explain to me like I'm one of those drooling retard idoits that should know this by now (lol).
Lomiat 06-13-07, 11:00 PM	Battlefield control = use of no-save, no-SR spells (or spells that still "work" even if someone saves; e.g. grease or web) to funnel your foes into a position that's advantageous for your party AND the use of spells like dimension door, mass fly, haste and others that provide your party a tactical advantage. Buffer = a caster who's almost done casting spells by the time battles begin (well, depends on the APL and such). You focus on spells that always work because they always manage to make your teammates better. Haste, Fly, Bull's Strength, Mage Armor (for the monk), Heroism, Protection from Evil, etc. If you can get access to a spell like Heroics, it will almost make you a buffer-mage by default (one casting gives any one PC a fighter feat for which they could qualify; "Want Improved Initiative? Sure, you've got it. How about Combat Expertise? Oh, not that smart? How about Cleave?"). De-buffer = a caster who focuses on making bad guys less buffed. Reduce their abilities, strip their magic, etc. Dispel Magic, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Clumsiness (if you find access), Enervation, Waves of Exhaustion. This is best done with no-save spells, but you can also throw in the classics like Slow and Bestow Curse. Most likely, your spell selection will adapt to include elements of all three styles (as well as some damage and save-or-be-done spells), and you'll get used to switching from one to another based on your table composition and the flow of play.
Lupo 06-13-07, 11:06 PM	I've done a lot of looking at the forums on wizards and I've seen a lot of Grey Elves with these stats: Str 6 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 8 Cha 8 I've also heard a lot about debuffer, buffer, and Battlefield control wizards. I'd like to hear more about these wizards. I'm not interested in drawing alot of attention on my wizard. A con of 12 and a str of 6 I cannot afford to throw around spells that harm like the big bang theory. What I want (please) Pros and Cons of Buffers, debuffers and Battlefield control. How would I go about building one and how would they help my group? Pros and Cons of a none specialized wizard. How would I go about building one? I'm a newbie when it comes to playing D&D but I've DM'd for around 6 years (so little I know) I'm looking at playing a wizard so explain to me like I'm one of those drooling retard idoits that should know this by now (lol). the st 6 int 20 "shadow snacks" get most for the saves against their spells, so any wizard who is NOT concentrating on spells with saves can go without int 20. anything a wizard casts on his fellows does not have anything to do with the save DC of the spell. fairly obvious, just concentrate on buff spells, but don't be to narrow, a generalist - any race - with some buffs will work most of the time. anything a wizard summons - when access given later as alienist - does not bother with saves. a good choice for a human wizard, as the bonus feat can be spent on the combo of spell focus conjuration/augment summoning no-save/no-SR spells are all to common now, so when one specializes on these it is more important to hit, than what int score one has. works especially good with gnomes and halflings, as they get a bonus to hit, halflings even get a dex boost, so they can get along without point blank and precise shot. gnome and dwarven wizards can just be sturdy, the opposite of the "shadow snack" with barely enough hit points to survive a slingstone - a fellow elven wizard had the following tactic: first round cast haste, than drop prone to avoid ranged attacks and hope that the frontliners will block the foes - and shot a magic missile or lesser orb from time to time. ciao martin m.
Nagareth 06-14-07, 12:22 AM	What would be a good balanced wizard? one that is not shadow snacks and can still cast some spells. I was thinking of something maybe human. with stats like: str 8 dex 14 con 14 int 18 wis 8 cha 8 or str 10 dex 14 con 14 int 16 wis 12 cha 8 What is your thoughts on it? I'm new to playing and I'm looking for something balanced but effective.
MatteBlack 06-14-07, 01:02 AM	One upside of the 20 INT is that you can end up with tons of knowlege skills with good bonuses to them. It adds a nice non-combat role to the character that can occasionally save an adventure.
Cardinal Teplin 06-14-07, 09:45 AM	What would be a good balanced wizard? one that is not shadow snacks and can still cast some spells. I was thinking of something maybe human. with stats like: str 8 dex 14 con 14 int 18 wis 8 cha 8 or str 10 dex 14 con 14 int 16 wis 12 cha 8 What is your thoughts on it? I'm new to playing and I'm looking for something balanced but effective. Human is fine. You get the same skill points as a grey elf, but your lower int means one less bonus spell and one less to all your save DCs. You also get less dex, so one less AC, one less reflex save and one less to hit with a bow, or any spells that need a touch attack. As a human you get more con, which means more hp and more fort save, and a bonus feat. I reckon grey elf is the better build. You'll never regret getting your int as high as possible, particularly since many battlefeild control and debuff spell involve saves. But it's not a huge difference. I really wouldn't worry about shadows. Just try not to carry too much equipment. Battlefield control, buff, debuff are all tactics rathers than builds per se. It's what you cast in combat, rather than your build. Battlefield control is usually a matter of stopping melee monsters from closing with the party by slowing them down, stopping archery and spellcaster monsters from shooting the party by blocking line of sight or forcing concentration checks, and making sure that the party can reach flying and mobile critters, either by allowing them to fly or move fast too, or by bringing to earth and/or slowing down your opponent. It can also be useful to temporarily take half the monsters out of the fight, so you can concentrate on the other half. Classic spells include grease, web, pyrotechnics, fog cloud, stinking cloud, solid fog, any form of wall, and so on. The main point of battlefield control is to stop the monster using their best tactics. Big hard-hitting monsters can't close, and you shoot them from long range. Spell-casting opponents can't target you at range, allowing party to close. numerous monsters can't all attack at once. At so on. Debuffing is about making the monster worse. Ray of enfeeblement, blindness, glitterdust, bestow curse, slow, and of course dispel magic. Slowed creatures can't full attack, and thus get only one attack a round if they can reach you at all. Knocking strength off something with lots of attacks like a hydra can make it almost harmless. Most creatures are ineffectual when blind. Debuffing can make a difficult combat into an easy one. Buffing is about making your party better. Haste, greater magic weapon, mage armour, various stat boosts, heroism, fly, any form of invisibility, discplacement, and so on. The main advantage of buffing is that you can do it _before_ combat, thus saving your actions for casting more spells. Buff spells should be on almost everyone's spell list eventually, if only because, after about 4th level or so, you'll have more spells per day than there are combat rounds in the adventure. There isn't a huge amount you can do to specialise in these tactics, though, except for taking and memorising the appriopriate spells. At first level we're looking at grease for battlefield control, mage armour and enlarge for buffing, and ray of enfeeblement for debuffing. Sculpt spell is probably a good feat for a battlefeild control mage. Extend spell and chain spell can be good for buff spells, but both are less useful than they might first appear. (Extend won't change the fact that spells are either long duration or not, chain is very expensive). Transdimensional spell is a good one for the dedicated battlefield controller, but the main use would be against incorporeals, and force spells are arguably almost as good. Create wonderous item is very good for wizards, and you should probably take it. You may wonder why wizards like pearls of power so much, but the first time you're asked to provide mage armour to yourself, the druid, the druid's animal companion, the rogue, the monk and the paladin's mount, then you'll understand why. Crafting a boccob's blessed book is a good move, and you should plan to do as soon as you can afford it. And don't neglect damage altogether. It's sometimes useful, particularly when you are tired, it's late, and you don't want to spend a few minutes coming up with something clever. Ultimately, however, a wizard is very hard to mess up. Get a decent intelligence, make sure you have a good variety of spells, don't go for prestige classes that don't advance spellcasting, and don't stand in the front. Oh, and for the first level or two, your most common and effective attack may just be to fire a crossbow. Don't worry, it's only for a few adventures.
Nagareth 06-14-07, 01:40 PM	I understand now :). Thank you very much for explaining it to me. Now I have to deal out some stats, I'm thinking str 6 dex 16 con 12 int 20 wis 8 cha 8 would you say the 8 wisdom is a bad idea? and for skills I'd take Concentration: 4 ranks (+5) Spellcraft: 4 ranks (+9) Knowledges; Arcana: 4 ranks (+9) Religion: 3 ranks (+8) The Planes: 3 ranks (+8) Dungeon: 3 ranks (+8) Nature: 1 rank (+6) History: 1 rank (+6) Nobility: 1 rank (+6) Local: 1 rank (+6) Arch/Eng: 1 rank (+6) Geography: 1 rank (+6) Decipher Script: 1 rank (+6) Any ideas on that as well? I was thinking of maybe putting Dungeon down to +6 and nature up to +8.
delewobmesid 06-14-07, 03:08 PM	scrolls of comp lang are better than dcipher script; focus on what you want to be good at and stick with it; what languages do you want your wizard to speak? he'll start with 7 (2 racail and 5 other)
awroe 06-14-07, 06:04 PM	would you say the 8 wisdom is a bad idea? and for skills I'd take I have a wizard with a similar build. I don't find the lack of wisdom to be a major issue - opponents tend to assume wizards will have good will saves (and you will after a few levels) and use other kinds of spells. The hit to Spot and Listen is countered with Alertness from the familiar. Any ideas on that as well? I was thinking of maybe putting Dungeon down to +6 and nature up to +8. Skills look good. Despite the comments on Decipher Scripts uselessness, I've found a number of occasions where it comes up and Comprehend Languages won't work - codes, non-language messages (e.g. maps), hidden patterns in woodwork, etc. I would ensure you get at least one rank in every knowledge after the first couple of levels - then you can take 10 and get DC15 checks every time, or roll for a chance at the DC20/25 ones. Dungeoneering vs. Nature comes down to personal preference - my wizard specialises in all the knowledges that give monster information, but this is much more of a roleplaying choice than anything. Do you feel your character would have spent more time studying dungeons or the wilderness? AW.
JamesMaissen 06-14-07, 11:12 PM	Any ideas on that as well? I was thinking of maybe putting Dungeon down to +6 and nature up to +8. First goal I would have is to get atleast 1 rank in each of the knowledges as that will atleast give you a roll. And at +6 that roll won't be trivial at low level. Secondly I would take a look at which knowledges give you information on random creatures that you might encounter. Now take a look at which knowledges give you which kinds of creatures. Dungeoneering gives oozes and abberations. Both are wide groups of creatures with a vast array of special abilities and defenses. Nature gives many more kinds of creatures, but they don't tend to have as varied a number of special abilities. Animals are fairly simple. Giants and monstrous humanoids can have a few things. Plants aren't all that weird. Fey can be but aren't as common. I would look to get them all, but while Religion and Nature might be found on non-wizards, Dungeoneering is rare to find at all. My vote would be for maxing Dungeoneering. Still work on the rest. In the end, baring a PrC you may wish to aim for, and pay for entrance with skills I would look towards the following by 7th level. Spellcraft (10 ranks) Concentration (10 ranks) Know: Arcana (10 ranks) Know: Religion (10 ranks) Know: Dungeoneering (10 ranks) Know: Planes (10 ranks) Know (all others) 1 rank each And depending if you wish to do without some of the Knowledge: Locals (how I hate they break this skill up) you could pick up a rank in other trained only INT skills. Classwise I'd suggest that you look at the typical Wizard5/Divine Oracle2/Loremaster build, as it's a good generalist wizard build that doesn't cost you a whole lot that you wouldn't otherwise be doing to enter into them. -James
Genghis Cohen 06-15-07, 01:01 PM	I've done a lot of looking at the forums on wizards and I've seen a lot of Grey Elves with these stats: Str 6 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 20 Wis 8 Cha 8 I've also heard a lot about debuffer, buffer, and Battlefield control wizards. I'd like to hear more about these wizards. I'm not interested in drawing alot of attention on my wizard. A con of 12 and a str of 6 I cannot afford to throw around spells that harm like the big bang theory. What I want (please) Pros and Cons of Buffers, debuffers and Battlefield control. How would I go about building one and how would they help my group? Pros and Cons of a none specialized wizard. How would I go about building one? I'm a newbie when it comes to playing D&D but I've DM'd for around 6 years (so little I know) I'm looking at playing a wizard so explain to me like I'm one of those drooling retard idoits that should know this by now (lol).If you're playing a 6 str gray elven wizard, you should make it a high priority to buy a mithral buckler and thistledown padded armor as soon as possible. Then get both enchanted to +1. Then get Death Ward on both as soon as you get access. You might see table variation about having Death Ward on both and/or having seperate activations for the two enchantments, but its worth it. There's a lot of AR access required for all of this, but it should be a goal for survivability. My 9th level gray elven wiz has all of this but the most important part: Death Ward access. Don't worry to much about buffing. You should have those spells in your book, but these are often spells that a cleric, druid or bard can cast, and the DCs are not important. A spell like Haste is something that you'll cast a lot between APL 6 and 10. By APL 12, those that need it should have Boots of Speed. Battlefield contol and debuffing is where a min/maxed gray elf can shine. IME, in most situations, its much more effective than damage dealing spells. Specialized versus non-specialized is a matter of preference. Specialized is better at low levels. My preference is non-specialized because I want to be able to cast and use everything. Speaking of using everything, I've learned the hard way that the spell Identify is your friend. I strongly recomend that you get it in your spell book, and have several scrolls scribed.
Cardinal Teplin 06-15-07, 06:25 PM	I understand now :). Thank you very much for explaining it to me. Now I have to deal out some stats, I'm thinking str 6 dex 16 con 12 int 20 wis 8 cha 8 would you say the 8 wisdom is a bad idea? Those are very common stats, so I think you'll be fine. and for skills I'd take <snip> Any ideas on that as well? I was thinking of maybe putting Dungeon down to +6 and nature up to +8. It's a very good choice of skills. At least one point in every knowledge plus deceipher script, a few maxed out, plus concentration, spellcraft etc. The rest really doesn't much matter. The fate of your character in unlikely to depend on whether you get a further +2 to your knowledge : dungeoneering check. Concentrate on what makes sense for your character. What you should do is start looking at prestige classes, or at least think about it before you hit level three. Most of them have steep skill requirements and require feats that you wouldn't otherwise take. Wizard isn't a fatal class to take beyond 5th level, but there is very little to recommend it. You might also want to think about customising your wizard a little, and taking some options that are less effective, but fun. My wizard has improved familiar and three maxed-out cross class skills (ride, umd and perform). In theory these are both sub-optimal choices, but it doesn't make a huge amount of difference. Similarly, you could take a metamagic feats like empower, so that you can do reasonable direct damage should you really need to.
boogahwoof 06-17-07, 02:53 AM	I actually think warmages make great battlefield control specialists heres a sample human str 10 dex 12 con 12 int 14 wis 10 cha 16 1st w mage spell focus evo meta magic school focus evo 2nd w mage 3rd w mage scultpt spell 4th w mage stat bump cha 5th w mage 6th w mage rapid meta magic 7th w mage sudden empower 8th w mage stat bump cha 9th w mage widen spell 10th w mage sudden enlarge the point is at 4th level you can start your battlefield control, sculpting spells at no cost to the spell level (meta magic school focus) if you have to use it and cause your a spontaniose caster, you can add them on the fly. At 6th you wont have to worry bout them being full round casrings. Warmages have excelent control spells. Having school focus and a high cha will ensure your dcs staying high as well.
Timlagor 06-17-07, 02:25 PM	Errr.. what 'control spells' does a Warmage get? I admit I haven't pored over the spell list but I thought they were all direct damage spells (and therefore nor remotely 'battlefield control').
awroe 06-17-07, 05:30 PM	6th w mage rapid meta magic I thought you needed 12 ranks in spellcraft for Rapid Metamagic - which makes it 9th level minimum?
boogahwoof 06-17-07, 06:24 PM	They do get some spells like sleet storm, ice storm, evards, wall of fire, cloudkill, acid fog. All of which when you sculpt them can be control and deadly. The warmage route isnt the optimal route probly, but it lets you use some control, and still be very effective in other areas as well.
JamesMaissen 06-18-07, 01:47 AM	I actually think warmages make great battlefield control specialists heres a sample human str 10 dex 12 con 12 int 14 wis 10 cha 16. I would strongly suggest that you take atleast a 14 CON for a character. Also as a warmage has many spells that are ranged touch attacks you likely wish atleast a 14 DEX score. Towards this I'd suggest that you lower STR and WIS to 8 each to allow for 14s in DEX and CON. 1st w mage spell focus evo meta magic school focus evo 2nd w mage 3rd w mage scultpt spell You don't qualify for Sculpt Spell here. You need a prior metamagic feat for it. 4th w mage stat bump cha 5th w mage 6th w mage rapid meta magic You need to be higher level than 6th to take Rapid Metamagic I believe. 7th w mage sudden empower 8th w mage stat bump cha 9th w mage widen spell Widen spell is a +3 level bump and as such is not worth it for you. Warmages do get some nice area spells. They don't get everything that'd you'd normally want in a battlefield control wizard however. I'd suggest that you consider an Alienist build based on Wizard. Feats would include: SF: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Craft Wondrous, Rapid Spell, Sculpt Spell and Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration. This is obtainable by a human by 8th level and not even mandate specializing in a school. If you don't like Alienist then a human could have it by 9th level and just loose out on a feat. Summons would be part of what you deliver, but battlefield control would be your outlook on things. Sometimes dropping something on the board is the best move in that respect. With a truestrike to back it up it will hit with it's first attack and 'justify' itself as a legitimate threat on the board. This is especially true for the pseudonatural dire weasels... -James
copper_wyrmling 06-18-07, 05:59 AM	If you're playing a 6 str gray elven wizard, you should make it a high priority to buy a mithral buckler and thistledown padded armor as soon as possible. Then get both enchanted to +1. Then get Death Ward on both as soon as you get access. You might see table variation about having Death Ward on both and/or having seperate activations for the two enchantments, but its worth it. There's a lot of AR access required for all of this, but it should be a goal for survivability. My 9th level gray elven wiz has all of this but the most important part: Death Ward access. My L12 human sorceress, in contrast, has never found any of that access (no mithral buckler or generic mithral favors, no thistledown padded armor, no deathward access). In other words, grab this stuff if you get it, but don't assume you'll find it. It's a nice bonus, not something essential to playing a grey elf wizard (my sorceress started with very elflike stats, including Con 12, and walks around with AC 13 at APL 12+, and I've never regretted either decision - those tradeoffs were worthwhile). I personally find that battlefield controls and debuffs aren't especially dependent on save DCs (thus grey elves don't have a particularly large advantage), but it depends what spells you use. My sorcerer has (split ray) enervation, (split ray, empowered) ray of enfeeblement, spiritwall, and (sculpted) glitterdust as her primary debuffs: a grey elf could probably afford to emphasise stuff like slow and unluck more (especially unluck if you're a divination specialist). Similarly, the best battlefield control is SR:no and save:no (solid fog, evard's black tentacles, wall of force), or has a strong partial effect even on a successful save (grease, web), but having better save DCs never hurts.
_metz_ 06-18-07, 06:37 AM	My L12 human sorceress, in contrast, has never found any of that access (no mithral buckler or generic mithral favors, no thistledown padded armor, no deathward access). In other words, grab this stuff if you get it, but don't assume you'll find it. It's a nice bonus, not something essential to playing a grey elf wizard (my sorceress started with very elflike stats, including Con 12, and walks around with AC 13 at APL 12+, and I've never regretted either decision - those tradeoffs were worthwhile). I personally find that battlefield controls and debuffs aren't especially dependent on save DCs (thus grey elves don't have a particularly large advantage), but it depends what spells you use. My sorcerer has (split ray) enervation, (split ray, empowered) ray of enfeeblement, spiritwall, and (sculpted) glitterdust as her primary debuffs: a grey elf could probably afford to emphasise stuff like slow and unluck more (especially unluck if you're a divination specialist). Similarly, the best battlefield control is SR:no and save:no (solid fog, evard's black tentacles, wall of force), or has a strong partial effect even on a successful save (grease, web), but having better save DCs never hurts. Aren't you a Perrender? the Army USED to give out mithral access, I though you might have gotten it then. I have seen Deathward in a fair few Perrenland/Iuz Mods too...
copper_wyrmling 06-18-07, 07:10 AM	Aren't you a Perrender? the Army USED to give out mithral access, I though you might have gotten it then. I have seen Deathward in a fair few Perrenland/Iuz Mods too... The Perrenland army hasn't given out mithral access for quite a while - can't remember when it changed though (probably about the same time the Non-Kerk Temples stopped awarding Holy access :weep: - around two years ago iirc). Anyway, Azrien isn't in the Perrenland army - for some reason all her friends who are in the army find reasons to change the subject whenever the topic comes up in her presence ;) (Azrien is very, very Chaotic and would not fit well into the Perrenland army - also she does not actually consider herself a Perrender, but a citizen of the Sepia Uplands, despite her membership of Den Zauber Guild.) I've seen Death Ward access once in an Iuz mod, but not as an upgrade favor - it came in the form of an exotic shield, and I played that module with Yolande, my sacred exorcist, who uses a two-handed weapon. I don't think I've seen it in a Perrenland mod, but I've only played up to March of the Hollows (which was 6-06 I think), and only up to Madhouse for the Iuzies. I miss my IUZ/PER mods :weep:
_metz_ 06-18-07, 08:02 AM	The Perrenland army hasn't given out mithral access for quite a while - can't remember when it changed though (probably about the same time the Non-Kerk Temples stopped awarding Holy access :weep: - around two years ago iirc). Anyway, Azrien isn't in the Perrenland army - for some reason all her friends who are in the army find reasons to change the subject whenever the topic comes up in her presence ;) (Azrien is very, very Chaotic and would not fit well into the Perrenland army - also she does not actually consider herself a Perrender, but a citizen of the Sepia Uplands, despite her membership of Den Zauber Guild.) I've seen Death Ward access once in an Iuz mod, but not as an upgrade favor - it came in the form of an exotic shield, and I played that module with Yolande, my sacred exorcist, who uses a two-handed weapon. I don't think I've seen it in a Perrenland mod, but I've only played up to March of the Hollows (which was 6-06 I think), and only up to Madhouse for the Iuzies. I miss my IUZ/PER mods :weep: Yeah I do as well. Now being in Ratik is sucks. And I thought Sydney was going to be fun to do uni in :) Oh well at least I get The cons here :) I recall a current Iuz mod with Death ward, but not sure if its an upgrade or on a mithral chain shirt...
Mattastrophic 06-18-07, 10:08 AM	If you're playing a 6 str gray elven wizard, you should make it a high priority to buy a mithral buckler and thistledown padded armor as soon as possible. Then get both enchanted to +1. Then get Death Ward on both as soon as you get access. You might see table variation about having Death Ward on both and/or having seperate activations for the two enchantments, but its worth it. Keep in mind a few things here: -In Complete Arcane, Death Ward is armor-only. When it converts to Magic Item Compendium, only then will you be able to place it on shields. -Since with the current Complete Arcane version, you can only have one Death Ward piece active, thus no table variation. -In Magic Item Compendium, the effect requires an immediate action to activate. Thus, no table variation, as you can only ever activate one at a time. -Matt
boogahwoof 06-18-07, 07:39 PM	Actually meta magic school focus qualifies as a meta magic feat
copper_wyrmling 06-18-07, 11:04 PM	Keep in mind a few things here: -In Complete Arcane, Death Ward is armor-only. When it converts to Magic Item Compendium, only then will you be able to place it on shields. It's ambiguous in Complete Arcane, since they list a buckler in the Specific Armors section. A retired Iuz metaregional gave access to an exotic shield (gnome battle cloak) with the death ward enhancement.
solbergb 06-18-07, 11:18 PM	Errr.. what 'control spells' does a Warmage get? I admit I haven't pored over the spell list but I thought they were all direct damage spells (and therefore nor remotely 'battlefield control'). In levels 1-5 this is fairly true (although pyrotechnics can produce a very large blinding or smoke effect). At level 6 though, you've got stinking cloud and ice storm, both of which interfere with movement and both of which tend to interdict part of the battlefield. At level 8 you've got evards and wall of fire At level 10 or 11(I forget when the advanced learning comes) most warmages take wall of force at level 12 you get acid fog It's not a large part of their spell list, but it's enough to get the job done. The more accurate statement about the warmage list is that they pretty much only have OFFENSIVE spells. (even their defensive spells like ring of blades and fire shield can be used offensively) But arcane offense includes battlefield control. They won't be as versatile as a sorcerer with carefully chosen BC in their spell mix, but what they lack in finesse, they make up for in the ability to hammer anyone caught in the control spells they have.
solbergb 06-18-07, 11:22 PM	My L12 human sorceress, in contrast, has never found any of that access (no mithral buckler or generic mithral favors, no thistledown padded armor, no deathward access). Eh...I guess Olivia isn't going to tell Az that she's had "any mithril item" access since her 2nd AR, has had death ward since about level 7...but hasn't bothered to buy either because she never found the thistledown favor...I am of the opinion that death ward is an "armor only" enchantment and so the buckler is for light fortification or something.... and also, those darn bucklers and armor are heavy, and she needs her weight capacity for her quivers of size large arrows and bolts.... If I get an open ended thistledown favor I'll likely put it on a +1 feather cloak from Sandstorm. And then since I have a bit of AC, I'll probably get around to the mithril buckler. Maybe.... Before I retire anyway.... So many toys, so little time and cash....
solbergb 06-18-07, 11:25 PM	Keep in mind a few things here: -In Complete Arcane, Death Ward is armor-only. When it converts to Magic Item Compendium, only then will you be able to place it on shields. -Matt Wait...MIC makes it a shield enhancmeent?!?! Whohoo...in a year or so, maybe my sorc will have a place to put that enchantment....
copper_wyrmling 06-19-07, 12:36 AM	Eh...I guess Olivia isn't going to tell Az that she's had "any mithril item" access since her 2nd AR, has had death ward since about level 7...but hasn't bothered to buy either because she never found the thistledown favor...I am of the opinion that death ward is an "armor only" enchantment and so the buckler is for light fortification or something.... and also, those darn bucklers and armor are heavy, and she needs her weight capacity for her quivers of size large arrows and bolts.... If I get an open ended thistledown favor I'll likely put it on a +1 feather cloak from Sandstorm. And then since I have a bit of AC, I'll probably get around to the mithril buckler. Maybe.... Before I retire anyway.... So many toys, so little time and cash.... Grrrrrr. Az does not have the same problems as Olivia, evidently. Az is walking around with close to 30k in spare cash and nothing cool to spend it on :weep:
solbergb 06-19-07, 10:19 AM	Grrrrrr. Az does not have the same problems as Olivia, evidently. Az is walking around with close to 30k in spare cash and nothing cool to spend it on :weep: upgrade your +4 items to +6 items and your vest of resistanct to +5. That should clear your cash and keep you busy for a level...
Reylance 06-19-07, 12:32 PM	If you're planning a character for long-term LG play, where you will have three level-based stat bumps, you might consider putting only 13 points into Int. You'll start with a 19 Int, but then can either bump your Str to 7 and Wis to 10 (no one-shot from shadows) or your Str to 9 (no one-shot from greater shadows either). You probably won't need the Wis, but if the enemy wizard tosses a Feeblemind, you'll want every point to your Will save.
Mattastrophic 06-19-07, 02:05 PM	upgrade your +4 items to +6 items and your vest of resistanct to +5. That should clear your cash and keep you busy for a level... Seriously, there are so many Open items available that there's no reason to complain about having nothing to buy. Between Bracers of Armor +8, a Mithral Buckler +5, Dex Gloves +6, Amulet of Health +6, Headband/Cloak +6, Vest of Resistance +5... that's about 225,000gp worth of magic items to purchase.
copper_wyrmling 06-20-07, 06:56 AM	upgrade your +4 items to +6 items and your vest of resistanct to +5. That should clear your cash and keep you busy for a level... With the exception of the Cloak of Prettiness, they're no fun :P Sure, I could upgrade Az's amulet of health from +4 to +6, but it seems kinda pointless, since she's never died and never needed a delay-death (and in fact, this would be true even if she hadn't bought the +4 amulet) - paying 20k for 12 extra HP, +1 Fort save and +1 Concentration just seems like a waste of money. (For comparison, this is supposed to be the same value as +1 caster level from a ring of arcane might, and almost twice as valuable as 3x / day energy substitution on up-to-L6 spells. It's a lot of money to spend on something that doesn't noticeably help your character.) Similarly, blown saves have not been a big problem for her, and I object to paying 20k to "fix" a non-issue (sure, she took 80 damage from a blown ref save recently and that was a bit of a shock since she only had about 110 HP, but it didn't stop her from completing the first part of a two-action combo that ended the fight halfway through the first round). Other stat-boosters are worthless for her: she has no use for Str and Wis, her gloves of fortunate striking are taking up her Dex-gloves slot (grumble), and she only really wants Int for the skill points. Bracers of armor +8 would take her AC from 13 up to 21 (i.e. still "you hit" at APL 12+): it's a complete waste of cash. I wouldn't bother buying a +5 mithral buckler for the same reason: I would consider buying a standard mithral buckler and putting one of my otherwise-useless armor-enhancement favors on it (I'd have to go look and see what I've got), but that requires access. To put it another way: it seems wasteful to spend large amounts of cash on augmenting aspects of the character that are neither frequently used strengths nor frequently exposed weaknesses. I'm not complaining about access in LG generally: two of my three L10+ characters are at the stage of "Don't give me any more access, I don't want to have to make tough decisions". My dervish is light infantry (high mobility + damage, relatively low AC): he has lots of access that improves his melee damage and mobility and / or shores up frequently-relevant weaknesses (hit points, saving throws - he's normally in Close range for all the nasty stuff :( ) My cleric is a generalist: she has access that improves her spellcasting, her melee abilities, and her undead turning. Azrien is a primary offensive spellcaster (who goes through most mods without ever running out of temporary hit points or getting into melee range) - but has virtually no access that aids her in that role. It's just a little annoying, but I continue to trust that eventually, it will be corrected - my cleric got All The Access She'd Ever Dreamed About in her first two ARs after hitting L15, after all ;) I'll save my 30k so I can use it to buy that Adventure access orange ioun stone...
solbergb 06-20-07, 12:42 PM	For now upgrade the cloak of prettyness :) That will buy you about 4 AR's to find something nice with your 10k seed money. And you know..if your vest of resistance is only +2, you're skimping. Olivia will mock you till you upgrade it to +4 (it's only 12k). You can skip upgrading it to +5 till level 15 and she'll leave you alone :)
Timlagor 06-21-07, 04:28 PM	You could buy some pearls of power to lend to your poor cleric friends.
copper_wyrmling 06-21-07, 07:29 PM	And you know..if your vest of resistance is only +2, you're skimping. Olivia will mock you till you upgrade it to +4 (it's only 12k). You can skip upgrading it to +5 till level 15 and she'll leave you alone :) Oh come on, you're telling me Olivia won't mock Az anyway? :P She might not tease her about an inferior vest of resistance, but she'll find something ;) (I distinctly remember the discussion about Azrien's taste in boyfriends last time they played together... although the red scales are less obvious now and no longer grant a natural armor bonus.) You could buy some pearls of power to lend to your poor cleric friends. Heh, yes I could do that - and pearls are shiny. Of course, Az's "poor cleric friends" (all two of them) are rather richer than she is, due to crafting in one case and consistently playing up by silly amounts in another case (i.e. "My boyfriend's character is L14, so we'll play APL 12 and I'll bring my L5 cleric"). I also don't get to play with them often enough for buying pressies for them to be very worthwhile :( , although PoPs wouldn't be as bad as some other items, since I could also lend them out to wizards. Also: wow, thread derailment...
VicLA 06-24-07, 08:43 PM	At the risk of offending someone, I'd like to restart and refocus this thread. Can someone post a list, by level, of battlefield control spells? And any further thought about what feats or PrC to take? Thanks, -Vic
Lomiat 06-24-07, 10:49 PM	At the risk of offending someone, I'd like to restart and refocus this thread. Can someone post a list, by level, of battlefield control spells? And any further thought about what feats or PrC to take? Thanks, -Vic This is a partial list, all from the PHB: 1-Grease, Obscuring Mist, Summon Monster I, Enlarge Person (for the tactical fighter), Feather Fall (eventually) 2-Fog Cloud, Glitterdust, Summon Monster II, Web, See Invisibility (arguably), Gust of Wind 3-Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Summon Monster III, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Wind Wall, Invisibility Sphere, Major Image (sometimes), Fly, Haste, Water Breathing (sucks if you can't breathe on the battlefield) 4-Dimensional Anchor, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Dimension Door, Evard's Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Summon Monster IV, Ice Storm, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (offers SR and a save...), Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Hallucinatory Terrain, Illusory Wall, Mass Enlarge Person, Stoneshape 5-Summon Monster V, Wall of Stone, Wall of Force, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud And, from the Spell Compendium, Mass Fly is also 5th level and a key battlefield control spell for most wizards dedicated to that task. Looking at the list, I'd guess that a battlefield control wizard could do a pretty good job as a Conjurer, giving up Enchantment and Necromancy, and doubling as a Summoner with the feats: Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (conjuration), and Augment Summoning.
Lomiat 06-24-07, 10:51 PM	And, it's worth noting, that should a battlefield control wizard actually take Augment Summoning and the Spell Focus pre-req, that puts the wizard on track to take Spell Focus in another school (most likely evocation or transmutation) and then pick up Skill Focus (spellcraft) en route to Archmage.
Cardinal Teplin 06-25-07, 08:01 AM	Is archmage worth it for a battlefeild control mage? Does it really add anything useful compared to the cost?
Lomiat 06-25-07, 08:12 AM	Is archmage worth it for a battlefeild control mage? Does it really add anything useful compared to the cost? It adds a lot of versatility with shaping spells, changing energy types, increasing caster level, and turning people's counterspelled magic back at them.
Mommy was an Orc 06-25-07, 09:39 AM	Is archmage worth it for a battlefeild control mage? Does it really add anything useful compared to the cost? Unless you're converting a 11th+ level Wizard and/or retirement is 18th, I don't think it is worth it...
solbergb 06-25-07, 12:48 PM	I have to say that I don't consider spells that have no effect on a save (eg, glitterdust) to be battlefield control. They are debuffs, which often serve a similar purpose but aren't as reliable as battlefield control. Battlefield control generally does something to interfere with enemy offense or mobility 100% of the time. It often does something ELSE if the bad guy fails a save or grapple check or whatever, but even vs freedom of movement, solid fog blocks vision, and therefore charge lanes, targeted spells and stops AOO's past 5'. Spike stones is borderline - it does damage and causes enough saves that it will probably slow movement. My list is something like this. There may be others. Most of the good ones are on the wiz/sor list. These are in rough order of how useful they are. L1: entangle (druid) grease (balance check/flatfooted) silent image (wall or fog) obscuring mist enlarge person summon monster 1 summon nature ally 1 (druid) L2 web sculpted grease (much more effective than grease) fog cloud pyrotechnics (smoke) minor image (wall or fog) wall of gloom briarweb (druid) summon 2 SNA2 soften earth and stone (weak unless save is blown) L3 sleet storm stinking cloud major image (wall or fog) summon3 SNA3 spike growth (druid) L4 solid fog evards (half movement even if grapple is resisted) murderous mist (druid) wall of fire wall of ice ottiluke's sphere on a willing target in confined area ice storm (halves movement for a round) summon 4 SNA4 shadow conjuration mass enlarge person plant growth (druid) spike stones (druid) minor creation (make a door or something) L5 wall of force wall of thorns (druid) wall of stone wall of iron cloudkill fabricate (assuming enough wood is nearby) shadow evocation doomtide (cleric) cometfall? (in a small area anyway) summon 5 SNA5 major creation L6 freezing fog acid fog antimagic field (sorta) move earth blade barrier (cleric, weak, provides cover and thus blocks AOO's) summon 6 SNA6 L7 forcecage reverse gravity limited wish (to simulate other effects) greater shadow conjuration summon 7 SNA7 L8 prismatic wall (blocks vision/magic and 7 saves usually do something) ottiluke's resilient sphere on willing target in confined area incindiary cloud summon 8 sna 8
Lomiat 06-25-07, 06:38 PM	I have to say that I don't consider spells that have no effect on a save (eg, glitterdust) to be battlefield control. They are debuffs, which often serve a similar purpose but aren't as reliable as battlefield control. Battlefield control generally does something to interfere with enemy offense or mobility 100% of the time. It often does something ELSE if the bad guy fails a save or grapple check or whatever, but even vs freedom of movement, solid fog blocks vision, and therefore charge lanes, targeted spells and stops AOO's past 5'. Spike stones is borderline - it does damage and causes enough saves that it will probably slow movement. Glitterdust has an effect even on a failed save: It reveals invisible creatures to all party members who can't see the invisible.
solbergb 06-25-07, 06:48 PM	Glitterdust is a debuff that has a reliable effect even on a save passed (messes up ability to hide) It only behaves like battlefield control with the save is failed (and therefore the enemy moves at half speed, can't charge, can't use targeted spells at range, etc) That is what tips it into "Debuff' category. Others like this are slow, shadow binding and undeniable gravity. The effect on failed save impedes mobility or targeting, but it does nothing to the enemy's ability to move or target effects if they do save. One I forgot - Anticipate Teleport is firmly in the battlefield control category, as is dimensional lock. Hm...I also arbitrarily exclude spells with attack mechanics (eg, dimensional anchor, ray of enfeeblement) because the touch attack adds an element of uncertainty similar to a save and it's tough to call a single-target anything "battlefield control". The exception that illustrates the difference is disintegrate - it's "battlefield control" in that it removes barriers (force effects, walls, even the floor) - used that way, it is almost impossible to miss. The various "wind" spells that blow away fog effects are also a kind of battlefield control, but very specific. Wind wall or a sculpted gust of wind "just works" - against fog (or arrows in the former case).
Cardinal Teplin 06-28-07, 11:34 AM	Noone has any recommendations for feats then? I've trying to find some feats for my own battlefield control guy, and things like empower and metamagic focus (evocation) are starting to look tempting, simply because there doesn't seem to be anything else terribly worthwhile. Maybe imbue summon? Or spell-linked familiar?
Mommy was an Orc 06-28-07, 12:51 PM	Noone has any recommendations for feats then? I've trying to find some feats for my own battlefield control guy, and things like empower and metamagic focus (evocation) are starting to look tempting, simply because there doesn't seem to be anything else terribly worthwhile. Maybe imbue summon? Or spell-linked familiar? It depends on which spells you want to focus on - summonings, fogs, etc... Sculpt Spell and Transdimensional Spell can be extremely effective. Stop those spring attacking dread wraiths right in their tracks.
Cardinal Teplin 06-29-07, 07:33 AM	I have to say that I don't consider spells that have no effect on a save (eg, glitterdust) to be battlefield control. L2 briarweb (druid) Eh? What effect does briarweb have on a save? Entangle I can see, but why briarweb? H
solbergb 06-29-07, 09:49 AM	briarweb halves movement unless you have woodland stride it isn't very good battlefield control, but it does have an effect.
draxynnic 06-29-07, 10:37 AM	Trassin Kiranthar: "Azrien in the military? Nope, I don't see any problems with that at all. She'd work just fine as a point-and-shoot weapon. Welll... point, and RUN THE HECK AWAY. She tends to be quite effective at shooting herself. Just, whatever you do, don't forget the running the heck away part." Random Auszug Member: "Sir, you do realise that that could be interpreted as Azrien could be shooting herself with her own spells as well as shooting the enemy, don't you?" Trassin Kiranthar: "Yes, Rotter. I wouldn't put it past her. Do remember the running away part." Moving back to the topic: Be careful with combining Sculpt Spell with battlefield control spells. Most of them are "Effect" spells rather than "Area" spells (example: Acid Fog gives "Effect: Fog spreads in 20-ft. radius, 20 ft. high" cf Fireball's "Area: 20-ft. radius spread"), so one could read that Sculpt Spell doesn't work on them.
solbergb 06-29-07, 01:02 PM	Yeah. I "sculpt" my solid fog with gust of wind since that was pointed out to me. It had not come up yet, I just got the spell and I'm still conservative about my L5 spell slots. Sculpt is for evards, grease and And prestidigitation. Those make it worth the feat for my character. Whirling blade and fog spells can sometimes be sculpted, depending on the GM. Gust of wind usually can (Effect: Line shaped gust of wind) is generally seen as close enough to "Area: Line" (area spells are also effect spells) at least where I've played). Interestingly "spreads" are listed under "effect" and "area" so I find the argument that the fog spells are not intended to be area spells to be highly convincing. I don't find the argument that effect:line spells are not area spells to be very convincing, and unlike the fog spells, the effect-line spells all work mechanically identically to lightning bolt (they come from the caster, extend out to the end of range) since line has no definintion except under "area" but I don't argue with judges that say no.