Bonded Summoner build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bonded Summoner build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
D.K.R.
07-29-07, 04:41 AM Okay, I've done a bit of research and have a very quirky yet (I hope) solid and playable wizard build. I chose a specialist wizard for the bonus spells, and took a perhaps questionable (at least in LG) school of Necromancy as my primary. I am dumping Evocation and Illusion, both very handy schools but some sacrifice had to be made, non? I want transmutation for the buffs (to myself, but mostly to party mates and my familiar/elemental companion).

I chose to sacrifice caster levels for boosting my companion. I was initially planning on an arcane heirophant build, but when I found access to bonsded summoner from a local meta-org, I thought it would be a better choice for a beefy companion and arcane casting. I also like the flavor better.

So here is my build; I'd love critiques, advice, et al.

STR 6(-2)
DEX 16(+3)
CON 12(+1)
INT 20(+5)
WIS 8(-1)
CHA 8(-1)

Point Buy: 18, 14, 14, 8, 8, 8
Ability Increases: All to Intelligence
Level Class Feats, Class Abilities, etc.
1 Wiz1 Retributive Spell,
Scribe Scroll,
Summon Familiar,
Specialist (+Necromancy, -Evocation, -Illusion)

2 Wiz2

3 Wiz3 Craft Wondrous Item

4 Wiz4 +1 Intelligence (21)

5 Wiz5 Metamagic School Focus

6 BndSum1 Alacritous Cogitation,
Elemental Companion (Med),
Resistance to Energy 5

7 BndSum2

8 BndSum3 +1 Intelligence (22),
Elemental Companion (Lrg),
Resistance to Energy 10,
Immunity to Sleep

9 BndSum4 Quicken Spell

10 BndSum5 Elemental Companion (Huge),
Resistance to Energy 15,
Immunity to Poison

11 BndSum6

12 BndSum7 Empower Spell,
+1 Intelligence (23),
Elemental Companion (Greater),
Resistance to Energy 20,
Immunity to Paralysis, Stun

13 BndSum8

14 BndSum9 Elemental Companion (Elder),
Cannot Be Flanked,
Immunity to Energy

15 BndSum10Fearsome Necromancy,
Elemental Form,
Elemental type,
Immunity to critical hits
So, there's a prospective build. I know I'll need a lot of work to pull it off well, but I am sure it can be done. I am not certain on elemental choice, but air is the first preference, with earth a close second. How would it be handled for my elemental to carry me (such as 'flying' in the middle of an air elemental's vortex) - would I still be allowed to cast while being carried, and would it be able to deliver touch spells for me? Is that something that might vary wildly from table to table?

What spells should I focus on? Do you feel being a necromancer will be a mistake? As a non-blaster, buff/utility style wizard I lose few spells from evocation; but illusion could hurt more. I need transmutation, abjuration is a close second, I like enchantment, and can't drop divination.

How about my feat choice? Any comments there? Alternative suggestions?

Thanks!
bitznarf
07-29-07, 11:53 AM Swap Quicken and Empower. You won't be able to Quicken anything other than cantrips until level 13 anyway. Well, not unless you use your Meta-magic School Focus on it. But I would think Empower would still be a better choice at that point.
Donald_Cannith
07-29-07, 12:43 PM why necromancy? Should you be focused on conjuration? Also, specializing is probably a mistake. You can get metamagic school focus simply with spell focus. Especially since you have a 16 dex not having evocation, for the ray spells, is stupid. The orb spells work with this too. Such a high dex without all the rays possible seems like a waste. Otherwise good choices. I would go with earth justb ecause riding an air elemental is going to have all kinds of table variation.
D.K.R.
07-29-07, 01:32 PM Swap Quicken and Empower. You won't be able to Quicken anything other than cantrips until level 13 anyway. Well, not unless you use your Meta-magic School Focus on it. But I would think Empower would still be a better choice at that point.
I was indeed planning on using MMSF with quicken. But on contemplation you are most likely correct, and I'll swap them.

why necromancy? Should you be focused on conjuration? Also, specializing is probably a mistake. You can get metamagic school focus simply with spell focus. Especially since you have a 16 dex not having evocation, for the ray spells, is stupid. The orb spells work with this too. Such a high dex without all the rays possible seems like a waste. Otherwise good choices. I would go with earth justb ecause riding an air elemental is going to have all kinds of table variation.I chose necromancy to grab spectral hand and (bestow curse, chill touch, contagion, ghoul touch, vampiric touch, etc.), as well as the rays; enervation, disrupt undead, ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, etc.
The 16 dex is not for ray attacks as much as it is for AC, initiative, reflex saves, and skills (and only from racial bonuses, I wouldn't have gone over 14 with a human mage).
As to specializing being a mistake, I am making him a utility wizard more than a blaster wizard (mostly evident in my choice of barred schools). Because of that I feel he can handle the loss of 5 caster levels. But adding in extra spells per day is always a huge benefit...
D.K.R.
08-06-07, 08:33 AM Revamp to the build...some major changes; any suggestions?

Grey Elf Necromantic Bonded Summoner
STR 8(-1)
DEX 12(+1)
CON 12(+1)
INT 20(+5)
WIS 10(+0)
CHA 8(-1)

Ability Increases: All to IntelligenceLevel Class Feats, Class Abilities, etc.
1 Wiz1 Alacritous Cogitation,
Scribe Scroll,
Summon Familiar,

2 Wiz2

3 Wiz3 Craft Wondrous Item

4 Wiz4 +1 Intelligence (21)

5 Wiz5 Retributive Spell

6 BndSum1 Practiced Spellcaster,
Elemental Companion (Med),
Resistance to Energy 5

7 BndSum2

8 BndSum3 +1 Intelligence (22),
Elemental Companion (Lrg),
Resistance to Energy 10,
Immunity to Sleep

9 BndSum4 Empower Spell

10 BndSum5 Elemental Companion (Huge),
Resistance to Energy 15,
Immunity to Poison

11 BndSum6

12 BndSum7 Quicken Spell,
+1 Intelligence (23),
Elemental Companion (Greater),
Resistance to Energy 20,
Immunity to Paralysis, Stun

13 BndSum8

14 BndSum9 Elemental Companion (Elder),
Cannot Be Flanked,
Immunity to Energy

15 BndSum10 Feat((???)),
Elemental Form,
Elemental type,
Immunity to critical hits

I am taking out specialization... I can still focus on using necromancy spells without being a specialist. The loss of one spell/day is a big hit, but the more I pore over open and NONC spell lists, the more I realize I don't want to do without access to any entire school. (And, pearls of power can help with that a lot.) Feats are a guess for now, no idea on the exact selection I will take. I'll be focusing on buffs and debuffs through my entire career, biding time until I can unleash the elemental fury of my familiar as a powerhouse...:eek: lmao!
control freak
08-06-07, 11:10 AM personaly im a huge advocate of "all wizards must take empower and CWI" retributive is ok but empower is just as good
CdrcJsn
08-06-07, 01:33 PM If you're buffing and using mostly no-save spells, why the 20 starting INT?
D.K.R.
08-06-07, 03:02 PM 20 Int is for the extra spell a day at 1st level (1st level spell) and again at 8th level (2nd level spell) after stat bumps, along with the extra spells/day from Int boosting items.

It also ups my known languages, skill points, and Int based skill totals.

Finally, whenever would having the extra point in DC hurt? As I have moved away from specialist, I am going to have access to potentially all open spells, and any NONC spells I get from ARs. I understand I won't have all of them, but my spell selection will be varied. So I will have at least a handful of spells with save DCs (just as I will have a handful requiring ranged attacks, and a handful of AoE spells, a handful of utility spells, etc.)
D.K.R.
08-06-07, 03:07 PM personaly im a huge advocate of "all wizards must take empower and CWI" retributive is ok but empower is just as good

I did take empower; just not at the earliest...at 5th (when I took retributive) I could only empower 1st level spells, and only a very few of them. By waiting until 9th (CL 7th) as I did, I can then empower a few spells up to 2nd level, and a useful number of 1st.
UMiskatonic
08-06-07, 04:14 PM Finally, whenever would having the extra point in DC hurt?

It hurts when you miss a fort save by one, and drop dead because all your points are in intelligence.

I mean, I'm not saying you should be a dumb wizard, but there's a tradeoff...
D.K.R.
08-06-07, 04:45 PM no matter where I put my con, I could always miss a fort save by 1. It is not as concrete a benefit as the extra Intelligence would be. As for hit points, up until bonded summoner, I will have a toad familiar, giving me 3 extra - that covers the +1/level from con for my first 3 levels, after which point 1 or 2 hit points are mostly a moot point.

I am not saying that there would be no benefit to having a 14 con instead of 12; I don't feel it worth dropping the solid benefits I will rely on daily in each adventure for a benefit that comes into play once every third or fourth adventure.

If I did drop Int from 20, it would certainly not bump my Con. It would remove the penalty from STR or CHA, and/or bump my Wis (for arcane disciple). But as none of those seem to me to be as beneficial as 20 INT.

If I were dropping INT from 20, I would also not be playing a gray elf.
CdrcJsn
08-07-07, 04:48 AM no matter where I put my con, I could always miss a fort save by 1. It is not as concrete a benefit as the extra Intelligence would be. As for hit points, up until bonded summoner, I will have a toad familiar, giving me 3 extra - that covers the +1/level from con for my first 3 levels, after which point 1 or 2 hit points are mostly a moot point.

I would probably just play a Dwarf myself.

The main benefit it seems you want is the extra 1st level spell, something which can be duplicated by a 1st level pearl of power. At 1st level, scrolls will do the job more often than not.

6 build points is the difference between 18 and 20 Int. 10 build points for 16 and 20. There's a lot you can do with those build points that are more important than an extra 1st level spell.

Unless you plan on casting spells that require DCs, I don't recommend starting with higher than a 16 Int for a wizard that is going to be mainly buffing their party and familiar.
D.K.R.
08-07-07, 05:58 AM I would probably just play a Dwarf myself.

The main benefit it seems you want is the extra 1st level spell, something which can be duplicated by a 1st level pearl of power. At 1st level, scrolls will do the job more often than not.

6 build points is the difference between 18 and 20 Int. 10 build points for 16 and 20. There's a lot you can do with those build points that are more important than an extra 1st level spell.

Unless you plan on casting spells that require DCs, I don't recommend starting with higher than a 16 Int for a wizard that is going to be mainly buffing their party and familiar.

I do enjoy the extra spell, but it is honestly not the main reason for a 20 INT. I chose it for skill points (and Int based skills), as well as for starting languages, as much as I did for the extra spell (not more, not less - about the same importance to me). The save DCs are also a nice benefit which are secondary (or would that be tertiary) to the above tie for first importance.

If I am not taking INT 20, I won't take Gray Elf. It is pointless, in my opinion. The benefits of +2 INT are more than balanced by the penalty of -2 CON. The STR/DEX trade is also even, and in those two I don't care much (except I want to be able to manage a reasonable light load, and to hit my targets - so whether I am a gish, a sniper, or neither makes those of varying importance).

As you said, for the gray elf, the difference from 20 to 18 is 6 points. I would use those points to boost my DEX and STR, maybe WIS. CON is already 12 (14-2), and I won't waste 3 or 6 points on a bump in that stat.

I have read an alarming number of threads showing how important a minimum 14 CON score is for wizards (indeed, all characters), but I have done quite well in many games with various 10, 8, and even two 6 CON characters (casters, to be sure).

It is how well you play your strengths and shore up your weaknesses that determine how you live/die, and how well you contribute... not WHAT those strengths or weaknesses are.

In case I am mistaken in that regard, I did decide to beef up to a 12 CON, more than I would normally; but as mentioned I won't be wasting 4 or 10 points for that extra little bit. So, assuming CON is never going to go above 12 for a gray elf I play, why not 20 INT? I could spread the points to DEX, balance out the penalties to CHA and STR, and/or boost my WIS - all depending on the character build I am aiming for. But none of those have any major advantages over selecting 20 INT for an extra spell and languages/skills (and a nice boost to DCs for when I need it).

~
To look at a different tact; what about the dwarf wizard approach you mention? I am in fact preparing many 1st level characters to choose from when I start playing, and 2 are dwarven arcanists; a bard and a wizard. The wizard's spread is;
STR 10 (2 PB)
DEX 10 (2PB)
CON 14 (4PB)
INT 18 (16 PB)
WIS 12 (4 PB)
CHA 06 (0 PB)

He is focused on battlefield control and uses many DC based spells, thus the INT. If I decide on using any of the 'Earth XXX' feats from races of stone, one of my level bumps will be to WIS to qualify. I am also thinking about dropping CON to 12 and bumping WIS to 14, and taking Arcane Disciple to gain some extra spells; if I do I will probably rely on items for an eventual WIS 20 and INT 27 (after +3 from levels).

But all of that is irrelevant to my build proposed above. Back to that...
~

With a loss of 5 caster levels, I am behind the curve on spells/day as well as maximum spell level. I am willing to make the sacrifice to power my elemental. To help make up for that, the extra boost to INT will grant an extra spell/day from various spell levels (depending on what level I am at and stat bumps, as well as what stat boosting items I have). I also have an enhanced spellcraft roll to learn spells - not that it is much of an issue, but it is almost as common as the 'missing a fort save by 1 point' brought up before. Meaning, not really common, but annoying enough when it happens...

Assume that by 3rd level I can afford the XP and GP to craft a pearl of power (1st) [500GP / 40XP], as well as an INT +2 item [2,000GP / 160XP]. I have no idea if that is likely or not, having not yet played, but it seems reasonable and I am making the assumption for sake of example.

If I started with 16 INT I have 1 bonus spell each of 1st and 2nd levels. The POP gives me an extra 1st, and the INT+2 does nothing.

If I started with 18 INT, I have 1 bonus spell each of 1st and 2nd levels. The POP gives another 1st, and the INT+2 gives me yet another 1st.

If I started with 20 INT, I have 2 bonus spells of 1st level, and 1 of 2nd level. The POP gives another 1st, and the INT+2 gives me another 2nd.

The difference from 16 to 18 is one 1st level spell. The difference from 18 to 20 is one 2nd level spell (which can be used for an extra 1st if needed). And the better the INT item gets (+4, +6) and/or my base INT gets (22 at 8th), the higher level bonus spells I get.

And yes, I do realize an INT +2 item costs the same as a POP for 2nd level spells – but when I hit 8th and gain INT 22, the INT+2 is equal to a POP for 3rd level spells and is cheaper. It also gives me yet more boost to DCs (if/when needed) as well as skill points.

Add to that the fact that I can easily have any number of spells which do benefit from higher save DCs, I do gain more skill ranks which can apply to skills of any ability score base, and I get some small boost to INT based skills.

So it is a series of benefits which (in my opinion) outweighs anything I could do with the extra 6 or 10 stat points, when the build needs... nothing from strength (other than a reasonable light load limit) little from dexterity (AC is nice, as are ranged attack bonuses, but neither necessary) little from constitution (those 10 points would only get me a +2 Fort save and 2hp/level beyond what I have already spent) little from wisdom (I already have good will saves; the skill benefits are nice but not as good as more skill ranks - this becomes more important with arcane disciple, but not for this build) nothing from charisma (this is a dump stat as built, and while it could be refocused into a social skill build, the skill ranks again outweigh the ability bonus)
control freak
08-08-07, 12:15 AM if you want the most powerfull current wizard it is (thats a little blatent but you really need these kind of stats because cha is worthless, and str is worthless, and wis all you do is lose 1 will save point)

6
16
12
20
8
8

the HP matters for higher APLS due to fire ball and all AOEs, you WILL die if you dont have decent dex and con and HPs, a con of 12-14 AND have false life empowered(HUGE), personaly i would specialise in either necro, evoc, or Conj so you can use Meta magic school focus, on empower/rapid metamagic
clannagh
08-08-07, 03:03 AM it may be just my region .. but I see a lot of lesser empower and lesser extend rods on ARs .. i know Kitty_kat's level 8 heirophant packs two of each

considering that you are not likely to empower anything much above a level 3 spell anyway, a lesser rod of empower, if you get access, is probably a better option than the feat

oh .. and many wizards put points into con for concentration more so than HP
Ralis
08-08-07, 09:41 AM The one suggestion I'll make is to try and find acess to the Elven Wizards substitution Levesl. Since they make you a "Generalized Specialist"

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
D.K.R. 07-29-07, 04:41 AM	Okay, I've done a bit of research and have a very quirky yet (I hope) solid and playable wizard build. I chose a specialist wizard for the bonus spells, and took a perhaps questionable (at least in LG) school of Necromancy as my primary. I am dumping Evocation and Illusion, both very handy schools but some sacrifice had to be made, non? I want transmutation for the buffs (to myself, but mostly to party mates and my familiar/elemental companion). I chose to sacrifice caster levels for boosting my companion. I was initially planning on an arcane heirophant build, but when I found access to bonsded summoner from a local meta-org, I thought it would be a better choice for a beefy companion and arcane casting. I also like the flavor better. So here is my build; I'd love critiques, advice, et al. STR 6(-2) DEX 16(+3) CON 12(+1) INT 20(+5) WIS 8(-1) CHA 8(-1) Point Buy: 18, 14, 14, 8, 8, 8 Ability Increases: All to Intelligence Level Class Feats, Class Abilities, etc. 1 Wiz1 Retributive Spell, Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar, Specialist (+Necromancy, -Evocation, -Illusion) 2 Wiz2 3 Wiz3 Craft Wondrous Item 4 Wiz4 +1 Intelligence (21) 5 Wiz5 Metamagic School Focus 6 BndSum1 Alacritous Cogitation, Elemental Companion (Med), Resistance to Energy 5 7 BndSum2 8 BndSum3 +1 Intelligence (22), Elemental Companion (Lrg), Resistance to Energy 10, Immunity to Sleep 9 BndSum4 Quicken Spell 10 BndSum5 Elemental Companion (Huge), Resistance to Energy 15, Immunity to Poison 11 BndSum6 12 BndSum7 Empower Spell, +1 Intelligence (23), Elemental Companion (Greater), Resistance to Energy 20, Immunity to Paralysis, Stun 13 BndSum8 14 BndSum9 Elemental Companion (Elder), Cannot Be Flanked, Immunity to Energy 15 BndSum10Fearsome Necromancy, Elemental Form, Elemental type, Immunity to critical hits So, there's a prospective build. I know I'll need a lot of work to pull it off well, but I am sure it can be done. I am not certain on elemental choice, but air is the first preference, with earth a close second. How would it be handled for my elemental to carry me (such as 'flying' in the middle of an air elemental's vortex) - would I still be allowed to cast while being carried, and would it be able to deliver touch spells for me? Is that something that might vary wildly from table to table? What spells should I focus on? Do you feel being a necromancer will be a mistake? As a non-blaster, buff/utility style wizard I lose few spells from evocation; but illusion could hurt more. I need transmutation, abjuration is a close second, I like enchantment, and can't drop divination. How about my feat choice? Any comments there? Alternative suggestions? Thanks!
bitznarf 07-29-07, 11:53 AM	Swap Quicken and Empower. You won't be able to Quicken anything other than cantrips until level 13 anyway. Well, not unless you use your Meta-magic School Focus on it. But I would think Empower would still be a better choice at that point.
Donald_Cannith 07-29-07, 12:43 PM	why necromancy? Should you be focused on conjuration? Also, specializing is probably a mistake. You can get metamagic school focus simply with spell focus. Especially since you have a 16 dex not having evocation, for the ray spells, is stupid. The orb spells work with this too. Such a high dex without all the rays possible seems like a waste. Otherwise good choices. I would go with earth justb ecause riding an air elemental is going to have all kinds of table variation.
D.K.R. 07-29-07, 01:32 PM	Swap Quicken and Empower. You won't be able to Quicken anything other than cantrips until level 13 anyway. Well, not unless you use your Meta-magic School Focus on it. But I would think Empower would still be a better choice at that point. I was indeed planning on using MMSF with quicken. But on contemplation you are most likely correct, and I'll swap them. why necromancy? Should you be focused on conjuration? Also, specializing is probably a mistake. You can get metamagic school focus simply with spell focus. Especially since you have a 16 dex not having evocation, for the ray spells, is stupid. The orb spells work with this too. Such a high dex without all the rays possible seems like a waste. Otherwise good choices. I would go with earth justb ecause riding an air elemental is going to have all kinds of table variation.I chose necromancy to grab spectral hand and (bestow curse, chill touch, contagion, ghoul touch, vampiric touch, etc.), as well as the rays; enervation, disrupt undead, ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, etc. The 16 dex is not for ray attacks as much as it is for AC, initiative, reflex saves, and skills (and only from racial bonuses, I wouldn't have gone over 14 with a human mage). As to specializing being a mistake, I am making him a utility wizard more than a blaster wizard (mostly evident in my choice of barred schools). Because of that I feel he can handle the loss of 5 caster levels. But adding in extra spells per day is always a huge benefit...
D.K.R. 08-06-07, 08:33 AM	Revamp to the build...some major changes; any suggestions? Grey Elf Necromantic Bonded Summoner STR 8(-1) DEX 12(+1) CON 12(+1) INT 20(+5) WIS 10(+0) CHA 8(-1) Ability Increases: All to IntelligenceLevel Class Feats, Class Abilities, etc. 1 Wiz1 Alacritous Cogitation, Scribe Scroll, Summon Familiar, 2 Wiz2 3 Wiz3 Craft Wondrous Item 4 Wiz4 +1 Intelligence (21) 5 Wiz5 Retributive Spell 6 BndSum1 Practiced Spellcaster, Elemental Companion (Med), Resistance to Energy 5 7 BndSum2 8 BndSum3 +1 Intelligence (22), Elemental Companion (Lrg), Resistance to Energy 10, Immunity to Sleep 9 BndSum4 Empower Spell 10 BndSum5 Elemental Companion (Huge), Resistance to Energy 15, Immunity to Poison 11 BndSum6 12 BndSum7 Quicken Spell, +1 Intelligence (23), Elemental Companion (Greater), Resistance to Energy 20, Immunity to Paralysis, Stun 13 BndSum8 14 BndSum9 Elemental Companion (Elder), Cannot Be Flanked, Immunity to Energy 15 BndSum10 Feat((???)), Elemental Form, Elemental type, Immunity to critical hits I am taking out specialization... I can still focus on using necromancy spells without being a specialist. The loss of one spell/day is a big hit, but the more I pore over open and NONC spell lists, the more I realize I don't want to do without access to any entire school. (And, pearls of power can help with that a lot.) Feats are a guess for now, no idea on the exact selection I will take. I'll be focusing on buffs and debuffs through my entire career, biding time until I can unleash the elemental fury of my familiar as a powerhouse...:eek: lmao!
control freak 08-06-07, 11:10 AM	personaly im a huge advocate of "all wizards must take empower and CWI" retributive is ok but empower is just as good
CdrcJsn 08-06-07, 01:33 PM	If you're buffing and using mostly no-save spells, why the 20 starting INT?
D.K.R. 08-06-07, 03:02 PM	20 Int is for the extra spell a day at 1st level (1st level spell) and again at 8th level (2nd level spell) after stat bumps, along with the extra spells/day from Int boosting items. It also ups my known languages, skill points, and Int based skill totals. Finally, whenever would having the extra point in DC hurt? As I have moved away from specialist, I am going to have access to potentially all open spells, and any NONC spells I get from ARs. I understand I won't have all of them, but my spell selection will be varied. So I will have at least a handful of spells with save DCs (just as I will have a handful requiring ranged attacks, and a handful of AoE spells, a handful of utility spells, etc.)
D.K.R. 08-06-07, 03:07 PM	personaly im a huge advocate of "all wizards must take empower and CWI" retributive is ok but empower is just as good I did take empower; just not at the earliest...at 5th (when I took retributive) I could only empower 1st level spells, and only a very few of them. By waiting until 9th (CL 7th) as I did, I can then empower a few spells up to 2nd level, and a useful number of 1st.
UMiskatonic 08-06-07, 04:14 PM	Finally, whenever would having the extra point in DC hurt? It hurts when you miss a fort save by one, and drop dead because all your points are in intelligence. I mean, I'm not saying you should be a dumb wizard, but there's a tradeoff...
D.K.R. 08-06-07, 04:45 PM	no matter where I put my con, I could always miss a fort save by 1. It is not as concrete a benefit as the extra Intelligence would be. As for hit points, up until bonded summoner, I will have a toad familiar, giving me 3 extra - that covers the +1/level from con for my first 3 levels, after which point 1 or 2 hit points are mostly a moot point. I am not saying that there would be no benefit to having a 14 con instead of 12; I don't feel it worth dropping the solid benefits I will rely on daily in each adventure for a benefit that comes into play once every third or fourth adventure. If I did drop Int from 20, it would certainly not bump my Con. It would remove the penalty from STR or CHA, and/or bump my Wis (for arcane disciple). But as none of those seem to me to be as beneficial as 20 INT. If I were dropping INT from 20, I would also not be playing a gray elf.
CdrcJsn 08-07-07, 04:48 AM	no matter where I put my con, I could always miss a fort save by 1. It is not as concrete a benefit as the extra Intelligence would be. As for hit points, up until bonded summoner, I will have a toad familiar, giving me 3 extra - that covers the +1/level from con for my first 3 levels, after which point 1 or 2 hit points are mostly a moot point. I would probably just play a Dwarf myself. The main benefit it seems you want is the extra 1st level spell, something which can be duplicated by a 1st level pearl of power. At 1st level, scrolls will do the job more often than not. 6 build points is the difference between 18 and 20 Int. 10 build points for 16 and 20. There's a lot you can do with those build points that are more important than an extra 1st level spell. Unless you plan on casting spells that require DCs, I don't recommend starting with higher than a 16 Int for a wizard that is going to be mainly buffing their party and familiar.
D.K.R. 08-07-07, 05:58 AM	I would probably just play a Dwarf myself. The main benefit it seems you want is the extra 1st level spell, something which can be duplicated by a 1st level pearl of power. At 1st level, scrolls will do the job more often than not. 6 build points is the difference between 18 and 20 Int. 10 build points for 16 and 20. There's a lot you can do with those build points that are more important than an extra 1st level spell. Unless you plan on casting spells that require DCs, I don't recommend starting with higher than a 16 Int for a wizard that is going to be mainly buffing their party and familiar. I do enjoy the extra spell, but it is honestly not the main reason for a 20 INT. I chose it for skill points (and Int based skills), as well as for starting languages, as much as I did for the extra spell (not more, not less - about the same importance to me). The save DCs are also a nice benefit which are secondary (or would that be tertiary) to the above tie for first importance. If I am not taking INT 20, I won't take Gray Elf. It is pointless, in my opinion. The benefits of +2 INT are more than balanced by the penalty of -2 CON. The STR/DEX trade is also even, and in those two I don't care much (except I want to be able to manage a reasonable light load, and to hit my targets - so whether I am a gish, a sniper, or neither makes those of varying importance). As you said, for the gray elf, the difference from 20 to 18 is 6 points. I would use those points to boost my DEX and STR, maybe WIS. CON is already 12 (14-2), and I won't waste 3 or 6 points on a bump in that stat. I have read an alarming number of threads showing how important a minimum 14 CON score is for wizards (indeed, all characters), but I have done quite well in many games with various 10, 8, and even two 6 CON characters (casters, to be sure). It is how well you play your strengths and shore up your weaknesses that determine how you live/die, and how well you contribute... not WHAT those strengths or weaknesses are. In case I am mistaken in that regard, I did decide to beef up to a 12 CON, more than I would normally; but as mentioned I won't be wasting 4 or 10 points for that extra little bit. So, assuming CON is never going to go above 12 for a gray elf I play, why not 20 INT? I could spread the points to DEX, balance out the penalties to CHA and STR, and/or boost my WIS - all depending on the character build I am aiming for. But none of those have any major advantages over selecting 20 INT for an extra spell and languages/skills (and a nice boost to DCs for when I need it). ~ To look at a different tact; what about the dwarf wizard approach you mention? I am in fact preparing many 1st level characters to choose from when I start playing, and 2 are dwarven arcanists; a bard and a wizard. The wizard's spread is; STR 10 (2 PB) DEX 10 (2PB) CON 14 (4PB) INT 18 (16 PB) WIS 12 (4 PB) CHA 06 (0 PB) He is focused on battlefield control and uses many DC based spells, thus the INT. If I decide on using any of the 'Earth XXX' feats from races of stone, one of my level bumps will be to WIS to qualify. I am also thinking about dropping CON to 12 and bumping WIS to 14, and taking Arcane Disciple to gain some extra spells; if I do I will probably rely on items for an eventual WIS 20 and INT 27 (after +3 from levels). But all of that is irrelevant to my build proposed above. Back to that... ~ With a loss of 5 caster levels, I am behind the curve on spells/day as well as maximum spell level. I am willing to make the sacrifice to power my elemental. To help make up for that, the extra boost to INT will grant an extra spell/day from various spell levels (depending on what level I am at and stat bumps, as well as what stat boosting items I have). I also have an enhanced spellcraft roll to learn spells - not that it is much of an issue, but it is almost as common as the 'missing a fort save by 1 point' brought up before. Meaning, not really common, but annoying enough when it happens... Assume that by 3rd level I can afford the XP and GP to craft a pearl of power (1st) [500GP / 40XP], as well as an INT +2 item [2,000GP / 160XP]. I have no idea if that is likely or not, having not yet played, but it seems reasonable and I am making the assumption for sake of example. If I started with 16 INT I have 1 bonus spell each of 1st and 2nd levels. The POP gives me an extra 1st, and the INT+2 does nothing. If I started with 18 INT, I have 1 bonus spell each of 1st and 2nd levels. The POP gives another 1st, and the INT+2 gives me yet another 1st. If I started with 20 INT, I have 2 bonus spells of 1st level, and 1 of 2nd level. The POP gives another 1st, and the INT+2 gives me another 2nd. The difference from 16 to 18 is one 1st level spell. The difference from 18 to 20 is one 2nd level spell (which can be used for an extra 1st if needed). And the better the INT item gets (+4, +6) and/or my base INT gets (22 at 8th), the higher level bonus spells I get. And yes, I do realize an INT +2 item costs the same as a POP for 2nd level spells – but when I hit 8th and gain INT 22, the INT+2 is equal to a POP for 3rd level spells and is cheaper. It also gives me yet more boost to DCs (if/when needed) as well as skill points. Add to that the fact that I can easily have any number of spells which do benefit from higher save DCs, I do gain more skill ranks which can apply to skills of any ability score base, and I get some small boost to INT based skills. So it is a series of benefits which (in my opinion) outweighs anything I could do with the extra 6 or 10 stat points, when the build needs... nothing from strength (other than a reasonable light load limit) little from dexterity (AC is nice, as are ranged attack bonuses, but neither necessary) little from constitution (those 10 points would only get me a +2 Fort save and 2hp/level beyond what I have already spent) little from wisdom (I already have good will saves; the skill benefits are nice but not as good as more skill ranks - this becomes more important with arcane disciple, but not for this build) nothing from charisma (this is a dump stat as built, and while it could be refocused into a social skill build, the skill ranks again outweigh the ability bonus)
control freak 08-08-07, 12:15 AM	if you want the most powerfull current wizard it is (thats a little blatent but you really need these kind of stats because cha is worthless, and str is worthless, and wis all you do is lose 1 will save point) 6 16 12 20 8 8 the HP matters for higher APLS due to fire ball and all AOEs, you WILL die if you dont have decent dex and con and HPs, a con of 12-14 AND have false life empowered(HUGE), personaly i would specialise in either necro, evoc, or Conj so you can use Meta magic school focus, on empower/rapid metamagic
clannagh 08-08-07, 03:03 AM	it may be just my region .. but I see a lot of lesser empower and lesser extend rods on ARs .. i know Kitty_kat's level 8 heirophant packs two of each considering that you are not likely to empower anything much above a level 3 spell anyway, a lesser rod of empower, if you get access, is probably a better option than the feat oh .. and many wizards put points into con for concentration more so than HP
Ralis 08-08-07, 09:41 AM	The one suggestion I'll make is to try and find acess to the Elven Wizards substitution Levesl. Since they make you a "Generalized Specialist"