Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bitznarf 02-28-07, 05:25 PM	The first spot I saw this concept was here: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/lgchardiscussion/message/18691 and I'm wondering what people think of this twist on it: Gnome STR 8 DEX 14 CON 16 INT 16 (All stat bumps here) WIS 8 CHA 12 (feats listed below) 1: Beguiler 1 : Armored Mage, Trapfinding 2: Beguiler 2 : Cloaked Casting (DC+1), Surprise Casting 3: Beguiler 3 : Advanced Learning (?) 4: Beguiler 4 : 5: Beguiler 5 : Silent Spell 6: Beguiler 6 : Surprise Casting (Move Action) 7: Mindbender 1: Telepathy 8: Beguiler 7: Advanced Learning (spell for Shadowcraft Mage) 9: Shadowcraft Mage 1: Cloak of Shadow 10: Shadowcraft Mage 2: Silent Illusion 11: Shadowcraft Mage 3: Shadow Illusion 12: Fatespinner 1: Spin Fate 13: Fatespinner 2: Fikle Finger of Fate 14: Fatespinner 3: Forget the name (Spin checks) 15: Fatespinner 4: Deny Fate, Something else I can't recall off hand what the names of the special abilities of Fatespinner are, but I'm sure a lot of folks here do know what they are. I dropped Shadowcraft Mage 4 and 5 in favor of Fatespinner 3 and 4 for 1 main reason. IIRC beguiler doesn't have any spells that 'powerful shadow magic' or w/e its called applies (shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, and greater versions), thus the 5th level of ScM was not useful. This leaves us with ScM 4 and Fs 3, and I would think that Deny Fate is worth more then automatically extending illusion spells for free. This puts us at ScM 3 and Fs 4 as in the above build. Not sure what feats to take, other then Spell Focus (Illusion), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) and Metamagic Spell Focus (Illusion). I'm looking at Rapid Metamagic, as well as perhaps Steady Concentration. Any thoughts on other feats to take? (or anything else for that matter)
copper_wyrmling 02-28-07, 08:11 PM	I can't recall off hand what the names of the special abilities of Fatespinner are, but I'm sure a lot of folks here do know what they are. I dropped Shadowcraft Mage 4 and 5 in favor of Fatespinner 3 and 4 for 1 main reason. IIRC beguiler doesn't have any spells that 'powerful shadow magic' or w/e its called applies (shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, and greater versions), thus the 5th level of ScM was not useful. Yes, but you can use the Shadow Illusion ability of shadowcraft mage to make figment spells act like shadow conjuration / evocation, only better. The entire point of taking shadowcraft mage for a beguiler is to give access to a vast range of conjuration / evocation spells that normally aren't available. I would NEVER drop shadowcraft mage 5. I would also probably dump Charisma and Strength and boost Int as high as possible, since virtually all your spells are heavily save-dependent. Heighten Spell might be nice in conjunction with Metamagic School Focus, and there's a cheesy trick involving Earth Spell (feat from Races of Stone) + Heighten Spell + Shadow Illusion that could be very scary (especially if Metamagic School Focus works the way I think it does with Heighten). The cheesy trick in question does require Wis 13, though. If I did a beguiler / shadowcraft mage at maximum cheese setting it'd probably be something like: Str 6 Dex 8 Con 16 Int 18 Wis 14 Cha 8 L1: Beguiler - Spell Focus (Illusion) L2: Beguiler L3: Beguiler - Heighten Spell L4: Beguiler L5: Beguiler L6: Beguiler - Metamagic School Focus (Illusion) L7: Mindbender L8: Beguiler - Shadow Conjuration as Advanced Learning L9: Shadowcraft Mage - Earth Sense L10: Shadowcraft Mage L11: Shadowcraft Mage L12: Shadowcraft Mage - Earth Spell L13: Shadowcraft Mage L14: Unseen Seer L15: Unseen Seer - feat of choice, and pick whatever your favorite divination spell from another class' list is, with your 15 levels worth of NONC spell access ;) I might take Arcane Disciple early, delay the other feats by one tier, and retrain it for Earth Sense at L12 to get the Earth Spell + Shadow Illusion synergy in play. Rapid Metamagic would be wonderful, and you could make room for it if you're willing to give up some of the reduced-cost-heighten silliness ;) It might be worth taking Unseen Seer earlier if a nice NONC divination spell comes up: Assay Spell Resistance would be great for a shadowcraft build, since all their shadow illusions are SR: yes.
bitznarf 02-28-07, 11:59 PM	Yes, but you can use the Shadow Illusion ability of shadowcraft mage to make figment spells act like shadow conjuration / evocation, only better. The entire point of taking shadowcraft mage for a beguiler is to give access to a vast range of conjuration / evocation spells that normally aren't available. I would NEVER drop shadowcraft mage 5. What spells are you seeing that I could turn into shadow conjuration/shadow evocation? In the Shadow Illusion ability I see 6 spells it can apply to: silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image. The only one on the beguiler spell list are silent image, minor image and major image. Are you thinking I could Heighten these 3 to w/e level I need and then use them as shadow conjuration/evocation from their modified spell levels?
copper_wyrmling 03-01-07, 12:33 AM	What spells are you seeing that I could turn into shadow conjuration/shadow evocation? In the Shadow Illusion ability I see 6 spells it can apply to: silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image. The only one on the beguiler spell list are silent image, minor image and major image. Are you thinking I could Heighten these 3 to w/e level I need and then use them as shadow conjuration/evocation from their modified spell levels? Yes :) A silent image heightened to third level is a third-level spell for all purposes, so it should work.
bitznarf 03-01-07, 12:58 AM	Is it possible to say.. use sculpt spell on a shadow evocation/conjuration through the figment turned into shadow spells this character would have? On a side note.. why Unseen Seer for the final 2 levels?
copper_wyrmling 03-01-07, 01:10 AM	Is it possible to say.. use sculpt spell on a shadow evocation/conjuration through the figment turned into shadow spells this character would have? That one is more ambiguous (because the initial silent image spell isn't a valid target for the metamagic). I would expect table variation. On a side note.. why Unseen Seer for the final 2 levels? Fatespinner would be fine too - the main reason for Unseen Seer is that I like skills. Being able to add a divination spell from any list to your class list is really nice as well, but it's really just a matter of taste between unseen seer and fatespinner (I already have a luck-and-chaos sorcerer who'll finish with fatespinner, I was looking for something different). So long as it doesn't lose you caster levels or cost you feat slots, it should be fine.
bitznarf 03-01-07, 02:15 AM	That one is more ambiguous (because the initial silent image spell isn't a valid target for the metamagic). I would expect table variation. I think I shall take this to the monkeys and see if they can come up with any sort of conclusive argument one way or another. Ie. something that I can take to the table with me should I choose to go that way. I may just chose to take Rapid Metamagic at 15 anyway, lol.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-01-07, 02:37 AM	I think I shall take this to the monkeys and see if they can come up with any sort of conclusive argument one way or another. Ie. something that I can take to the table with me should I choose to go that way. I may just chose to take Rapid Metamagic at 15 anyway, lol. Just my thoughts on the subject, being that the Beguiler is a spontaneous caster, the metamagic feat isn't applied until you actually cast the spell, which is the same time that you would be turning it into a shadow conjuration or evocation, and given that you generally you apply things in the order most beneficial to you, I'm inclined to believe it would work...No such luck for prepared casters however...
bitznarf 03-07-07, 07:45 PM	Any reason this wouldn't work in LG? (only actual choices listed) Gnome Str 6 Dex 8 Con 16 Int 18 Wis 14 Cha 8 L1: Beguiler 1 - Spell Focus (Illusion) L2: Beguiler 2 L3: Beguiler 3 - Advanced Learning (?), Heighten Spell L4: Beguiler 4 L5: Beguiler 5 L6: Beguiler 6 - Metamagic School Focus (Illusion) Use a Metamagic School Focus Heightened Legion of Sentinels to qualify for ScM L7: Shadowcraft Mage 1 L8: Shadowcraft Mage 2 L9: Shadowcraft Mage 3 - Earth Sense L10: Shadowcraft Mage 4 L11: Shadowcraft Mage 5 L12: Beguiler 7 - Advanced Learning (?), Earth Spell L13: Beguiler 8 From here I could go either L14: Beguiler 9 L15: Beguiler 10 - Still Spell, Bonus Feat or L14: Unseen Seer 1 L15: Unseen Seer 2 - Advanced Learning (?), Bonus Feat EDIT: I'm thinking that last bonus feat would be Rapid Metamagic (probably) unless someone has some other ideas.
Mommy was an Orc 03-07-07, 08:00 PM	Just be aware that there are areas where Shadowcraft Mage is illegal - as in, if you know a Shadow spell and get caught, you get yourself mindwiped by the Silent Ones(aka Sheldomar Valley)
Timlagor 03-07-07, 09:40 PM	I don't think you can use a Heightened Spell to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage.
bitznarf 03-07-07, 09:45 PM	I don't think you can use a Heightened Spell to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage. How so? Heighten Spell [Metamagic] Benefit A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. Emphasis is mine. That seems pretty cut and dried to me.
Mommy was an Orc 03-08-07, 12:35 AM	How so? Emphasis is mine. That seems pretty cut and dried to me. It is effectively a 4th level Shadow spell - that doesn't make you a caster of an actual 4th level Shadow spell. And regardless of whether or not you think you're right on this, a lot of judges won't agree with you and that's the kind of really bad table variation to avoid.
bitznarf 03-08-07, 12:39 AM	It is effectively a 4th level Shadow spell - that doesn't make you a caster of an actual 4th level Shadow spell. And regardless of whether or not you think you're right on this, a lot of judges won't agree with you and that's the kind of really bad table variation to avoid. Requirements...Spells: Able to cast at least three illusion spells, including at least one shadow spell of 4th level or higher. So casting a spell that is "a 4th level Shadow spell" doesn't count for the ability to "cast a shadow spell of 4th level or higher"? Is this what you are telling me?
Mommy was an Orc 03-08-07, 12:52 AM	So casting a spell that is "a 4th level Shadow spell" doesn't count for the ability to "cast a shadow spell of 4th level or higher"? Is this what you are telling me? Nope. You're casting a spell that is "effectively a 4th level shadow spell". That doesn't count for the ability to cast a shadow spell of 4th level or higher as it isn't actually a 4th level shadow spell.
bitznarf 03-08-07, 01:05 AM	It is effectively a 4th level Shadow spell - that doesn't make you a caster of an actual 4th level Shadow spell. And regardless of whether or not you think you're right on this, a lot of judges won't agree with you and that's the kind of really bad table variation to avoid. This excerpt was taken from the 12/20/06 FAQ, page 24. I don't think it is at all unreasonable to extrapolate that Heighten Spell does indeed change the level of the spell, based in the portion in bold. The reserve feats (Complete Mage) allow you to use their ability as long as you have a spell of a particular type and minimum level prepared. So if I have a maximized fireball prepared, does that mean the Fiery Burst feat deals 6d6 damage since it is now in a 6th-level spell slot? No. Even though a metamagic feat changes the level of the slot occupied by the spell, it doesn’t actually change the spell’s level (except for the Heighten Spell feat, or any other effect that specifically changes the spell’s actual level). The reserve feats care about the spell’s actual level, not the spell slot it occupies. As I see it the RAI (and RAW for that matter), with regards to Heighten Spell, are that it changes the level of the spell (and everything related to that.) This would change Legion of Sentinels into a 4th level spell. We already know that spells can be treated as different level spells in other cases (Domain Spells, Bard vs. Sorc/Wiz, etc.) Why not in this case (if that is the heart of your case, I'm having a hard time understanding where you are coming from.)
Mommy was an Orc 03-08-07, 01:38 AM	As I see it the RAI (and RAW for that matter), with regards to Heighten Spell, are that it changes the level of the spell (and everything related to that.) This would change Legion of Sentinels into a 4th level spell. We already know that spells can be treated as different level spells in other cases (Domain Spells, Bard vs. Sorc/Wiz, etc.) Why not in this case (if that is the heart of your case, I'm having a hard time understanding where you are coming from.) The designers obviously intended that you cast a 4th level Shadow spell. This is to prevent characters who cannot cast 4th level spells from getting into the PrC. And it is quite possible using your interpretation of RAI to build someone who can't actually cast 4th level spells to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage to enter it at 7th level. Gnome Beguiler 1: Earth Sense 3: Heighten Spell 5: Silent Spell 6: Earth Spell A 2nd level spell Heightened to 3rd becomes a 4th... If you notice, this didn't pass Copper Wyrmling's smell test for maximum cheese...
bitznarf 03-08-07, 01:59 AM	It is effectively a 4th level Shadow spell - that doesn't make you a caster of an actual 4th level Shadow spell. And regardless of whether or not you think you're right on this, a lot of judges won't agree with you and that's the kind of really bad table variation to avoid. Nope. You're casting a spell that is "effectively a 4th level shadow spell". That doesn't count for the ability to cast a shadow spell of 4th level or higher as it isn't actually a 4th level shadow spell. Do you have any rules support for either of these statements? I've provided a couple of quotes to support my case. The designers obviously intended that you cast a 4th level Shadow spell. This is to prevent characters who cannot cast 4th level spells from getting into the PrC. And it is quite possible using your interpretation of RAI to build someone who can't actually cast 4th level spells to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage to enter it at 7th level. Gnome Beguiler 1: Earth Sense 3: Heighten Spell 5: Silent Spell 6: Earth Spell A 2nd level spell Heightened to 3rd becomes a 4th... Are you saying that a spell heightened to 4th level is not a 4th level spell? If you notice, this didn't pass Copper Wyrmling's smell test for maximum cheese... Not quite sure what you are referring to here, perhaps that Copper didn't suggest it first? I don't recall Copper commenting on this version. As a side note that really doesn't have much bearing, but I thought I would mention it anyway, you would still need Spell Focus (Illusion) in the above build, leaving you at 10th for entering ScM.
copper_wyrmling 03-08-07, 02:46 AM	The designers obviously intended that you cast a 4th level Shadow spell. This is to prevent characters who cannot cast 4th level spells from getting into the PrC. And it is quite possible using your interpretation of RAI to build someone who can't actually cast 4th level spells to qualify for Shadowcraft Mage to enter it at 7th level. Gnome Beguiler 1: Earth Sense 3: Heighten Spell 5: Silent Spell 6: Earth Spell A 2nd level spell Heightened to 3rd becomes a 4th... If you notice, this didn't pass Copper Wyrmling's smell test for maximum cheese... Awww, I'm flattered that you think that's a good test :blush: Must be my sensitive gnomish nose... The thing is, if you're doing crazy powerful tricks (like, ahem, casting your choice of seventh-level conjuration / evocation spells as a twelfth-level spontaneous caster, with 100% reality and caster level 19), then people WILL want you to explain exactly how you're doing it, and a LOT of people will jump on any excuse to shut it down on their tables. Furthermore, if the early-qualification trick gets shut down, then the character actually becomes unplayable at their APL - for most players, I think that wouldn't be an acceptable degree of table variation. If I played the shadowcraft build I posted above, then I'd expect GMs to be very picky about the definition of "stone or unworked earth", I'd expect to see people saying that Metamagic School Focus doesn't work with Heighten because Heighten doesn't have a listed level adjustment, and I might even expect some weird ruling that you can't convert a heightened silent image into a high-level shadow illusion. Depending on the degree of silliness I might appeal to the senior GM (although probably not... I've never actually appealed anything, I've only considered it once), but if it was at a home game or midnight madness with no appeal, I'd still cope. I'd still be playing a full caster and skill-monkey with some nifty defensive abilities from shadowcraft mage, telepathy from Mindbender, the ability to boost the save DCs of my illusions with heighten + earth spell and / or metamagic school focus, and limited damage spells from converting major image into shadow illusions. There's a degree of table variation that's acceptable. That doesn't cover either losing five levels of spellcasting or just being told that your character is illegal and unplayable. Given that the CharOp boards tend to put a note on these early-qualification tricks advising players to check with their GMs before trying to use them, I really wouldn't like to try to argue it with a Living Greyhawk judge. (If it's too cheezy for the CharOp boards, well... yeah...) Note that I'm not commenting on the validity of any of the arguments you've been presenting. I'm just pointing out the nature of table variation in LG.
Evanta 03-08-07, 05:01 AM	I would close an eye for Heightened spell so that you qualify w/o Mindbender, but not from the -1 level for meta-magic focus. Look at it this way, if we are willing to accept that your argument stands, all those PrCs which say 'must cast Xth level spells' suddenly can be taken 2 levels earlier as long as you have meta-magic focus. It would most certainly set a lot of alarm bells ringing in DMs' heads.
Mommy was an Orc 03-08-07, 10:02 AM	Do you have any rules support for either of these statements? I've provided a couple of quotes to support my case. I don't see how they're relevant. You're going to find this is a religious issue and you happen to be the persecuted minority on it. In very large part due to the Earth Spell trick, but also from a strong spirit of the rules point of view. As copper mentioned, even people on the CharOp boards won't try this trick without asking their DM first. Now imagine asking every single Judge whether or not they consider your character legal after you've been mustered at their table - with many judges considering it cheating if you don't ask them. Now imagine pulling the 100% powered illusion spells as a 12th level beguiler and seeing the DM reconsider their decision. And if you didn't tell them before, then they find out you pulled this trick with the shadow spell as they make sure you're 100% legal to do this. And the truly weird thing here is that you're asking judges to do this for a single spell known. If you're going to do a cheesy build, the number one rule is to avoid table variation if possible. You're demanding for it to happen. Not quite sure what you are referring to here, perhaps that Copper didn't suggest it first? I don't recall Copper commenting on this version. As a side note that really doesn't have much bearing, but I thought I would mention it anyway, you would still need Spell Focus (Illusion) in the above build, leaving you at 10th for entering ScM. That affects Beguiler, but not Wizard - they can still enter the PrC before being able to cast 4th level spells by your interpretation by doing this. And it isn't just Shadowcraft Mage where it is an issue - can a Human Fighter 1/Wizard 3 qualify for Eldritch Knight? Copper is commenting on this version because she didn't put Earth Spell into the build until later on.
bitznarf 03-08-07, 11:24 AM	I'll wait till I am back at my books before I respond, as I don't want to unintentionally quote incorrect rules (pre-req's, etc).
Zanzibax 03-08-07, 12:31 PM	That's no good...You aren't casting a 4th level spell. You're casting a whatever level spell *Heightened* to 4th level. Heighten Spell doesn't mention that it allows you to qualify for casting higher level spells...(and expect a FAQ or new ruling stating that it does NOT stack with Earthspell soon.)
bitznarf 03-08-07, 12:33 PM	That's no good...You aren't casting a 4th level spell. You're casting a whatever level spell *Heightened* to 4th level. Heighten Spell doesn't mention that it allows you to qualify for casting higher level spells...(and expect a FAQ or new ruling stating that it does NOT stack with Earthspell soon.) Um... under the Benefit: section of Earth Spell it very directly indicates that the usage of the Feat is to enhance Heighten Spell: As long as you are standing on stone or unworked earth (including normal soil), you can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect. Edit: Heighten spell specifically changes the level of the spell itself, thus a 5th level spell heightened to 7th level becomes a 7th level spell. I'll still respond to MwaO and Evanta once I have my books. The above I pulled off online sources.
bitznarf 03-08-07, 07:43 PM	I would close an eye for Heightened spell so that you qualify w/o Mindbender, but not from the -1 level for meta-magic focus. While this would be a valid ruling in a home game, I don't see how it applies to LG. Look at it this way, if we are willing to accept that your argument stands, all those PrCs which say 'must cast Xth level spells' suddenly can be taken 2 levels earlier as long as you have meta-magic focus. It would most certainly set a lot of alarm bells ringing in DMs' heads. While this may seem alarming, this is how the rules as written interact. See below for my reasoning/logic/whatever you want to call it. I don't see how they're relevant. You're going to find this is a religious issue and you happen to be the persecuted minority on it. In very large part due to the Earth Spell trick, but also from a strong spirit of the rules point of view. First off, neither being in the minority nor being 'persecuted' have any bearing on the rules. Should I be right, it just means that a larger group were wrong. As for a 'strong spirit of the rules point of view' could you please state what you feel they are (with RAW support) so that we have something to work with. Perhaps there is something I am simply overlooking but is plain as day to you. As copper mentioned, even people on the CharOp boards won't try this trick without asking their DM first. Now imagine asking every single Judge whether or not they consider your character legal after you've been mustered at their table - with many judges considering it cheating if you don't ask them. The CharOp thread I've been using as a reference is this one: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=655556 After having read through the whole thread, I haven't seen this anywhere. What I have seen are comments about checking with your DM before using the Arcane Disciple/Miracle uber-cheese. Can you point out where 'they' have said they wouldn't use the base trick before consulting their DM? Now imagine pulling the 100% powered illusion spells as a 12th level beguiler and seeing the DM reconsider their decision. And if you didn't tell them before, then they find out you pulled this trick with the shadow spell as they make sure you're 100% legal to do this. In LG we are supposed to inform the judge of any non-core material that we are bringing to the table. I certainly wouldn't 'pull this trick' in the middle of a session unless the judge was one I was familiar with and had already gone over this with. And the truly weird thing here is that you're asking judges to do this for a single spell known. If you're going to do a cheesy build, the number one rule is to avoid table variation if possible. You're demanding for it to happen. What I am hoping to do here, is hash out how this all actually works. This way, I can either drop the concept, or have something that I can print out, show to a DM and say 'this is what I am doing, what do you think?' That affects Beguiler, but not Wizard - they can still enter the PrC before being able to cast 4th level spells by your interpretation by doing this. And it isn't just Shadowcraft Mage where it is an issue - can a Human Fighter 1/Wizard 3 qualify for Eldritch Knight?<snip> Yes. Said character would need to spend feats to do so however, ones not normally part of a optimized Eldritch Knight build. See below for my reasoning/logic/whatever you want to call it for why this works. That's no good...You aren't casting a 4th level spell. You're casting a whatever level spell *Heightened* to 4th level. Heighten Spell doesn't mention that it allows you to qualify for casting higher level spells...(and expect a FAQ or new ruling stating that it does NOT stack with Earthspell soon.) When working with rules like this, I like to break it down into simple parts/steps. What I get is this: 1)Heighten Spell changes the level of a spell as defined by the PHB, page 95 Heighten Spell [Metamagic] Benefit A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare a hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th level spell. Thus, casting a Heightened by 1 Legion of Sentinels is a 4th level spell, depending on how far it was heightened. DM: "What level spell is/was that?" Player: "4th" 2) Regardless of the slot a spell is cast from, the spell level does not change, PHB page 178 Spell Slots: ... A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher level slot with a lower-level spell Inferred from Heighten Spell (or the lack thereof in this case) the spell level doesn't change, a magic missile cast from a 3rd level slot is still a 1st level spell in all respects. Thus, a 4th level spell cast out of a 3rd level slot (by means of Earth Spell, Metamagic School Focus or other such means) is still a 4th level spell in all respects. 3) The requirements for classes such as Eldritch Knight and Shadowcraft Mage are clearly spelled out: Eldritch Knight, DMG page 188 [among other thing(s)]Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells Shadowcraft Mage, Races of Stone page 121 [among other thing(s)]Spells: Able to cast at least three illusion spells, including at least one shadow spell of 4th level or higher For the Eldritch Knight in your example we could have this: Human Fighter 1/Wizard 3 1: Wizard 1 - Earth Sense, Heighten Spell 2: Fighter 1 - <Bonus Feat> 3: Wizard 2 - Earth Spell 4: Wizard 3 This character could cast a Heightened 1st level spell, say magic missile, heightened it to 2nd level, affected by Earth Spell turning the original 1st level spell (magic missile) into a 3rd level spell in all respects. This includes qualifying for prestige classes. This would net us 5: Eldritch Knight 1 - <Bonus Feat> Taking a look at the Shadowcraft Mage we could have this: Gnome Beguiler 6 1: Beguiler 1 - Spell Focus (Illusion) 2: Beguiler 2 3: Beguiler 3 - Advanced Learning (?), Heighten Spell 4: Beguiler 4 5: Beguiler 5 6: Beguiler 6 - Metamagic School Focus (Illusion) The character could cast a Heightened 3rd level spell, Legion of Sentinels, heightening it to 4th level. Using Metamagic School Focus (Illusion) to cast the spell out of a 3rd level slot we still have a spell that is a 4th level shadow spell in all respects, including qualifying for Shadowcraft Mage, netting us: 7: Shadowcraft Mage 1 And after all that, I'm off to eat some food. Edit: I showed this to my roommate (who also happens to be one of my DM's) and all he could say was 'Heighten Spell is the bastard child of metamagic and prestige classes. And promptly said the homebrew campaign he is working on is going to be low magic. (He wanted me to put this in my next post)
Evanta 03-08-07, 08:21 PM	While this may seem alarming, this is how the rules as written interact. See below for my reasoning/logic/whatever you want to call it. I find nothing wrong with your argument. However you have agreed with me that the ability to exploit metamagic focus (as a way to qualify for PrCs early) is of concern, and it appears to be a big loophole that designers of the feat probably never thought about, and never intended. I will simply point this back to the Circle to be addressed in the next Dispel Confusion.
bitznarf 03-08-07, 08:24 PM	I find nothing wrong with your argument. However you have agreed with me that the ability to exploit metamagic focus (as a way to qualify for PrCs early) is of concern, and it appears to be a big loophole that designers of the feat probably never thought about, and never intended. I will simply point this back to the Circle to be addressed in the next Dispel Confusion. That works for me. It effectively leaves the question in the hands of the DM(s) of the campaign, the Circle in our case. If it gets a DC/nerf bat/ban in some manner, so be it, but as it stands...
copper_wyrmling 03-08-07, 09:13 PM	bitznarf, I can immediately think of one general response and two responses specific to the feats suggested for rapid qualification. Again, not saying that I agree with these (although I may agree with the first one... need to think about it some more), but they seem (to me) plausible enough that I don't think I'd overrule them if I was the senior GM. (1) "Look at the list of L4 spells granted by your class. Is Heightened Legion of Sentinels on there? It behaves as a fourth-level spell, but it's not actually a fourth-level spell: thus, it doesn't qualify you for prestige classes. The precedent is that you can't use Limited Wish to emulate something like a Twinned Scorching Ray, and you can't pull a Heightened Tasha's Hideous Laughter out of a MotAO spellpool: "spell" =! "spell + metamagic"." (2) (if using Metamagic School Focus to qualify) "Metamagic School Focus allows you to reduce the cost of a metamagic feat applied to a spell of the appropriate school, but Heighten Spell, unlike any other metamagic feat, doesn't have a cost per se, it just sets the effective level of the spell equal to the level of the slot you're heightening it into. Thus, it doesn't work with Metamagic School Focus, as there's no "cost" to reduce." (I've seen this or a similar argument used in an attempt to shut down DMM (Heighten) abuse: based on that precedent, I believe it to be a rare but not nonexistent position. As you might guess by the presence of Metamagic School Focus in my build, I do not agree with this interpretation ;) ) (3) (if using Earth Spell to qualify) "You only have the ability to do this when standing on stone or unworked earth. If you fly or enter a building with a wooden floor, you lose five levels of spellcasting." And of course, the Rule Zero argument... (4) "That's ridiculous, utterly against the spirit of the rules, and doesn't work on my table. Play a different character, or find a different GM." (and incidentally, you have also now annoyed that GM and won yourself a reputation as a cheese-weasel, ensuring that he/she will check all your characters thoroughly in the future) My comment on the early-qualification tricks being tagged as "check with your DM" was not really specific to the shadowcraft gnome builds: about six months to a year ago, I used to read the CharOp boards very regularly, and it's something that I noticed usually got a warning-light when people suggested builds relying on it. Threads devoted to a specific trick tend to attract devotees of that specific trick, who don't like to think that any aspect of it might NOT work: see the Arcane Thesis thread for examples. I personally would never build a character whose viability is dependent on random table variation, especially if the PC is so massively above the power curve that people will suspect there must be something iffy going on. Of course, you can try it if you want, there's nothing stopping you - I just wouldn't advise it :)
bitznarf 03-08-07, 09:41 PM	bitznarf, I can immediately think of one general response and two responses specific to the feats suggested for rapid qualification. Again, not saying that I agree with these (although I may agree with the first one... need to think about it some more), but they seem (to me) plausible enough that I don't think I'd overrule them if I was the senior GM. (1) "Look at the list of L4 spells granted by your class. Is Heightened Legion of Sentinels on there? It behaves as a fourth-level spell, but it's not actually a fourth-level spell: thus, it doesn't qualify you for prestige classes. The precedent is that you can't use Limited Wish to emulate something like a Twinned Scorching Ray, and you can't pull a Heightened Tasha's Hideous Laughter out of a MotAO spellpool: "spell" =! "spell + metamagic"." Hadn't thought of this one, and I don't really have an answer off hand. I think I would simply look at this as a way for a DM to not allow this 'trick'. Technically it is a supportable argument given the precedent, however I believe it is a stretch. (2) (if using Metamagic School Focus to qualify) "Metamagic School Focus allows you to reduce the cost of a metamagic feat applied to a spell of the appropriate school, but Heighten Spell, unlike any other metamagic feat, doesn't have a cost per se, it just sets the effective level of the spell equal to the level of the slot you're heightening it into. Thus, it doesn't work with Metamagic School Focus, as there's no "cost" to reduce." (I've seen this or a similar argument used in an attempt to shut down DMM (Heighten) abuse: based on that precedent, I believe it to be a rare but not nonexistent position. As you might guess by the presence of Metamagic School Focus in my build, I do not agree with this interpretation ;) ) (3) (if using Earth Spell to qualify) "You only have the ability to do this when standing on stone or unworked earth. If you fly or enter a building with a wooden floor, you lose five levels of spellcasting." In which case an IoSV who either does not prep 2 or more abjuration spells of 4th level or higher; or who has cast enough spells that day to no longer have 2 abjuration spells above 4th level left no longer qualifies as a IsOV, losing X levels of spellcasting. And of course, the Rule Zero argument... (4) "That's ridiculous, utterly against the spirit of the rules, and doesn't work on my table. Play a different character, or find a different GM." (and incidentally, you have also now annoyed that GM and won yourself a reputation as a cheese-weasel, ensuring that he/she will check all your characters thoroughly in the future) Given (1) above I'm not sure that I can accurately say "you've got the rules wrong." As such I would hope to be able to come to some sort of a compromise with said DM. If not, I either play a different character, or find a different DM. And in the future, try to avoid that DM. As for the 'cheese-weasel'... *shrugs* It doesn't offend me, but if they want to consider it an insult they are more then welcome. Said DM would be more then welcome to go over my builds and rolls with a fine toothed comb (given enough time). I play my characters by the rules. I may stretch the rules, but I don't break them. My comment on the early-qualification tricks being tagged as "check with your DM" was not really specific to the shadowcraft gnome builds: about six months to a year ago, I used to read the CharOp boards very regularly, and it's something that I noticed usually got a warning-light when people suggested builds relying on it. Threads devoted to a specific trick tend to attract devotees of that specific trick, who don't like to think that any aspect of it might NOT work: see the Arcane Thesis thread for examples. Although I'm not really sure what the problem was with Arcane Thesis (I've never looked at it) I can see your point here. I personally would never build a character whose viability is dependent on random table variation, especially if the PC is so massively above the power curve that people will suspect there must be something iffy going on. Of course, you can try it if you want, there's nothing stopping you - I just wouldn't advise it :) I'll be talking to the judges in my area, see what they have to say before I take my 7th level. As noted above there is at least one who will allow it :D Thanks for the response, it gives me something to work with.
Alpha_Nerd 03-09-07, 11:30 AM	Hey, I just thought I would throw my 2 coppers into this arguement. Lets look at the Wizard 3/Fighter 1/EK 1 At 4th level with the Earth Spell feat, you can not prepare and cast third level spells. When you cast a spell that is under the effect of a Heighten Spell Metamagic feat(while on solid ground or worked stone) it gets an increased bonus in spell level and caster level. You're not actually casting a third level spell. You're casting a second level spell that becomes third level after you've cast it and it goes through the check for solid ground/worked stone. I hope I'm making sense. An analogy would be how when you prep Summon Monster III you aren't prepping a fire spell even if you intend to summon a fire elemental with it. You're prepping a Conjuration (Summoning) spell that becomes a Conjuration (Summoning) (Fire) spell after you cast it.
bitznarf 03-09-07, 11:42 AM	Hey, I just thought I would throw my 2 coppers into this arguement. Lets look at the Wizard 3/Fighter 1/EK 1 At 4th level with the Earth Spell feat, you can not prepare and cast third level spells. When you cast a spell that is under the effect of a Heighten Spell Metamagic feat(while on solid ground or worked stone) it gets an increased bonus in spell level and caster level. You're not actually casting a third level spell. You're casting a second level spell that becomes third level after you've cast it and it goes through the check for solid ground/worked stone. I hope I'm making sense. An analogy would be how when you prep Summon Monster III you aren't prepping a fire spell even if you intend to summon a fire elemental with it. You're prepping a Conjuration (Summoning) spell that becomes a Conjuration (Summoning) (Fire) spell after you cast it. However the argument is that you fulfill the requirement "able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells". For example the PC casts a heightened magic missile. DM: "What level spell was that?" Player: "3rd" The player has just cast a 3rd level spell and thus is 'Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells'. If the requirement was 'able to prep 3rd-level spells' or 'has 3rd level spell slots' *then* said player would not qualify. Or at least, thats how I approach prereqs for prestige classes. Edit: If a prestige class required 'Able to cast a fire spell of at least 3rd level' Summon Monster III would qualify, so long as the PC (or NPC) is not restricted in some other manner. One last note here, if qualifying for prereqs work as you seem to be suggesting, I don't see how a spontaneous caster could ever qualify for the above fictitious prestige class, short of Arcane Preparation.
Alpha_Nerd 03-09-07, 12:19 PM	The thing is is the player isn't casting a third level spell, he's casting a second level spell that becomes modified after he casts it. Also, I'm pretty sure Summon Monster III doesn't qualify as a fire spell for Prestige Classes.
bitznarf 03-09-07, 12:36 PM	The thing is is the player isn't casting a third level spell, he's casting a second level spell that becomes modified after he casts it. Also, I'm pretty sure Summon Monster III doesn't qualify as a fire spell for Prestige Classes. Has the player cast a 3rd level spell? Yes. So whats the problem? If the problem you are seeing is specific to the EK Fighter1/Wizard3, we could consider a Fighter1/Sorc4. In this case there is *no* preparation involved. The sorc isn't preparing a 2nd level spell that becomes 3rd level on casting, the sorc is simply casting a 3rd level spell. I honestly don't see the problem here. As for Summon Monster III not qualifying for Prestige Classes, do you have some rules support to share?
Alpha_Nerd 03-09-07, 12:44 PM	In my opinion this is how it all goes down. Step 1: Caster casts his spell, Heightened Magic Missle, a second level spell Step 2: Earth Spell feat triggers, checks for conditions, and applies the effect Step 3: Spell becomes third level after casting The caster never casts a third level spell. He casts a second level spell that turns into a third level spell because of a feat. I was wrong about Summon Monster though, since it actually becomes a fire spell when you cast it. It would not qualify for reserve feats though :(
bitznarf 03-09-07, 01:25 PM	In my opinion this is how it all goes down. Step 1: Caster casts his spell, Heightened Magic Missle, a second level spell Step 2: Earth Spell feat triggers, checks for conditions, and applies the effect Step 3: Spell becomes third level after casting The caster never casts a third level spell. He casts a second level spell that turns into a third level spell because of a feat. I was wrong about Summon Monster though, since it actually becomes a fire spell when you cast it. It would not qualify for reserve feats though :( No argument here about reserve feats. However, I'm not not sure how the spell becoming a [fire] spell as you cast it is any different from Earth Spell raising the spell level as you cast it. Feats (unless specified otherwise) don't affect something *after* you take an action, they are part of the action themselves, or perhaps enable the action.
Timlagor 03-10-07, 05:54 PM	You should also be aware that even if your local judges allow someting it can still be taken away by the Circle or WotC.
bitznarf 03-11-07, 09:15 PM	You should also be aware that even if your local judges allow someting it can still be taken away by the Circle or WotC. Thats fine. But until they do, all is well. This applies to any cheese at all, not just Shadowcraft Mage/Heighten Spell cheese.