Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Golorious 03-28-07, 05:04 PM	Harpoon: The harpoon is a broad-bladed spear forged with barbs. The shaft of the harpoon has a trailing rope attached, to control harpooned opponents. Though designed for hunting whales and other large sea creatures, the harpoon can be used on dry land. If it deals damage, the harpoon lodges in an opponent who fails a Reflex saving throw (DC 10 + the damage dealt). A harpooned creature moves at only half speed and cannot charge or run. If you control the trailing rope by succeeding on an opposed Strength check while holding it, the harpooned creature can move only within the limits that the rope allows (the trailing rope is 30 feet long). If the harpooned creature attempts to cast a spell, it must succeed on a DC 15 Concentration check or lose the spell. The harpooned creature can pull the harpoon from its wound if it has two free hands and takes a full-round action to do so, but it deals damage to itself equal to the initial damage the harpoon dealt. A character who succeeds on a DC 15 Heal check can remove a harpoon without further damage.
Golorious 03-28-07, 05:10 PM	oops left out the second part of my original post. Okay So the Idea is bassically a former sailor type of guy who has decided to leave the sea to go adventuring. harpoons have been a local topic of conversation for some funny reasons and I thought hmmm maybe that could be a fun build. Also considering Nets... just for fun. I was thinking something along the lines of the following Human Fighter 1 Exotic weapon prof (harpoon), Brutal Throw, Point Blank Fighter 2 Percise Shot Fighter 3 Weapon Focus Harpoon Fighter 4 Power attack Fighter 5 Master Thrower (quick draw bonus feat) Power Throw, Dead eye Shot Master Thrower 2 Evasion That is as far as I got but I would like to hear any suggestions for improvements or stat arrays. I would like to have a semi-decent will save if possible but that isn't always possible.
LachlarlanIII 03-28-07, 05:17 PM	Consider taking Rapid Shot and Far Shot as well. Being able to throw a Harpoon 60 ft. instead of 30 ft. and doing it an extra time each round is good. Just make sure to only enchant the Harpoon you intend to use as your melee weapon when your opponent gets too close. Enchanting multiple Harpoons will get expensive very fast. With Power Throw you should be able to get through most types of DR.
LachlarlanIII 03-28-07, 05:45 PM	Human Ex-Sailor Harpooneer Str 16, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8 1: Ranger 1 - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, *Track 2: Ranger 2 - *Rapid Shot 3: Fighter 1 - Power Attack, *Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Harpoon) 4: Fighter 2 - *Weapon Focus (Harpoon), Str 17 5: Fighter 3 6: Fighter 4 - Brutal Throw, *Weapon Specialization (Harpoon) 7: Master Thrower 1 - *Quick Draw 8: Master Thrower 2 - Str 18 9: Master Thrower 3 - Power Throw 10: Fighter 5 11: Fighter 6 - *Ranged/Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing) 12: Fighter 7 - Far Shot, Con 16 13: Fighter 8 - *Greater Weapon Focus (Harpoon) 14: Fighter 9 15: Fighter 10 - Feat, *Feat Master Thrower Tricks - Two With One Blow, Trip Shot I chose Ranger for flavor, and took Aquatic Humanoids as the favored enemy.
Golorious 03-28-07, 06:44 PM	Yes the magic weapon issue could become a large problem. If only there was an Arcane thrower class... whee! I'll have to worship Clerics and Wizards with Chain greater magic weapon or buy a lot of pearls 3 & 4. Harpoon is only a ranged weapon I think so I would need a different melee weapon. Otherwise everytime I stabed somone in melee I would need to quick draw another weapon because they get stuck. Maybe I'll carry around a great axe to give my d12 some love. Well it is listed as an exotic ranged weapon 1d10 x2 piercing. Far shot is a good call. Rapid shot is cool (I thought it would only work with bows) but I will not be able to use it until I have quickdraw. I also might do favorite enemy Humans... cause many many Pirates are human. So maybe 1: Ranger 1 *Track, *Brutal Throw, Point Blank 2: Fighter 1 *Percise Shot 3: Fighter 2 *Exotic Weapon (harpoon), Weapon Focus Harpoon 4: Fighter 3 5: Fighter 4 *Weapon Specialization Harpoon 6: Master Thrower 1 *Quick Draw, Power Attack (Two with one blow) 7: Ranger 2 *Rapid Shot 8: Master Thrower 2: Evasion 9: Master Thrower 3: Power Throw (Dead eye Shot) 10: Fighter 5 11: Fighter 6 *Ranged weapon mastery (piercing) 12: Fighter 7 Farshot 13: Fighter 8 *Improved Critical 14: Fighter 9 15: Fighter 10 *Power Critical, Greater weapon focus
LachlarlanIII 03-28-07, 06:54 PM	Harpoon is only a ranged weapon I think so I would need a different melee weapon. Otherwise everytime I stabed somone in melee I would need to quick draw another weapon because they get stuck. Maybe I'll carry around a great axe to give my d12 some love. I think Harpoons can be used in melee and that enemies only get impaled if you want them to. Not real sure on that as it's been a while since I read the Harpoon rules. In any case, you could always go with a Buckler/Cutlass combo. That's a very high seas look you know.
Lupo 03-28-07, 07:27 PM	Yes the magic weapon issue could become a large problem. If only there was an Arcane thrower class... whee! I'll have to worship Clerics and Wizards with Chain greater magic weapon or buy a lot of pearls 3 & 4. Harpoon is only a ranged weapon I think so I would need a different melee weapon. Otherwise everytime I stabed somone in melee I would need to quick draw another weapon because they get stuck. Maybe I'll carry around a great axe to give my d12 some love. Well it is listed as an exotic ranged weapon 1d10 x2 piercing. Far shot is a good call. Rapid shot is cool (I thought it would only work with bows) but I will not be able to use it until I have quickdraw. I also might do favorite enemy Humans... cause many many Pirates are human. So maybe 1: Ranger 1 *Track, *Brutal Throw, Point Blank 2: Fighter 1 *Percise Shot 3: Fighter 2 *Exotic Weapon (harpoon), Weapon Focus Harpoon 4: Fighter 3 5: Fighter 4 *Weapon Specialization Harpoon 6: Master Thrower 1 *Quick Draw, Power Attack (Two with one blow) 7: Ranger 2 *Rapid Shot 8: Master Thrower 2: Evasion 9: Master Thrower 3: Power Throw (Dead eye Shot) 10: Fighter 5 11: Fighter 6 *Ranged weapon mastery (piercing) 12: Fighter 7 Farshot 13: Fighter 8 *Improved Critical 14: Fighter 9 15: Fighter 10 *Power Critical, Greater weapon focus far shot and ranged weapon mastery are somehow overlapping at least, the weapon mastery also increase the range increments. ciao martin m. <edit> you have to switch brutal throw and power attack somehow, as power attack is a prerequisite for brutal throw. according to the description, a harpoon cannot be used in melee, it is only listed as a ranged weapon . . . maybe taking a level exotic weapon master (close quarter ranged combat) or dedicating one of your master thrower levels (defensive throw, but this requires ranks in concentration) to the melee use of ranged weapons might help here.
haferka 03-29-07, 02:25 AM	...Harpoon is only a ranged weapon I think so I would need a different melee weapon. Otherwise everytime I stabed somone in melee I would need to quick draw another weapon because they get stuck. Maybe I'll carry around a great axe to give my d12 some love... Harpoons work fine as melee weapons.. but.. dont expect to get more than a single attack.. since there will be a chance of "impaling them" with each and every attack.. At low levels this is VERY advantageous for a full attack action.. Hit. Impale.. move action to pull it out.. = damages target again. Personally.. I like to tie the tow line to my mount. Impale the Big bad guy or his caster behind him.. then use the mounts move action to pull them through my allies threatened area. When I miss, I have a spare move action to pull the weapon back with.. The tactic has plenty of flaws.. but works most of the time... -Someone could sunder the tow line. -The impaled target could stand his ground allowing my mount to pull the harpoon out (they take damage.. but probably less than the extra attacks from my allies). -The tow line could simply break as the target stands his ground... The situation & tactic arent really covered in the rules.. so I like to discuss them with the DM when I sit down at a table...
Lupo 03-29-07, 09:28 AM	Harpoons work fine as melee weapons.. but.. dont expect to get more than a single attack.. since there will be a chance of "impaling them" with each and every attack.. At low levels this is VERY advantageous for a full attack action.. Hit. Impale.. move action to pull it out.. = damages target again. Personally.. I like to tie the tow line to my mount. Impale the Big bad guy or his caster behind him.. then use the mounts move action to pull them through my allies threatened area. When I miss, I have a spare move action to pull the weapon back with.. The tactic has plenty of flaws.. but works most of the time... -Someone could sunder the tow line. -The impaled target could stand his ground allowing my mount to pull the harpoon out (they take damage.. but probably less than the extra attacks from my allies). -The tow line could simply break as the target stands his ground... the problem is that "stormwrack" lists the harpoon as ranged weapon ONLY, nothing about using them in melee, so the best you could expect is a kind DM allowing to use it as a improvised melee weapon with a -4 penalty. pulling out the harpoon is a full round action, so you can't pull it out by running away and holding the line . . . . and it would definitely provoke an AoO if you try to pull it out as a full round action if you are within reach of the harpooned critter. any time you or the harpooned critter is trying to move more than 30-ft apart there is a strength check, and despite real world features, in D&D there is nothing in the rules like fixing the rope to a saddle horn or boat, sorry. again, you might find a kind DM, but that would at least require a standard action and some check for "rope use". and if you loose the strength check, you either lose the rope entirely or you are pulled with or towards the critter. the strength checks and mutually "tug of war" attempts funnily do NOT deal any damage. ciao martin m.
haferka 03-29-07, 10:07 AM	the problem is that "stormwrack" lists the harpoon as ranged weapon ONLY, nothing about using them in melee, so the best you could expect is a kind DM allowing to use it as a improvised melee weapon with a -4 penalty. I got no problem with an extra -4.. I always use the weapon thrown.. my size & halfing bonus to thrown weapons helps offset my non-proficient penalty. pulling out the harpoon is a full round action, so you can't pull it out by running away and holding the line . . . . and it would definitely provoke an AoO if you try to pull it out as a full round action if you are within reach of the harpooned critter. I always tie off my harpoon with a take 20 action at the beginning of the adventure. Mounted combat allows me to Throw my harpoon half way through my mounts double move action. And I still get a move action of my own, Which I typically use to pull the harpoon rope back( when I miss or it fails to stick). any time you or the harpooned critter is trying to move more than 30-ft apart there is a strength check, and despite real world features, in D&D there is nothing in the rules like fixing the rope to a saddle horn or boat, sorry. again, you might find a kind DM, but that would at least require a standard action and some check for "rope use". and if you loose the strength check, you either lose the rope entirely or you are pulled with or towards the critter. the strength checks and mutually "tug of war" attempts funnily do NOT deal any damage. ciao An opposed Bull rush works well for the opposed "dragging" mechanics. Any bull rush attempt where both the attacker & defender exceed the Break DC of the rope simply breaks the rope. This means that I drag the target 5' for every 5 points I exceed his roll for the bull rush... Since the rope is tied to the mount.. I use the mounts strength & stability for the bull rush attempt rather than my own...
Lupo 03-29-07, 11:09 AM	I got no problem with an extra -4.. I always use the weapon thrown.. my size & halfing bonus to thrown weapons helps offset my non-proficient penalty. I always tie off my harpoon with a take 20 action at the beginning of the adventure. Mounted combat allows me to Throw my harpoon half way through my mounts double move action. And I still get a move action of my own, Which I typically use to pull the harpoon rope back( when I miss or it fails to stick). An opposed Bull rush works well for the opposed "dragging" mechanics. Any bull rush attempt where both the attacker & defender exceed the Break DC of the rope simply breaks the rope. This means that I drag the target 5' for every 5 points I exceed his roll for the bull rush... Since the rope is tied to the mount.. I use the mounts strength & stability for the bull rush attempt rather than my own... you are at your DMs discretion whether he allows you to use your mounts stats instead of your own, and even IF he follows your idea . . . . you don't have enough ranger levels to get an animal companion, so every time you want your mount to do the "stop and be steady" trick against the pull of the harpoon line would need a handle animal check DC 25 (non standard trick) as a move action . . . . even with another level of ranger it still would be a DC 25 handle animal as a free action, it is another cheesy use of the not-so-perfect mounted combat rules, and as usual with cheese, not all people like it's flavor ;) ciao martin m.
evilaustintom 03-29-07, 05:09 PM	I always tie off my harpoon with a take 20 action at the beginning of the adventure. Are you taking 20 with a Rope Use check? That is technically a contested skill check - so you can't take 20 on it. Tom Thowe
haferka 03-29-07, 05:25 PM	Are you taking 20 with a Rope Use check? That is technically a contested skill check - so you can't take 20 on it. Tom Thowe well, then.. I take 10.. use rope has so far not been an issue when i sit down at a table... (I only have 1 rank).
Golorious 03-29-07, 09:57 PM	Don't confuse the build with the person that uses the harpoon in the mounted fasion. I have no idea how that works and that was not what this thread was about. This is about a Harpoon thrower, melee will be a melee weapon. Is this a viable build and will it be effective past 6th level? When creatures start getting DR more consistantly and magic weapons seem to be super important. Are there suggestion that would work better? Like a harpoon throwing dwarven defender that reels in his enemies :) (talk about table variations!)
Lupo 03-29-07, 10:43 PM	Don't confuse the build with the person that uses the harpoon in the mounted fasion. I have no idea how that works and that was not what this thread was about. This is about a Harpoon thrower, melee will be a melee weapon. Is this a viable build and will it be effective past 6th level? When creatures start getting DR more consistantly and magic weapons seem to be super important. Are there suggestion that would work better? Like a harpoon throwing dwarven defender that reels in his enemies :) (talk about table variations!) overall, i think the harpoon trick will work enough times to make it worthwhile. the problem is the high feat consumption that make the build somehow an one-trick-pony and mediocre when the trick does NOT work. being medium size will make your chances better when you also can get "enlarged person". a nasty trick would be a unseen servant horde at your command (or the command of the party arcanist) to pull out the harpoon. an ideal build would be: first round: throw harpoon at opposite side's arcanist, and try to pull him closer the next round or order unseen servant horde to bring back your harpoon - without the arcanist. with power throw this can bring down an arcanist nearly with one shot. or use the harpoon to limit the movement of a large nasty critter and make it a sitting duck for your party's ranged damage dealers - including you, and stop it from coming close to fast - funny, but there is no limit on the size of the opponent, ANY critter with a harpoon sticking in it is hindered :). have some javelins for additional ranged attacks for yourself and a shortspear if melee can't be avoided (both would profit from some feats you take for the harpoon as well). in addition carry the standards for any frontliner; morningstar, spiked gauntlets and a longsword, as you have power attack anyway you should be fine ;). ciao martin m.
haferka 03-30-07, 12:28 AM	What about adding some concealed blades to the harpoon.. ..see complete scoundrel.. (I think complete warrior had something similar as well).. This way if you have 1 person harpooned.. you can hit another nearby person with the concealed blade.. Just picture it.. Hit opponent A. (harpooned).. pop the hidden blade(s).. hit opponent B. (adjacent to you and opponent A).. Or.. Use the hidden blade(s) to deliver your iterative attacks? The other benifit to adding hidden blades... Makeing them each magic adds bonus hp to the item.. (thus making it harder for the DM to sunder)... but it costs a pretty penny to add +1 to each hidden blade...
LachlarlanIII 03-30-07, 09:57 AM	One Harpoon = Half Movement. Does two Harpoons = Quarter Movement?
Vanadium 03-30-07, 11:08 AM	One Harpoon = Half Movement. Does two Harpoons = Quarter Movement? Infiinte Monkeys had a thread on this a while back. I think the general ruling was the effect wasn't additive. Thus, half movement regardless of additional harpoons.
Paul H 03-30-07, 12:10 PM	Hi Shame really - this concept screams out STORMLORD in so many ways..... but they only use Javelins or tridents (Osprem/Procan). You'll need some changes re Wis score, though. On a similar nautical vein.... Human Cleric Osprem. Domains: Travel, Windstorm Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 8 1: Cleric 1 - Endurance, Gt Fortitude 2: Cleric 2 3: Cleric 3 - Wpn Focus Trident 4: Cleric 4 Wis 14 5: Cleric 5 6: Fighter 1 - Pwr Attack, Brutal Throw, 7: Stormlord 1 (Resist Electric 5, Enhanced Javelins +1) 8: Stormlord 2 Wis 15 (Shock Wpn - Javelins, Spears & Tridents now 'Shocking') 9: Stormlord 3 - Pwr Throw (Storm Walk) 10: Stormlord 4 (Resist Electric 10) 11: Stormlord 5 - (Spears, Javelins & Tridents now 'Thundering') 12: Stormlord 6 - Wis 16 (Storm Ride, Javelins +2), Feat 13: Stormlord 7 - Resist Eectric 15 14: Stormlord 8 - (Javelins, Spears & Tridents now 'Shocking Burst') 15: Stormlord 9 - (Immune to Electric, Enhanced Javelins +3), Feat For: 1) Good Spellcasting (lose 1 level for Ftr) 2) Free Wpn upgrades (Javelins gain enhancement bonuses, spears & tridents the rest). Alll bonuses stack. 3) Good Domain Powers/Spells 4) Electricity Resistance (later immunity) 5) Reasonable BAB 6) Cleric Spells ahve good buffs 7) Good nautical Gods Against: 1) BAB not as good as your build 2) Trident'a 10' increment sucks 3) Wis score bit low - but you're just using spells for buffing/healing, right? (So improving spell DC's not a problem) Started a similar build myself - though only played one mod so far.... Cheers Paul H
Paul H 03-30-07, 12:11 PM	Hi Shame really - this concept screams out STORMLORD in so many ways..... but they only use Javelins Spears or Tridents (Osprem/Procan). You'll need some changes re Wis score, though. On a similar nautical vein.... Human Cleric Osprem. Domains: Travel, Windstorm Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 8 1: Cleric 1 - Endurance, Gt Fortitude 2: Cleric 2 3: Cleric 3 - Wpn Focus Trident 4: Cleric 4 Wis 14 5: Cleric 5 6: Fighter 1 - Pwr Attack, Brutal Throw, 7: Stormlord 1 (Resist Electric 5, Enhanced Javelins +1) 8: Stormlord 2 Wis 15 (Shock Wpn - Javelins, Spears & Tridents now 'Shocking') 9: Stormlord 3 - Pwr Throw (Storm Walk) 10: Stormlord 4 (Resist Electric 10) 11: Stormlord 5 - (Spears, Javelins & Tridents now 'Thundering') 12: Stormlord 6 - Wis 16 (Storm Ride, Javelins +2), Feat 13: Stormlord 7 - Resist Eectric 15 14: Stormlord 8 - (Javelins, Spears & Tridents now 'Shocking Burst') 15: Stormlord 9 - (Immune to Electric, Enhanced Javelins +3), Feat For: 1) Good Spellcasting (lose 1 level for Ftr) 2) Free Wpn upgrades (Javelins gain enhancement bonuses, spears & tridents the rest). Alll bonuses stack. 3) Good Domain Powers/Spells 4) Electricity Resistance (later immunity) 5) Reasonable BAB 6) Cleric Spells ahve good buffs 7) Good nautical Gods Against: 1) BAB not as good as your build 2) Trident'a 10' increment sucks 3) Wis score bit low - but you're just using spells for buffing/healing, right? (So improving spell DC's not a problem) Started a similar build myself - though only played one mod so far.... Cheers Paul H Edit: Opps - damn the double posting!
KarmaInferno 04-04-07, 06:14 PM	Infiinte Monkeys had a thread on this a while back. I think the general ruling was the effect wasn't additive. Thus, half movement regardless of additional harpoons. However, if you have the harpooners move to opposite sides of the target and maintain max rope range, the target is effectively restricted to one spot. =) -karma