Bonded Summoner [Archive] - Wizards Community

Bonded Summoner [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
lostpike
04-22-07, 09:48 PM I am looking for ideas for a good bonded summoner build.
jstorrie
04-22-07, 10:36 PM Beguilers and Bards (with Obtain Familiar) make decent Bonded Summoners, since they have other abilities that aren't dependent on spellcasting. You might even want to multiclass with Rogue or Marshal to increase your utility.

Straight Wizard or Sorceror Bonded Summoners aren't all that great, since you lose your spellcasting progression and don't have much you can do without it (other than move your elemental around the board.)
Mithreinmaethor
04-22-07, 10:54 PM Although I know it wouldnt work. But this funny thought just came to me. Why not take for instance beguiler to start. Take an Earth elemental as your elemental. Then when you qualify for it take the 5 levels of earth dreamer. I think you should be able to do Beguiler 4 / Earth Dreamer 5 / Bonded Summoner 6. Could you meld into your elemental ? Be kinda cool to share your spells from within your elemental :D
clik_ml
04-23-07, 01:38 AM Beguilers and Bards (with Obtain Familiar) make decent Bonded Summoners, since they have other abilities that aren't dependent on spellcasting. You might even want to multiclass with Rogue or Marshal to increase your utility.

Straight Wizard or Sorceror Bonded Summoners aren't all that great, since you lose your spellcasting progression and don't have much you can do without it (other than move your elemental around the board.)

Wizards offer many buffs they can throw on their elemental companion and only start lagging in casting by more than one level at character level 7. By then you have a large elemental and up to 3rd level spells to buff with. You won't feel inept at all. There will be plenty of battlefield control spells which a wizard can use to aid their elemental companion as well. A sorcerer is a harder sell since they're inherently delayed one level on new spells though.

Alternatively, 5 Bard/5 Bonded Summoner/5 Sublime Chord is a simple scaffolding for having a huge elemental companion and sublime cord casting at higher levels.
jstorrie
04-23-07, 03:25 AM One (weak) argument in favour of Wiz 5 / Bonded Summoner 10 is the potential to drop Righteous Might on your elemental pal via Arcane Disciple. That is a biiiig familiar.
clik_ml
04-23-07, 04:43 AM One (weak) argument in favour of Wiz 5 / Bonded Summoner 10 is the potential to drop Righteous Might on your elemental pal via Arcane Disciple. That is a biiiig familiar.

I believe you can do it a lot sooner than that by sharing an Enlarge Person that you cast on yourself... of course you have to hang within 5 feet of it the whole time and that can be hazardous.
lostpike
04-23-07, 09:16 AM If it helps at all I want to make it a halfling.
jstorrie
04-23-07, 10:30 AM You can't share Enlarge Person with a familiar. It's not a person!
Howie23
04-23-07, 11:43 AM You can't share Enlarge Person with a familiar. It's not a person!

Share spell bypasses that restriction.
Timlagor
04-23-07, 12:00 PM You can't share Enlarge Person with a familiar. It's not a person!

That's why you use the Share Spell ability of the Familiar.

At many tables, Share Spell also lets you just cast it on the Familiar (no need to stay within 5'). You could certainly do so for "Personal" spells and it seems odd to be more restrictive with more general spells.
boogahwoof
04-23-07, 12:45 PM Well heres my build on this i have a 10th level

human (although i wish i had been able to go halfling)

all stats are after bumps and magical enhancments
str 10 dex 14 con 14 int 20 wis 10 cha 18

1 sorcerer point blank shot preceice shot
2 warmage
3 warmage sculpt spell
4 warmage
5 warmage
6 bonded summ (fire) imp toughness
7 bonded summ
8 bonded summ
9 bonded summ rapid metamagic
10 bonded summ

There are a few reasons I did the build this way, it is possible to do it with a suel human now and take well read at 1st and obtain familiar at 3rd instead of having to take the sorcerer level as i had to. But taking the sorcerer level did give me the access to knowledge planes, and the familiar as well as enlarge person to share with my elemental as previously stated. I went the path of the warmage for a few reasons
1 it let me a value to the party other than just having the elemental
2 you get nifty spells faster than wizards and sorcerers like fire shield and poison, and alot more castings than a wizard
3 I can wear armor and still cast so if i need to be within that 5 foot range to share im not in to bad of shape

I have had immence fun with this build and he just hit 10 this past weekend so i havent had a chance to play him with the huge fire elemental he now has, I am so looking forward to this weekend.
lostpike
04-23-07, 12:57 PM Does anyone think one elemental type is better then the other? what should i consider when choosing?
I really am considering earth or air.
boogahwoof
04-23-07, 03:16 PM On that note, I had access very early in my summoners build to a pot of holding, its a metal pot wieghs 20 pounds but is otherwise just like a bag of holding, its kinda why I wanted to go fire, and I paid 7000 gold for it. That is why I went fire so thats what he is in when I dont want him seen. You really ought to consider the roleplaying aspects of having a eventually huge elemtal running around with you. Unless you have something like a pot of holding for a fire elemental or a simple bag of holding for a water elemental, ide recomend earth or air. Air can simply be there standing by unoticed or a earth can be down beneath you in the ground. Its just gonna be hard to walk through a town for my fire bonded summoner now with a huge sized fire elemental standing next to me. So he rides in the pot until needed.
jstorrie
04-23-07, 03:39 PM lostpike, do not build this out of Warmage. You're not going to like how it turns out. Warmages need to keep their spell progression chugging along or they very quickly fall behind.
Mommy was an Orc
04-23-07, 04:11 PM One thing I think is pretty interesting is that you only actually need 9 levels of Bonded Summoner to get the Elder Elemental - the last part is interesting, but not essential in multiple ways. And Sublime Chord provides quick spell progression.

i.e.

Bard 2/Wizard 3/Bonded Summoner 5/Sublime Chord 1/Bonded Summoner 6-9 - the skill points work for a 14 Int Human. Wide range of 1st-3rd level spells, useful buffs for your sidekick from Bardic Music.

Gets you the Elder Elemental, useful spells for crafting, and eventually 6th level spells.
clik_ml
04-23-07, 04:57 PM One thing I think is pretty interesting is that you only actually need 9 levels of Bonded Summoner to get the Elder Elemental - the last part is interesting, but not essential in multiple ways. And Sublime Chord provides quick spell progression.

i.e.

Bard 2/Wizard 3/Bonded Summoner 5/Sublime Chord 1/Bonded Summoner 6-9 - the skill points work for a 14 Int Human. Wide range of 1st-3rd level spells, useful buffs for your sidekick from Bardic Music.

Gets you the Elder Elemental, useful spells for crafting, and eventually 6th level spells.

While I do like Bonded Summoner/Sublime Chord, a lot, I think that the Bonded Summoner is one of the spellcasting classes that has the wording that precludes it adding to caster levels to new casting lists. ("the character gains new spells per day as if he had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.")

I hate that wording and I hate that there is variation in that wording in prestige classes. Some have the extra word "level" at the end, which makes everything totally kosher. Unfortunately Bonded Summoner isn't one of those nice classes which lets you add caster level to new classes like Sublime Chord which are taken after Bonded Summoner.

Otherwise I totally would have changed my preference from 5 Bard/5 BondedSum/5 SubChord into having the last 3 or 4 levels as Bonded Summoner.

Regarding which elemental flavors I prefer, I like Earth Elementals as beaters (especially if you throw-on Master's Touch to wield whatever big sharp pointy weapon you fancy). Air Elementals make decent second choice for their mobility and whirlwind.

Without a pot or decanter like boogawoof suggests, I'd steer clear of Fire and Water.
Mommy was an Orc
04-23-07, 05:11 PM While I do like Bonded Summoner/Sublime Chord, a lot, I think that the Bonded Summoner is one of the spellcasting classes that has the wording that precludes it adding to caster levels to new casting lists. ("the character gains new spells per day as if he had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.")

I hate that wording and I hate that there is variation in that wording in prestige classes. Some have the extra word "level" at the end, which makes everything totally kosher. Unfortunately Bonded Summoner isn't one of those nice classes which lets you add caster level to new classes like Sublime Chord which are taken after Bonded Summoner.

Otherwise I totally would have changed my preference from 5 Bard/5 BondedSum/5 SubChord into having the last 3 or 4 levels as Bonded Summoner.

Hmm. I'd probably still go with that build - you lose 6th level spells, but then you continue to advance the Wizard levels, gaining you a new set of 4th level spells. It isn't quite as useful, but I think gaining 4th/5th level spells at 11th really improves the mid-levels of the build.
evilaustintom
04-24-07, 11:48 AM My wizard/bonded summoner (earth)

Deep Halfling Wiz (diviner) 5/BnS 2 (currently)
Diety - Kord!
Str - 10
Dex - 16
Con - 14
Int - 15
Wis - 14
Cha - 8

Feats: Arcane Disciple (nobility), Practiced Spellcaster, Craft Wondrous Item, Yondalla's Blessing

(9th level feat will be Arcane Disciple [competition])

He's not completely min/maxed - mostly built around the role-playing flavor (halfling wizard worshipper of Kord). However, he is still a strong party member. He fills the tank role of a group fairly well, and his elemental will be growing in power exponentially as the PC increases in levels.

One of the big strengths in the p-class is the ability to share spells with the familiar. With this build, I can share spells like divine power (24 HD elemental at 14th level), enlarge person or righteous might (gargantuan elemental at 10th level), master's touch (skilled at wielding exotic weapons - I've already bought a large axe on an AR), shield (which stack with greater mage armor and cover from earthgliding), overland flight (on an earth elemental?)...the possibilities are quite broad. Other spells I use regularly with him:

Heroics (Spell Compenium - AR access needed)
Chain of Eyes
Lesser Telepathic Bond
Bull's Strength
Divine Favor (through arcane disciple)

With the limited numbers of spells, it is difficult to be a general spellcaster, though - primarily you have to focus on one thing. Still, the class can be quite powerful, if played correctly.

As far as elemental choices, I would suggest earth first, then air. Earth can get into small areas (particularly underground) much easier. Also, both elementals lend themselves to staying hidden in 'city adventures' more easily. Fire and Water stick out like sore thumbs with nowhere to hide.

A warmage would be missing out on all those spells you could be sharing with an elemental. However, I guess it would give you something to do in battle other than buffing your elemental ("Go Rocky!"). It just seems that the loss of spell levels makes it not a super attractive choice.

Tom Thowe
boogahwoof
04-24-07, 03:59 PM Just remember that advice was from someone who didnt think you can share enlarge person with your elemental, the biggest trick of the class. I will admit, in my group there is a 10 level warmage, and I cannot keep up with her sheer boom power. Like I said in my earlier post its been a very fun build to play, not all builds need be game breakers. I am having to consider retraining one of my feats to practiced spellcaster to try to keep up somewhat.
evilaustintom
04-24-07, 04:59 PM That's why you use the Share Spell ability of the Familiar.

At many tables, Share Spell also lets you just cast it on the Familiar (no need to stay within 5'). You could certainly do so for "Personal" spells and it seems odd to be more restrictive with more general spells.
I originally started using enlarge person just on my familiar (enlarge hawk, reduce my halfling, he could carry me around). However, I soon figured out that it wouldn't work. The fact that it is not a personal spell keeps you from being able to act as a touch spell to apply only to the familiar.

However, there is nothing stopping you from casting the spell on yourself, and SHARING it on your familiar (or with this discussion, an elemental).

As a few other posts have mentioned, however, that can be a bit dangerous. I may try it out, though, once I hit 10th level. A gargantuan elemental is still tough to walk all the way around in combat...

Tom Thowe
pimeister
04-24-07, 08:58 PM Actually, warmage/bonded summoner isnt that bad. I currently have a 7 wmage / 6 bonded summoner earth. The spell progression was a little painful, but a warmage can live off his 4th level spells for quite some time. And when the elemental gets huge and higher, it becomes so much more effective. just remember to dismiss it before it dies since 15d8 is painful to take in the middle of a fight. Also, beware going for 10th level bonded summoner. coming back from the dead gets expensive if you have some high end purchases in mind to save up for due to requiring resurrection.
boolean
04-25-07, 02:16 AM Also, beware going for 10th level bonded summoner. coming back from the dead gets expensive if you have some high end purchases in mind to save up for due to requiring resurrection.

Resurrection doesn't work either. Looking at the elemental type, you need limited wish, true resurrection, miracle or wish.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
lostpike 04-22-07, 09:48 PM	I am looking for ideas for a good bonded summoner build.
jstorrie 04-22-07, 10:36 PM	Beguilers and Bards (with Obtain Familiar) make decent Bonded Summoners, since they have other abilities that aren't dependent on spellcasting. You might even want to multiclass with Rogue or Marshal to increase your utility. Straight Wizard or Sorceror Bonded Summoners aren't all that great, since you lose your spellcasting progression and don't have much you can do without it (other than move your elemental around the board.)
Mithreinmaethor 04-22-07, 10:54 PM	Although I know it wouldnt work. But this funny thought just came to me. Why not take for instance beguiler to start. Take an Earth elemental as your elemental. Then when you qualify for it take the 5 levels of earth dreamer. I think you should be able to do Beguiler 4 / Earth Dreamer 5 / Bonded Summoner 6. Could you meld into your elemental ? Be kinda cool to share your spells from within your elemental :D
clik_ml 04-23-07, 01:38 AM	Beguilers and Bards (with Obtain Familiar) make decent Bonded Summoners, since they have other abilities that aren't dependent on spellcasting. You might even want to multiclass with Rogue or Marshal to increase your utility. Straight Wizard or Sorceror Bonded Summoners aren't all that great, since you lose your spellcasting progression and don't have much you can do without it (other than move your elemental around the board.) Wizards offer many buffs they can throw on their elemental companion and only start lagging in casting by more than one level at character level 7. By then you have a large elemental and up to 3rd level spells to buff with. You won't feel inept at all. There will be plenty of battlefield control spells which a wizard can use to aid their elemental companion as well. A sorcerer is a harder sell since they're inherently delayed one level on new spells though. Alternatively, 5 Bard/5 Bonded Summoner/5 Sublime Chord is a simple scaffolding for having a huge elemental companion and sublime cord casting at higher levels.
jstorrie 04-23-07, 03:25 AM	One (weak) argument in favour of Wiz 5 / Bonded Summoner 10 is the potential to drop Righteous Might on your elemental pal via Arcane Disciple. That is a biiiig familiar.
clik_ml 04-23-07, 04:43 AM	One (weak) argument in favour of Wiz 5 / Bonded Summoner 10 is the potential to drop Righteous Might on your elemental pal via Arcane Disciple. That is a biiiig familiar. I believe you can do it a lot sooner than that by sharing an Enlarge Person that you cast on yourself... of course you have to hang within 5 feet of it the whole time and that can be hazardous.
lostpike 04-23-07, 09:16 AM	If it helps at all I want to make it a halfling.
jstorrie 04-23-07, 10:30 AM	You can't share Enlarge Person with a familiar. It's not a person!
Howie23 04-23-07, 11:43 AM	You can't share Enlarge Person with a familiar. It's not a person! Share spell bypasses that restriction.
Timlagor 04-23-07, 12:00 PM	You can't share Enlarge Person with a familiar. It's not a person! That's why you use the Share Spell ability of the Familiar. At many tables, Share Spell also lets you just cast it on the Familiar (no need to stay within 5'). You could certainly do so for "Personal" spells and it seems odd to be more restrictive with more general spells.
boogahwoof 04-23-07, 12:45 PM	Well heres my build on this i have a 10th level human (although i wish i had been able to go halfling) all stats are after bumps and magical enhancments str 10 dex 14 con 14 int 20 wis 10 cha 18 1 sorcerer point blank shot preceice shot 2 warmage 3 warmage sculpt spell 4 warmage 5 warmage 6 bonded summ (fire) imp toughness 7 bonded summ 8 bonded summ 9 bonded summ rapid metamagic 10 bonded summ There are a few reasons I did the build this way, it is possible to do it with a suel human now and take well read at 1st and obtain familiar at 3rd instead of having to take the sorcerer level as i had to. But taking the sorcerer level did give me the access to knowledge planes, and the familiar as well as enlarge person to share with my elemental as previously stated. I went the path of the warmage for a few reasons 1 it let me a value to the party other than just having the elemental 2 you get nifty spells faster than wizards and sorcerers like fire shield and poison, and alot more castings than a wizard 3 I can wear armor and still cast so if i need to be within that 5 foot range to share im not in to bad of shape I have had immence fun with this build and he just hit 10 this past weekend so i havent had a chance to play him with the huge fire elemental he now has, I am so looking forward to this weekend.
lostpike 04-23-07, 12:57 PM	Does anyone think one elemental type is better then the other? what should i consider when choosing? I really am considering earth or air.
boogahwoof 04-23-07, 03:16 PM	On that note, I had access very early in my summoners build to a pot of holding, its a metal pot wieghs 20 pounds but is otherwise just like a bag of holding, its kinda why I wanted to go fire, and I paid 7000 gold for it. That is why I went fire so thats what he is in when I dont want him seen. You really ought to consider the roleplaying aspects of having a eventually huge elemtal running around with you. Unless you have something like a pot of holding for a fire elemental or a simple bag of holding for a water elemental, ide recomend earth or air. Air can simply be there standing by unoticed or a earth can be down beneath you in the ground. Its just gonna be hard to walk through a town for my fire bonded summoner now with a huge sized fire elemental standing next to me. So he rides in the pot until needed.
jstorrie 04-23-07, 03:39 PM	lostpike, do not build this out of Warmage. You're not going to like how it turns out. Warmages need to keep their spell progression chugging along or they very quickly fall behind.
Mommy was an Orc 04-23-07, 04:11 PM	One thing I think is pretty interesting is that you only actually need 9 levels of Bonded Summoner to get the Elder Elemental - the last part is interesting, but not essential in multiple ways. And Sublime Chord provides quick spell progression. i.e. Bard 2/Wizard 3/Bonded Summoner 5/Sublime Chord 1/Bonded Summoner 6-9 - the skill points work for a 14 Int Human. Wide range of 1st-3rd level spells, useful buffs for your sidekick from Bardic Music. Gets you the Elder Elemental, useful spells for crafting, and eventually 6th level spells.
clik_ml 04-23-07, 04:57 PM	One thing I think is pretty interesting is that you only actually need 9 levels of Bonded Summoner to get the Elder Elemental - the last part is interesting, but not essential in multiple ways. And Sublime Chord provides quick spell progression. i.e. Bard 2/Wizard 3/Bonded Summoner 5/Sublime Chord 1/Bonded Summoner 6-9 - the skill points work for a 14 Int Human. Wide range of 1st-3rd level spells, useful buffs for your sidekick from Bardic Music. Gets you the Elder Elemental, useful spells for crafting, and eventually 6th level spells. While I do like Bonded Summoner/Sublime Chord, a lot, I think that the Bonded Summoner is one of the spellcasting classes that has the wording that precludes it adding to caster levels to new casting lists. ("the character gains new spells per day as if he had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.") I hate that wording and I hate that there is variation in that wording in prestige classes. Some have the extra word "level" at the end, which makes everything totally kosher. Unfortunately Bonded Summoner isn't one of those nice classes which lets you add caster level to new classes like Sublime Chord which are taken after Bonded Summoner. Otherwise I totally would have changed my preference from 5 Bard/5 BondedSum/5 SubChord into having the last 3 or 4 levels as Bonded Summoner. Regarding which elemental flavors I prefer, I like Earth Elementals as beaters (especially if you throw-on Master's Touch to wield whatever big sharp pointy weapon you fancy). Air Elementals make decent second choice for their mobility and whirlwind. Without a pot or decanter like boogawoof suggests, I'd steer clear of Fire and Water.
Mommy was an Orc 04-23-07, 05:11 PM	While I do like Bonded Summoner/Sublime Chord, a lot, I think that the Bonded Summoner is one of the spellcasting classes that has the wording that precludes it adding to caster levels to new casting lists. ("the character gains new spells per day as if he had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.") I hate that wording and I hate that there is variation in that wording in prestige classes. Some have the extra word "level" at the end, which makes everything totally kosher. Unfortunately Bonded Summoner isn't one of those nice classes which lets you add caster level to new classes like Sublime Chord which are taken after Bonded Summoner. Otherwise I totally would have changed my preference from 5 Bard/5 BondedSum/5 SubChord into having the last 3 or 4 levels as Bonded Summoner. Hmm. I'd probably still go with that build - you lose 6th level spells, but then you continue to advance the Wizard levels, gaining you a new set of 4th level spells. It isn't quite as useful, but I think gaining 4th/5th level spells at 11th really improves the mid-levels of the build.
evilaustintom 04-24-07, 11:48 AM	My wizard/bonded summoner (earth) Deep Halfling Wiz (diviner) 5/BnS 2 (currently) Diety - Kord! Str - 10 Dex - 16 Con - 14 Int - 15 Wis - 14 Cha - 8 Feats: Arcane Disciple (nobility), Practiced Spellcaster, Craft Wondrous Item, Yondalla's Blessing (9th level feat will be Arcane Disciple [competition]) He's not completely min/maxed - mostly built around the role-playing flavor (halfling wizard worshipper of Kord). However, he is still a strong party member. He fills the tank role of a group fairly well, and his elemental will be growing in power exponentially as the PC increases in levels. One of the big strengths in the p-class is the ability to share spells with the familiar. With this build, I can share spells like divine power (24 HD elemental at 14th level), enlarge person or righteous might (gargantuan elemental at 10th level), master's touch (skilled at wielding exotic weapons - I've already bought a large axe on an AR), shield (which stack with greater mage armor and cover from earthgliding), overland flight (on an earth elemental?)...the possibilities are quite broad. Other spells I use regularly with him: Heroics (Spell Compenium - AR access needed) Chain of Eyes Lesser Telepathic Bond Bull's Strength Divine Favor (through arcane disciple) With the limited numbers of spells, it is difficult to be a general spellcaster, though - primarily you have to focus on one thing. Still, the class can be quite powerful, if played correctly. As far as elemental choices, I would suggest earth first, then air. Earth can get into small areas (particularly underground) much easier. Also, both elementals lend themselves to staying hidden in 'city adventures' more easily. Fire and Water stick out like sore thumbs with nowhere to hide. A warmage would be missing out on all those spells you could be sharing with an elemental. However, I guess it would give you something to do in battle other than buffing your elemental ("Go Rocky!"). It just seems that the loss of spell levels makes it not a super attractive choice. Tom Thowe
boogahwoof 04-24-07, 03:59 PM	Just remember that advice was from someone who didnt think you can share enlarge person with your elemental, the biggest trick of the class. I will admit, in my group there is a 10 level warmage, and I cannot keep up with her sheer boom power. Like I said in my earlier post its been a very fun build to play, not all builds need be game breakers. I am having to consider retraining one of my feats to practiced spellcaster to try to keep up somewhat.
evilaustintom 04-24-07, 04:59 PM	That's why you use the Share Spell ability of the Familiar. At many tables, Share Spell also lets you just cast it on the Familiar (no need to stay within 5'). You could certainly do so for "Personal" spells and it seems odd to be more restrictive with more general spells. I originally started using enlarge person just on my familiar (enlarge hawk, reduce my halfling, he could carry me around). However, I soon figured out that it wouldn't work. The fact that it is not a personal spell keeps you from being able to act as a touch spell to apply only to the familiar. However, there is nothing stopping you from casting the spell on yourself, and SHARING it on your familiar (or with this discussion, an elemental). As a few other posts have mentioned, however, that can be a bit dangerous. I may try it out, though, once I hit 10th level. A gargantuan elemental is still tough to walk all the way around in combat... Tom Thowe
pimeister 04-24-07, 08:58 PM	Actually, warmage/bonded summoner isnt that bad. I currently have a 7 wmage / 6 bonded summoner earth. The spell progression was a little painful, but a warmage can live off his 4th level spells for quite some time. And when the elemental gets huge and higher, it becomes so much more effective. just remember to dismiss it before it dies since 15d8 is painful to take in the middle of a fight. Also, beware going for 10th level bonded summoner. coming back from the dead gets expensive if you have some high end purchases in mind to save up for due to requiring resurrection.
boolean 04-25-07, 02:16 AM	Also, beware going for 10th level bonded summoner. coming back from the dead gets expensive if you have some high end purchases in mind to save up for due to requiring resurrection. Resurrection doesn't work either. Looking at the elemental type, you need limited wish, true resurrection, miracle or wish.