Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jstorrie 02-14-07, 09:28 PM	Is the cost of one feat (EWP Bone Bow) worth a composite longbow that deals a d10 and has an unrestricted, scaling Strength bonus? I think this will be a favourite of archers this year.
Morgen 02-15-07, 12:33 AM	3d10 crits > 3d8 crits? What else does it do? Longer range? Some sort of wierd rule or something? Now your playing with power, super power.
clannagh 02-15-07, 12:37 AM	d8 vs d10 may not be worth a feat on the other hand centaurs with enlarged versions .....
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 01:15 AM	Well, the real bonus is the fact that you aren't locked into a specific strength bonus. Of course, you can only jack up your STR so far, even combining Barbarian, Wildrunner, and Dragon Disciple, and Reckless Rage...Though the Bone Bow is clearly superior to the great bow as a choice...
magebeast 02-15-07, 01:16 AM	The wording on it is weird. As the OP suggests, you could read that your strength modifier is applied to damage, and you don't actually have to buy the specific +strength modifier to it.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 01:18 AM	The wording on it is weird. As the OP suggests, you could read that your strength modifier is applied to damage, and you don't actually have to buy the specific +strength modifier to it. If you had to buy a specific STR modifier, it would list a price for such, just like the shortbow, longbow, and greatbow do in the description of their composite versions.
boogahwoof 02-15-07, 01:35 AM	also i saw in the entry in the frostburn book that you can only shoot 1 shot a round with it? why is it worth it? i did not see anywhere that stated the str mod could be higher than +4. oh and you also take a -4 to hit with it when used as a martial weapon:weep:
copper_wyrmling 02-15-07, 01:41 AM	If you had to buy a specific STR modifier, it would list a price for such, just like the shortbow, longbow, and greatbow do in the description of their composite versions. Well... except it says it's treated as a composite longbow for applying Strength to damage. I don't really see how you can read that to mean that it automatically applies your Str bonus with no cap... I would assume you just use the composite longbow rules.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 02:03 AM	also i saw in the entry in the frostburn book that you can only shoot 1 shot a round with it? why is it worth it? i did not see anywhere that stated the str mod could be higher than +4. oh and you also take a -4 to hit with it when used as a martial weapon:weep: It only takes a Full Round action with a -4 penalty if used as a martial weapon, meaning without exotic weapon proficiency. Well... except it says it's treated as a composite longbow for applying Strength to damage. I don't really see how you can read that to mean that it automatically applies your Str bonus with no cap... I would assume you just use the composite longbow rules. Exactly. It says it is treated as a composite longbow for applying strength to damage. As opposed to a non-composite bow where you do not apply your strength to damage. Again, the ommision of a separate cost and listing for specific composite versions is very strong evidence that it was indeed intended to always apply your strength bonus, whatever it may be. Also note that in every other instance of a composte bow, asside from separate listings, they also had separate prices. For instance, a normal longbow costs 75gp, whereas a composite longbow costs 100gp, plus an additional 100gp per point of strength bonus you wish to add. There is no such separate listing for the bone bow because it is not needed, as the base version already accomodates any strength bonus.
copper_wyrmling 02-15-07, 02:10 AM	Exactly. It says it is treated as a composite longbow for applying strength to damage. As opposed to a non-composite bow where you do not apply your strength to damage. Again, the ommision of a separate cost and listing for specific composite versions is very strong evidence that it was indeed intended to always apply your strength bonus, whatever it may be. Also note that in every other instance of a composte bow, asside from separate listings, they also had separate prices. For instance, a normal longbow costs 75gp, whereas a composite longbow costs 100gp, plus an additional 100gp per point of strength bonus you wish to add. There is no such separate listing for the bone bow because it is not needed, as the base version already accomodates any strength bonus. The way I read it was that you use the same rules that you use for composite longbows, if you want to add a higher Str bonus - so 100gp for each point you want to add. It's not specifically listed because it doesn't need to be: it just tells you to refer back to the composite longbow rules. (The composite longbow itself doesn't mention the extra cost in the table; that's in the detailed description. The detailed description for the bone bow tells you to use the composite longbow rules.) It works like a composite longbow for the purposes of adding Str to damage. Composite longbows are all made with a specific Str rating, allowing you to add a limited amount of Str to damage and causing you to take penalties if you don't have the requisite Str. Do you also believe that the bone bow never causes you to take penalties for having a low Strength score?
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 02:27 AM	The way I read it was that you use the same rules that you use for composite longbows, if you want to add a higher Str bonus - so 100gp for each point you want to add. It's not specifically listed because it doesn't need to be: it just tells you to refer back to the composite longbow rules. (The composite longbow itself doesn't mention the extra cost in the table; that's in the detailed description. The detailed description for the bone bow tells you to use the composite longbow rules.) It works like a composite longbow for the purposes of adding Str to damage. Composite longbows are all made with a specific Str rating, allowing you to add a limited amount of Str to damage and causing you to take penalties if you don't have the requisite Str. Do you also believe that the bone bow never causes you to take penalties for having a low Strength score? Occam's razor. You're argument is much more complicated than the alternative, and therefore much less likely the case. It makes no sense to apply the cost of adding strength bonus from the composite longbow to the bone bow. In EVERY other instance of a weapon having a composite version, the composite version costs MORE than the base weapon. For Example, the basic Greatbow from CW (the most similar to the bone bow) costs 150gp, and the composite version costs 200gp, and an additional 200gp per point of strength bonus you wish to apply. In contrast, the Bone Bow, as presented in Frostburn, has a cost of 250gp, and no additional listing of a composite version. On another note, the Bone Bow, unlike other bows, states you must be able to brace against the ground or cieling, so it would be quite useless to a flying character.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-15-07, 02:59 AM	I'd have to go with copper on this one. I think the increased initial cost stems from the capability to use it in melee. Why they didn't mention the cost increases is beyond me. Or if I'm wrong, why they wouldn't have explained it in clearer language. I would be curious to see some errata, faq, or sustserv on it though. Oh, and be careful not to blindly follow Occam's razor. It's a useful diagnostic tool, but relatively weak when it comes to proving a point.
Mithreinmaethor 02-15-07, 07:10 AM	Just buy a Great Crossbow for the 2d8 18-20/ x2
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 08:17 AM	I'd have to go with copper on this one. I think the increased initial cost stems from the capability to use it in melee. Why they didn't mention the cost increases is beyond me. Or if I'm wrong, why they wouldn't have explained it in clearer language. I would be curious to see some errata, faq, or sustserv on it though. Oh, and be careful not to blindly follow Occam's razor. It's a useful diagnostic tool, but relatively weak when it comes to proving a point. Uhh...where are you getting that it can be in melee?
LachlarlanIII 02-15-07, 10:13 AM	Just buy a Great Crossbow for the 2d8 18-20/ x2 Not worth it unless you carry more than one and have your cohort reload the one's you aren't using. Full-round reload time makes it a subpar weapon.
RanielK 02-15-07, 10:33 AM	Another benefit for the Bone Bow is its being treated as a longbow for the purpose of feats. Thus you need ewp (bone bow) to use it effectively, but can take WF, WS, GWF, GWS, Imp Crit and other such feats for longbow. That way if something unfortunate happens to your bone bow, your feats still apply to any back up weapon you might pick up, which would most likely be a regular old longbow. Greatbow has no such reciprocity. You need EWP, WF, WS, et al. for greatbow, so if it gets sundered and you're outta back ups, your friend who doesn't believe in the greatbow can't loan you a back up without your taking a major hit in damage and to hit.
RanielK 02-15-07, 10:43 AM	Occam's razor. You're argument is much more complicated than the alternative, and therefore much less likely the case. It makes no sense to apply the cost of adding strength bonus from the composite longbow to the bone bow. In EVERY other instance of a weapon having a composite version, the composite version costs MORE than the base weapon. For Example, the basic Greatbow from CW (the most similar to the bone bow) costs 150gp, and the composite version costs 200gp, and an additional 200gp per point of strength bonus you wish to apply. In contrast, the Bone Bow, as presented in Frostburn, has a cost of 250gp, and no additional listing of a composite version. On another note, the Bone Bow, unlike other bows, states you must be able to brace against the ground or cieling, so it would be quite useless to a flying character. Occam's razor cuts both ways. Rules already exist to describe compositeness. Greatbows use +200 gp per +1 str mod, so are a change to existing rules. Greatbows make no other mention of compositeness, so by your reading, one could buy a +0 comp greatbow and make full use of a +8 str mod since the greatbow rules text doesnt say you can't and doesn't refer to the longbow, composite text where such limits are stated. Both great and long bows come in two types, comp and non comp, so need two different buy in levels. All bone bows are composite and use the longbow, composite rules text which states there is a cost over and above buying the bow of +100 gp per +1 str bonus. The simplest reading is to apply all of the rules for compositeness. This includes limiting the str bonus applicable to the bow's max str and paying the mark up per str bonus allowed.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 11:33 AM	Occam's razor cuts both ways. Rules already exist to describe compositeness. Greatbows use +200 gp per +1 str mod, so are a change to existing rules. Greatbows make no other mention of compositeness, so by your reading, one could buy a +0 comp greatbow and make full use of a +8 str mod since the greatbow rules text doesnt say you can't and doesn't refer to the longbow, composite text where such limits are stated. Both great and long bows come in two types, comp and non comp, so need two different buy in levels. All bone bows are composite and use the longbow, composite rules text which states there is a cost over and above buying the bow of +100 gp per +1 str bonus. The simplest reading is to apply all of the rules for compositeness. This includes limiting the str bonus applicable to the bow's max str and paying the mark up per str bonus allowed. Except the text to for the Greatbow specifically refers you to the text for the Composite Greatbow for specific rules regarding compositeness. Also, according to the chart in Complete Adventurer P116, the Greatbow also can also be treated as a longbow for the purpose of weapon focus and the like. Also, the wording in the greatbow text is significantly different than the bone bow text. Greatbow:"...If you have a bonus for high strength, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite greatbow (see below) but not a regular greatbow. Composite Greatbow:"...Composite greatbows follow all of the normal rules for composite bows, including strength ratings. Each point of strength bonus granted by teh bow adds 200gp to the cost." Bone Bow:"...A bone bow functions as a composite longbow with regard to applying the users strength bonus to damage done with arrows shot from it." The key difference is that the composite greatbow follows the normal rules, whereas the bone bow simply functions as a composite longbow, not requiring anything beyond the base weapon to apply strength bonus to damage. This is a far simpler interpretation, and instead of breaking the precedent for composite bows and making it a redundant weapon, makes the bone bow a much more unique exotic weapon. I've submitted the question to customer service, and while I don't put much stock in what they say, it will be interesting to know where they stand. [EDIT] Speak of the devil, just got the reply from customer service and it looks like they are on my side... Subject Is there such a thing as a composite Bone Bow from Frostburn? Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 02/15/2007 08:34 AM Thomas, Yes it supports any STR modifier as written. But it does require an Exotic Weapon Proficiency as opposed to a martial proficiency as the Composite Longbow does. Take Care! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Zephreum. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (Thomas Stann) 02/15/2007 05:23 AM Ok, the Bone Bow from Frostburn states "A Bone Bow functions as a composite longbow with regard to applying the user's strength bonus to damage done with arrows shot from it." Does this mean that for 250gp I get a bow that supports any strength bonus to damage with no upward cap? Or is it meant to imply that, like a composite longbow, you must buy a version with a specific strength bonus built in? If that is the case, how much does it cost to add each point of strength bonus to the bow?
Warforget 02-15-07, 11:49 AM	Not worth it unless you carry more than one and have your cohort reload the one's you aren't using. Full-round reload time makes it a subpar weapon. Can i use Rabid reload feat to Grossbow great get my reload as move action
LachlarlanIII 02-15-07, 11:53 AM	Cant you use rabid reload feat to reload Grossbow great ???? From the SRD: RAPID RELOAD [GENERAL] Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, or heavy). Prerequisite: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen). Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of crossbow is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow) or a move action (for a heavy crossbow). Reloading a crossbow still provokes an attack of opportunity. If you have selected this feat for hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow. Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, or a full-round action to reload a heavy crossbow. Special: You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow. A fighter may select Rapid Reload as one of his fighter bonus feats No, you can't.
jstorrie 02-15-07, 11:57 AM	It's definitely worth an EWP. It also allows you do do a one-level EWM dip, instead of a two-level OOtBI dip, for Close Combat Shot. I predict that the 597 cookie-cutter archer will look something like this: Human 16 16 14 8 10 8 1 Ranger Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Track 2 Ranger Rapid Shot 3 Barbarian EWP Bone Bow 4 Fighter Weapon Focus Bone Bow 5 Fighter Ranged Pin (? this feat is definitely optional, unless I'm counting prereqs wrong) 6 Fighter Extra Rage 7 EWM 8 Fighter Weapon Spec Bone Bow 9 Fighter Reckless Rage 10 Fighter Ranged Weapon Mastery 11 Fighter 12 Fighter Woodland Archer, Improved Precise Shot 13 Fighter 14 Fighter Greater Weapon Focus Bone Bow 15 Ranger Endurance, Greater Weapon Spec Bone Bow There are finally enough good archer feats that humans pull into the lead again! This is great. I predict the Wood Elf population will head towards more reasonable levels over time. Reck Rage plus Ranged Weapon Mastery is a significant +6 to arrow damage that wasn't possible to build around in 596.
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-07, 12:05 PM	I think that's a pretty clear cut you need to pay 100 gold per bonus. A Composite Longbow does not apply your strength bonus at all unless you pay the 100 gold per bonus. Bone Bow:"...A bone bow functions as a composite longbow with regard to applying the users strength bonus to damage done with arrows shot from it."
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 12:10 PM	I think that's a pretty clear cut you need to pay 100 gold per bonus. A Composite Longbow does not apply your strength bonus at all unless you pay the 100 gold per bonus. And think it's pretty clear cut that you do not, because it says itself that it already functions as such without additional spending...that and customer service seems to agree with me...
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-07, 12:27 PM	And think it's pretty clear cut that you do not, because it says itself that it already functions as such without additional spending...that and customer service seems to agree with me... And that will help you how when your DM rules against you and you therefore have a +0 Strength bow as an archer? The worst cheese to be using is when you do unbelievable damage on the 1st round of combat, the DM asks you how you're doing it with a bow without a strength bonus, and you give him your answer. Not to mention, you committed the classic CustServ mistake - if you want an honest answer, you give both sides of the question. Garbage in, garbage out. "Bone bows are treated as Composite Longbows for Strength bonus damage, but don't list the cost. Composite Longbows don't do extra damage unless they pay 100 gp/bonus. Does this mean one of the following: To make a bone bow do more strength damage, you need to pay the same cost as a Composite Longbow? Bone bows automatically are treated as a composite longbow of the proper strength?"
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 12:50 PM	And that will help you how when your DM rules against you and you therefore have a +0 Strength bow as an archer? The worst cheese to be using is when you do unbelievable damage on the 1st round of combat, the DM asks you how you're doing it with a bow without a strength bonus, and you give him your answer. Not to mention, you committed the classic CustServ mistake - if you want an honest answer, you give both sides of the question. Garbage in, garbage out. "Bone bows are treated as Composite Longbows for Strength bonus damage, but don't list the cost. Composite Longbows don't do extra damage unless they pay 100 gp/bonus. Does this mean one of the following: To make a bone bow do more strength damage, you need to pay the same cost as a Composite Longbow? Bone bows automatically are treated as a composite longbow of the proper strength?" You've made a significant error in the phrasing of your custserv question. Nowhere does it say bone bows are treated as composite longbows. It says they FUNCTION as composite longbows. Functioning as a composite longbow means applying your strength bonus to damage. Being treated as a composite longbow means something quite different, and would lend itself more readily to your argument. If the base bone bow didn't allow you to add your strength bonus to damage, it wouldn't be functioning as a composite longbow now would it? And as far as a it being cheese, if you try to make a build around it, you'll find it's really not. Between the exotic weapon proficiency, and all the stuff you have to mix together to jack up your strength score, you wind up sacrificing a lot of the other things most archer builds include to get extra damage. So it's really not that broken at all, but merely allows for a different type of archer, and ultimately one that would probably be more effective just charging into melee with power attack...Also, I submitted your version of the question to customer service. Let's see if it makes a difference.
jstorrie 02-15-07, 12:55 PM	I think this question is better of being posed to Infinite Monkeys than CustServ. CustServ doesn't suffer from garbage in, garbage out - it just suffers from garbage out. But the description of the bone bow makes it pretty clear that it's designed for putting a lot of strength behind its shots. It requires bracing against a floor or solid object just to shoot, and EWP for a significantly more expensive 1d10 instead of 1d8 seems very underpowered. You could already pull off this sort of cheese in 597 without the Bone Bow, thanks to the opening up of mighty bows greater than +4; you just had to take Quick Draw and a bag full of mighty comps of various strengths.
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-07, 12:58 PM	You've made a significant error in the phrasing of your custserv question. Nowhere does it say bone bows are treated as composite longbows. It says they FUNCTION as composite longbows. Functioning as a composite longbow means applying your strength bonus to damage. No, it doesn't. Composite Longbows off the rack don't add strength to damage...
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 01:03 PM	No, it doesn't. Composite Longbows off the rack don't add strength to damage... Actually it does, it's just that it's Composite [+0] Longbow, allowing a character with a 0 strength bonus to damage, as opposed to a regular longbow which does not allow you to add strength bonus to damage. It's an important distinction. It should also be noted that with a Composite [+0] Longbow, you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls if you have a lower strength bonus, whereas with a regular longbow you just apply your strength penalty to damage. It could be said the the Bone Bow effectively has an infinite strength rating, and that bracing it counters the normal penalty one takes for having STR lower than the bow's rating.
jstorrie 02-15-07, 01:04 PM	"A bone bow functions as a composite longbow with regard to applying the user's Strength bonus to damage done with arrows shot with it." (Frostburn, 75) This is the exact sentence, to be clear. I would interpret this to mean that a bone bow allows you to add your strength to damage. Normally bows do not allow you to do that. Composite longbows do. Composite longbows have additional restrictions, but the bone bow entry does not mention them. This isn't all that unbalancing given that you could achieve the same thing in a much stupider way with Quick Draw, but it's definitely a table variation issue until some clarifying ruling is put in the LGCS about it.
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-07, 01:18 PM	But the description of the bone bow makes it pretty clear that it's designed for putting a lot of strength behind its shots. It requires bracing against a floor or solid object just to shoot, and EWP for a significantly more expensive 1d10 instead of 1d8 seems very underpowered. Two-Bladed Sword = d8 instead of d6 for Quarterstaff Bastard Sword = d10 instead of d8 for Longsword Dwarven Waraxe = d10 instead of d8 for Battleaxe Greatbow = d10 instead of d8 for Composite Longbow Elven Thinblade = d8 instead of d6 for Rapier Elven Lightblade = d6 instead of d4 for Kukri Most exotic weapons in 3.5 consist of giving a bonus of +1 to average damage. It also doesn't require bracing against a floor to shoot. It has spikes so you can brace against the floor to shoot. If that were an actual limit on the bow, you should run away from that EWP as fast as you can - there are going to be situations where a wizard wants to cast mass fly or it would be better if you were up in the air, and being unable to shoot
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-07, 01:24 PM	"A bone bow functions as a composite longbow with regard to applying the user's Strength bonus to damage done with arrows shot with it." And a composite longbow off the rack applies a bonus of +0 to damage done with arrows shot with it unless you pay extra...I'd point out that they said composite longbow - they don't need to say composite longbow, they can just say "A bone bow applies the user's Strength modifier to damage done with arrows shot with it." That's a simple, straightforward thing to say. Why go all complex by comparing it with a composite longbow?
cycloptic_squirrel 02-15-07, 03:27 PM	Uhh...where are you getting that it can be in melee? Wow. What other embarassing things did I say in my sleep deprived state? I thik I read martial=melee. So I definetly stand corrected on this issue. The relavent section of the composite longbow reads, "...this feature allows you to add your strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow." (PHB 119) There's also no indication of this in the PHB table of strength ratings or extra cost, which would be consistant with the frostburn table. So I'm torn. The rules seem pretty straightfoward (though an extra line of text to clarify would've been nice), but the customer service statement seemed to clearly rule the other way. How binding is a customer service statement?
copper_wyrmling 02-15-07, 05:21 PM	Wow. What other embarassing things did I say in my sleep deprived state? I thik I read martial=melee. So I definetly stand corrected on this issue. The relavent section of the composite longbow reads, "...this feature allows you to add your strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow." (PHB 119) There's also no indication of this in the PHB table of strength ratings or extra cost, which would be consistant with the frostburn table. So I'm torn. The rules seem pretty straightfoward (though an extra line of text to clarify would've been nice), but the customer service statement seemed to clearly rule the other way. How binding is a customer service statement? They're not. A judge may use them as an indication, if they so choose, but it's not any more binding than "Some people I respect argued this way on Infinite Monkeys" (and CustServ tends to be less accurate than Infinite Monkeys if there's actually an unambiguous rule somewhere - IM has a lot of people who'll catch that sort of thing). People have demonstrated that if you send in a question to CustServ, then wait a couple of weeks and send it in again, you can get two completely different answers (and that's not just hearsay, I've done it myself). I don't actually think Jay's CustServ answer adds anything to the debate either way. He asked if you could get composite bone bows. They said the bone bow could support any Str modifier. A composite longbow can also support any Str modifier (now that we don't use the +4 maximum any more), you just need to pay extra for a higher-rated bow.
clannagh 02-15-07, 05:33 PM	Assuming you allow the rules lawyer loophole and allow unlimited strength for free the item becomes way to cheap, (especially in the hands of a STR 30+ large size reckless raging barbarian centaur). This suggests either: 1. The more liberal interpretation is wrong and commonsense should prevail and you pay for each strength upgrade. OR 2. The item is priced wrongly and should be removed from LG or the price corrected. My vote is for option 1. Unless the circle rule otherwise I will rule on my tables that bone bows have STR +0 if STR bonus has not been paid for.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 05:58 PM	Assuming you allow the rules lawyer loophole and allow unlimited strength for free the item becomes way to cheap, (especially in the hands of a STR 30+ large size reckless raging barbarian centaur). This suggests either: 1. The more liberal interpretation is wrong and commonsense should prevail and you pay for each strength upgrade. OR 2. The item is priced wrongly and should be removed from LG or the price corrected. My vote is for option 1. Unless the circle rule otherwise I will rule on my tables that bone bows have STR +0 if STR bonus has not been paid for. So you are then saying it's impossible to get your STR bonus to damage, because there are no rules presented for purchasing strength ratings with the weapon...Think about it as far as game balance goes, assuming the unlimited str bonus scenario: A character currently has 14 STR, and wants to be able to apply that to his bow damage. He can either purchase a Masterwork Composite +2 Longbow for 600gp, or Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency and by a masterwork Bone Bow for 550gp. Now, suppose this character gains 10 levels, heavily invests in his weapon of choice, but also has increased his STR to 24. The character with the longbow would have to sell it and purchase a new one with a +7 STR rating, for 1100gp, while the one who spent the feat on the bone bow can still fully benefit without needing a new weapon. At a glance, it seems the feat saved him 300gp. The apparent savings do increase as strength increases, until you realize how much a feat slot is truly worth, (about 10k according to some WotC sources), and how much you have to invest in strength increases to get the most benefit. For instance, those 30+ STR reckless raging large centaur barbarians aren't going to have what it takes to get into Pious Templar, Occult Slayer, and Knight of the Chalice, while still picking up the typical archer feats, just some of the better options an archer has available to increase both damage and versatility. From this perspective, it's obviously not unbalancing to the game. And it's also the simplest interpretation, not requiring one to do anything beyond spending the feat and 250gp, and getting to apply their strength bonus, whatever it may be, to damage. Any attempt to extrapolate a system for paying for specific strength ratings needlessly complicates a very simple weapon.
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-07, 06:12 PM	So you are then saying it's impossible to get your STR bonus to damage, because there are no rules presented for purchasing strength ratings with the weapon... Sure there is - it functions as a Composite Longbow - that's 100 gold/+1. As I noted up above, there's no reason to say Composite Longbow. Just say it adds your Strength bonus to damage.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 06:28 PM	Sure there is - it functions as a Composite Longbow - that's 100 gold/+1. As I noted up above, there's no reason to say Composite Longbow. Just say it adds your Strength bonus to damage. No no no. The COST of a weapon is not a FUNCTION of a weapon. Let's please pay attention to the language we've all agreed upon. With a Composite Longbow, you PAY a COST to OBTAIN a FUNCTION, that FUNCTION being the ability to apply your strength bonus to damage. Using another example, an elvencraft bow (races of the wild) FUNCTIONS as a club when wielded as a melee weapon, but you don't then defer to the rules for a club when pricing it, you use the given price.
solbergb 02-15-07, 06:50 PM	I think it is now obvious that if you don't buy the str at a specific level, what this bow will do is cause arguments. This is enough to make me steer away from it. (my archer is going to buy a normal str +5 bow, a str+6 bow and a str+7 bow. to cover various enhancements he might have...but then he's an arcane archer and he's dangerous without even having to make them masterwork...he can get that coverage for less than gloves of dex+2 would cost)
DuctShuiTengu 02-15-07, 07:48 PM	So you are then saying it's impossible to get your STR bonus to damage, because there are no rules presented for purchasing strength ratings with the weapon... [...] by a masterwork Bone Bow for 550gp. You do realize that the Frostburn book makes even less reference to systems and pricing on masterwork weapons than it does to those for bows designed for high-strength characters, right? So, by your own logic, you can't have a masterwork bone bow.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 08:00 PM	You do realize that the Frostburn book makes even less reference to systems and pricing on masterwork weapons than it does to those for bows designed for high-strength characters, right? So, by your own logic, you can't have a masterwork bone bow. Except the difference is that ALL weapons can be purchased in masterwork versions by core rules, while no such generalization can be made of composite weapons. Only the weapons that specifically say you need to purchase them in a specific variety require you to do so.
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-07, 08:00 PM	No no no. The COST of a weapon is not a FUNCTION of a weapon. Let's please pay attention to the language we've all agreed upon. With a Composite Longbow, you PAY a COST to OBTAIN a FUNCTION, that FUNCTION being the ability to apply your strength bonus to damage. Using another example, an elvencraft bow (races of the wild) FUNCTIONS as a club when wielded as a melee weapon, but you don't then defer to the rules for a club when pricing it, you use the given price. I'm not sure what that has to do with the item at hand. It is not a function of a composite bow to do strength damage equal to your strength. It is a function of a composite bow to do strength damage at max of your strength, provided you pay 100 gold/+1. If they had wanted you to simply get your strength bonus, they could have said, "And unlike other bows, you get to do your strength bonus in extra damage." And actually, you do defer to the rules of a Quarterstaff when pricing out an Elvencraft bow - if you want both ends Masterwork, that's an extra 600 gold.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 08:27 PM	I'm not sure what that has to do with the item at hand. It is not a function of a composite bow to do strength damage equal to your strength. It is a function of a composite bow to do strength damage at max of your strength, provided you pay 100 gold/+1. If they had wanted you to simply get your strength bonus, they could have said, "And unlike other bows, you get to do your strength bonus in extra damage." And actually, you do defer to the rules of a Quarterstaff when pricing out an Elvencraft bow - if you want both ends Masterwork, that's an extra 600 gold. Actually, thats the rules for masterwork weapons, not something specific to the quaterstaff an elvencraft longbow functions as, and the rules for masterwork weapons apply universally. And as far as what my statement you quoted has to do with the item at hand, everything. And if you don't see how, I guess you never will, but I will try to break it down for you. You are making the assumption that a Bone Bow FUNCTIONING as a composite longbow is the same as it being TREATED AS one for rules purposes. If the Bone Bow were TREATED AS a composite longbow with regards to applying the user's strength bonus to damage done with arrows shot from it, then that would indeed seem to imply that you follow the rules for making a composite longbow of a particular rating. But the Bone Bow is NOT TREATED AS a composite longbow, it FUNCTIONS as one. By saying it functions as one, it is very explicitly stating that when you purchase that weapon for 250gp, you get this function. As opposed to saying that you have to pay 250gp, and then some other amount, to get a function. On an interesting side note, the Aquatic Longbow from Stormwrack makes no mention whatsoever of any composite versions or capability. Guess underwater archers are just hosed...
cycloptic_squirrel 02-15-07, 09:40 PM	You are making the assumption that a Bone Bow FUNCTIONING as a composite longbow is the same as it being TREATED AS one for rules purposes. If the Bone Bow were TREATED AS a composite longbow with regards to applying the user's strength bonus to damage done with arrows shot from it, then that would indeed seem to imply that you follow the rules for making a composite longbow of a particular rating. But the Bone Bow is NOT TREATED AS a composite longbow, it FUNCTIONS as one. By saying it functions as one, it is very explicitly stating that when you purchase that weapon for 250gp, you get this function. As opposed to saying that you have to pay 250gp, and then some other amount, to get a function. Except I think you're misconstruing what the function is. A composite longbow allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. You can't separate the second part from the first. Ask any DM if you can add your strength modifier to damage when you shoot your composite longbow, the first thing they'll ask is the bow's strength rating. You can try and claim the ability to upgrade isn't covered in function, but I think it is. If it wasn't, you'd be in trouble: "A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow." (PHB 119) This seems to indicate that adding strength to damage is a feature of a composite longbow made with a high strength rating, whereas a vanilla composite longbow does not have this feature gains no damage from strength.
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-07, 09:45 PM	But the Bone Bow is NOT TREATED AS a composite longbow, it FUNCTIONS as one. By saying it functions as one, it is very explicitly stating that when you purchase that weapon for 250gp, you get this function. As opposed to saying that you have to pay 250gp, and then some other amount, to get a function. Okay, I'll bite. Where does Composite Longbow say it does your strength damage equal to your strength bonus by default? Unless that's a function of Composite Longbow, you don't get it. If they had intended to explicitly say that you do strength damage equal to your strength bonus, they simply could have said "The bone bow does strength damage equal to your strength bonus." Of course, that's something so obvious that rather than address it, you keep trying to determine what they meant by the word 'function' as if they were mathematicians, not game writers using the common English meaning of the word function.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 10:39 PM	I guess there's nothing I can do if you can't see how backwards and stupid it is for the Bone Bow to have to be upgraded like a normal composite longbow for strength bonus. It's unprecedented and completely contrary to the pricing scheme of the shortbow, longbow, and greatbow.
clannagh 02-15-07, 10:48 PM	I guess there's nothing I can do if you can't see how backwards and stupid it is for the Bone Bow to have to be upgraded like a normal composite longbow for strength bonus. It's unprecedented and completely contrary to the pricing scheme of the shortbow, longbow, and greatbow. There is no precedent for any other bow giving you the mighty strength bonus for free. Let assume you forget about EWF .. and most well built archers will forget about EWF .. their "to hit" is high enough without taking the feat. You get a bow for several hundred gold extra that accepts whatever strength you apply to it up to whatever insane strength your character has for the downside of a measly -4 hit penalty ? And furthermore if you use a normal bow of the wrong strength you take a -4 hit penalty anyway ? I have no problems with a bow that does what you say .. but the price of a bow that does that should be more in the order of 10,000 - 20,000 gc NOT a price less than 1000 gc.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-15-07, 11:06 PM	There is no precedent for any other bow giving you the mighty strength bonus for free. Let assume you forget about EWF .. and most well built archers will forget about EWF .. their "to hit" is high enough without taking the feat. You get a bow for several hundred gold extra that accepts whatever strength you apply to it up to whatever insane strength your character has for the downside of a measly -4 hit penalty ? And furthermore if you use a normal bow of the wrong strength you take a -4 hit penalty anyway ? I have no problems with a bow that does what you say .. but the price of a bow that does that should be more in the order of 10,000 - 20,000 gc NOT a price less than 1000 gc. First of all, you only get a -2 for using a composite bow with the wrong strength bonus. Second, without the EWP it takes a full round action to fire.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-15-07, 11:30 PM	Second, without the EWP it takes a full round action to fire. I tought it said you may treat it as a martial weapon, not that you had to. But then what would be the point? The longer I read the entry (Frostburn) the more I think it could've used a little tighter editing.
Mommy was an Orc 02-15-07, 11:58 PM	I guess there's nothing I can do if you can't see how backwards and stupid it is for the Bone Bow to have to be upgraded like a normal composite longbow for strength bonus. It's unprecedented and completely contrary to the pricing scheme of the shortbow, longbow, and greatbow. :rolleyes: Which of those bows give strength bonus for free? If Bone Bow uses the Composite Longbow pricing scheme, it is cheaper than a Greatbow for anyone with a 12 Strength or better.
Alpha_Nerd 02-16-07, 10:34 AM	If you have plenty of +hit as an archer, and no means to get rid of it, spend an extra 700 gold or so and buy a [+12] Mighty Composite Longbow. It lets you accomodate for any kind of STR bonuses you might get, and it lets you focus all your Spending Money on a single weapon instead of spreading it amongst multiple weapons with different strength bonuses.
solbergb 02-16-07, 12:07 PM	Well then you're very sad when it gets sundered. My archer goes for defense in depth on the disarm/sundering thing, but again, as an arcane archer he has more freedom. Each extra bow isn't costing him 2300gp just to get magic arrows. All along he's focused on bow-independent methods of damage (started 18 str, got weapon spec, will get weapon mastery at 9). He'd rather spend 16k to get +2 more damage on any bow (with high enough mod) from a belt of strength than pile another +1d6 on a single bow. For now he's using consumables to boost strength and/or size, so the cheap way is a variety of bows. (he can get all 3 new bows, and sufficient scrolls to work the tactics for the cost of gloves of dex+2, which it appears he'll put off yet again)
Jay_Ibero_911 02-16-07, 12:31 PM	Ok, just got a second reply from customer service, using Mommy was an Orc's question: Subject Is there such a thing as a composite Bone Bow from Frostburn? Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 02/16/2007 08:39 AM Thomas, Bone bows automatically are treated as a composite longbow of the proper strength. Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Zephreum. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (Thomas Stann) 02/15/2007 09:47 AM Ok, that satisfies me, however the person I'm debating this with seems that my previous question failed to present both sides, so let me present the question again, slightly rephrased: Bone bows function as Composite Longbows for Strength bonus damage, but don't list the cost. Composite Longbows don't do extra damage unless they pay 100 gp/bonus. Does this mean one of the following: To make a bone bow do more strength damage, you need to pay the same cost as a Composite Longbow? Bone bows automatically are treated as a composite longbow of the proper strength? I don't think it's possible to get a clearer answer from them...
cycloptic_squirrel 02-16-07, 01:59 PM	Feels wrong. But I can't argue against something like that. Color me corrected.
Mommy was an Orc 02-16-07, 02:24 PM	Feels wrong. But I can't argue against something like that. Color me corrected. Sure you can. Zephreum's notorious for changing his mind. Jay's hearing what he wants to hear, so he's not being aggressive about questioning him. Again, the big problem is that there is no reason whatsoever to say it functions like a composite longbow to get across the idea that it simply adds strength bonus to damage. It makes zero sense. The question I gave him was the initial question he should have asked, not the followup. The followup is 'Why did they not just say 'adds strength bonus to damage instead of referring to Composite Longbow?' And as Jay isn't asking him stuff like that, there's really no reason to take Zephreum at his word.
jstorrie 02-16-07, 02:27 PM	If you have plenty of +hit as an archer, and no means to get rid of it, spend an extra 700 gold or so and buy a [+12] Mighty Composite Longbow. It lets you accomodate for any kind of STR bonuses you might get, and it lets you focus all your Spending Money on a single weapon instead of spreading it amongst multiple weapons with different strength bonuses. Um, no. If you use a mighty composite longbow that you don't have the strength for, you take a very severe to-hit penalty. This is a bad idea.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-16-07, 02:30 PM	Um, no. If you use a mighty composite longbow that you don't have the strength for, you take a very severe to-hit penalty. This is a bad idea. -2 is very severe? I'm probably not looking in the right place. Help? Oh, I still disagree with the bone bow thing, but the way I'd run it at a table is now changed.
Alpha_Nerd 02-16-07, 02:43 PM	Um, no. If you use a mighty composite longbow that you don't have the strength for, you take a very severe to-hit penalty. This is a bad idea. I double-checked and the penalty is -2 no matter how far apart you are from the Maximum bonus. This is a build I was working on that would use it very effectively. High Elf Sorcerer 1/Fighter 4/Dragon Disciple 4/Arcane Archer 3/Wildrunner 3 STR 14 DEX 17 CON 12 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 12 1 Sorcerer: Point Blank Shot. Spells Known: Arrow Mind, Guided Shot 2 Fighter: Precise Shot 3 Fighter: Weapon Focus: Longbow, Rapid Shot 4 Fighter: DEX +1 5 Fighter: Weapon Specialization 6 Dragon Disciple: Endurance 7 Dragon Disciple 8 Dragon Disciple: STR +1 9 Dragon Disciple: Woodland Archer 10 Arcane Archer 11 Arcane Archer 12 Arcane Archer: Ranged Weapon Mastery, STR +1 13 Wildrunner 14 Wildrunner 15 Wildrunner: Improved Rapid Shot This guy's strength changes a lot over his career. +4 From Dragon Disciple, +2 from inherent bonuses, +2-6 from Magic Items, and +2 from Primal Scream. This bring his highest possible strength to 28 before outside intervention. Now, if I went ahead and changed bows every time my Strength went up to make sure I don't take the -2 penalty, I'd be wasting a lot of gold and possibly enchantment access. However, if I spend 1600 gold on a [+12] Mighty Composite Longbow I'll most likely end up saving more money in the long run. Also, this gives me some leeway incase I ever get any non-enhancement bonuses to my Strength, like if I get Enlarged.
LachlarlanIII 02-16-07, 02:47 PM	-2 is very severe? I'm probably not looking in the right place. Help? You take a -2 penalty for each Str bonus you don't meet. If you have a 12 Str (+1 bonus) and use a +4 Str Bow, you take a -6 penalty on attack rolls.
Alpha_Nerd 02-16-07, 02:51 PM	You take a -2 penalty for each Str bonus you don't meet. If you have a 12 Str (+1 bonus) and use a +4 Str Bow, you take a -6 penalty on attack rolls. Composite Longbow Description from PHB: "You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can’t effectively use it, so you take a -2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. " I don't see where you're seeing that.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-16-07, 02:53 PM	I seem to recall something like -2 per point below. Might be a 3.0 rule?
LachlarlanIII 02-16-07, 03:10 PM	I must have been recalling 3.0 where that rule was in place. Thought it was carried into 3.5. My mistake.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-16-07, 03:52 PM	Sure you can. Zephreum's notorious for changing his mind. Jay's hearing what he wants to hear, so he's not being aggressive about questioning him. Again, the big problem is that there is no reason whatsoever to say it functions like a composite longbow to get across the idea that it simply adds strength bonus to damage. It makes zero sense. The question I gave him was the initial question he should have asked, not the followup. The followup is 'Why did they not just say 'adds strength bonus to damage instead of referring to Composite Longbow?' And as Jay isn't asking him stuff like that, there's really no reason to take Zephreum at his word. Dude, it was YOUR question I presented. Does it matter whether it was the initial question or the follow up? Why don't you tell me EXACTLY what question should be asked to get an answer that, no matter what the reply, satisfies you? As for your suggested followup question, what does it matter WHY? The only thing that matters is the intent behind the weapon, which is clear from BOTH responses that you just apply whatever strength bonus you have to damage. Which gives players a choice: Take the exotic weapon proficiency and save a relatively small amount of gold, or buy the longbow appropriate to your strength and save a feat. And it's not practical to try to use it without proficiency, because you take a -4 penalty to hit and it takes a full round action to use. The Full round action clause is there to prevent the abuse of archers using it without proficiency.
cycloptic_squirrel 02-16-07, 04:07 PM	You have me about the strength, but the full round action bit? It read more as an option to me, the key phrase being ' he may use it as a martial weapon'. You're take on it makes sense and I like it, but the wording indicates otherwise.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-16-07, 04:13 PM	You have me about the strength, but the full round action bit? It read more as an option to me, the key phrase being ' he may use it as a martial weapon'. You're take on it makes sense and I like it, but the wording indicates otherwise. Well, if you don't have exotic weapon proficiency, then you can't use it as an exotic weapon, so using it as a martial weapon is the only option....
Mommy was an Orc 02-16-07, 04:16 PM	Dude, it was YOUR question I presented. Does it matter whether it was the initial question or the follow up? Of course it does. When you give someone at CustServ both of the arguments in the beginning, they make better judgments. They realize you put thought into it, so they put thought into it. Then when they answer the question, you ask for clarification on things they may have missed - such as why mention Composite Longbow in the first place as their decision makes it irrelevant. Your argument about the feat's pricing is hilarious - Why does a Greatbow do exactly the same damage, except it has to pay 200 gold/+1 to damage?
Jay_Ibero_911 02-16-07, 04:21 PM	Of course it does. When you give someone at CustServ both of the arguments in the beginning, they make better judgments. They realize you put thought into it, so they put thought into it. Then when they answer the question, you ask for clarification on things they may have missed - such as why mention Composite Longbow in the first place as their decision makes it irrelevant. Your argument about the feat's pricing is hilarious - Why does a Greatbow do exactly the same damage, except it has to pay 200 gold/+1 to damage? Well the greatbow has a lower base price, and also, even without proficiency you can still full attack with a greatbow, which you cannot do with a bone bow without proficiency. Also, if you aren't going to present a question that would satisfy you with regards to customer service, then I don't see the point in arguing any more, since you obviously won't be satisfied until you get the answer you want.
Mommy was an Orc 02-16-07, 04:57 PM	Well the greatbow has a lower base price, and also, even without proficiency you can still full attack with a greatbow, which you cannot do with a bone bow without proficiency. Also, if you aren't going to present a question that would satisfy you with regards to customer service, then I don't see the point in arguing any more, since you obviously won't be satisfied until you get the answer you want. I've presented you with the same question 15 or so times. You've yet to answer it or present it to CustServ. aka 'why didn't they just say 'add strength bonus to damage' rather than be unclear with their statement about Composite Longbow. There's no reason for Composite Longbow to be in there if you're right. So why does CustServ think they made it unclear rather than straightforward? That won't change my mind if they answered in your direction. I'd still rule the same way as a judge. But I'd at least consider your position not ridiculous. As in, at the moment, as a player, I'd tell a DM at a table that what you're doing is illegal. As the DM is probably choking on how much damage you just did, that's not something you want to happen. If CustServ answered that with some sort of explanation that made sense, then I wouldn't do that.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-16-07, 05:27 PM	I've presented you with the same question 15 or so times. You've yet to answer it or present it to CustServ. aka 'why didn't they just say 'add strength bonus to damage' rather than be unclear with their statement about Composite Longbow. There's no reason for Composite Longbow to be in there if you're right. So why does CustServ think they made it unclear rather than straightforward? That won't change my mind if they answered in your direction. I'd still rule the same way as a judge. But I'd at least consider your position not ridiculous. As in, at the moment, as a player, I'd tell a DM at a table that what you're doing is illegal. As the DM is probably choking on how much damage you just did, that's not something you want to happen. If CustServ answered that with some sort of explanation that made sense, then I wouldn't do that. You keep operating under the assumption that there is a way for PC's to use this to do insane damage. There isn't. At least no more than a more traditional archer does using all the abilities and feats they aren't devoting to maxing out their strength in order to make the bone bow worth the feat. The bone bow can only truly be abused by NPC's optimized for it by authors. And even then, if their strength is high enough to make the bone bow worth it, they are probably better off just doing melee combat anyway...And you seem to think there IS a reason that they didn't word it some other way. Could it just be "Well, it made sense to us at the time..." and it's not like customer service has access to the authors or any way of determining their intentions anyway...Maybe they just referenced the composite longbow because it is the most common archer weapon, and therefore a good example of a weapon that allows you to add your strength bonus to damage. You are overanalyzing the rules. And while I don't think there is even an answer to be had, I'll humor you and submit your completely irrelevant and probably unanswerable question to customer service again. At this point you are only arguing because you don't like it, and you probably don't like it only because you haven't really thought about how it would work out in game. Personally, I don't think the weapon is worth the feat, especially when you can already buy any strength rating of composite longbow. There is also the fact that to use the Bone Bow, you need to brace against either the ground or cieling, making it useless while mounted, flying, or swimming. [Edit] Got the response from Customer Service: Subject Is there such a thing as a composite Bone Bow from Frostburn? Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 02/16/2007 02:48 PM Thomas, We can only help clarify existing rules, but unfortunately we cannot help you deconstruct the specific rules or entries as they are printed, nor can we offer explanations for why the rules were created in specific ways. Yes, bracing the bow against a solid object is a requirement for firing the weapon. Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Zephreum. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (Thomas Stann) 02/16/2007 02:25 PM Thanks for the response. Based on that however, why did they bother specifically referencing the composite longbow at all? Couldn't they have simply stated that "A bone bow allows the user to add their strength bonus to damage, as if it was a composite bow of the appropriate strength rating." On another note the text also states "The bow has a long, thick spike protruding from both ends; this spike is used to brace against a solid object(either the ground or an overhanging protrusion or cieling) to aid in pulling the bow's string." Is bracing the weapon a requirement for it's use? If so would this prevent a character from using it while mounted, flying, or in any other situation where they could not brace it?
Mommy was an Orc 02-16-07, 06:39 PM	There is also the fact that to use the Bone Bow, you need to brace against either the ground or cieling, making it useless while mounted, flying, or swimming. You do realize there's no actual requirement to brace your weapon - "The bow has a long, thick spike protruding from both ends; this spike is used to brace against a solid object (either the ground or an overhanging protrusion or ceiling) to aid in pulling the bow's string." Show me where it says you must brace it or you can't fire it. Insane Damage: Wood Elf with Barbarian 1/Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Pious Templar 4/Wildrunner 2 with the following feats: Rapid Shot, Extra Rage, Reckless Rage, Ranged Weapon Master, WF: Longbow, WS: Longbow, EWP: Bone Bow, CWI, True Believer, Endurance, Woodland Archer, Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot. It might be one feat over at which point just get rid of Reckless Rage. Str 19, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 10 - at 12th level, that means he has a Str of 36(19+3 levels+6 belt+6 Rage+2 Frenzy). He fires 5 arrows(haste) a round for 1d10+13+5+3d6 or so damage. That's an average of 34 hp of damage per shot for average damage of 170 hp a round from anywhere on the battlefield. Sure, he might miss with a fullBAB, +3 to hit from feats, +8 or so from Dex, but then he gets another +4 to hit for the rest of them that round. Now yes, most of this is perfectly legal with a regular Composite Longbow - but at the point in time where a character is doing nearly 15*APL damage, that's when people start asking to see what's happening on your character sheet. And at that point, that's not when a lot of DMs are going to want to see no strength plus by your bow.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-16-07, 07:17 PM	You do realize there's no actual requirement to brace your weapon - "The bow has a long, thick spike protruding from both ends; this spike is used to brace against a solid object (either the ground or an overhanging protrusion or ceiling) to aid in pulling the bow's string." Show me where it says you must brace it or you can't fire it. Insane Damage: Wood Elf with Barbarian 1/Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Pious Templar 4/Wildrunner 2 with the following feats: Rapid Shot, Extra Rage, Reckless Rage, Ranged Weapon Master, WF: Longbow, WS: Longbow, EWP: Bone Bow, CWI, True Believer, Endurance, Woodland Archer, Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot. It might be one feat over at which point just get rid of Reckless Rage. Str 19, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 10 - at 12th level, that means he has a Str of 36(19+3 levels+6 belt+6 Rage+2 Frenzy). He fires 5 arrows(haste) a round for 1d10+13+5+3d6 or so damage. That's an average of 34 hp of damage per shot for average damage of 170 hp a round from anywhere on the battlefield. Sure, he might miss with a fullBAB, +3 to hit from feats, +8 or so from Dex, but then he gets another +4 to hit for the rest of them that round. Now yes, most of this is perfectly legal with a regular Composite Longbow - but at the point in time where a character is doing nearly 15*APL damage, that's when people start asking to see what's happening on your character sheet. And at that point, that's not when a lot of DMs are going to want to see no strength plus by your bow. You must really be a fan of incredibly redundant systems, and obviously are incapable of understanding the spirit of the rules. If you had things your way, there is no reason for the bone bow to exist, as it would then be no different than a greatbow with a minor difference in pricing. Whereas when you look at it my way, it is actually a completely unique weapon with both benefits and drawbacks. If you want to deny that weapon needs to be braced to be used, then why is that even in there? The text states that the spike IS used to brace, not CAN BE. Saying it IS used means that it is a requirement for properly using the weapon. Saying it CAN BE braced would mean that it does not have to be. And again, customer service agrees with me. With regard to the build you proposed, it's funny, but it would be impossible if not for the new retraining options. With the new retraining options you can pull off the skill requirements. However you are about 3 feats over there. No room for reckless rage, woodland archer, or CWI. Also, won't have manyshot, and would require dex gloves for Improved Precise Shot.
Mommy was an Orc 02-16-07, 08:14 PM	You must really be a fan of incredibly redundant systems, and obviously are incapable of understanding the spirit of the rules. If you had things your way, there is no reason for the bone bow to exist, as it would then be no different than a greatbow with a minor difference in pricing. :rolleyes: When you finally get a chance to look over most exotic weapons, and realize that most of them are redundant versions of a martial weapon that do an extra +1 of damage, let me know...
Jay_Ibero_911 02-16-07, 08:27 PM	:rolleyes: When you finally get a chance to look over most exotic weapons, and realize that most of them are redundant versions of a martial weapon that do an extra +1 of damage, let me know... Lets see, well there are all the exotic double weapons right out of PHB, as well as the whip, and the repeating crossbows, as well as all the special monk weapons. The only PHB exotic weapons that are just a +1 to damage are the bastard sword and the dwarven waraxe. The fact is that the majority of exotic weapons tend to both do more damage AND have some special ability.
solbergb 02-16-07, 08:54 PM	The double weapons are ways to do TWF that does +1 over having two light weapons, such as shortsword or hand axe. They do d8/d8, your usual option does d6/d6. They also give a minor side benefit of being power attack friendly on a single attack, where normal TWF is not.
pedr 02-21-07, 05:23 PM	Thought I'd try custhelp myself (I hadn't noticed you'd been talking to them). Here's my question and the reply: Subject Bone Bow Discussion Thread Response (Sam S.) 02/21/2007 02:13 PM Hi there Peter, The bone bow is going to have a base composite rating of +0. For every 100gp extra you spend, the composite Strength rating will increase by +1 just like a normal composite longbow. Take Care and Good Gaming! :) We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Sam Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (Peter Griffith) 02/21/2007 09:09 AM The Bone bow from Frostburn 'functions as a composite longbow with regard to adding the user's strength bonus...' Does this mean that it the 250gp version will allow you to add any strength bonus (so an 18 strength medium character would do 1d10+4 damage with it) or do you have to buy a particular strength of bone bow, as for a composite longbow? If the latter, how much does each +1 strength bonus cost? 100gp, as longbow, or 250gp?
Jay_Ibero_911 02-21-07, 05:42 PM	Thought I'd try custhelp myself (I hadn't noticed you'd been talking to them). Here's my question and the reply: Yeah...love the consistency....oh well....in the end, guess it comes down to expect table variation. Even if it works the way I interpret it, it only saves maybe 1000gp...at the expense of a precious feat slot...
ShinAkuma2 02-21-07, 06:15 PM	*is about to respond* *reads third CustServ reply* *slams head on desk* Never mind, then.
pedr 02-21-07, 06:31 PM	I've updated my question pointing out the inconsistency between 'Sam' and 'Zeph...'s answers and asking for clarification! I've also posted to 'Ask Wizards' so maybe we'll get an answer from the Sage.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-21-07, 06:33 PM	Hmm, just got an unexpected response from customer service myself: Subject Is there such a thing as a composite Bone Bow from Frostburn? Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 02/21/2007 03:16 PM Thomas, Heya, I was talking with some folks in R&D and found that I interpreted the ruling wrong on the Bone Bow. It actually starts at 250gp and you must pay the same costs as a Composite Longbow to do Str Damage. Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Zephreum. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Guess that pretty much settles that as far as how it's supposed to work. I still maintain that based on how it's worded in Frostburn it makes more sense for it to work as my original interpretation, but given that the intent is clearly contrary to that, I wouldn't try to enforce my opinion...
pedr 02-21-07, 06:35 PM	Heh, some follow up: Response (Sam S.) 02/21/2007 03:32 PM Hi there Peter, The entry in the book is not as clear as it could have been, and Zephreum made a ruling based on how it could be read. Since then, the rules team determined how it works officially. We have learned that the answer I provided is the correct answer. Take Care and Good Gaming! :) We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Sam Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (Peter Griffith) 02/21/2007 02:26 PM Thank you for that answer. However, it appears to contradict an answer given by 'Zephruem' on 2/16, copied into a thread on the WotC discussion boards here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11506993&postcount=52 He is quoted as saying: Subject Is there such a thing as a composite Bone Bow from Frostburn? Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent) 02/16/2007 08:39 AM Thomas, Bone bows automatically are treated as a composite longbow of the proper strength. Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Zephreum. Customer Service Representative Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST Customer (Thomas Stann) 02/15/2007 09:47 AM Ok, that satisfies me, however the person I'm debating this with seems that my previous question failed to present both sides, so let me present the question again, slightly rephrased: Bone bows function as Composite Longbows for Strength bonus damage, but don't list the cost. Composite Longbows don't do extra damage unless they pay 100 gp/bonus. Does this mean one of the following: To make a bone bow do more strength damage, you need to pay the same cost as a Composite Longbow? Bone bows automatically are treated as a composite longbow of the proper strength? Which one is correct?! Thanks! It'd be great if Jay could follow up with Zeph what's'is'name and see if he agrees that Sam's reply is the correct one :D Edit: Looks like Zeph added more to his answer too. Nice to see that custhelp are all on the same page, even if I would rather that the answer was different!!
Mommy was an Orc 02-21-07, 08:32 PM	Zephreum's notorious for changing his mind. This is why :)
Gallaway 02-23-07, 02:02 AM	hmm seems like it works how you would rationally expect .. you pay for the strength bonus. personally I would never invest a feat in something that seemed "to good to be true" because you can guarantee it will at some later stage be fixed :)
Jay_Ibero_911 02-23-07, 01:28 PM	hmm seems like it works how you would rationally expect .. you pay for the strength bonus. personally I would never invest a feat in something that seemed "to good to be true" because you can guarantee it will at some later stage be fixed :) But that's just it, it's not too good to be true. The only time you would really benefit from the weapon as I had interpreted it would be at level 2, when you can afford the bone bow, but not a composite longbow. THe savings are negligable...
solbergb 02-23-07, 02:25 PM	But that's just it, it's not too good to be true. The only time you would really benefit from the weapon as I had interpreted it would be at level 2, when you can afford the bone bow, but not a composite longbow. THe savings are negligable... Hm. You may be just suffering from a failure of imagination and I'll assume that you're sincere here. You don't see why in a game with effects like rage, enlarge person, bull strength, ray of enfeeblement, fatigue, exhaustion etc that a bow that kept whatever str mod you happened to have at the moment wouldn't be valuable? Wouldn't indeed be an ability worth spending serious cash on?
Jay_Ibero_911 02-23-07, 03:06 PM	Hm. You may be just suffering from a failure of imagination and I'll assume that you're sincere here. You don't see why in a game with effects like rage, enlarge person, bull strength, ray of enfeeblement, fatigue, exhaustion etc that a bow that kept whatever str mod you happened to have at the moment wouldn't be valuable? Wouldn't indeed be an ability worth spending serious cash on? Certainly not more than 10,000 gp, the approximate value of any given feat. Worst case scenario, assuming one character has spend the cash on a masterwork composite longbow for the maxmimum he can get his str, lets say 32 (+11 mod) costing 1500gp, and the other character capable of the same str spent the feat on the masterwork bone bow for 550gp. Difference saved 950gp. Now lets's say they both get hit with a ray of enfeeblement for -6 str penalty. The one with the composite longbow suffers a measely -2 penalty to attacks on top of doing less damage, whereas the guy with the bone bow is just doing less damage. So basically by spending the feat on the bone bow you would avoid an annoying but inconsequential -2 penalty to attacks under certain circumstances, as well as saving a small ammount of gold? So you have to think then, would you spend a feat slot to do 1 more damage on average, as well as avoid a circumstancial -2 penalty? I'd say it's about on par with weapon specialization, nice, but not great...
Mommy was an Orc 02-23-07, 03:27 PM	Certainly not more than 10,000 gp, the approximate value of any given feat. Worst case scenario, assuming one character has spend the cash on a masterwork composite longbow for the maxmimum he can get his str, lets say 32 (+11 mod) costing 1500gp, and the other character capable of the same str spent the feat on the masterwork bone bow for 550gp. Difference saved 950gp It isn't just about worst case scenario - in a situation where you suddenly go way over your normal strength, the bone bow is doing phenomenal damage where the composite longbow is still doing whatever you normally do. LG makes this much harder, but the bone bow was not written for LG.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-23-07, 03:38 PM	It isn't just about worst case scenario - in a situation where you suddenly go way over your normal strength, the bone bow is doing phenomenal damage where the composite longbow is still doing whatever you normally do. LG makes this much harder, but the bone bow was not written for LG. Yes, but how often, except at very low level, do characters unexpectedly go way over their normal strength? A PC with rage and primal scream is aware they are going to be boosting their strength on a regular basis, and therefore would have an appropriate bow for that strength. A PC might need to buy 3 different strength ratings of bows over their career, one for their initial strength, one for their intermediate strength, and one for their maximum attainable str. I think you are really making my interpretation of the bone bow to be much more than it really is. Look how infinitely much more you get from just craft wondrous item...
Mommy was an Orc 02-23-07, 04:14 PM	Yes, but how often, except at very low level, do characters unexpectedly go way over their normal strength? It depends on what the build is - if the rules set is such that Polymorph is operating on 3.5 rules, pre-errata(which is when Frostburn was written...), it isn't hard to boost Strength even on a tweaked strength build by 10 or more. Sun Giant = 37 Str Still wearing Strength belt = +6 Reckless Rage = +6 49 Strength...
Jay_Ibero_911 02-23-07, 04:31 PM	It depends on what the build is - if the rules set is such that Polymorph is operating on 3.5 rules, pre-errata(which is when Frostburn was written...), it isn't hard to boost Strength even on a tweaked strength build by 10 or more. Sun Giant = 37 Str Still wearing Strength belt = +6 Reckless Rage = +6 49 Strength... Except you are assuming that the character is question didn't expect to be polymorphed, which is unlikely. Polymorph doesn't just happen, it would most likely come from another party member, and therefore could be expected fairly often, making it not unreasonable for a character to have a bow for that circumstance. And if you are going to take this outside of LG, there are many other abilities that are exponentially more powerful outside the confines of this campaign. Right out of your example is polymorph itself. Not to mention the number of spells, feats, templates, races...etc...so it's only natural that outside of the confines of LG that everything experiences a proportional gain in power.
JamesMaissen 02-24-07, 12:20 AM	Hm. You may be just suffering from a failure of imagination and I'll assume that you're sincere here. You don't see why in a game with effects like rage, enlarge person, bull strength, ray of enfeeblement, fatigue, exhaustion etc that a bow that kept whatever str mod you happened to have at the moment wouldn't be valuable? Wouldn't indeed be an ability worth spending serious cash on? Let's think of it the other way around. Let's assume that one purchases a bow at their reasonable max possible strength score and normally takes the -2 to hit as a matter of course. Now for a feat and a tactical negative (needing to brace against the ground) how does this compare to a -2 to hit? To me it seems about in line (though many EWP feats are underpowered at +1 average damage) for a full feat. Likewise the way I read upgrades you are likely to see a +1 holy comp longbow, but I find it doubtful that you will see the bone bow counterpart anytime soon. A smaller negative, but still something to consider. In the end I think it will have a stronger negative reaction than it really merits. Mind you that's a factor to consider as well as despite some of our wishes this is still a social game. The problem with trying to decide what was intended is that wth multiple authors using different wordings the text doesn't lend itself to such exacting wording as we would like to ascribe to it. Silly authors tend to write the books like rules for a game rather than like laws, James
solbergb 02-25-07, 03:52 PM	Now for a feat and a tactical negative (needing to brace against the ground) how does this compare to a -2 to hit? To me it seems about in line (though many EWP feats are underpowered at +1 average damage) for a full feat. A -2 to hit generally takes two feats to repair. The most obvious being multishot/improved rapid shot. weapon focus only gives +1. Neither of these increase damage (although the four feat combination of weapon focus/spec/mastery/greatter weapon focus gives +4 hit/+4 damage, so that's a net of +1/+1 to-hit/damage per feat)
JamesMaissen 02-26-07, 02:54 AM	A -2 to hit generally takes two feats to repair. The most obvious being multishot/improved rapid shot. weapon focus only gives +1. Neither of these increase damage (although the four feat combination of weapon focus/spec/mastery/greatter weapon focus gives +4 hit/+4 damage, so that's a net of +1/+1 to-hit/damage per feat) Yes feat return does vary. Manyshot, although I'm not a fan does give it's intended benefit beyond being a gateway to improved rapid shot. Feats vary from granting just +1 to hit to as much as +2 to hit/ +2 to damage. Throwing another feat at the begining of that list is going to delay one of the later, nicer archery benefit feats. But I grant you that a +2 to hit and +1 to damage is on the very high side for a feat. It makes the EWP a decent archer feat, but not grossly broken. -James