Beguilder/Mage of the Arcane Order [Archive] - Wizards Community

Beguilder/Mage of the Arcane Order [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Puggle Halfwine
04-29-07, 12:57 AM Hey guys,

I'm playing around with this idea. A Beguiler who goes into Mage of the Arcane Order for a few levels so I can cast spells which are not on the Beguiler spell list (via the Spellpool). After four levels or so I'd switch back to Beguiler and fix up my skills. The build I had in mind was something like the following...

Grey Elf

Str: 6
Dex: 16
Con: 12
Int: 20
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

1st Beguiler
Skills: 6 + 5 = 11

Concentration
Diplomacy
Disable Device
Escape Artist
Gather Information
Listen
Open Lock
Search
Sense Motive
Spot
Tumble

Feats:
Arcane Preparation
2nd Beguiler
3rd Beguiler
Feats:
Cooperative Spell
4th Beguiler
5th Beguiler
Feats:
Silent Spell
6th Mage of the Arcane Order
Feats:
Craft Wonderous Item
7th Mage of the Arcane Order
8th Mage of the Arcane Order
9th Mage of the Arcane Order
Feats:
Retrubutive Spell
10th+etc... Beguiler
bitznarf
04-29-07, 02:38 AM I wouldn't bother with Open Lock, you can cast knock.
Puggle Halfwine
04-29-07, 05:05 AM Good point...
TWG_Prometheus
04-29-07, 08:15 AM I'm not seeing anything that explicitly disallows it, but I'd count on a lot of table variation in regard to whether you could cast any borrowed spells that are not on your spell list. (Unless there's a FAQ entry or something similar I'm not aware of.) There's no language in the Spellpool description that allows it either. There's not even anything to help a specialist Wizard overcome their school prohibitions.

A method of increasing a Beguiler's spell selection that would see less table variation would be Arcane Disciple.
Lupo
04-29-07, 09:33 AM I'm not seeing anything that explicitly disallows it, but I'd count on a lot of table variation in regard to whether you could cast any borrowed spells that are not on your spell list. (Unless there's a FAQ entry or something similar I'm not aware of.) There's no language in the Spellpool description that allows it either. There's not even anything to help a specialist Wizard overcome their school prohibitions.

A method of increasing a Beguiler's spell selection that would see less table variation would be Arcane Disciple.

a quick check of the wording for spellpool brought nothing and the FAQ is also silent on the spellpool.:confused: anyone with any clarification anywhere??:confused:

the problem is, when one uses the spellpool, the spell appears in a prior unused slot and can be cast the next round - the wording is a little vague but it seems that spontaneous casters are counted as having all spell slots "unused" - so the spell is casted normally like any other spell and can only be cast if on the caster's spelllist - at least to my interpretation although i admit it can be interpreted quite differently;).

specialists are prohibited from using even scrolls or wands with spells of their banned schools so i wouldn't let them cast banned spells from the spellpool either - this would be much cheaper than the option to use limited wish or wish to duplicate a spell from a banned school.:rolleyes:

ciao

martin m.

<edit> i even checked the general rpga d&d board, there as well is no definite answer to the class and the spellpool's mechanics and limitations . . . . it would be nice to have the FAQ cover this </edit>
Puggle Halfwine
04-29-07, 11:13 AM Hmm- interesting question. Wish there'd be some kind of official answer to this, rather than the staple... "Expect table variation"...
Timlagor
04-29-07, 02:57 PM Just so you knw there is at least one GM (me) who does not allow people to cast spells they could not otherwise cast simply because they can get them into theirheads through the Spellpool.

I'd let you take it from the spellpool; you just wouldn't know how to cast it.

I don't think there's any ambiguity but clearly there are people who think it would work.
UMiskatonic
04-30-07, 12:12 AM I -would- let it work, every time.

The one exception would be banned spells. Under no circumstances is anyone at my table casting -alter self- for example.
Reznor00
05-05-07, 08:49 PM I don't think to many DMs would/should allow it and here is why:

1) To qualify for Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane pg. 48) you must be able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells

2) PHB (177-179) Preparing Wizards Spells says that only wizards prepare, and that bards and sorcerers cast arcane spells, but they don't have spellbooks and they don't prepare their spells (top of page 179)

3) PHB 2 (pg 6-7) Beguiler's basically cast spells on the beguiler spells list and those spells are all considered known spells. It basically says a beguiler needs not prepare spells in advance at one point. This is just bad wording in my opinion, it saw beguilers don't prepare spells in advance. Since it does say Essentially, your spells list is your spells know list. Even if you look it outside the bad wording, how does a Beguiler prepare spells without a spellbook, so if one is trying to say they can prepare because it doesn't say they can I'd allow a Beguiler to prepare any spell on there spell list it so long as it came from there spellbook...which really is not possible :-)

I do agree they need to maybe address the issue. You might see it in the next Dispel Confusion article. However it's a pretty narrow topic so it might never get addressed.

~MB
bitznarf
05-05-07, 08:56 PM This is why the build has the feat 'Arcane Preperation'.
Reznor00
05-06-07, 12:03 AM :) Yeah I missed that the first time

Yeah I missed that. Still not sure that would work quite like it's wanted. Arcane Preparation allows you to prepare spells with slots, it doesn't allow you to leave slots unfilled. However it could be seen that the Spellbook 1 power a character gets when he takes his first level of Mage of the Arcane Order when it says 'Wizards preparing spells for the day decide at that time whether to leave some spell slots open."

This would work out good for a Beguiler since he could leave those slots open and use spells on his list if he wanted to or he could access the spellpool with them. I'm thinking with that feat Arcane Preparation within the rules this would probably be allowed.....interesting....thoughts?

~MB
Alpha_Nerd
05-06-07, 12:17 AM I remember reading something somewhere that every slot for a spontaneous caster is considered an "unfilled slot" as far as preperation is concerned.
bitznarf
05-06-07, 02:01 AM Arcane Preparation allows you to prepare spells with slots, it doesn't allow you to leave slots unfilled.
Why not? "Each day, you can use one or more of your spell slots to prepare spells..." That seems pretty wild open to me.
magebeast
05-06-07, 05:46 PM Why not? "Each day, you can use one or more of your spell slots to prepare spells..." That seems pretty wild open to me.

Because of the part you didn't bold. It says specifically to prepare spells. An open slot is not actually a spell.

In a home game I'd rule you can prepare open slots, but the RAW doesn't really seem to work that way.
Shieldhart91
05-06-07, 07:25 PM A quick point to bring up: put skill points up until Level 4. When you actually have the spell knock, then retrain and put all of your ranks into something slightly more useful. Kay?
bitznarf
05-06-07, 10:43 PM Because of the part you didn't bold. It says specifically to prepare spells. An open slot is not actually a spell.
Um.. care to elaborate? This doesn't make any sense to me. Of course a open slot is not actually a spell. How does this have any impact on the discussion?
In a home game I'd rule you can prepare open slots, but the RAW doesn't really seem to work that way.
I recommend you go read the magic chapter again. Or perhaps the part that I quoted. A beguiler has spell slots. With Arcane Preparation the PC "can use one or more of [his] spell slots to prepare spells" Thus a beguiler with Arcane Prep could one of his slots. Or 2 of his slots. Or 3 of his slots. Etc. Any slots that he has not prepared a spell in can be used with the spellpool ability. Or could be used to prepare spells later in the day, the same as a wizard.
magebeast
05-06-07, 11:00 PM Um.. care to elaborate? This doesn't make any sense to me. Of course a open slot is not actually a spell. How does this have any impact on the discussion?

I recommend you go read the magic chapter again. Or perhaps the part that I quoted. A beguiler has spell slots. With Arcane Preparation the PC "can use one or more of [his] spell slots to prepare spells" Thus a beguiler with Arcane Prep could one of his slots. Or 2 of his slots. Or 3 of his slots. Etc. Any slots that he has not prepared a spell in can be used with the spellpool ability. Or could be used to prepare spells later in the day, the same as a wizard.

That's just the thing. It doesn't let you "prepare spells as a wizard." It lets you "use one or more of [your] spell slots to prepare spells" - an empty slot is arguably not a spell.

That caveat understood, in my opinion all of a spontaneous caster's slots are unprepared, therefore any of the spontaneous slots will do for spellpool.
bitznarf
05-06-07, 11:18 PM That's just the thing. It doesn't let you "prepare spells as a wizard." It lets you "use one or more of [your] spell slots to prepare spells" - an empty slot is arguably not a spell.
Um... what does this have to do with the debate? Once again, of course an empty slot is not a spell. Are you saying that a in order to use the spell pool you need to 'prepare an empty slot' :confused: You don't 'prepare empty slots', you quite specifically don't prepare empty slots. If you have prepared a spell in them, they are not empty.
That caveat understood, in my opinion all of a spontaneous caster's slots are unprepared, therefore any of the spontaneous slots will do for spellpool.
There is no distinction made between types of spell slots. They are all just 'spell slots'. The difference comes in how they are used. A spontaneous caster chooses a spell on the spot. A prepared caster chooses among those prepared earlier that day (or whenever). A spontaneous caster with Arcane Preparation chooses from either the spells he prepared earlier or from his spells known list and any open slots he has left himself.
magebeast
05-07-07, 01:50 AM Um... what does this have to do with the debate? Once again, of course an empty slot is not a spell. Are you saying that a in order to use the spell pool you need to 'prepare an empty slot' :confused: You don't 'prepare empty slots', you quite specifically don't prepare empty slots. If you have prepared a spell in them, they are not empty.

There is no distinction made between types of spell slots. They are all just 'spell slots'. The difference comes in how they are used. A spontaneous caster chooses a spell on the spot. A prepared caster chooses among those prepared earlier that day (or whenever). A spontaneous caster with Arcane Preparation chooses from either the spells he prepared earlier or from his spells known list and any open slots he has left himself.

Sorry, I was conflating this discussion with a discussion I had with someone else about MotAO. We got stuck for a bit on the "needing empty slots" for spellpool to work and the fact that prep requires you to actually prep a specific spell in a slot before we stumbled on the fact that spontaneous casters actually have all unprepped slots unless you specifically use arcane prep.
bitznarf
05-07-07, 02:02 AM Sorry, I was conflating this discussion with a discussion I had with someone else about MotAO. We got stuck for a bit on the "needing empty slots" for spellpool to work and the fact that prep requires you to actually prep a specific spell in a slot before we stumbled on the fact that spontaneous casters actually have all unprepped slots unless you specifically use arcane prep.
Thats exactly it :)
Sieylianna
05-07-07, 07:48 AM Allow me to point out that Complete Arcane specifically identifies MotAO as suitable for wizards, but not sorcerers. (the table in the front of the chapter).

Ed
bitznarf
05-07-07, 09:04 AM Thats what Arcane Preperation is for. Note that it is simply a 'best for' listing, not a 'can only be taken by' list.
Alpha_Nerd
05-07-07, 01:09 PM The fact that Arcane Prep lets you use Pearls of Power just makes me feel all tingly inside.
ThaiGQ
05-08-07, 12:35 PM The fact that Arcane Prep lets you use Pearls of Power just makes me feel all tingly inside.

Now that's a scary thought...A Sorcerer with Pearls of Power! :eek:
bitznarf
05-08-07, 12:58 PM There have been Memento's Magika (spelling?) around for a while. They just cost 1.5 times as much and are harder to find access to.
Timlagor
05-12-07, 11:40 PM I -would- let it work, every time.

The one exception would be banned spells. Under no circumstances is anyone at my table casting -alter self- for example.

How do you explain allowing someone to cast a spell that isn't on their spell list?
Puggle Halfwine
05-12-07, 11:48 PM Because that's what the prestige class explicitly allows. To swap slots prepared as 'blank' to be filled with any sorcerer/wizard spell.
Timlagor
05-14-07, 06:26 AM It does indeed allow you to swap slots to those spells.

Casting is an entirely separate process from preparing however and the PrC makes no mention of allowing it for spells you can't otherwise cast.
magebeast
05-15-07, 01:13 AM It does indeed allow you to swap slots to those spells.

Casting is an entirely separate process from preparing however and the PrC makes no mention of allowing it for spells you can't otherwise cast.

Can you point me to the rule that disallows you from casting spells not on your list?

I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, I'm just saying I can't find it.
Timlagor
05-15-07, 09:09 AM "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list."

You need an ability to grant you the ability to cast a spell.
The ability you have does not apply to spells that aren't on your list.

In this case:
"A beguiler casts arcane spells which are drawn from the Beguiler spell list on page 11"

In fact: "A spellcaster can call only for a spell of a level that he could normally cast" -if you can't usually cast a spell at all then it is of a level that you can't normally cast so you can't actually call the spell in teh first place.

There is some room inference required and one might argue that "..and can be used immediately" grants you the necessary ability to cast it but it's not something I'd allow and I would adivse you not to build a character around it. (though at least you wouldn't lose your spell progression altogether at the 'bad' tables)
Lupo
05-15-07, 09:15 AM Can you point me to the rule that disallows you from casting spells not on your list?

I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, I'm just saying I can't find it.

just here:

PHB p. 169: Some spellcasters select their spells from a limited list of spells known, while others have access to a wide variety of options.

and

PHB II p. 6: Spells: A beguiler casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the beguiler spell list on page 11. <snip> Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list. You also have the option of adding to your existing spell list through your advanced learning class feature.

as spells drawn from the spellpool must be casted normally by the character, a beguiler would be unable to cast any spell NOT on his class list.

unless some FAQ or ERRATA states that the spellpool automatically adds all sorcerer/wizard spells to a class spell list, i wouldn't allow this and wouldn't advice anyone to build a character founded on this.

ciao

martin m.
magebeast
05-15-07, 02:01 PM In fact: "A spellcaster can call only for a spell of a level that he could normally cast" -if you can't usually cast a spell at all then it is of a level that you can't normally cast so you can't actually call the spell in teh first place.

:confused: All that says is you can't cast a level of spells you wouldn't normally be able to anyway. So if you're limited to 2nd level spells, spellpool 1 doesn't let you cast 3rd level spells.

To me, none of those say that you can't cast spells on that aren't on your spell list, you're just only normally able to draw upon your spell list for spells known. Grey area, I know, so I suppose it's an ETV sort of thing.
Timlagor
05-18-07, 06:10 AM :confused: All that says is you can't cast a level of spells you wouldn't normally be able to anyway. So if you're limited to 2nd level spells, spellpool 1 doesn't let you cast 3rd level spells.

Would you claim that 5 levels of cleric would let such a character cast 3rd level Wizard spells from the spellpool?

You keep your spell lists separate. In this case you can't cast a Wizard non-Beguiler spell of that level (since you have no levels of Wizard and Beguiler doesn't apply at all).
ThaiGQ
05-18-07, 06:54 AM Would you claim that 5 levels of cleric would let such a character cast 3rd level Wizard spells from the spellpool?

You keep your spell lists separate. In this case you can't cast a Wizard non-Beguiler spell of that level (since you have no levels of Wizard and Beguiler doesn't apply at all).

Except that you don't qualify for the PrC unless you can prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells so 5 levels of Cleric would be irrelevant.
Timlagor
05-18-07, 01:32 PM Except that you don't qualify for the PrC unless you can prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells so 5 levels of Cleric would be irrelevant.

Exactly!
And being able to cast 3rd level Beguiler spells is exactly as irrelevant.
TWG_Prometheus
05-18-07, 01:49 PM :confused: All that says is you can't cast a level of spells you wouldn't normally be able to anyway. So if you're limited to 2nd level spells, spellpool 1 doesn't let you cast 3rd level spells.

To me, none of those say that you can't cast spells on that aren't on your spell list, you're just only normally able to draw upon your spell list for spells known. Grey area, I know, so I suppose it's an ETV sort of thing.

Do you see anything that DOES allow you to cast spells that aren't on your spell list? It's a major and fairly fundamental restriction for casting spells in D&D. Silence from the PrC rules on the issue of such a rule shouldn't allow anyone to break it.
ThaiGQ
05-19-07, 05:46 AM Exactly!
And being able to cast 3rd level Beguiler spells is exactly as irrelevant.

But that's not necessarily true as a Beguiler DOES cast arcane spells and would be able to qualify for the PrC and thus gain access to the spell pool...
Mommy was an Orc
05-19-07, 08:50 AM But that's not necessarily true as a Beguiler DOES cast arcane spells and would be able to qualify for the PrC and thus gain access to the spell pool...

Being able to cast arcane spells doesn't grant the ability to cast Fireball unless it is on your list. A Beguiler can't normally read a scroll of Fireball that's right in front of him, why would he be able to cast it as a spell, even if it were in his head?
JamesMaissen
05-20-07, 10:15 AM Being able to cast arcane spells doesn't grant the ability to cast Fireball unless it is on your list. A Beguiler can't normally read a scroll of Fireball that's right in front of him, why would he be able to cast it as a spell, even if it were in his head?

Because the spellpool makes it immediately available for use?

It's a very weird stretch to try to disallow as you'd think they would mention this restriction in regards to bards taking this PrC and as how the spellpool is specifically from the wizard/sorcerer list rather than the character's spell list.

-James
Timlagor
05-20-07, 05:52 PM It's clearly designed by for Wizards.
magebeast
05-21-07, 02:37 AM It's clearly designed by for Wizards.

Clearly to you.
ThaiGQ
05-21-07, 03:55 AM Clearly to you.

LOL

Seems like that's how most people interpret it though...

Personally, I think that if you're willing to take levels of the PrC, I'd let you cast any open arcane spell from the Spellpool. How does "repaying" the spell debt work in LG though? Would it have to be done in-game?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Puggle Halfwine 04-29-07, 12:57 AM	Hey guys, I'm playing around with this idea. A Beguiler who goes into Mage of the Arcane Order for a few levels so I can cast spells which are not on the Beguiler spell list (via the Spellpool). After four levels or so I'd switch back to Beguiler and fix up my skills. The build I had in mind was something like the following... Grey Elf Str: 6 Dex: 16 Con: 12 Int: 20 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 1st Beguiler Skills: 6 + 5 = 11 Concentration Diplomacy Disable Device Escape Artist Gather Information Listen Open Lock Search Sense Motive Spot Tumble Feats: Arcane Preparation 2nd Beguiler 3rd Beguiler Feats: Cooperative Spell 4th Beguiler 5th Beguiler Feats: Silent Spell 6th Mage of the Arcane Order Feats: Craft Wonderous Item 7th Mage of the Arcane Order 8th Mage of the Arcane Order 9th Mage of the Arcane Order Feats: Retrubutive Spell 10th+etc... Beguiler
bitznarf 04-29-07, 02:38 AM	I wouldn't bother with Open Lock, you can cast knock.
Puggle Halfwine 04-29-07, 05:05 AM	Good point...
TWG_Prometheus 04-29-07, 08:15 AM	I'm not seeing anything that explicitly disallows it, but I'd count on a lot of table variation in regard to whether you could cast any borrowed spells that are not on your spell list. (Unless there's a FAQ entry or something similar I'm not aware of.) There's no language in the Spellpool description that allows it either. There's not even anything to help a specialist Wizard overcome their school prohibitions. A method of increasing a Beguiler's spell selection that would see less table variation would be Arcane Disciple.
Lupo 04-29-07, 09:33 AM	I'm not seeing anything that explicitly disallows it, but I'd count on a lot of table variation in regard to whether you could cast any borrowed spells that are not on your spell list. (Unless there's a FAQ entry or something similar I'm not aware of.) There's no language in the Spellpool description that allows it either. There's not even anything to help a specialist Wizard overcome their school prohibitions. A method of increasing a Beguiler's spell selection that would see less table variation would be Arcane Disciple. a quick check of the wording for spellpool brought nothing and the FAQ is also silent on the spellpool.:confused: anyone with any clarification anywhere??:confused: the problem is, when one uses the spellpool, the spell appears in a prior unused slot and can be cast the next round - the wording is a little vague but it seems that spontaneous casters are counted as having all spell slots "unused" - so the spell is casted normally like any other spell and can only be cast if on the caster's spelllist - at least to my interpretation although i admit it can be interpreted quite differently;). specialists are prohibited from using even scrolls or wands with spells of their banned schools so i wouldn't let them cast banned spells from the spellpool either - this would be much cheaper than the option to use limited wish or wish to duplicate a spell from a banned school.:rolleyes: ciao martin m. <edit> i even checked the general rpga d&d board, there as well is no definite answer to the class and the spellpool's mechanics and limitations . . . . it would be nice to have the FAQ cover this </edit>
Puggle Halfwine 04-29-07, 11:13 AM	Hmm- interesting question. Wish there'd be some kind of official answer to this, rather than the staple... "Expect table variation"...
Timlagor 04-29-07, 02:57 PM	Just so you knw there is at least one GM (me) who does not allow people to cast spells they could not otherwise cast simply because they can get them into theirheads through the Spellpool. I'd let you take it from the spellpool; you just wouldn't know how to cast it. I don't think there's any ambiguity but clearly there are people who think it would work.
UMiskatonic 04-30-07, 12:12 AM	I -would- let it work, every time. The one exception would be banned spells. Under no circumstances is anyone at my table casting -alter self- for example.
Reznor00 05-05-07, 08:49 PM	I don't think to many DMs would/should allow it and here is why: 1) To qualify for Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane pg. 48) you must be able to prepare and cast 2nd-level arcane spells 2) PHB (177-179) Preparing Wizards Spells says that only wizards prepare, and that bards and sorcerers cast arcane spells, but they don't have spellbooks and they don't prepare their spells (top of page 179) 3) PHB 2 (pg 6-7) Beguiler's basically cast spells on the beguiler spells list and those spells are all considered known spells. It basically says a beguiler needs not prepare spells in advance at one point. This is just bad wording in my opinion, it saw beguilers don't prepare spells in advance. Since it does say Essentially, your spells list is your spells know list. Even if you look it outside the bad wording, how does a Beguiler prepare spells without a spellbook, so if one is trying to say they can prepare because it doesn't say they can I'd allow a Beguiler to prepare any spell on there spell list it so long as it came from there spellbook...which really is not possible :-) I do agree they need to maybe address the issue. You might see it in the next Dispel Confusion article. However it's a pretty narrow topic so it might never get addressed. ~MB
bitznarf 05-05-07, 08:56 PM	This is why the build has the feat 'Arcane Preperation'.
Reznor00 05-06-07, 12:03 AM	:) Yeah I missed that the first time Yeah I missed that. Still not sure that would work quite like it's wanted. Arcane Preparation allows you to prepare spells with slots, it doesn't allow you to leave slots unfilled. However it could be seen that the Spellbook 1 power a character gets when he takes his first level of Mage of the Arcane Order when it says 'Wizards preparing spells for the day decide at that time whether to leave some spell slots open." This would work out good for a Beguiler since he could leave those slots open and use spells on his list if he wanted to or he could access the spellpool with them. I'm thinking with that feat Arcane Preparation within the rules this would probably be allowed.....interesting....thoughts? ~MB
Alpha_Nerd 05-06-07, 12:17 AM	I remember reading something somewhere that every slot for a spontaneous caster is considered an "unfilled slot" as far as preperation is concerned.
bitznarf 05-06-07, 02:01 AM	Arcane Preparation allows you to prepare spells with slots, it doesn't allow you to leave slots unfilled. Why not? "Each day, you can use one or more of your spell slots to prepare spells..." That seems pretty wild open to me.
magebeast 05-06-07, 05:46 PM	Why not? "Each day, you can use one or more of your spell slots to prepare spells..." That seems pretty wild open to me. Because of the part you didn't bold. It says specifically to prepare spells. An open slot is not actually a spell. In a home game I'd rule you can prepare open slots, but the RAW doesn't really seem to work that way.
Shieldhart91 05-06-07, 07:25 PM	A quick point to bring up: put skill points up until Level 4. When you actually have the spell knock, then retrain and put all of your ranks into something slightly more useful. Kay?
bitznarf 05-06-07, 10:43 PM	Because of the part you didn't bold. It says specifically to prepare spells. An open slot is not actually a spell. Um.. care to elaborate? This doesn't make any sense to me. Of course a open slot is not actually a spell. How does this have any impact on the discussion? In a home game I'd rule you can prepare open slots, but the RAW doesn't really seem to work that way. I recommend you go read the magic chapter again. Or perhaps the part that I quoted. A beguiler has spell slots. With Arcane Preparation the PC "can use one or more of [his] spell slots to prepare spells" Thus a beguiler with Arcane Prep could one of his slots. Or 2 of his slots. Or 3 of his slots. Etc. Any slots that he has not prepared a spell in can be used with the spellpool ability. Or could be used to prepare spells later in the day, the same as a wizard.
magebeast 05-06-07, 11:00 PM	Um.. care to elaborate? This doesn't make any sense to me. Of course a open slot is not actually a spell. How does this have any impact on the discussion? I recommend you go read the magic chapter again. Or perhaps the part that I quoted. A beguiler has spell slots. With Arcane Preparation the PC "can use one or more of [his] spell slots to prepare spells" Thus a beguiler with Arcane Prep could one of his slots. Or 2 of his slots. Or 3 of his slots. Etc. Any slots that he has not prepared a spell in can be used with the spellpool ability. Or could be used to prepare spells later in the day, the same as a wizard. That's just the thing. It doesn't let you "prepare spells as a wizard." It lets you "use one or more of [your] spell slots to prepare spells" - an empty slot is arguably not a spell. That caveat understood, in my opinion all of a spontaneous caster's slots are unprepared, therefore any of the spontaneous slots will do for spellpool.
bitznarf 05-06-07, 11:18 PM	That's just the thing. It doesn't let you "prepare spells as a wizard." It lets you "use one or more of [your] spell slots to prepare spells" - an empty slot is arguably not a spell. Um... what does this have to do with the debate? Once again, of course an empty slot is not a spell. Are you saying that a in order to use the spell pool you need to 'prepare an empty slot' :confused: You don't 'prepare empty slots', you quite specifically don't prepare empty slots. If you have prepared a spell in them, they are not empty. That caveat understood, in my opinion all of a spontaneous caster's slots are unprepared, therefore any of the spontaneous slots will do for spellpool. There is no distinction made between types of spell slots. They are all just 'spell slots'. The difference comes in how they are used. A spontaneous caster chooses a spell on the spot. A prepared caster chooses among those prepared earlier that day (or whenever). A spontaneous caster with Arcane Preparation chooses from either the spells he prepared earlier or from his spells known list and any open slots he has left himself.
magebeast 05-07-07, 01:50 AM	Um... what does this have to do with the debate? Once again, of course an empty slot is not a spell. Are you saying that a in order to use the spell pool you need to 'prepare an empty slot' :confused: You don't 'prepare empty slots', you quite specifically don't prepare empty slots. If you have prepared a spell in them, they are not empty. There is no distinction made between types of spell slots. They are all just 'spell slots'. The difference comes in how they are used. A spontaneous caster chooses a spell on the spot. A prepared caster chooses among those prepared earlier that day (or whenever). A spontaneous caster with Arcane Preparation chooses from either the spells he prepared earlier or from his spells known list and any open slots he has left himself. Sorry, I was conflating this discussion with a discussion I had with someone else about MotAO. We got stuck for a bit on the "needing empty slots" for spellpool to work and the fact that prep requires you to actually prep a specific spell in a slot before we stumbled on the fact that spontaneous casters actually have all unprepped slots unless you specifically use arcane prep.
bitznarf 05-07-07, 02:02 AM	Sorry, I was conflating this discussion with a discussion I had with someone else about MotAO. We got stuck for a bit on the "needing empty slots" for spellpool to work and the fact that prep requires you to actually prep a specific spell in a slot before we stumbled on the fact that spontaneous casters actually have all unprepped slots unless you specifically use arcane prep. Thats exactly it :)
Sieylianna 05-07-07, 07:48 AM	Allow me to point out that Complete Arcane specifically identifies MotAO as suitable for wizards, but not sorcerers. (the table in the front of the chapter). Ed
bitznarf 05-07-07, 09:04 AM	Thats what Arcane Preperation is for. Note that it is simply a 'best for' listing, not a 'can only be taken by' list.
Alpha_Nerd 05-07-07, 01:09 PM	The fact that Arcane Prep lets you use Pearls of Power just makes me feel all tingly inside.
ThaiGQ 05-08-07, 12:35 PM	The fact that Arcane Prep lets you use Pearls of Power just makes me feel all tingly inside. Now that's a scary thought...A Sorcerer with Pearls of Power! :eek:
bitznarf 05-08-07, 12:58 PM	There have been Memento's Magika (spelling?) around for a while. They just cost 1.5 times as much and are harder to find access to.
Timlagor 05-12-07, 11:40 PM	I -would- let it work, every time. The one exception would be banned spells. Under no circumstances is anyone at my table casting -alter self- for example. How do you explain allowing someone to cast a spell that isn't on their spell list?
Puggle Halfwine 05-12-07, 11:48 PM	Because that's what the prestige class explicitly allows. To swap slots prepared as 'blank' to be filled with any sorcerer/wizard spell.
Timlagor 05-14-07, 06:26 AM	It does indeed allow you to swap slots to those spells. Casting is an entirely separate process from preparing however and the PrC makes no mention of allowing it for spells you can't otherwise cast.
magebeast 05-15-07, 01:13 AM	It does indeed allow you to swap slots to those spells. Casting is an entirely separate process from preparing however and the PrC makes no mention of allowing it for spells you can't otherwise cast. Can you point me to the rule that disallows you from casting spells not on your list? I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, I'm just saying I can't find it.
Timlagor 05-15-07, 09:09 AM	"A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list." You need an ability to grant you the ability to cast a spell. The ability you have does not apply to spells that aren't on your list. In this case: "A beguiler casts arcane spells which are drawn from the Beguiler spell list on page 11" In fact: "A spellcaster can call only for a spell of a level that he could normally cast" -if you can't usually cast a spell at all then it is of a level that you can't normally cast so you can't actually call the spell in teh first place. There is some room inference required and one might argue that "..and can be used immediately" grants you the necessary ability to cast it but it's not something I'd allow and I would adivse you not to build a character around it. (though at least you wouldn't lose your spell progression altogether at the 'bad' tables)
Lupo 05-15-07, 09:15 AM	Can you point me to the rule that disallows you from casting spells not on your list? I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, I'm just saying I can't find it. just here: PHB p. 169: Some spellcasters select their spells from a limited list of spells known, while others have access to a wide variety of options. and PHB II p. 6: Spells: A beguiler casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the beguiler spell list on page 11. <snip> Essentially, your spell list is the same as your spells known list. You also have the option of adding to your existing spell list through your advanced learning class feature. as spells drawn from the spellpool must be casted normally by the character, a beguiler would be unable to cast any spell NOT on his class list. unless some FAQ or ERRATA states that the spellpool automatically adds all sorcerer/wizard spells to a class spell list, i wouldn't allow this and wouldn't advice anyone to build a character founded on this. ciao martin m.
magebeast 05-15-07, 02:01 PM	In fact: "A spellcaster can call only for a spell of a level that he could normally cast" -if you can't usually cast a spell at all then it is of a level that you can't normally cast so you can't actually call the spell in teh first place. :confused: All that says is you can't cast a level of spells you wouldn't normally be able to anyway. So if you're limited to 2nd level spells, spellpool 1 doesn't let you cast 3rd level spells. To me, none of those say that you can't cast spells on that aren't on your spell list, you're just only normally able to draw upon your spell list for spells known. Grey area, I know, so I suppose it's an ETV sort of thing.
Timlagor 05-18-07, 06:10 AM	:confused: All that says is you can't cast a level of spells you wouldn't normally be able to anyway. So if you're limited to 2nd level spells, spellpool 1 doesn't let you cast 3rd level spells. Would you claim that 5 levels of cleric would let such a character cast 3rd level Wizard spells from the spellpool? You keep your spell lists separate. In this case you can't cast a Wizard non-Beguiler spell of that level (since you have no levels of Wizard and Beguiler doesn't apply at all).
ThaiGQ 05-18-07, 06:54 AM	Would you claim that 5 levels of cleric would let such a character cast 3rd level Wizard spells from the spellpool? You keep your spell lists separate. In this case you can't cast a Wizard non-Beguiler spell of that level (since you have no levels of Wizard and Beguiler doesn't apply at all). Except that you don't qualify for the PrC unless you can prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells so 5 levels of Cleric would be irrelevant.
Timlagor 05-18-07, 01:32 PM	Except that you don't qualify for the PrC unless you can prepare and cast 2nd level arcane spells so 5 levels of Cleric would be irrelevant. Exactly! And being able to cast 3rd level Beguiler spells is exactly as irrelevant.
TWG_Prometheus 05-18-07, 01:49 PM	:confused: All that says is you can't cast a level of spells you wouldn't normally be able to anyway. So if you're limited to 2nd level spells, spellpool 1 doesn't let you cast 3rd level spells. To me, none of those say that you can't cast spells on that aren't on your spell list, you're just only normally able to draw upon your spell list for spells known. Grey area, I know, so I suppose it's an ETV sort of thing. Do you see anything that DOES allow you to cast spells that aren't on your spell list? It's a major and fairly fundamental restriction for casting spells in D&D. Silence from the PrC rules on the issue of such a rule shouldn't allow anyone to break it.
ThaiGQ 05-19-07, 05:46 AM	Exactly! And being able to cast 3rd level Beguiler spells is exactly as irrelevant. But that's not necessarily true as a Beguiler DOES cast arcane spells and would be able to qualify for the PrC and thus gain access to the spell pool...
Mommy was an Orc 05-19-07, 08:50 AM	But that's not necessarily true as a Beguiler DOES cast arcane spells and would be able to qualify for the PrC and thus gain access to the spell pool... Being able to cast arcane spells doesn't grant the ability to cast Fireball unless it is on your list. A Beguiler can't normally read a scroll of Fireball that's right in front of him, why would he be able to cast it as a spell, even if it were in his head?
JamesMaissen 05-20-07, 10:15 AM	Being able to cast arcane spells doesn't grant the ability to cast Fireball unless it is on your list. A Beguiler can't normally read a scroll of Fireball that's right in front of him, why would he be able to cast it as a spell, even if it were in his head? Because the spellpool makes it immediately available for use? It's a very weird stretch to try to disallow as you'd think they would mention this restriction in regards to bards taking this PrC and as how the spellpool is specifically from the wizard/sorcerer list rather than the character's spell list. -James
Timlagor 05-20-07, 05:52 PM	It's clearly designed by for Wizards.
magebeast 05-21-07, 02:37 AM	It's clearly designed by for Wizards. Clearly to you.
ThaiGQ 05-21-07, 03:55 AM	Clearly to you. LOL Seems like that's how most people interpret it though... Personally, I think that if you're willing to take levels of the PrC, I'd let you cast any open arcane spell from the Spellpool. How does "repaying" the spell debt work in LG though? Would it have to be done in-game?