Post/Author/DateTime	Post
codyknotts 06-03-07, 03:25 PM	Here is our first idea for the ultimate six man team. The idea was that everyone contributes a role. No Bard\Marshal because the team could use another combat contributer versus pumper because the math means the six contributer is stronger. Big Dumb Fighter Dwarf S: 18 D: 10 C: 17 I: 8 W: 10 C: 6 1st Level Barbarian Extra Rage 2nd Fighter Weapon Focus (D. Waraxe) 3rd Fighter Power Attack, Recklass Rage 4th Fighter 5th Fighter W. Spec. (Dw. Waraxe) 6th Fighter I. Bull Rush 7th Fighter E. Weapon Master 8th Fighter Storm Trooper 9th Fighter Improved Sunder 10th Fighter Combat Brute 11th Fighter 12th Fighter M.W. Master, G.W. Spec. 13th Fighter 14th Fighter G.W. Focus 15th Hexblade (for will save) Role High Damage guy Wizard 1-7 Wizard (could change for prestige on 6-7) 8-9 Fatespinner 10-15 Initate of the Sevenfold Would take Mindbenders, Arcane Order if available Grey Elf S: 6 D: 12 C: 14 I: 20 W: 8 C: 8 MetaMagic feats and Craft Wonderous Item are the feats (looking for suggestions) Role: Primary Arcane Caster Cleric Human S: 10 D: 12 C: 14 I: 10 W: 15 C: 14 1-5 Cleric Feats Augment Healing, Empower at first Improved turning at 3rd 6-15 Radiant Servant of Pelor Sacred Healing, Empower turning, (looking for ideas) Role: Primary Healer, Turning Undead, Secondary damage spellcaster at higher levels High AC Fighter Human S: 18 D: 10 C: 15 I: 8 W: 10 C: 8 1-15 Fighter 1st Level W. Focus (Spiked Shield), (Armor Spikes) Shield Bash 2nd Level Shield Specialization 3rd Power Attack 4th Armor Opt. 6th Shileld Ward, Blood Spike Charger 8th Im. Armor Opt. 9th W. Spec (S. Shield) 10th M.W. Master (Piercing) 12th Im. Toughness, Armor Spec. 14th (need assistance) Obviously double shield fighter, using the Blood Spike to put out tremendous damage. Uses Towershield for cover bonus, other shield for shield bonus Goal is 46 AC by 15th level Role: Cork Gnome Mystic Theurge S: 6 D: 12 C: 16 I: 16 W: 15 C: 8 1st-3rd Healer 4th-6th Wizard 7th-15th My. Theurge All Meta Magic and Craft Wonderous Item Role: Secondary Healer, Secondary Arcane, Booster Will take 1-3 levels of Warweaver if available Arcane Trickster 1 Rogue 2-4 Wizard 5th Unseen Seer 6th Spell Warp Sniper 7-10th Spell Warp Sniper 11-15th Arcane Trickster Max out Disable Device, Search Halfling S: 6 D: 18 C: 14 I: 16 W: 10 C: 8 Role: Trap stopper, Artillery Looking for advice and comment:)
jhorred 06-03-07, 04:46 PM	Boost the AC fighters Dex so he can get Combat Expertise, I saw a fighter type get over a 45 AC at 13th or so...
Timlagor 06-03-07, 05:15 PM	You really need to work ojn your formatting. It's very hard to see where one character end and the next begins. Hit the 'quote' button to see how it's done That said those characters are not optimal. If your Bard isn't a good choice then he's either not a good bard or you haven't got a good group. Wizard should ignore MotAO. High Damage guy should probably be a small mounted charger Drop the Spellwarp Sniper -USS is better. This guy should probably be primarily TWF-weapon-using-Rogue though in the group. the High-Ac guy looks... experimental Mystic Theurge is a very bad idea.
Golorious 06-03-07, 05:37 PM	Here is an alternate Cork build that may or not make you happy. It uses goad and knights challenge (test of mettle) to keep the bad guys focused on the cork. It will also have better saves but will not do a lot of damage but it wont suffer from combat expertise -to hit. However, it will keep the melee bad guys and some spell casters focused on himself. between goad and knights challenge it will be able to "hold aggro". Getting expertise would be good but it already suffers greatly from too many important stats. You could drop wis and not cast 1st level spells and buy a head band but... ehh... I like a will save on a fighter, it confuses the spell casters. Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 15 Stat bumps go to charisma Longsword & Shield cork 1 Cleric Goad, Divine Shield (Domains War:Courage or nobility) Hieroneous. 2 Paladin 3 Paladin Shield Specialization 4 Knight 5 Knight *mounted combat 6 Knight Shield Ward (helps touch AC a lot with divine shield) 7 Knight *test of mettle* 8 Fighter *dodge - buy gloves of dex +2 9 Fighter *mobility, Elusive target... time to get flanked :) 10 Knight 11 Knight *great fortitude 12 Knight Active shield defense so you can go full defensive and still use elusive target, AoO 13 Knight 14 Knight 15 Knight combat reflexes or ability focus knights challenge (test of mettle)
kjenks 06-03-07, 06:52 PM	Six druids.
Sieylianna 06-03-07, 07:10 PM	You don't have anyone who is competent in the "Face" role. The cleric will be able to cover diplomacy, but that's it. You have a wizard, a mystic theurge and an arcane trickster. I don't see the need for arcane on the rogue. You don't have anyone with track or a ranged combat specialist. Ed
Lupo 06-03-07, 07:47 PM	Six druids. yea, hard to beat such a team :D nearest would be six clerics, each with a different choice of domains. of course, these will start a holy war on each other, this might reduce their effectiveness :P ciao martin m.
codyknotts 06-03-07, 08:02 PM	Here is an alternate Cork build that may or not make you happy. It uses goad and knights challenge (test of mettle) to keep the bad guys focused on the cork. It will also have better saves but will not do a lot of damage but it wont suffer from combat expertise -to hit. However, it will keep the melee bad guys and some spell casters focused on himself. between goad and knights challenge it will be able to "hold aggro". Getting expertise would be good but it already suffers greatly from too many important stats. You could drop wis and not cast 1st level spells and buy a head band but... ehh... I like a will save on a fighter, it confuses the spell casters. Str 14 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 15 Stat bumps go to charisma Longsword & Shield cork 1 Cleric Goad, Divine Shield (Domains War:Courage or nobility) Hieroneous. 2 Paladin 3 Paladin Shield Specialization 4 Knight 5 Knight *mounted combat 6 Knight Shield Ward (helps touch AC a lot with divine shield) 7 Knight *test of mettle* 8 Fighter *dodge - buy gloves of dex +2 9 Fighter *mobility, Elusive target... time to get flanked :) 10 Knight 11 Knight *great fortitude 12 Knight Active shield defense so you can go full defensive and still use elusive target, AoO 13 Knight 14 Knight 15 Knight combat reflexes or ability focus knights challenge (test of mettle) This was one idea that we considered. We really like the combo. The reason for the other guy was the crazy damage output combined with the high ac.
codyknotts 06-03-07, 08:07 PM	[QUOTE=Timlagor;12595423]You really need to work ojn your formatting. It's very hard to see where one character end and the next begins. Hit the 'quote' button to see how it's done That said those characters are not optimal. If your Bard isn't a good choice then he's either not a good bard or you haven't got a good group. Bard are mathmatically overvalued for the +1 to hit and damage, versus a character that either puts out damage or controls. (as explained above) Wizard should ignore MotAO. High Damage guy should probably be a small mounted charger Charger's problem is that must move, and not provide another guy in front. We have used chargers repeatedly and they become solitary guys, not team players. But I actually argued in favor of one, so I see your point. Drop the Spellwarp Sniper -USS is better. This guy should probably be primarily TWF-weapon-using-Rogue though in the group. the High-Ac guy looks... experimental I assume USS is Unseen Seer? Personally the loss of spell level outside of divination is incredibly weak. Plus the free sudden maximize on the Spellwarp Sniper is amazing when you consider split ray. High AC guy is experimental, it takes advantage of rules and what I personally consider crazy tactical feat with the shield. Mystic Theurge is a very bad idea. (Why?) Heals, Buffs, It is a secondary spell caster. Not disagreeing. Our experience with the Arcane Heirophant was amazing once it kicked in.
codyknotts 06-03-07, 08:10 PM	You don't have anyone who is competent in the "Face" role. The cleric will be able to cover diplomacy, but that's it. You have a wizard, a mystic theurge and an arcane trickster. I don't see the need for arcane on the rogue. You don't have anyone with track or a ranged combat specialist. Ed Track-Overrated to say the least in LG Ranged Combat Specialist-Does not occupy a spot if necessary as fighter, underpowered versus other spell casters (who are basically ranged guys when necessary) Weaker than damage of fighters or chargers. Again, this was an arguement that we had but it meant three fighters and less spell casting. BTW I agree with Ken Jenks, Six Druids AMAZING, but we were trying for a balanced blend (and I think combined arms would still be better)
Evanta 06-03-07, 09:43 PM	My proposal 1. Dwarf Barbarian X/ Fighter 4/ Occult Slayer X - Raw Damage and hp tank. - High enough saving throws. - Get melee weapon mastery 2. Scout / Ranger - Skill monkey w/ Trapfinding - Tracker / Outdoors specialist - Primary Archer 3. Cleric / Radiant Servant - Anti-UD specialist - Healer / Buffer - Spells to deal w/ situations 4. Wizard (Conjurer and retrain later to specialist) / Fate Spinner / Mage of Arcane Order - Battle control - some AOE - Spells to deal w/ situations - Knowledge guy 5. Druid - Backup for 1., 3., and 4. - Comes with a nice pet 6. Half-elf Marshal 8 / Fighter 2 / Outcast Champion 5 - The face (Huge diplomacy) - Defensive Tank (Carries tower shield + Combat Expertise) - Comes with 3 useful auras + 1 aura-like power - Debuffer with intimidating strike.
Morgen 06-03-07, 10:25 PM	Our halfling caravan currently has a necromancer, a beguiler, a martial/ranger, a cleric, and a favored soul. We hire out the tank spot.
Mommy was an Orc 06-03-07, 11:30 PM	Bard are mathmatically overvalued for the +1 to hit and damage, versus a character that either puts out damage or controls. (as explained above) That's the first time I've heard of Bards being overvalued. Bard 9/Marshal 1/Sublime Chord 5 or Bard 7/Warchanter 3/Sublime Chord 5. +1 to hit/damage. How's +BAB to hit when you Power Attack for full? Yes, you're penalized, but if you know you're always playing with a Warchanter, you put feats towards Elusive Target. I assume USS is Unseen Seer? Personally the loss of spell level outside of divination is incredibly weak. Plus the free sudden maximize on the Spellwarp Sniper is amazing when you consider split ray. If you're a Rogue 1/Wizard 4, you're down a caster level to begin with, so Practiced Spellcaster isn't a bad option. That takes care of the rest of Unseen Seer's caster level loss. Mystic Theurge is a very bad idea. (Why?) Heals, Buffs, It is a secondary spell caster. Not disagreeing. Our experience with the Arcane Heirophant was amazing once it kicked in. Mystic Theurges are powerful when people don't know how effective utility casters are. You want to play an effective mystic theurge? Be a primary caster that focuses on utility spells. Take abilities that let you serve both as healer, buffer, and battlefield control expert(domain spontaneity, arcane disciple, spontaneous healer, etc...) In any case, you look to be a little too much stand still and fight. You're missing a tracker(track is useful in LG, you need to push it), a face, and a ranged weapon expert - what happens when the encounter distance is at 300 feet away? 2 levels of Ranger, Quickdraw, and Brutal Throw will make a tank into a ranged weapon expert. Also, almost no one has any good reflex saves nor does anyone have particularly great saves across the board - that's okay for a single character, but you want someone with decent odds of making a given save category in any party to avoid the unlucky TPK. And it is always nice when you have someone who is likely to make every save so the BBEG caster can't switch to the worst category.
Timlagor 06-03-07, 11:53 PM	Bard are mathmatically overvalued for the +1 to hit and damage, versus a character that either puts out damage or controls. (as explained above) 1) That's +4/+4 across the party (not everyone benefits) 2) It's +2/+2 per person at second level (more with instrument access) 3) That's one action per combat ..they get at least one more in most combats. 4) They also have skills for out of combat 5) they also have other Song effects 6) If you don't understand that Motivate Dex is valuable... Warchanter and Sublime Chord both offer amazing benefits. With two melee damage dealers in the party and no 'face' you are seriously undervaluing the Bardic Builds. If you make the Rogue TWF too... Rogue needs the Wiz1/USS 2 in order to pick up Grave Strike and GolemStrike. There are items around (esp in the MIC) that make this less essential but it's still extremely good. Otherwise sticking to Rogue is very good ...but you want to be TWFing.
Hariman 06-04-07, 12:13 AM	My opinion is: (Using mostly pure classes for simplicity.)) Cleric: Primary Healer Druid: Summoner/Divine Artillery/Backup Healer/Possible Damage Dealer. (Charger?) (Codzilla!) Wizard: Blaster/Battlefield Control. Conjurer Recommended, for orbs/damage spells and other useful conjurations. Fighter: BDF, other classes can be substituted, must be Full BAB damage machine, or a martial cleric. Rogue: Trapfinder/TWFer, prestige classes (Like Unseen Seer) can be added if desired. And the final, vital, master of all diplomacy that will talk the party's way out of many a battle? A Cleric1/Bard14 of Rao with the domains that grant bonuses to diplomacy, skill focus diplomacy, and the Negotiator feat. (And the spell "Friendly Face"). A level or two of barbarian can be added to improve martial prowess. (16 cha = +3 Cha Mod, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Negotiator, +2 Domain, +2 Domain, +4 Ranks = +16 Diplomacy at level one! Laugh if you will. But I have seen a cleric/bard/barbarian of Rao talk the party out of multiple combats with ZERO chance of failure at APL 6. AND inspirational Boost provides a +2 bardsong at low levels, which is nothing to sneeze at. That's my party of 6. I know it's not perfect. I haven't listed perfectly min/maxed builds for each class. But I'll tell you now, having a bard with uber diplomacy along HELPS. Hariman PS: If not bard for number 6, then a second Full BAB martial damage dealer.
_metz_ 06-04-07, 12:35 AM	For the Dwarven Damage producer consider: Deepwarden Dwarf (2 levels for Con instead of Dex to AC) (Drop dex to 8 int to 10 for skill points) and DEFINITELY a one level dip in exotic weapon Master for Uncanny Blow. Your MT, Cleric and Wizard should ALL have Craft Wondrous Item. Your Mystic Theurge should either take cleric, or 3 druid/3Wizard/ Mystic Theurge/Arcane Heirophant for the rest.
Maesto 06-04-07, 01:14 AM	The best six-man team varies by APL. At low APL, you want a cleric, two fighters, a wizard, a rogue, and a face. At mid-APL, you want two clerics, a fighter, a wizard, a rogue, and a face. At high APL, you want a cleric, a fighter, two wizards, and assorted fluff. Actually, drop the assorted fluff- just go for four wizards/sorcerors.
CdrcJsn 06-04-07, 01:39 AM	Bard are mathmatically overvalued for the +1 to hit and damage, versus a character that either puts out damage or controls. (as explained above) ?!? Are we using the same system? Can you explain the math you used for this? Like someone else pointed out, a single action during the first round of combat to give everyone a bonus is well worth it. Considering the optimal power attack value is usually 0-2, an across the board +2/+2 at 2nd level is amazing. And who said Bards can't do damage? At 9th level, my bard was able to do over 100pts of damage to a purple worm in one round with two handed power attack and Arcane Strike. Bards use Cleric/Rogue BAB, so they get less attacks than fighter types at certain levels, but a single round of buffs will push them over a comparable fighter's to hit bonus (and incidentally, buffing the other fighters in the group at the same time as well).
Gwumph 06-04-07, 01:53 AM	I just ran, a battle that had raging half-orc javelin throwers. They kicked ass as range guys, Massive amounts of damage.
frupton 06-04-07, 02:14 AM	I'm playing on a 6-man team that consists of: Fighter (cork) Ranger Cleric Sorceror Arcane Trickster Sublime Chord The party is level 6, so the last two are Rog2/Wiz4 and Brd5/Mar1 currently. +2/+2 bardsong contributes a significant amount of damage for everyone but the Sorceror -- even the Trickster benefits from the + to ranged touch attacks. By APL 10 it will be +3/+3. Bard covers all the face skills leaving the trickster free to max out the trapfinding. It's been ages since we missed a track, search, disable device, or knowledge check, as well as any social skill roll. Even though several players aren't particularly minmaxers, party balance has pulled us through every tough spot we've ever been in. Someone always has the right spell or skill for the job.
paigeoliver 06-04-07, 06:18 AM	I would go with two full casters. Wizard. Anything but an enchantment specialist. Cleric. Don't bother trying to be a combat cleric. I see clerics cast spells or use turning on the vast majority of their actions, particularly once they are 5th or 6th level. I'd go for the high Wisdom, dumping str or int. Rogue. Not an archer, not an archer, not an archer. Not a spring attacker either. Otherwise keep up the search and disable device. There are plenty of decent rogue builds, pick one. Big not so dumb fighter. Make sure your brute has a 13 Int so he can take combat expertise and things requiring it. Archer. Halfling archer on a dog and don't waste a feat on mounted archery. I would do a Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian and start as barbarian. Buff character. Half-elf or half-orc barbarian 1/marshall 4 to outcast champion back to marshall. This buff character can fight just fine and has buffs that don't use up his actions. Don't be tempted by the charisma aura at low level. Grab the dex aura, a combat aura that synergizes with the rest of the party, and then grab the intelligence aura. I play the heck out of marshals and the super diplomacy build is wasted. My highest marshal is 7th level now, doesn't have all the diplomacy synergies, didn't waste any feats on it, and has never failed a diplomacy check. Sure it is a fun mental exercise to build super diplomacy builds, but in actual play a marshall or bard who just puts a rank in it every level ends up also making all the checks and actually being useful at other things.
kenobi65 06-04-07, 09:35 AM	2) It's +2/+2 per person at second level (more with instrument access) Just to clarify the point...this is via casting Inspirational Boost before starting the Inspire Courage.
codyknotts 06-04-07, 11:55 AM	Regarding Bards, sorry if we sounded harsh, but one of the goals was to avoid a player that contributed after one to three rounds of spell casting. I was probably way too harsh on that point. I was relaying what was said when we built the guys from the group (I have personally played a bard/fighter btw) Anyways, Love the advice, it has been majorly helpful. Hope to hear more from everyone.
Mommy was an Orc 06-04-07, 12:45 PM	Regarding Bards, sorry if we sounded harsh, but one of the goals was to avoid a player that contributed after one to three rounds of spell casting. I was probably way too harsh on that point. I was relaying what was said when we built the guys from the group (I have personally played a bard/fighter btw) That's the mistake that is constantly made about Bards - Bards played well contribute from round 1. If your team doesn't understand that, it likely means one of three things: They didn't notice how easy combats seemed to go for them. A Bard who does Harmonize, Inspire Courage in Round 1, Haste and Inspire Greatness in round 2 will give the Fighters of the party an unbelievable boost(with Instrument access, that's +7 to hit, +4 damage at 9th level, not to mention the extra attack and other useful things). Unlike in a home game, in LG, the DM doesn't have the ability to change what encounters happen to match up better with the party. I'm not kidding when I say that my Bard has been responsible for 50% of the damage output of a party via Inspire Courage/Haste. You diluted the Bard too much with your Fighter levels. Bard 2/Fighter 4 is not a Bard. You played or built the Bard poorly - this happens an awful lot. If it isn't the first two, it likely is that.
CdrcJsn 06-04-07, 03:11 PM	Regarding Bards, sorry if we sounded harsh, but one of the goals was to avoid a player that contributed after one to three rounds of spell casting. And what is your mystic theurge gonna be doing? You already have a cleric and wiz in your group. The theurge just seems superfluous. Try putting an archer bard for that slot instead. Your group doesn't have an archer. buffing: inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness secondary arcane: glitterdust, haste, dispel magic, invisibility, dimension door secondary divine: cure wounds, insignia of healing, silence, freedom of movement Plus the spells are all at full caster level (unlike the theurge who needs two practiced spellcaster feats to remain competitive). Compare a theurge to a single classed bard on a level by level analysis. Side by side, the theurge basicaly sucks for 2/3rd of its playtime compared to a bard, reaching parity somewhere around 10th level. Even after that, the Bard brings a slew of things that the theurge simply can't match (face skills, buffing). I'm not saying that Theurges are bad. It just takes more effort to make it shine. Your comment about possibly taking up war weaver for the theurge makes me cringe. War Weaver is a powerful buffing class, but loses a caster level. Theurge is a versatile one. Combine the two and you have a character that should be played at APL minus 4 to be effective.
cycloptic_squirrel 06-04-07, 03:26 PM	That's it! A party of six healers! Genius! As I get most of my information these days from online comics or the back of cereal boxes, I guide you to the same source of enlightenment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0077.html)from which I made my own realization of the superiority of such a plan. (it'd be kinda fun to make a go of it, actually; I don't think my group would spring for it though... I suppose they at least have a modicum of sensibility. :rolleye2:) Assuming you wanted to go the more traditional route of building a powerful party, I'd suggest developing something of a strategy of dealing with the barbarian's low AC; if he's the only one with significantly low AC, intelligent or very wise creatures will target him much more than everyone else; on a similar note, high AC is great for a cork - but it won't matter too much if he's standing next to an almost guaranteed hit. What do you think about the idea of dropping the fighter and theurge and replacing them with a bardic build and a druid? You'll get some nature skills in there, still have a strong secondary source of healing, still have the secondary arcane spells, and though the druid might not be as good covering for a fighter naturally, an animal companion goes a long way, proper feat selection should cover the rest. By the time you get to higher levels, you'd have a third full level caster. Heck, take a fighter level or two if you feel it's needed; you still get high level spells. These are just suggestions of course - more important is that everyone is happy with their 'assigned' role and the character build for it. The party you suggested is by no means weak and should face no unsurmountable difficulties, given proper tactics. I'd much rather walk into the ruins with a party of healers in high spirits rather than a 'strong' party with one or two people dragging their feet or not expecting a good time. Sure, the party of healers probably won't leave the series with even half the original characters, but we'll have had fun (either that or someone was way too optimistic about the power of healers and mistakenly thought the party was anything but a suicide squad :P ).
Genghis Cohen 06-04-07, 08:58 PM	Six druids.That's what the NPC's call an "untiered encounter."
Franco Un-American 06-04-07, 11:57 PM	Consider this for an alternate heavy damage dealer; not quite as tough as yours, but much better on saves, which may be more important at high levels. I'm using one myself after advice from here, and it's worked so far in the low levels. Half-orc Str 18 Dex 10 Con 15 Int 6 Wis 12 Cha 10 worships Kelanen 1) Barbarian - Extra Rage 2) Fighter - Weapon Focus (Great Scimitar) 3) Fighter - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Great Scimitar), Power Attack 4) Bard - Con 16 5) Ranger 6) Bard - True Believer 7) Pious Templar 8) Exotic Weapon Master - Uncanny Blow, Str 19 9) Pious Templar - Reckless Rage 10) Pious Templar 11) Pious Templar - Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing) 12) Dragon Disciple - Improved Critical (Great Scimitar), Str 20 13) Dragon Disciple 14) Dragon Disciple 15) Dragon Disciple - Improved Initiative This guy's high strength offsets his loss of 2 BAB, and he's set up perfectly for Occult Slayer in the high level game. No Combat Brute/Shock Trooper, but damage is still considerable enough, and to my sensibilities the 17/7/11 base saves are more than worth it. If you still prefer your first idea, I'd recommend Knight over Hexblade for the hit points (literally change your AL to LG/LN just before you hit 15th, and change it back immediately after.
frupton 06-05-07, 01:58 AM	And what is your mystic theurge gonna be doing? You already have a cleric and wiz in your group. The theurge just seems superfluous. Try putting an archer bard for that slot instead. Your group doesn't have an archer. buffing: inspire courage, inspire competence, inspire greatness secondary arcane: glitterdust, haste, dispel magic, invisibility, dimension door secondary divine: cure wounds, insignia of healing, silence, freedom of movement Plus the spells are all at full caster level (unlike the theurge who needs two practiced spellcaster feats to remain competitive). Compare a theurge to a single classed bard on a level by level analysis. Side by side, the theurge basicaly sucks for 2/3rd of its playtime compared to a bard, reaching parity somewhere around 10th level. Even after that, the Bard brings a slew of things that the theurge simply can't match (face skills, buffing). I'm not saying that Theurges are bad. It just takes more effort to make it shine. Your comment about possibly taking up war weaver for the theurge makes me cringe. War Weaver is a powerful buffing class, but loses a caster level. Theurge is a versatile one. Combine the two and you have a character that should be played at APL minus 4 to be effective. I agree with this. Except the part about reaching parity somewhere around 10th level. :D At 11th level, the Bard is now a SubChord 1 and starts getting 5th level spells. That's Mass CLW or Greater Dispel, for example. Mystic Theurge won't get the former until level 12, and the latter until level 14. Theurge does become very potent at the highest levels, but I'm not sure it catches up to Sublime Chord within the LG level caps.
Drezden 06-05-07, 01:51 PM	The best parties are ones that focus on offense. This is especially true at higher levels. At high levels good PCs are so deadly that most fights are over in less than 2 rounds. I think it is a major mistake to focus on defensive, rather than offense. Now, of course, utility abilities and healing are important, so you need those. But, by and large, the more "damage dealing" PCs you have the better off you are going to be. One PCs who normally spends a round buffing the other PCs is extremely helpful and is absolutely worth it. This can be a bard, but it can also be a Cleric - there are some great Cleric party buffs. 2 Damage dealing (this can be BDF, archer, arcane blaster, etc.) PCs are sufficent to win almost any fight. If you get 4 or more, the fights are flat out boring. Seriously, a good party with 4 or 5 damage dealers and with good players (and that is even more important than characters) will destroy virtually any fight at APL12+ I think there are a lot of party mixes that work really well. Here is one that I have played with a lot: 1. Cleric - Buffer/Healer/Remover of Conditions - usually spends 1st round buffing, can heal a ton and has the spells to remove almost any condition that impacts party members (Healing Lorecall, Panacea, etc.) Amplifies damage with his buffs and contributes day long buffs (magic vestments and others). 2. Arcane Caster - Blaster/Utility/Battlefield Control - can effectively deliever large amounts of AOE damage or other negative conditions on bad guys; can control battlefield. Has utility spells to help party overcome obstacles (Mass Fly, Antimagic Field, See Invis., etc.) Contributes pre-combat buffs - GMW, Sonic Weapon, Stoneskin, etc. 3. BDF - optimized offensive-minded killing machine with Babarian levels and feats that work to increase damage potential, etc. AC not good, but with buffs can be respectable at times. 4. Spellsword - well designed and played front liner who does just slightly less damage than BDF, but is much harder to hit and contributes utility spells when needed. Nice backup on utilty function - contributes more pre-combat buffs. 5. Archer - optimized offensive-mided ranged killing machine. Has Uber Bow and delivers boatloads of damage with full attacks every round. 6. Rogue - auto finds and disables every trap. Auto tumbles around and through enemies for flank. Has staggering strike and Ring of Blinking to get sneak attack more and to make it very useful. Other combos work very well too. It just helps to be flexible and have a mix of ranged and up front combat flexibility. Daren
Sieylianna 06-05-07, 06:42 PM	Nevermind. Ed
Timlagor 06-06-07, 02:48 AM	My favourite idea was the Arcane party. Any 6 arcane characters could probably manage if they're individually optimised and play to their strengths but ideally something like: Pal/Sor/Dragon Disciple Fighter/Wizard/Spellsword/EK Gnome (Trivial knowledge) Bard/... Grey Elf (Int20) Wizard/.../Io7V Sorceror (perhaps Sacred Excorcist with Sacred Healing -Ruathar if it's about) Cleric of Boccob (or MyTheurge starting Cleric) [EDIT: ..oops I forgot the Arcane Trickster] Never fail a knowledge check. Never fail a Search Check Never fail a Diplomacy Check Huge power at high levels and plenty to get through the low levels.
kjenks 06-06-07, 07:44 AM	Wild Shape fighter - This type of druid gets in there and mixes it up in animal shape. Monk levels and the Natural Spell feat are great for these guys. The LG campaign's recent change to Polymorph and Wild Shape and the loss of Master of Many Forms make this type much less powerful than they used to be, but they are still more powerful than many other characters. Summoner - The summoner fights by proxy, using his critters to attack, to be targets/speed bumps, and to defend. My level 5 Bright Lands druid has Augment Summoning. He can cast Summon Desert Ally spells in addition to the usual Summon Nature's Ally and the yummy cheese that is Summon Dire Hawk. His "herd of cats" spell is lots of fun: Summon Desert Ally III with Augment Summoning, bringing 2-5 pouncing servals to the fight. Animal companion with druid cohort - This type of druid also fights by proxy, using his animal companion as a tank and casting healing, buff or summoning spells to help the critter. This type of druid often takes Arcane Hierophant and/or Beastmaster levels and selects the (LG limited) Natural Bond feat. Mounted combat - Druids have ridable animal companions and both Ride and Handle Animal as class skills. Since the animal companion advances with the druid, it probably won't be killed in the first hit, which is the common fate of warhorses and riding dogs at mid-to-high APLs. Mounted lance charges are the mounted druid's forte, but mounted archery is a good backup. Stone plate armor (Races of Stone) and hide shields (Sandstorm) are now Open access, giving the mounted druid some mighty fine armor. The build here is often fighter 1/druid 14, but I see a lot of advantages in the Hospitalier prestige class instead of fighter 1 for lance proficiency and a bonus feat. LG now has Open access to riding straps and the nifty masterwork saddle, giving bonuses to Ride checks. If you can find access to Riding Boots (DMG2, 12k), you can get a free Ride-by Attack feat. My half-orc druid 2/fighter 1 rides a heavy horse animal companion (for now; dire bat later) and wields a mean lance. Using Share Spells with the Beast Claws spell turns the heavy horse's secondary natural weapon hooves into primary natural weapon claws for 1 hour/level. Archer druid - It's all about the bow. This type of druid often includes ranger or fighter levels. Riding a dire bat animal companion makes an excellent archery platform; you can hover over the battlefield and shoot with impunity, most of the time. Spot and Listen are class skills, and the Listening Lorecall spell gives blindsense and blindsight, so these guys can see and shoot almost anything. Blaster druid - This type of druid casts spells that inflict damage on the enemy. Druids have a pretty good selection of damage spells, including Arc of Lightning, Flame Strike and even the lowly Produce Flame. My deep halfling druid uses Produce Flame with metamagic feats and rods (Empower, Extend, Energy Sub (Acid), and Quicken as soon as I can get back to Geoff to pick up my regional access rod). Face druid - Diplomacy is a class skill for druids and they can do wonders with Wild Empathy. Tank druid - A Gnome gnome with Titan Fighting (RS) and Heavy Armor Proficiency makes a mighty fine tank, using Flame Blade for melee. Really high AC, pretty good damage, almost never misses, and is a full-caster druid. You can mix and match from these archetypes to get a really good six-woman team. Now I'm not saying this is the best mix at the table, but it sure would be fun. Think about the army of minis on the battlemat as six druids, six animal companions and all of their summoned critters come marching, flying, crawling and slithering into battle.
Herrbard 06-06-07, 08:12 AM	Think about the army of minis on the battlemat as six druids, six animal companions and all of their summoned critters come marching, flying, crawling and slithering into battle. I'm thinking about it... :bigeyes: and it's giving me nightmares! Since I'm probably the unlucky DM that would get stuck running this table! DM: OK, let's see, round 1, initiative card number 32, the summoned dire weasel. Who's got the dire weasel again?
Hariman 06-06-07, 10:32 PM	Now I'm not saying this is the best mix at the table, but it sure would be fun. Think about the army of minis on the battlemat as six druids, six animal companions and all of their summoned critters come marching, flying, crawling and slithering into battle. No no, I won't argue. I've been at tables with multiple druids summoning to bolster the party. It kicks A**! With a good summoner or two in the party, battles become a lot easier as the summoned critters inflict and take damage for the party. Not to mention the healing you save at the end of the battle. But imagine the effect a Dispel Magic or a Greater Dispel Magic would have on all of those summons? Or maybe a few castings of Dispel Magic or Antimagic Field. But yeah, it would be great to see once or twice. Hariman PS: If you take an Iconic fighter/cleric/wizard/rogue party, adding a bard and a druid as numbers five and six is a great strategy. Bard uses bardsong whenever possible, druid companion fights, the druid fills in any of several roles. You can do far worse than bard/druid.
Reylance 06-07-07, 03:54 PM	My ideal six person party would be: Very strong and tough BDF Strong archer Wizard Cleric TWF melee rogue One of: Arcane Hierophant Bard Cork Battlefield control fighter The BDF and archer are both good for taking down enemies fast. The wizard can use battlefield control spells to isolate bad enemies, area of effect spells to destroy many weaker foes, or targeted spells against single enemies. The cleric can offer an initial buff, then healing and aid as needed. The rogue also contributes in combat, or can UMD buffs or cork as needed. Any of the other characters contributes by buffing or occupying the enemies until everyone else finishes the job.
katrick 06-07-07, 04:59 PM	My best six man team, is the one that works together, realising their own and others weaknesses and overcoming them. This will get you through any LG scenario. Having a Lady always helps(Belt of Gender Control anyone) Having played LG since 592 I really haven't seen the "face" angle, though bards can certainly deliver the goods when pushed.(generally 5 others get upset at not being able to do their thing, especially when they roll 54 with the -10) katrick
Hariman 06-08-07, 01:30 AM	My best six man team, is the one that works together, realising their own and others weaknesses and overcoming them. This will get you through any LG scenario. Having a Lady always helps(Belt of Gender Control anyone) Having played LG since 592 I really haven't seen the "face" angle, though bards can certainly deliver the goods when pushed.(generally 5 others get upset at not being able to do their thing, especially when they roll 54 with the -10) katrick *Blinks* Can't argue here either. I've had a character get enslaved repeatedly because of party fragmentation. And yes, the other players, especially the BDF, didn't like "missing" combat when the bard/cleric/barbarian Diplomacy checked our way out of some fights. But we did have fun kicking bad guy booty when the "mod finale" combat arrived.
GrahamWills 06-08-07, 03:37 PM	Six Druids? Oooo. A whole party of people failing reflex saves. At mid levels, I like a marshal, warmage, arcane generalist and 3 barbarian/fighter/templar/paladin whatevers. Basically 2H power attackers built for hits and damage. Everyone takes improved init. Marshal improves their initiative to 10+. We go first, warmage drops an empowered fireball on the druids. Arcanist drops a regular one (if anyone has access, rod of lesser maximise will round out that attack nicely). Marshal grants a move action to three three BDFs who can then close and kill off the druids who made their reflex saves. The basic goal of the party is to take out one third to a half the opposition on round one. Everyone except the arcanist has enough hits to survive the next round and then it's just mopping up. Melee is clearly no issue. At rage the warmage and arcanist are the main people, but the fighters can help. The arcanist is there for utility. No divine because healing comes best out of a stick. No rogue because they die too easily. Marshal is your face character. Biggest failure is in investigate mods ... not much searching and gather info happening here.
lunarfish 06-08-07, 04:41 PM	Graham, I think you missed out on your lack of healing. A wand of Cure Light Wounds is only going to go so far. And what happens when you run out halfway through the dungeon, or you need in-combat healing, or worse, Delay Death? Plus, a wizard's only got so many Fireballs in a day. A warmage has more, but even a warmage's resources are limited. What about fire-resistant or fire-immune enemies? You need some kind of divine caster in that mix somewhere.
Rerednaw 06-08-07, 05:01 PM	...Tank druid - A Gnome gnome with Titan Fighting (RS) and Heavy Armor Proficiency makes a mighty fine tank, using Flame Blade for melee. Really high AC, pretty good damage, almost never misses, and is a full-caster druid. ... Off-topic. ======== Out of curiousity what is the cookie-cutter gnome tank druid build? The Titan Fighting requires Dodge and Dex 13, with Heavy Armor Prof, that's all his feats until 9th right? And as for heavy armor...I'm assuming your using some kind of Wood Shape + Iron Wood + Craft check. How is that adjucated in LG, since there isn't any (non-magic item) crafting? Or is there Darkwood Plate? Dragonhide access (never seen this)?
kjenks 06-08-07, 09:34 PM	Gnome druid Dex 13 (needed for Dodge) 1 Druid 1 Heavy Armor Proficiency 2 Druid 2 3 Druid 3 Craft Magic Arms and Armor 4 Druid 4 5 Druid 5 6 Druid 6 Dodge 7 Druid 7 8 Druid 8 9 Druid 9 Titan Fighting (RS) 10 Druid 10 11 Druid 11 12 Druid 12 Quicken Spell 13 Druid 13 14 Druid 14 15 Druid 15 Exotic Shield Proficiency (Rider's shield) Wear: MW Stone plate (Races of Stone) 900 gp +6 armor bonus to AC MW Hide shield (Sandstorm) 200 gp +3 shield bonus to AC, -1 attacks, can take total cover like Tower Shield You're AC 21 by level 2. Buy a Ring of Protection +1 and an Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (Open access) and you're AC 23 by level 3. Later on, if you want to use your neck slot for something else, give the Amulet of Natural Armor +1 to your animal companion. Craft Magic Arms and Armor to upgrade your armor as you can afford it. When you have your armor and shield up to +5 and your animal companion's barding up as far as you want to go, retrain this feat to something else (remembering to pay for the difference in price, which you can probably afford at level 12 or so). Ditch the Stone Plate when you get access to Dragonhide Full Plate. With Titan Fighting, you have a +4 Dodge bonus to AC vs. a medium or larger opponent. By riding your animal companion and making an easy DC 15 Ride check, you can get a +4 cover bonus to AC. Don't forget Riding Straps (Races of Stone) and MW skill kit (Ride) for bonuses on your Ride checks. Barkskin is your friend. So is Thornskin (SpC). At higher levels, check out Tortoise Shell (SpC). There are also some really good NONC spells for a druid tank. You should have an AC in the 30s by level 9. For offense, try Produce Flame and Flame Blade to make melee touch attacks. Share Beastclaws (1 hour/level) and Bull's Strength with your animal companion.
Potmos 06-09-07, 06:28 PM	Six Druids? Oooo. A whole party of people failing reflex saves. [contrived circumstances snipped] So, a few questions here: 1) Where are the animal companions of all the 6 druids? 2) Why are all the druids clustered up into fireball formation? If it's outside, then there should be a lot of space between them. If it's inside, what are they all doing trapped in what must be a 20x20 room when you ambush them? 3) How the heck did you get a drop on the druids? Even with a +10 to your move silently/hide coming from motivate dexterity (a +6 or +7 is more likely), unless the party is wearing armour without an armour check penalty of any kind, you probably aren't going to be getting much more than a total of 25 on your lowest roll (and I'm being really generous here). My own druid has only a +16 to spot and listen before buffs at 9th level (11 ranks in each, +5 from Wis). I've seen a lot better than that. Your lowest roll has to not only beat the rolls of each of the 6 druids (taking distance into account) but also the rolls of all 6 animal companions who all have spot and listen as 'class' skills. Unless this encounter happens on an vast featureless plain, there's a pretty good chance they are going to know you're coming. A prepared druid is a terrifying thing. 6 prepared druids is the stuff of legend. And, you talk about a party of people who will fail their reflex saves...you've got 6 people with reflex as an 'off' save (minus any of the pious templar ranger builds), unless your marshal throws up his 'watchful eye' aura. How's this for a contrived circumstance: your party of 6 is ambushed in the wilderness by 6 druids, all of which hit your party with arcs of lightning. your marshal, your warmage and your arcanist make their saves and still die. your three front liners then get eaten by 6 animal companions, ranging from brown bears and dire wolves with extra hit dice, up to dire lions and polar bears. Now, my scenario is as silly and contrived as yours. In all honesty my belief is the same as that quoted by katrick My best six man team, is the one that works together, realising their own and others weaknesses and overcoming them. This will get you through any LG scenario. Well said! Well said indeed! Biggest failure is in investigate mods ... not much searching and gather info happening here. Well, searching, traps, gather info, high level dangerous undead, and any meaningful healing during combat. Or do you have some other way of healing your front-liners when they've taken over 100 points of damage in a round of combat? Nonetheless, your group is indeed a powerhouse when things aren't stacked against them. I enjoy arcanists because of their abilities. I just always seem to be saying "drat, I wish I had taken [spell perfectly appropriate to the situtation] today!" I really should look at Mage of the Arcane Order. Potmos
GrahamWills 06-11-07, 11:06 AM	Graham, I think you missed out on your lack of healing. A wand of Cure Light Wounds is only going to go so far. And what happens when you run out halfway through the dungeon, or you need in-combat healing, or worse, Delay Death? Plus, a wizard's only got so many Fireballs in a day. A warmage has more, but even a warmage's resources are limited. What about fire-resistant or fire-immune enemies? You need some kind of divine caster in that mix somewhere. A wand of Lesser Vigor works out at less than 1.5 gp / hp. So if the entire team needs 200 points healing in a mod, that comes out to 50pg each. And it's a rare mid-level mod where you need that much healing with a first-strike death team. You DO miss in-combat healing, no question. Fighters should have cure serious/critical in their heward's for emergencies, but in practise it seems that I have observed that the BDFs and arcanes are not the ones most likelyto need it, so the emergency potions won't be needed as much, I would think. Not sure why you think fire is the only option above. The wamage gets pretty much all types of damage; the arcane has regualr choices which can mean trouble sometimes, but I see no way a divine helps that. One reasonable idea is to have the arcanaist an enchanter, so he will make his will saves and can re-dominate the BDFs who will inevitably fall under the vampire's sway ... Another nice feature isthat then you have a plan for all creatures. Low will saves? Tasha them. Low reflex save? Blast em. Low fort save? BDFs rip em apart. Re: Delay Death. Isn't it a bit sad that this spell is rated so necessary? It's a spell designed to fix the problem that even high levels die at -10. Since hit points are an abstract thing, not related perfectly to damage taken, the obvious fix would be to make high level characters die at more negative values, rather than hack on a spell that makes the game way less atmospheric and fun. Players should die when they hit -10-3*BAB or something. Anythign really. Then Delay Death wouldn't be as needed.
GrahamWills 06-11-07, 11:22 AM	So, a few questions here: 1) Where are the animal companions of all the 6 druids? 2) Why are all the druids clustered up into fireball formation? If it's outside, then there should be a lot of space between them. If it's inside, what are they all doing trapped in what must be a 20x20 room when you ambush them? 3) How the heck did you get a drop on the druids? ... your party of 6 is ambushed in the wilderness by 6 druids, all of which hit your party with arcs of lightning. 1) Hanging around waiting for the druid's initiative to kick in. When they get to go, they get their attacks. Recall this is mid-level, not high-level, so we're talking bears and apes. No pouncing dire tigers. 2) 6 druids + 6 animal companions = a lot of targets. All in fireball location? Nope. How many do the arcanists have to get? 2 druids each plus some animals? I don't think it's a first round total kill, but at mid-levels the druids will probably be summoning first round and with the initiative bonus there's an excellent chance that summoning might never end up finishing. Or do the druids attack the BDFs? 3) The scenario I described was not surprise. It was standard generic "you both encounter each other in a dungeon and no-one is surprised". That is the default D&D encounter. I wasn't looking for special circumstances. > ... arc of lightning ... At higher levels I don't know what sort of group works best. I was going for mid levels, as stated in my post. For the record, if a group of six tenth level druids surprises my 8th level party in the wilderness, yes, it's death. Actually, one of the more amusing things about the all druids group is that it is at it's worst when faving Dragons in a Dungeon. It's kind of anti-iconic :)
Potmos 06-11-07, 01:27 PM	1) Hanging around waiting for the druid's initiative to kick in. When they get to go, they get their attacks. Recall this is mid-level, not high-level, so we're talking bears and apes. No pouncing dire tigers. Okay, so we come down from 10th level to 6th and 7th level characters. (I guess it's just a difference of opinion, but I don't consider 10th level to be 'high'. I consider it mid-level. I wonder what other people consider mid-level? Watch in amazement as I derail the thread with that comment... :) 2) 6 druids + 6 animal companions = a lot of targets. All in fireball location? Nope. How many do the arcanists have to get? 2 druids each plus some animals? I don't think it's a first round total kill, but at mid-levels the druids will probably be summoning first round and with the initiative bonus there's an excellent chance that summoning might never end up finishing. Or do the druids attack the BDFs? Assuming you win initiative (and you probably will with the bonuses you've got), it would be a very dumb group of druids who decide that after being fireballed twice it would be good to start a full-round summoning spell to let it happen again. Instead, depending on the terrain the druids have a variety of options, ranging from direct damage spells up to battlefield control with defensive options in between. Also, at 6th level, your two fireballs are only doing (on average) 21 and 31 points of damage respectively. Animal companions who save will evade, and the druids will be badly scorched but probably not dead (except for the poor guy who only took a 12 CON and failed both his saves). Then your front-liners have to get through the animal companions, and that's easier said than done. 3) The scenario I described was not surprise. It was standard generic "you both encounter each other in a dungeon and no-one is surprised". That is the default D&D encounter. I wasn't looking for special circumstances. I guess that's the default D&D encounter, but it's been such a long time since I've actually run into it that I don't even think about it anymore, except as a special case. > ... arc of lightning ... At higher levels I don't know what sort of group works best. I was going for mid levels, as stated in my post. remember, a druid gets arc of lightning as a 4th level spell, so it only takes a 7th level caster. Heck, you could face a single druid as the APL +3 encounter in an APL 4 mod... For the record, if a group of six tenth level druids surprises my 8th level party in the wilderness, yes, it's death. Doesn't even have to be 10th level druids, could be a bunch of 7th level druids. Of course, it just shows how powerful surprise can be, and how important it can be to go first in initiative. You spring surprise on them, and bad things happen as well. Actually, one of the more amusing things about the all druids group is that it is at it's worst when faving Dragons in a Dungeon. It's kind of anti-iconic :) Brilliant! I love it! :D Potmos still playing my druid that I started back in year 1 with the mod "Dragonscales at Morningtide". He's finally reached 9th level with over 60 ARs (and only 1 death along the way).
copper_wyrmling 06-11-07, 08:30 PM	Personally, my favorite parties at high level are the ones that go sorcerer / sorcerer / wizard / wizard / wizard / arcane trickster, or some approximation of that (swapping in a bard is great so long as they're not a bard built solely to support melee fighters; in these parties I'm playing my sorcerer with UMD and Diplomacy, so we have out-of-combat healing and a party face anyway). I realize I'm in a minority here, but my experience with such parties has been that enough arcane magic easily compensates for any other weaknesses ;) Admittedly, though, the six-druid party is probably stronger. I'd expect either of them to stomp pretty much any LG module at APL 12+, given smart players.
lunarfish 06-11-07, 11:55 PM	I think a party of six arcanes would crush the six druids past about 13th level. 6th and 7th level Wiz/Sorc spells are nuts. At high-APL games, my ideal party would be something along the lines of: Wizard, Sorcerer, Gish, Arcane Trickster, Bard (possibly a bardic gish build, or perhaps a Sublime Chord), Arcane Hierophant. That way, you have two (potentially three depending on the bard's build) melee threats, two solid blasters, two solid utility casters, and one healer/divine buffer, a trapfinder, and one support caster/secondary healer. The only thing you'd really lack vs. having a cleric would be GMW+Magic Vestment, and the wizzie can just take Arcane Disciple: Nobility to cover that base. In summary: arcanists are crazy good - even surpassing Animal Companions and their cohorts eventually.
Lomiat 06-12-07, 01:08 AM	Personally, my favorite parties at high level are the ones that go sorcerer / sorcerer / wizard / wizard / wizard / arcane trickster, or some approximation of that (swapping in a bard is great so long as they're not a bard built solely to support melee fighters; in these parties I'm playing my sorcerer with UMD and Diplomacy, so we have out-of-combat healing and a party face anyway). I realize I'm in a minority here, but my experience with such parties has been that enough arcane magic easily compensates for any other weaknesses ;) Admittedly, though, the six-druid party is probably stronger. I'd expect either of them to stomp pretty much any LG module at APL 12+, given smart players. I just like arcanists at high APLs because they speed the adventures along (at least, once you get past the Divinations and the Commune -- er, assuming your arcanist is a Divine Oracle). I mean, consider how horrible it would be if you played APL 16 with an all-cleric party. Why, to complete a two-round adventure online, it might take something like 16 hours! But if you played the same adventure with an arcanist at a slightly lower APL, the combats in the adventure might never last more than half a round. All completely theoretical speculation, of course... ((And Latz, wherever you are, I'm sure you'll get another chance to kill my wizard. Someday!))
Lomiat 06-12-07, 01:17 AM	I think a party of six arcanes would crush the six druids past about 13th level. 6th and 7th level Wiz/Sorc spells are nuts. At high-APL games, my ideal party would be something along the lines of: Wizard, Sorcerer, Gish, Arcane Trickster, Bard (possibly a bardic gish build, or perhaps a Sublime Chord), Arcane Hierophant. That way, you have two (potentially three depending on the bard's build) melee threats, two solid blasters, two solid utility casters, and one healer/divine buffer, a trapfinder, and one support caster/secondary healer. The only thing you'd really lack vs. having a cleric would be GMW+Magic Vestment, and the wizzie can just take Arcane Disciple: Nobility to cover that base. In summary: arcanists are crazy good - even surpassing Animal Companions and their cohorts eventually. Interesting, I'd figure that you, of all people, might leave room for a sneaky rogue-type guy in the ideal party. Arcane Trickster, maybe, but an Arcane Trickster's no maxed-out Shadowdancer. Furthermore, I would have expected you to give some respect to the BDFs, especially since in our gaming experience they continue to provide 75% or better of all offensive damage in a module (and most of the freaking CON damage). I don't have the post before me to reference at the moment, but I remember that someone posted earlier in this thread that his "ideal" party composition varied by APL, and I pretty much agreed. Early, you want a bunch of BDFs and someone to heal them. Mid-level, more spellcasting, mostly divine. High-level, nearly all spellcasting, with the balance shifting from divine to arcane. Nonetheless, I think there are several roles that are important to fill in a 6-PC party: 1) BDF - dishes out and soaks up melee damage 2) Battlefield control caster 3) Healer 4) Ranged damage I'm sorely tempted to put some other roles in that "necessary" list, but those are the only ones I see as truly necessary in the majority of LG mods. Runners-up include: 5) Trapfinder rogue 6) Scout-type 7) Face 8) Buff-meister (bard or someone who focuses on making the party better, especially to provide some defensive options: Protection from Evil, Greater Invisibility, Mass Conviction, Delay Death, Recitation, Heroism, etc.) But, yeah, back to the main point, here, six druids = a lot of minis... Yikes!
copper_wyrmling 06-12-07, 07:11 AM	I just like arcanists at high APLs because they speed the adventures along (at least, once you get past the Divinations and the Commune -- er, assuming your arcanist is a Divine Oracle). I mean, consider how horrible it would be if you played APL 16 with an all-cleric party. Why, to complete a two-round adventure online, it might take something like 16 hours! But if you played the same adventure with an arcanist at a slightly lower APL, the combats in the adventure might never last more than half a round. All completely theoretical speculation, of course... Hehehe. You did see my pleas for an arcane caster for that game, yes? There's a reason I'm much happier to play high APL with no divine than with no arcane... The length of those combats also had something to do with the way I was playing Yolande - I default to the medic/support role in parties with multiple BDFs and few casters. I've played through mods where Yol ended all the combats within a round, but they were mostly either games with no frontline fighters, or games where most of the opponents were undead. (In the two-round game I played before that one, Greater Turning ended two of the three encounters inside the first round.) I don't think you actually need a tank to soak damage, or a healer, for that matter, at high APL: the games I've played with no tank and no healing have all been pretty easy, even in mods with rather tough reputations (because no tank + no healing = everyone's an arcane caster, i.e. nothing ever gets close enough to hurt the PCs...)
Lomiat 06-12-07, 08:18 AM	I don't think you actually need a tank to soak damage, or a healer, for that matter, at high APL: the games I've played with no tank and no healing have all been pretty easy, even in mods with rather tough reputations (because no tank + no healing = everyone's an arcane caster, i.e. nothing ever gets close enough to hurt the PCs...) I've played mid- to high-APL mods where we lacked a tank, and the arcanists had a pretty rough time beating the arcane ooze. I've played a retired IUZ mod where the monsters included golems in their own personal antimagic fields; we beat that one solely because the rest of the party focused on buffing and supporting the one tank who was playing down. The elementals from the COR special would easily have killed a couple arcanists a round if they'd been able to get past our tanks; we didn't have Forcecage at our table (admittedly, APL 12 might not be "high" APL, but I've played with the same party numerous times at APL 14). And, of course, at high-APLs healers tend to repair damage other than HP damage, and they tend to cast Delay Death a lot. Or, as with the COR special, multiple Heals with Divine Ward, to the tune of over 1000 HPs of healing, and most in the same combat.
codyknotts 06-12-07, 10:02 AM	Hehehe. You did see my pleas for an arcane caster for that game, yes? There's a reason I'm much happier to play high APL with no divine than with no arcane... The length of those combats also had something to do with the way I was playing Yolande - I default to the medic/support role in parties with multiple BDFs and few casters. I've played through mods where Yol ended all the combats within a round, but they were mostly either games with no frontline fighters, or games where most of the opponents were undead. (In the two-round game I played before that one, Greater Turning ended two of the three encounters inside the first round.) I don't think you actually need a tank to soak damage, or a healer, for that matter, at high APL: the games I've played with no tank and no healing have all been pretty easy, even in mods with rather tough reputations (because no tank + no healing = everyone's an arcane caster, i.e. nothing ever gets close enough to hurt the PCs...) Balance makes the most sense. I have seen the modules as a DM that you see, where there is no need for a healer or a tank. I have also seen the modules where I can get to and rip apart one arcanist in the first round (death) without a delay death to save it. I have seen the modules where the spellcasters were ineffective (oozes, living spells) and that is ugly for the spellcasters. One problem is that at higher level, many people don't seem to care if they die, over the cap gold and such and the monetary penalty mean that you not hurt much. I believe this is why Sheldomar Valley adventures are written so frequently with other penalties (like loss of hand, arm, fingers and con) to catch the players that "want" to die. Our normal party that I DM, has built characters to not die. The result High AC fighters, high save guys, clerics, and long long fights. But they are hard to kill. I also think that team wizard gets slaughtered at level one (remember builds and party are for all levels, not just high). Traps kill one of them a mod. BDF of the enemy rip them when they are blasting one and so on and so on. Levels one and two would be horrible for them in most modules.
Sieylianna 06-12-07, 12:19 PM	I've played a retired IUZ mod where the monsters included golems in their own personal antimagic fields; we beat that one solely because the rest of the party focused on buffing and supporting the one tank who was playing down. I played that one at APL 16 in a party with three 17th level arcanes and no BDF. It was challenging, but we prevailed with no serious injuries. Ed
Lomiat 06-12-07, 06:30 PM	I played that one at APL 16 in a party with three 17th level arcanes and no BDF. It was challenging, but we prevailed with no serious injuries. Ed Okay, call me curious. How did you deal with the golems? (Not that it couldn't be done, but it's interesting to hear how your party approached the situation.)
Genghis Cohen 06-12-07, 08:16 PM	This is like assembling a basketball team. 5 centers is not all that great, and 5 point guards won't cut it either. Tank - You need a tank. I'd go with a human spiked cheese fighter with this build: Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Barbarian 2/ Occult Slayer 1/ EWM 2/ Occult Slayer 4/ Fighter 2 Healing - Radiant Servant of Velveeta Arcane - Gray elven min/maxed wizard 5 or 6/... / Initiate of the Stracchino Veil More arcane and locksmith - Rogue 1/ Wizard / Unseen Sirene A little bit more arcane and motivational speaker - Bard 6/ Marshall 3/ Briebender 1/ Exemplar 1/ More Bard ...and the class that lactose intolerant people can't stand... Druid - Just druid. No multiclassing. We'll do a summoner with the Four Holy Summoning Feats of Spell Focus (Conjuration,) Augment Summoning, Rapid Spell and Metamuenster School Focus. And that wraps up my take on LG's equivalent of the 1992 USA Olympic Basketball Team.
copper_wyrmling 06-12-07, 08:20 PM	I've played mid- to high-APL mods where we lacked a tank, and the arcanists had a pretty rough time beating the arcane ooze. I've played a retired IUZ mod where the monsters included golems in their own personal antimagic fields; we beat that one solely because the rest of the party focused on buffing and supporting the one tank who was playing down. The elementals from the COR special would easily have killed a couple arcanists a round if they'd been able to get past our tanks; we didn't have Forcecage at our table (admittedly, APL 12 might not be "high" APL, but I've played with the same party numerous times at APL 14). I must confess I haven't seen the stats for an arcane ooze. Most spell-absorption abilities only work on spells that allow SR, but there may well be some out there that are different. I played that retired Iuz mod too (if it's the one I'm thinking of - Portal of Hate?), in a party with four arcanes, a tank and a healer (my cleric, playing up three levels because the other players wouldn't play unless they had healing). My cleric was completely ineffective in those combats except for out-of-combat healing, because the only person who got hurt was the tank fighter, and he went to negatives before my cleric ever got an action and then was unconscious inside an AMF (she doesn't fight well in an AMF, and she didn't have any instantaneous conjuration (creation) spells that would ignore the AMF). From memory, the arcanists ended up killing the ones without AMFs and then using multiple walls of force to box the others in, then teleported the whole party past the walls of force and kept going (after managing to rescue the fighter by drawing the guardian away from him with a threat to the temple it was guarding). Sure, the guardians could've chased us, but the walls of force bought a couple of minutes and that was all we needed - also, they were unable to fly iirc, so we had a big maneuverability advantage. There are battlefield control spells other than forcecage that work well on those elementals from the Core Special - see solbergb's posts about that fight, where his sorc used walls of force and solid fog to lock them down pretty effectively. And, of course, at high-APLs healers tend to repair damage other than HP damage, and they tend to cast Delay Death a lot. Or, as with the COR special, multiple Heals with Divine Ward, to the tune of over 1000 HPs of healing, and most in the same combat. Sure, but in the parties that are really arcane-dominated, I've rarely seen that sort of healing become necessary. I'm not saying strong in-combat healing isn't nice, but I don't think it's actually really necessary at high APLs.
Genghis Cohen 06-12-07, 08:22 PM	I think a party of six arcanes would crush the six druids past about 13th level.I think that it would depend on who wins initiative. If a druid wins initiative and pops a Summon Nature's Ally VII for an augmented air elemental (hello whirlwind!), the arcanes will be fighting an uphill battle.
control freak 06-13-07, 01:30 PM	6 summoning clerics.... 2 rounds later the board is flooded and you have tons of healing
lunarfish 06-13-07, 06:07 PM	Interesting, I'd figure that you, of all people, might leave room for a sneaky rogue-type guy in the ideal party. Arcane Trickster, maybe, but an Arcane Trickster's no maxed-out Shadowdancer. You are right - an arcane trickster is no maxed-out shadowdancer. It's better, and an unseen seer is better than either one. The arcane trickster build I was referencing would've been something along the lines of Rog1/Wiz4/Usr6/AT4. Just enough trickster to get Impromptu Sneak Attack, but the rest in the far-superior unseen seer class. Also, with almost-full casting and a pair of really useful advanced learnings (probably Listening Lorecall and Grave Strike). Caster levels are simply vastly superior to levels in non-spellcasting classes. Any build that has full or near full spellcasting progression will be better than a build without it.
Drezden 06-13-07, 08:36 PM	Whirlwind is a joke against most high level arcane casters - DC 15+spell level to cast a spell. Whoopee - automake that. I think a party of 6 arcanes would beat 6 druids at high level with all other things being equal. That is, character effectiveness, player effectiveness, items purchased, etc. Of course, all of those things never are equal and would contribute as to which side would win much more than the generic differences between Druids and arcane casters. Daren I think that it would depend on who wins initiative. If a druid wins initiative and pops a Summon Nature's Ally VII for an augmented air elemental (hello whirlwind!), the arcanes will be fighting an uphill battle.
Drezden 06-13-07, 08:41 PM	I also have not seen any monsters that absorb non-SR spells. I don't think there are monsters any more that arcane dominated tables couldn't handle - the Golem weakness is a relic of older editions. However, my "ideal" table would likely have no more than 3 arcanes. I would rather have a buffer/healing Cleric and 2 BDF/Damage dealers than 3 additional arcanes. It is just easier to buff up the BDFs and turn them into killing machines. IME a table like that would defeat combats easier than one with all 6 arcanes. Daren I must confess I haven't seen the stats for an arcane ooze. Most spell-absorption abilities only work on spells that allow SR, but there may well be some out there that are different. I played that retired Iuz mod too (if it's the one I'm thinking of - Portal of Hate?), in a party with four arcanes, a tank and a healer (my cleric, playing up three levels because the other players wouldn't play unless they had healing). My cleric was completely ineffective in those combats except for out-of-combat healing, because the only person who got hurt was the tank fighter, and he went to negatives before my cleric ever got an action and then was unconscious inside an AMF (she doesn't fight well in an AMF, and she didn't have any instantaneous conjuration (creation) spells that would ignore the AMF). From memory, the arcanists ended up killing the ones without AMFs and then using multiple walls of force to box the others in, then teleported the whole party past the walls of force and kept going (after managing to rescue the fighter by drawing the guardian away from him with a threat to the temple it was guarding). Sure, the guardians could've chased us, but the walls of force bought a couple of minutes and that was all we needed - also, they were unable to fly iirc, so we had a big maneuverability advantage. There are battlefield control spells other than forcecage that work well on those elementals from the Core Special - see solbergb's posts about that fight, where his sorc used walls of force and solid fog to lock them down pretty effectively. Sure, but in the parties that are really arcane-dominated, I've rarely seen that sort of healing become necessary. I'm not saying strong in-combat healing isn't nice, but I don't think it's actually really necessary at high APLs.
Genghis Cohen 06-13-07, 08:56 PM	Whirlwind is a joke against most high level arcane casters - DC 15+spell level to cast a spell. Whoopee - automake that. I think a party of 6 arcanes would beat 6 druids at high level with all other things being equal. That is, character effectiveness, player effectiveness, items purchased, etc. Of course, all of those things never are equal and would contribute as to which side would win much more than the generic differences between Druids and arcane casters. DarenDaren, The point is that the Arcanes lose an entire round casting Dim Door and their quickened spell (which won't be devestating) while the other 5 druids summon an army. Russ...
Drezden 06-13-07, 09:02 PM	Why do they have to cast Dim Door? They can cast any spell that have available with a automatic concentration check. Daren Daren, The point is that the Arcanes lose an entire round casting Dim Door and their quickened spell (which won't be devestating) while the other 5 druids summon an army. Russ...
Genghis Cohen 06-13-07, 09:05 PM	Why do they have to cast Dim Door? They can cast any spell that have available with a automatic concentration check. DarenSo what do they cast? Can they target anything from inside a whirlwind?
lunarfish 06-13-07, 09:18 PM	Daren, The point is that the Arcanes lose an entire round casting Dim Door and their quickened spell (which won't be devestating) while the other 5 druids summon an army. Russ... A) Quickened spells are ALWAYS devastating - they're giving the arcanist an additional action. Which is bad for the other guy, whomever he may be. B) Wait... why is the arcanist casting Dimension Door? If we're to a level where we automake a DC 15 + spell level concentration check (like, around level 13), I'm not even going to notice the Whirlwind damage for a round - I'm going to suck up the whirlwind, lose my False Life hp, and drop Quickened Web + Acid Fog if anchors are available, or else Evard's Black Tentacles (and hope the other guy has Acid Fog). When you've got 100+ hit points, the whirlwind damage is better than losing an action. Of course, this convoluted situation assumes that only ONE druid beat me in the initiative order, among many other potential variables - for example, what's my contingent spell, did I remember to Nerveskitter, what other spells do I have prepared today, did I already use my Extraordinary Spell Aimed Antimagic Field, etc. If all six managed to beat the arcane party (and summon aforementioned army), one of us just casts Banishment. Problem solved. Which leads to C) my third question - why are we having two parties fighting over who can kill the other, when they're all probably good/neutral-aligned (or in the case of some of the wizards, barely-not-evil aligned), and they could therefore be killing the villains instead of each other?
lunarfish 06-13-07, 09:23 PM	So what do they cast? Can they target anything from inside a whirlwind? We're posting on top of each other - brilliant! Yes, I can certainly target from inside the whirlwind. Even if a DM ruled that I couldn't (and assuming I failed the reflex save against the Whirlwind attack, which is about 50/50 for the average 13th level wizard), I can delay to the end of the round, wait for the summons to finish, and then drop a Banishment (DC 27) to wipe the summons - bit like a reset button, that spell. However, depending on the wizard, they're going to have different actions to respond to that. Sure, for some casting that DimDoor is going to be optimal - but only so that they're suddenly in a position to better control the battlefield. I guarantee that at least half of the wizards in our strange little gladiatorial match will NOT be dimension dooring out of the Whirlwinding elementals.
Mommy was an Orc 06-13-07, 09:27 PM	I'm not even certain how the Air Elemental is targeting the arcanists - if the arcanists have Magic Circle up, the Air Elemental can't even touch them. In fact, almost none of the Summon Nature's Allies will be able to touch them. You might want to rethink that battle plan...
Drezden 06-13-07, 09:31 PM	How about Maze on the Elemental? - c ya later. How about Magic Circle of Prot. Against Evil - No more attacks from the Druid "army." How about Prismatic Spray - area spell no need to specifically target. Any area spell would work. Whatever - there are plenty of options. Whirlwind is not that awesome at APL14+. Daren
codyknotts 06-14-07, 03:57 AM	How about Maze on the Elemental? - c ya later. How about Magic Circle of Prot. Against Evil - No more attacks from the Druid "army." How about Prismatic Spray - area spell no need to specifically target. Any area spell would work. Whatever - there are plenty of options. Whirlwind is not that awesome at APL14+. Daren No the real danger from the Druid team would be the charger or pouncer (double lance welder on enhanced tiger) if they got intiative, because they kill one wizard outright to start. The other thing that is not being considered is that the Druids are likely to gain the jump on the wizards in almost any enviroment. Plus they could be watching in wildshape as birds in a tree for a long time (or worms in the ground, or fish in a pond) The real goal would be a versatile party, the all wizards have problems and the goal is not to play at 15, but to play from 1-15 (which is somehow lost in these arguements but it is fun)
kjenks 06-14-07, 08:50 AM	No the real danger from the Druid team would be the charger or pouncer (double lance welder on enhanced tiger) if they got intiative, because they kill one wizard outright to start. Just a little change: We charging/pouncing druids ride Phantom Stags or Advanced Dire Bats. A flying mount makes it easier to charge in rough terrain and allows us to take out those wizards stumbling around with Overland Flight (Average maneuverability).
Genghis Cohen 06-15-07, 12:30 PM	How about Maze on the Elemental? - c ya later. How about Magic Circle of Prot. Against Evil - No more attacks from the Druid "army." How about Prismatic Spray - area spell no need to specifically target. Any area spell would work. Whatever - there are plenty of options. Whirlwind is not that awesome at APL14+. DarenI thought that your wiz uses Magic Circle Against Good? Ha ha, I probably owe you a beer for that one. Yeah, the Magic Circle nixes my idea for the summoned creature. I still stick by what I said about winning initiative. If its 6 wizards versus 6 druids plus 6 animal companions, the wizards really want to go first. They don't want to spend time in a grapple with an Animal Growthed beast. The wizards really have to have the right spells memorized. Force and sonic will work, but don't forget that 3rd level druid spells really suck. There are a few good ones. Depending on the druid, its not unlikely that there are a bundle of Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend and a pile of pearl 3s keeping a whole aray of prot energy spells up. Anyway, I think that most of us agree that a balanced party is really the way to go.
Lupo 06-15-07, 02:29 PM	I thought that your wiz uses Magic Circle Against Good? Ha ha, I probably owe you a beer for that one. Yeah, the Magic Circle nixes my idea for the summoned creature. I still stick by what I said about winning initiative. If its 6 wizards versus 6 druids plus 6 animal companions, the wizards really want to go first. They don't want to spend time in a grapple with an Animal Growthed beast. The wizards really have to have the right spells memorized. Force and sonic will work, but don't forget that 3rd level druid spells really suck. There are a few good ones. Depending on the druid, its not unlikely that there are a bundle of Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend and a pile of pearl 3s keeping a whole aray of prot energy spells up. Anyway, I think that most of us agree that a balanced party is really the way to go. no the magic circle only neutralizes melee attacks and non-good creatures, some of the druid summons are good aligned and some have ranged attacks and some have fun stunts like playing pipes or fiddles. ciao martin m.
control freak 06-18-07, 09:13 PM	so wait what happens when the druids get dominated and it gets to either 7 on 5 or 8 on 4 in a turn?
codyknotts 06-19-07, 11:47 AM	Given the tone of this team beats this team, hey how do the Wizards or Druids handle a team of Halfling Outriders, who at least one has Marshal levels for motivate dex and one has a level of Dread Commando. Goes first, rough terrain doesn't stop and they slaughter all spell casters in first round with a charge. Fight over because wizards don't have enough hitpoints to survive the double lance crazy charge. But the idea was to find out what the best six man team was to form consider all factors and all levels. Try and play team wizard at first level, first adventure, some wizards die unless your dm plays it soft.
kjenks 06-19-07, 11:53 AM	Given the tone of this team beats this team, hey how do the Wizards or Druids handle a team of Halfling Outriders... You mean those cute little guys way down there on the ground? I can hardly see them from way up here where all of us spellcasters are flying. What do you think, Team? Should we nuke 'em from orbit or just skip this encounter?
codyknotts 06-19-07, 02:25 PM	Touche, the Wizards on the other hand would be on the ground till they cast fly (since it's duration is not long enough to prebuff before the obligatory random enounter). You are right though. Hey but I am a believer in team Druid with the double lance pounce from the air. The Wizs would die turn one (esp. if one Druid has a couple levels of Marshal) and maybe that team tactic of the Cavalry thing
Sieylianna 06-19-07, 05:32 PM	Given the tone of this team beats this team, hey how do the Wizards or Druids handle a team of Halfling Outriders, . Wall of thorns. Ed
kjenks 06-19-07, 05:36 PM	Team Wizard is flying with Overland Flight or on those wondrous items they all crafted. Or on Phantom Steed spells. The gnome wizard has been flying intermittently since level 1 with a combination of Reduce Person and Unseen Servant, changing out "flight" spells as new spells become available with later levels. Team Druid is flying on advanced dire bats or Phantom Stag or Summon Dire Hawk spells. The 27-lb. deep halfling druid has been riding her eagle animal companion since level 1; she's almost never been attacked. Team Cleric appears misty and translucent with their Wind Walk spell. They can resort to Air Walk if they need to. In outdoor encounters, these all-caster Teams have names for the other Teams: Optional Encounter. Or Obligatory Thug Attack. Or just Free XP.
kjenks 06-19-07, 05:44 PM	Hey but I am a believer in team Druid with the double lance pounce from the air. The Wizs would die turn one (esp. if one Druid has a couple levels of Marshal) and maybe that team tactic of the Cavalry thing But if Team Wizard has Contingency spells, they can Greater Blink in a jiffy or otherwise manage to foil mounted lance charges. There are many, many ways to foil a mounted lance charge, and some of them are swift actions or even not-an-action for a decent level Wizard. And don't all of those wizards look like a wandering tribe of nomads or a pack of white dragons anyway? Or did someone on Team Wizard forget to cast Seeming or Veil today?
Iswald 06-20-07, 10:16 AM	How many of these spells that are being tossed out at random are actually prepared on a daily basis by the caster, whether its a cleric, druid or wizard?
Zanzibax 06-20-07, 10:25 AM	The all wizard vs. all druid teams are hilarious. Both teams cannot survive an average adventure at least until level 6 or so.
Iswald 06-20-07, 11:38 AM	The all wizard vs. all druid teams are hilarious. Both teams cannot survive an average adventure at least until level 6 or so. The druids wouldn't actually do too bad. Remember that they all have animal companions who may start with 2 HD. If each druid is working towards a different type of build, then you may have some that go well in melee in addition to offensive spells and healing. The wizards may be able to handle some adventures. It'd help if the encounters were spaced out more for them.
Lupo 06-20-07, 12:17 PM	The all wizard vs. all druid teams are hilarious. Both teams cannot survive an average adventure at least until level 6 or so. an "all druid" team is the one that should be the best for any adventure compared to other "all XY" teams :) and i would bet a lot of money on this ;) and it can be an "all druid" without ANY prestige classes :P from the start an "all druid" team enters the field with double the number of minis :D ciao martin m.
Cardinal Teplin 06-20-07, 12:41 PM	The question really becomes this: What do you think causes adventurers to fail their missions or die? In my experience (and no one person's experience is universal, particularly not in as big a game as LG), adventurers most often suffer from something unexpected happening. Something they can't deal with, or a situation they can't adapt to. This happens far more often than monsters that are simply too tough, too damaging, or too numerous to handle. From that perspective, 6 of anything, wizards, druids, etc. is inherently worse than a variety of characters. What happens to the 6 druid team in an adventure set entirely in tight tunnels underground? I also tend to argue that interesting characters with personalities and backgrounds are more likely to be played to retirement than faceless sets of stats, and thus playing a well-rounded character is a powergaming consideration as well as a roleplaying one. But that's probably a discussion for another thread...
Hariman 06-21-07, 02:36 AM	The question really becomes this: What do you think causes adventurers to fail their missions or die? In my experience (and no one person's experience is universal, particularly not in as big a game as LG), adventurers most often suffer from something unexpected happening. Something they can't deal with, or a situation they can't adapt to. This happens far more often than monsters that are simply too tough, too damaging, or too numerous to handle. From that perspective, 6 of anything, wizards, druids, etc. is inherently worse than a variety of characters. What happens to the 6 druid team in an adventure set entirely in tight tunnels underground? I also tend to argue that interesting characters with personalities and backgrounds are more likely to be played to retirement than faceless sets of stats, and thus playing a well-rounded character is a powergaming consideration as well as a roleplaying one. But that's probably a discussion for another thread... Party Fragmentation and Bad Luck have played big roles in deaths and "TPKs" that I've seen. Bad party mixes for the encounters have also played a big role. Ideally, and this has been said before, each party needs: A Tank, A healer, An arcane caster, A trapfinder/skillmonkey IE: The Iconic Party Additionally, the party should have: A Buffer (Bard, marshal, second cleric, a druid or another arcane caster.) A sixth character is actually going to be a little redundant, but I'd recommend another tank or arcane caster. Either will greatly increase options for the party.
copper_wyrmling 06-21-07, 10:17 AM	I've never actually seen a party come close to a TPK, with the exception of a balanced party in an intro mod playtest who just couldn't roll above 5 for about ten straight rounds (and the GM couldn't roll below 15). PC deaths I've seen... When I was GMing: - L8 warmage playing up to APL 12 elected to stay on the ground with two gargantuan behirs while the rest of the party went mass-flying, - x3 crit on a L4 paladin at APL 6 from a high-damage enemy fighter, - Almost unbelievably high damage roll (around 1.5x normal) on an orb of force + impromptu sneak attack against a grey-elf rogue at APL 10. When I was playing: - One PC did something stupid and got themselves into a situation requiring rescue a LONG way from the rest of the party, meaning that the second PC to go down bled out before the rescuers could get back to their position (APL 6), - A sorcerer died to a sequence of very high rolls on a trap that dropped d20 icicles doing d10 damage each, or something along those lines (APL 12), - A L2 archer got hit by a full vampire and insta-killed (APL 4), - A L4 monk got grappled and squeezed to death by the hand construct in A Tiger? In Ahlissa? (APL 4), - A high-level cleric bombed her save on a high-CL disintegrate while already wounded (APL 16). I may be forgetting something, but I think that's the complete list of all the deaths that have ever occurred on tables where I was present (in about 200 ARs). In most cases, we actually had a reasonably balanced party: it was either bad luck, serious player overconfidence, or an ill-advised rescue attempt that caused the death. Just my experience. I agree with the comments on adaptability - and that's actually why I like arcane-heavy tables at high APLs, because it has been my experience that a surfeit of arcane magic (with good players) gives you more tools than any other set of class abilities for solving unexpected problems. EDIT: As cycloptic has pointed out, I forgot a death in my list above: L5 centaur repeatedly failed to roll above 3 (when he needed about a 4 to hit and kill the monster) and then got critted and killed by an advanced shark.
cycloptic_squirrel 06-21-07, 10:54 AM	I may be forgetting something, but I think that's the complete list of all the deaths that have ever occurred on tables where I was present (in about 200 ARs). In most cases, we actually had a reasonably balanced party: it was either bad luck, serious player overconfidence, or an ill-advised rescue attempt that caused the death. Just my experience. What about the incident where the centaur couldn't roll above a 3 and a shark that rolled 20 two rounds in a row against him?
copper_wyrmling 06-21-07, 11:10 AM	What about the incident where the centaur couldn't roll above a 3 and a shark that rolled 20 two rounds in a row against him? Yeah, I came back onto the boards to edit my post with that one, but you beat me to it ;) And yeah, that falls in the Extreme Bad Luck category - our party wasn't the greatest, but that particular death had a lot more to do with horrible dicerolls than bad party balance.
cycloptic_squirrel 06-21-07, 11:14 AM	I came back onto the boards to edit my post with that one ;) And yeah, that falls in the Extreme Bad Luck category - our party wasn't the greatest, but that particular death had a lot more to do with horrible dicerolls than bad party balance. Agreed. Definitely a 'the dice hate you' scenario.
Hariman 06-22-07, 10:08 PM	OOPS, wrong thread. Nothing to see here!
Lomiat 06-22-07, 10:21 PM	OOPS, wrong thread. Nothing to see here! Whew! For a second, I thought this ridiculous "wizard versus druid" argument had been resurrected. Because, obviously, a party of 4 to 6 non-evil wizards would defeat a party of evil druids. Of course, a party of 4 to 6 non-evil druids would defeat a party of evil wizards (somehow). And everyone would get XP and GP and an AR full of crunchy (fluffy?) items.... Hooray! (except the dead evil druids.)
Hariman 06-22-07, 10:26 PM	Whew! For a second, I thought this ridiculous "wizard versus druid" argument had been resurrected. Because, obviously, a party of 4 to 6 non-evil wizards would defeat a party of evil druids. Of course, a party of 4 to 6 non-evil druids would defeat a party of evil wizards (somehow). And everyone would get XP and GP and an AR full of crunchy (fluffy?) items.... Hooray! (except the dead evil druids.) They'll boost those evil druids with the fiendish template. Or worse.
codyknotts 06-23-07, 01:10 AM	How important is it to have a rogue (considering every level not just over level 12)? We have never seemed to need one. The BDF walks into traps and then gets healed. I actually wish the Rogue was needed more, but maybe I am missing something.
_metz_ 06-23-07, 02:26 AM	How important is it to have a rogue (considering every level not just over level 12)? We have never seemed to need one. The BDF walks into traps and then gets healed. I actually wish the Rogue was needed more, but maybe I am missing something. Wow, you haven't seen some of the traps I have. I have also seen traps in encounters which coincide, where if you set it off, you are in big trouble, as you are now damage and have about 6 seconds before the bad guy's turn up. Oh and wiht reference to 'just being healed' Traps aren't always fireballs/falling rocks. Enervation, Massive amounts of ability damage (often enough to outright kill a character) baleful polymorph, etc are all examples of stuff where a CLW wand won't help. MOST dangerous traps I see don't hurt you cos of direct hitpoint damage. If you keep playing the way you are, that BDF is going to eventually be hit by a wail of the banshee (or like 14 of them) and then die. Also NOT having to expend resources healing after a trap is useful too. Oh. And disabling spell turrets is easier with a rogue. (Spell turrets are nasty, especially APL 6 ones)
Iswald 06-23-07, 09:17 AM	I remember playing an intro mod once with a fairly well rounded group that included a rogue. It was quite amazing that the mod also had traps for the rogue to play with. Fortunately, we had somebody to do some healing as well... There aren't that many traps in mods. But, all of the ones that do make it in, were put there by extremely sadistic authors.
Lomiat 06-23-07, 11:02 AM	I remember playing an intro mod once with a fairly well rounded group that included a rogue. It was quite amazing that the mod also had traps for the rogue to play with. Fortunately, we had somebody to do some healing as well... There aren't that many traps in mods. But, all of the ones that do make it in, were put there by extremely sadistic authors. Frankly, since I tend to write traps into my adventures to help the rogues shine, I don't think of myself as sadistic. My traps tend to have manageable Search and Disable DCs, but both will be high enough to require Trapfinding (Rogue or Scout). And the traps tend to do things other than just injure the BDF in a place where the cleric can immediately turn around and heal him... In other words, I'm doing my best, at all APLs, to make a rogue useful. The problem is that there aren't enough authors who make this one of their primary considerations (though it should account for nearly 25% of their planning -- according to the D&D "iconic party").
cycloptic_squirrel 06-24-07, 01:44 AM	How important is it to have a rogue (considering every level not just over level 12)? We have never seemed to need one. The BDF walks into traps and then gets healed. I actually wish the Rogue was needed more, but maybe I am missing something. I wouldn't say it's absolutely vital. Part of it is simply becuase of the nature of LG and the consideration that a random party should be able to complete an adventure without a rouge; to say it in a slightly different way, the lack of a rouge shouldn't kill a table. I've come across only one or two situations where having a trapfinder was/would have been extremely beneficial. That said, over the past six months I've seen a lot of chatter bemoaning the situation and I've also seen suggestions on how to remedy it. Solutions include tying access/treasure to defeated traps, putting traps in combat or combat-like situations, allowing someone who disabled a trap to bypass an encounter or situation, and many others. I still wouldn't consider a trapspringer as important as say a healer, but just based on these converstions I'd breathe easier knowing there was a rouge in the party. These are just speculations, of course, but I don't think I'm the only one who is hoping they pan out.