Build a Gish with Hexblade/Warmage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Build a Gish with Hexblade/Warmage? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
JBeauMI
03-09-07, 06:59 PM I keep reading about other gish builds, but I keep thinking about Hexblade/Warmage/Eldritch Knight. OK, I prefer the Hexblade class because it can preload the arcane skills for a Warmage, while providing a d10 HD and martial weapons (and 240 GP for starting GP). From there you can take 6 levels of Warmage of lethal arcane goodness in the best light armor you can afford. (Is a Mithral breastplate really light armor?) Finally, you enter Eldritch Knight to buff your BAB. You have lost 2 caster levels to build Hexblade 1/ Warmage 6/ Eldritch Knight 2.

What is the down side?
Alpha_Nerd
03-09-07, 07:59 PM how are you getting all the proficiencies for eldritch knight?
Jay_Ibero_911
03-09-07, 08:46 PM how are you getting all the proficiencies for eldritch knight?

With Hexblade. Hexblade's are proficient with all martial weapons. Warmage 6 gets you 3rd level spells. THat's all you need for Eldritch Knight....
Alpha_Nerd
03-09-07, 09:16 PM I thought EK requires all armor too, my bad,
bitznarf
03-10-07, 01:32 AM A mithral breastplate is indeed light armour. DMG page 284. And on one of the Races of the Wild table (I think).
Sieylianna
03-10-07, 09:20 AM I thought EK requires all armor too, my bad,

No, you're thinking of Spellsword, which is a common lead in to EK.

Ed
Timlagor
03-10-07, 06:46 PM I'm afraid the downside it that you have managed to build a subiconic character (well close anyway).

Warmages are good for one thing and one thing only: Blasting.

The Commandment that THOU SHALT NOT DROP SPELL LEVELS counts tripple for Warmages.

Warmages also have nothing to help a melee character*.

From the melee side taking Warmage hurts your BAB and HP while restricting your armour options and tempting you to spend build points on Mental Attributes. About the only good thing to be said for it is that it boosts your saves ...well that and you can Arcane Strike some of your spells away which does make up for the BAB.. BUT you are also miles behind on Feats (as well as all those build points in physical Attributes) compared to a normal melee guy and can't get into any of the cool PrCs because that stops your spells completely.

OK once you have a significant number of EK levels your Arcane Strike will begin to make up for everything else a little but you're still weak and it's a shocking waste of potential. If you took Sorceror instead you would have a lot of nice buff and utility spells that you could throw around with an otherwise identical build and still have plenty left over for Arcane Strike.

..you weren't thinking of actually casting any of the Warmage spells were you? (aside from the odd fireball when you aren't in melee range and maybe some Quickened True Strikes once you get Rapid Metamagic and 5th level spells)

Finally, Why Hexblade?
You don't need those skills and Fighter gives you an extra (much needed) Feat while also letting you take Spellsword 1 (or even 3 if you want it). Alternatively you could take Barbarian 1 for more HP, Speed and Rage.
[starting gold is just so completley irrelevant it's not even funny]

* Ok this was a slight exageration (once you take Arcane Strike) but none of the Warmage spells synergise with melee and there's no point at all in sacrificing those Warmage levels if you don't intend to get into melee.
JBeauMI
03-10-07, 09:35 PM While I agree that Warmages are designed for arcane cambat, they could use help on their BAB. If they cannot hit the target, the spell is wasted, right? Warmages have the same poor BAB as wizards and sorcerers, right? Range touch spells are more reliable with a higher BAB. Magic Missle is a great spell, but it is nice to have alternatives. I have no desire to get into melee with this character, but I expect to provide effective ranged support, with the ability to trip or hit/hurt anything that gets too close.

As far as the missing feats . . . I'll guess you are comparing the Hexblade and Fighter classes, rather than the Warmage and Sorcerer classes. Personally, I like having skills. Regarding the starting GP, I'd rather start the game in a chain shirt and a CLW potion than studded leather and no potion. Why not barbarian? Because I don't want to need the Rage Mage feat.

Why is everyone so hung up on Spellswords? They drop half the caster levels, in exchange for armor, which is unnecessary with a Warmage build. A warmage build allows you to skip that PrC and proceed directly to Eldritch Knight. If you want heavy armor that badly, take the Battle Caster feat, and wait until 8th level when the Warmage gets Armored Mage (medium). You write "THOU SHALT NOT DROP SPELL LEVELS", then dump them on the Spellsword class. Make up you mind.

Finally, thanks for the phase "shocking waste of potential"; it cracked me up.
jstorrie
03-10-07, 09:44 PM Warmages make poor gishes because they can't buff themselves, nor do they have many useful tactical spells. If you took Sorceror instead, you could select a suite of spells that worked synergistically with your melee power, like bladeweave, dimenson door, critical strike, false life and such. Taking Warmage you limit your non-blasting to essentially just fire shield, diluting your combat and casting potential for no real return.
JBeauMI
03-10-07, 09:59 PM jstorrie, thank you;
That was an explanation I understood.

On the other hand, Warmages get more spells known than a Sorcerer, and a higher BAB will make them more effective with ranged touch spells like orbs and rays. A Warmage will not replace a wizard/sorcerer, but they can inflict a lot of damage when they can hit their target.
jstorrie
03-10-07, 10:04 PM Warmages with decent dex can already hit their targets with ranged touch spells. Very few creatures have difficult touch ACs, and those are the ones that you fall back on magic missiles or area-of-effect spells for. The Ranged Recall feat can help, too, if you're really worried about missing with rays.
Sieylianna
03-11-07, 01:05 PM Why is everyone so hung up on Spellswords? They drop half the caster levels, in exchange for armor, which is unnecessary with a Warmage build. A warmage build allows you to skip that PrC and proceed directly to Eldritch Knight. If you want heavy armor that badly, take the Battle Caster feat, and wait until 8th level when the Warmage gets Armored Mage (medium). You write "THOU SHALT NOT DROP SPELL LEVELS", then dump them on the Spellsword class. Make up you mind.

Because most builds will only take spellsword 1 and then go into Eldritch Knight. That gives a 10% reduction in arcane spell failure without hurting caster level for spellsword which is enough for a mithral chain shirt.

I have a barbarian/wizard going for eldritch knight who just got access to any mithral armor at half-price. I'm seriously considering retraining to take heavy armor proficiency to replace cleave, so I can take spellsword to reduce the ASF of a mithral breast plate or even mithral full plate.

Ed
Timlagor
03-11-07, 01:12 PM Hitting tagets with ranged touch spells is not a problem. It really isn't. Take a decent dex if you plan to use them and pick up PBS+PS. At higher levels you won't even need the Feats since generally touch ACs will be less than 10.

Feats: I was comparing your build's Feats to those of a Fighter/barb/whatever without any magic.

Spells: I was comparing the Warmage list with the Sorceror list (Wizard is better still of course). Warmages have more spells known but they all do the same thing and it isn't something that you should be doing with a gish. If you don't want to be a Gish then don't even consider dropping spell levels. BAB doesn't even begin to come close to being near to almost compensating.

Spellsword: ONE level is great (no spell loss and nice goodies). Channel spell is arguably good enough to pay for the missing spell levels but I certainly wouldn't go further.

I was stressing the "commandment" for Warmage. Gish builds have to sacrifice some obviously but you don't do that with Warmage.
Jay_Ibero_911
03-11-07, 01:53 PM Also, Warmage is pretty much useless in a gish build. The idea behind an effective gish is using magic to enhance your melee. With a warmage based one, you are stuck either blasting or meleeing, and are worse at both than a straight fighter or a straight warmage. It's ok to want diversity in a character, so long as it doesn't make them less effective at what they are supposed to be able to do well.
JBeauMI
03-11-07, 03:08 PM Thank you all for the information. I was thinking of a ranged blaster/archer who can wear armor and still swing a sword when necessary, which I gather is not a gish. I have no idea what the term is for that template, probably mutt.

I'll have to pick up CM to read up on Unseen Seer and Ranged Recall. It is one of the few books I am missing.

I've only been playing D&D for a couple years in a core-only setting (since my Navy D&D v1 days), and started LG last year because I wanted to try a high-power game with more variety of players. Now I need to find the time to play more often. Anyway, thank you all again for the education.
jstorrie
03-11-07, 08:00 PM An Arcane Archer might be what you're looking for. If you do a two-level dip you can place area spells in an arrow that you fire, as a standard action, which is good for dropping greater fireburst or antimagic field at range. Or you could go full Arcane Archer and be a good ranged attacker with some magical backup.
JBeauMI
03-11-07, 10:53 PM Arcane Archer is roughly what I am envisioning, but using magic far more than arrows. Think Warmage to Elditch Knight: armed and armored, with 2 lost caster levels, and a medium BAB. A supporting range attacker who typically uses magic, but is procifient with weaponry.
jstorrie
03-11-07, 11:50 PM If you take all those Eldritch Knight levels, you lose out on your Warmage bonus feats. You also won't run out of spells as a Warmage. By the time you actually start taking Eldritch Knight levels, you'd never have a reason to use a bow or a sword instead of a spell, short of being caught in an antimagic field.
UMiskatonic
03-12-07, 12:12 PM Ranger/Warmage will work fine.

With Craft Arms/Armor, you could do VERY well.

You're a ranged combat guy, and will use arrows instead of spells when you're out, or when they will work better, or when you're fighting mooks who aren't worth wasting spells on.
JBeauMI
03-12-07, 07:19 PM So a warmage cannot be improved upon within the bounds of the game. That is a very impressive class.

Again, thank you for the education, especailly jstorrie!
Mommy was an Orc
03-12-07, 07:41 PM That's not 100% true. There are some possible things with Unseen Seer. A Scout 1/Warmage 4/Unseen Seer 10 with Arcane Disciple for the 2nd Divination spell can be pretty effective. Sure, you're down a level, but +5d6 Skirmish adds a lot as does being a skill monkey.
JBeauMI
03-12-07, 08:55 PM Forgive for hijacking the thread I started, but (again newby) how do you keep your arcane caster alive for 5-6 levels before hitting Spellsword?
I imagine you sell the armor and shield you bought at level 1, and play wizard, with a sword, bow and guisarme?

Is it any different playing that character than a normal wizard until you hit the first Spellsword level?
tlotig
03-13-07, 10:52 PM So a warmage cannot be improved upon within the bounds of the game. That is a very impressive class.

Again, thank you for the education, especailly jstorrie!

Oh, they can be improved a little, go for one of pure caster PrCs (wild mage, or lvl 1-4 of fate spinner). jstorrie is right about us never running out of spells though. Mind you as i recently found out Warmages dont handle subdual damage well.
Jay_Ibero_911
03-13-07, 10:57 PM Oh, they can be improved a little, go for one of pure caster PrCs (wild mage, or lvl 1-4 of fate spinner). jstorrie is right about us never running out of spells though. Mind you as i recently found out Warmages dont handle subdual damage well.

All they need is non-lethal substitution...good to go.
tlotig
03-13-07, 11:11 PM yeah, but bit short on feats
hoping to get access to Bigby's Striking fist (PHBII)and retrain to it
JBeauMI
03-13-07, 11:35 PM Wow, I came to tinker and got testimonials. Do the Scout and Beguiler classes generally fall into this catagory (too good to mess with)?

P.S. MwaO, what INT are you applying to the Scout/Warmage/Unseen Seer build to get the 8 ranks of Hide, Spot and Search as cross-class skills for a Warmage?
Timlagor
03-14-07, 08:19 PM It's not that the Warmage is too good to mess with, it's that it's too specialised to play well with other classes.

Beguilers go well with pretty much any PrC that offers full spellcasting but go in exactly the opposite direction from Warmages: they have virtually no damage dealing (a very little non-lethal) and only a limitted amount of buffing. It's certainly a much better candidate for a 'Gish' (using Melee and Arcane Strike for the damage) but I'm not sure how well it would work out.
Beguiler looks like a very nice class all by itself.

Scouts are too bad to mess with (well they were). The realy big drawback is the movement requirement which basically kills your all-important full attack. You can work around this in a couple of ways however:
- Dervish (BAB loss and lack of bonus feats hurts though)
- Pounce (pretty much means Wildrunner)
- Scout 1 and then straight Arcanist (pick up skirmish damage on your rays/orbs but you do it primarily for the trapfinding and skills)

The new feats do a lot to make Skirmish worthwhile.
Mommy was an Orc
03-16-07, 11:09 AM P.S. MwaO, what INT are you applying to the Scout/Warmage/Unseen Seer build to get the 8 ranks of Hide, Spot and Search as cross-class skills for a Warmage?

Need a minimum of 4 skill points per level. You start off with 2 ranks in Search, 3 in Spot, and 4 in Hide. At 2nd, you buy 4 ranks in Spellcraft. At 3rd, you retrain Search then cc it. At 4th, you retrain Spot then cc it at 5th. That's where your 4 skill points are necessary at 5th. Finally, you retrain Hide at 5th, which puts it up to 8 ranks.
Paul H
03-18-07, 07:46 PM Hi

I play a Cleric/Warmage/Mystic Theurge.

OK - a support & Spellflinger - not a melee character, but the Warmage does have good spells for combat. It's the Arcane Caster BAB that stops it being too powerful.

1) Fist of Stone. Chill Touch. Shocking Grasp
2) Blades of Fire. Fireburst. Whirling Blade.
3) Fire Shield. Poison. Ring of Blades.
4) OK - couple good 'cone' spells, & contagion takes too long for combat.
5) Fireshield Mass. Fireburst Greater.
6) Tenser's Transformation (Is this still legal)?
7) Mordenkainen' Sword.

The Ranger/Warmage/Eldritch Knight combo looks good. You get your Favoured NME bonus to spell damage. (CA Pg 85).

OK, you're down 2 spell levels, but got extra skill points at 1st lvl, and end up with more HP/BAB.
And don't forget that Tenser's Floating Disk you took at Warmage 3 (Adv. Learning). It helps with movement. (Though no charging).

Did also look at Swashbuckler/Warmage, with Combat Casting/Shielded Caster combo, doing Shocking grasp every round.

For:
Insightful Strike & Warmage Edge stack. (Int damage twice).
Wpn Finesse at 1st level
Good Skill Points
No attacks of opportunity (Shielded Caster)
Good mobility (Tenser's Disk)

Against:
Boring - all you do is Shocking Grasp every round - even if it is 5D6+(Int x2) (Though you could do Ring of Blades/Firesburst at higher levels).
Waiting - best at 6th level, (Warmage 3/Swashbuckler 3), with that Tenser's Disc.

Cheers
Paul H
GrahamWills
03-21-07, 10:59 AM Arcane Archer is roughly what I am envisioning, but using magic far more than arrows. Think Warmage to Elditch Knight: armed and armored, with 2 lost caster levels, and a medium BAB. A supporting range attacker who typically uses magic, but is procifient with weaponry.

A warmage at medium levels can wear mithril full plate, with a light shield. He will already have good dex, so assuming he only has +1 on both, his AC is:

10 + 8 (plate) + 1 (shield) + 2 (bonuses) + 4 (dex) = 25

Even without the mithril plate, it's still 23 with nothing extra. I have a 6 halfling warmage in elven chain +1 that has a 23. I haven't even bothered picking up a ring of protection or the like. If I really cared about AC, he'd swap out his cloak of charisma for dex gloves and his elven boots for +2 armor and +1 ring, giving him a 26 AC.

Why would you want more than that? It's not like a ranged warmage needs much armor anyway. My character took the elven chain mainly because of the weight benefits (I like actually having a positive swim modifier wearing full armor and shield). I doubt I'll ever bother to get out of light armor. I don't really get hit much -- and an armored warmage is not an inviting ranged target for opponents.

If you want to be a ranged blaster, staright warmage is the way to go. But the archer is way cooler and probably more fun!
kenobi65
03-21-07, 11:05 AM And don't forget that Tenser's Floating Disk you took at Warmage 3 (Adv. Learning). It helps with movement. (Though no charging).

As was pointed out in another thread where you posted this same trick, it doesn't work. You can't ride on your own Tenser's.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JBeauMI 03-09-07, 06:59 PM	I keep reading about other gish builds, but I keep thinking about Hexblade/Warmage/Eldritch Knight. OK, I prefer the Hexblade class because it can preload the arcane skills for a Warmage, while providing a d10 HD and martial weapons (and 240 GP for starting GP). From there you can take 6 levels of Warmage of lethal arcane goodness in the best light armor you can afford. (Is a Mithral breastplate really light armor?) Finally, you enter Eldritch Knight to buff your BAB. You have lost 2 caster levels to build Hexblade 1/ Warmage 6/ Eldritch Knight 2. What is the down side?
Alpha_Nerd 03-09-07, 07:59 PM	how are you getting all the proficiencies for eldritch knight?
Jay_Ibero_911 03-09-07, 08:46 PM	how are you getting all the proficiencies for eldritch knight? With Hexblade. Hexblade's are proficient with all martial weapons. Warmage 6 gets you 3rd level spells. THat's all you need for Eldritch Knight....
Alpha_Nerd 03-09-07, 09:16 PM	I thought EK requires all armor too, my bad,
bitznarf 03-10-07, 01:32 AM	A mithral breastplate is indeed light armour. DMG page 284. And on one of the Races of the Wild table (I think).
Sieylianna 03-10-07, 09:20 AM	I thought EK requires all armor too, my bad, No, you're thinking of Spellsword, which is a common lead in to EK. Ed
Timlagor 03-10-07, 06:46 PM	I'm afraid the downside it that you have managed to build a subiconic character (well close anyway). Warmages are good for one thing and one thing only: Blasting. The Commandment that THOU SHALT NOT DROP SPELL LEVELS counts tripple for Warmages. Warmages also have nothing to help a melee character. From the melee side taking Warmage hurts your BAB and HP while restricting your armour options and tempting you to spend build points on Mental Attributes. About the only good thing to be said for it is that it boosts your saves ...well that and you can Arcane Strike some of your spells away which does make up for the BAB.. BUT you are also miles behind on Feats (as well as all those build points in physical Attributes) compared to a normal melee guy and can't get into any of the cool PrCs because that stops your spells completely. OK once you have a significant number of EK levels your Arcane Strike will begin to make up for everything else a little but you're still weak and it's a shocking waste of potential. If you took Sorceror instead you would have a lot of nice buff and utility spells that you could throw around with an otherwise identical build and still have plenty left over for Arcane Strike. ..you weren't thinking of actually casting any of the Warmage spells were you? (aside from the odd fireball when you aren't in melee range and maybe some Quickened True Strikes once you get Rapid Metamagic and 5th level spells) Finally, Why Hexblade? You don't need those skills and Fighter gives you an extra (much needed) Feat while also letting you take Spellsword 1 (or even 3 if you want it). Alternatively you could take Barbarian 1 for more HP, Speed and Rage. [starting gold is just so completley irrelevant it's not even funny] Ok this was a slight exageration (once you take Arcane Strike) but none of the Warmage spells synergise with melee and there's no point at all in sacrificing those Warmage levels if you don't intend to get into melee.
JBeauMI 03-10-07, 09:35 PM	While I agree that Warmages are designed for arcane cambat, they could use help on their BAB. If they cannot hit the target, the spell is wasted, right? Warmages have the same poor BAB as wizards and sorcerers, right? Range touch spells are more reliable with a higher BAB. Magic Missle is a great spell, but it is nice to have alternatives. I have no desire to get into melee with this character, but I expect to provide effective ranged support, with the ability to trip or hit/hurt anything that gets too close. As far as the missing feats . . . I'll guess you are comparing the Hexblade and Fighter classes, rather than the Warmage and Sorcerer classes. Personally, I like having skills. Regarding the starting GP, I'd rather start the game in a chain shirt and a CLW potion than studded leather and no potion. Why not barbarian? Because I don't want to need the Rage Mage feat. Why is everyone so hung up on Spellswords? They drop half the caster levels, in exchange for armor, which is unnecessary with a Warmage build. A warmage build allows you to skip that PrC and proceed directly to Eldritch Knight. If you want heavy armor that badly, take the Battle Caster feat, and wait until 8th level when the Warmage gets Armored Mage (medium). You write "THOU SHALT NOT DROP SPELL LEVELS", then dump them on the Spellsword class. Make up you mind. Finally, thanks for the phase "shocking waste of potential"; it cracked me up.
jstorrie 03-10-07, 09:44 PM	Warmages make poor gishes because they can't buff themselves, nor do they have many useful tactical spells. If you took Sorceror instead, you could select a suite of spells that worked synergistically with your melee power, like bladeweave, dimenson door, critical strike, false life and such. Taking Warmage you limit your non-blasting to essentially just fire shield, diluting your combat and casting potential for no real return.
JBeauMI 03-10-07, 09:59 PM	jstorrie, thank you; That was an explanation I understood. On the other hand, Warmages get more spells known than a Sorcerer, and a higher BAB will make them more effective with ranged touch spells like orbs and rays. A Warmage will not replace a wizard/sorcerer, but they can inflict a lot of damage when they can hit their target.
jstorrie 03-10-07, 10:04 PM	Warmages with decent dex can already hit their targets with ranged touch spells. Very few creatures have difficult touch ACs, and those are the ones that you fall back on magic missiles or area-of-effect spells for. The Ranged Recall feat can help, too, if you're really worried about missing with rays.
Sieylianna 03-11-07, 01:05 PM	Why is everyone so hung up on Spellswords? They drop half the caster levels, in exchange for armor, which is unnecessary with a Warmage build. A warmage build allows you to skip that PrC and proceed directly to Eldritch Knight. If you want heavy armor that badly, take the Battle Caster feat, and wait until 8th level when the Warmage gets Armored Mage (medium). You write "THOU SHALT NOT DROP SPELL LEVELS", then dump them on the Spellsword class. Make up you mind. Because most builds will only take spellsword 1 and then go into Eldritch Knight. That gives a 10% reduction in arcane spell failure without hurting caster level for spellsword which is enough for a mithral chain shirt. I have a barbarian/wizard going for eldritch knight who just got access to any mithral armor at half-price. I'm seriously considering retraining to take heavy armor proficiency to replace cleave, so I can take spellsword to reduce the ASF of a mithral breast plate or even mithral full plate. Ed
Timlagor 03-11-07, 01:12 PM	Hitting tagets with ranged touch spells is not a problem. It really isn't. Take a decent dex if you plan to use them and pick up PBS+PS. At higher levels you won't even need the Feats since generally touch ACs will be less than 10. Feats: I was comparing your build's Feats to those of a Fighter/barb/whatever without any magic. Spells: I was comparing the Warmage list with the Sorceror list (Wizard is better still of course). Warmages have more spells known but they all do the same thing and it isn't something that you should be doing with a gish. If you don't want to be a Gish then don't even consider dropping spell levels. BAB doesn't even begin to come close to being near to almost compensating. Spellsword: ONE level is great (no spell loss and nice goodies). Channel spell is arguably good enough to pay for the missing spell levels but I certainly wouldn't go further. I was stressing the "commandment" for Warmage. Gish builds have to sacrifice some obviously but you don't do that with Warmage.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-11-07, 01:53 PM	Also, Warmage is pretty much useless in a gish build. The idea behind an effective gish is using magic to enhance your melee. With a warmage based one, you are stuck either blasting or meleeing, and are worse at both than a straight fighter or a straight warmage. It's ok to want diversity in a character, so long as it doesn't make them less effective at what they are supposed to be able to do well.
JBeauMI 03-11-07, 03:08 PM	Thank you all for the information. I was thinking of a ranged blaster/archer who can wear armor and still swing a sword when necessary, which I gather is not a gish. I have no idea what the term is for that template, probably mutt. I'll have to pick up CM to read up on Unseen Seer and Ranged Recall. It is one of the few books I am missing. I've only been playing D&D for a couple years in a core-only setting (since my Navy D&D v1 days), and started LG last year because I wanted to try a high-power game with more variety of players. Now I need to find the time to play more often. Anyway, thank you all again for the education.
jstorrie 03-11-07, 08:00 PM	An Arcane Archer might be what you're looking for. If you do a two-level dip you can place area spells in an arrow that you fire, as a standard action, which is good for dropping greater fireburst or antimagic field at range. Or you could go full Arcane Archer and be a good ranged attacker with some magical backup.
JBeauMI 03-11-07, 10:53 PM	Arcane Archer is roughly what I am envisioning, but using magic far more than arrows. Think Warmage to Elditch Knight: armed and armored, with 2 lost caster levels, and a medium BAB. A supporting range attacker who typically uses magic, but is procifient with weaponry.
jstorrie 03-11-07, 11:50 PM	If you take all those Eldritch Knight levels, you lose out on your Warmage bonus feats. You also won't run out of spells as a Warmage. By the time you actually start taking Eldritch Knight levels, you'd never have a reason to use a bow or a sword instead of a spell, short of being caught in an antimagic field.
UMiskatonic 03-12-07, 12:12 PM	Ranger/Warmage will work fine. With Craft Arms/Armor, you could do VERY well. You're a ranged combat guy, and will use arrows instead of spells when you're out, or when they will work better, or when you're fighting mooks who aren't worth wasting spells on.
JBeauMI 03-12-07, 07:19 PM	So a warmage cannot be improved upon within the bounds of the game. That is a very impressive class. Again, thank you for the education, especailly jstorrie!
Mommy was an Orc 03-12-07, 07:41 PM	That's not 100% true. There are some possible things with Unseen Seer. A Scout 1/Warmage 4/Unseen Seer 10 with Arcane Disciple for the 2nd Divination spell can be pretty effective. Sure, you're down a level, but +5d6 Skirmish adds a lot as does being a skill monkey.
JBeauMI 03-12-07, 08:55 PM	Forgive for hijacking the thread I started, but (again newby) how do you keep your arcane caster alive for 5-6 levels before hitting Spellsword? I imagine you sell the armor and shield you bought at level 1, and play wizard, with a sword, bow and guisarme? Is it any different playing that character than a normal wizard until you hit the first Spellsword level?
tlotig 03-13-07, 10:52 PM	So a warmage cannot be improved upon within the bounds of the game. That is a very impressive class. Again, thank you for the education, especailly jstorrie! Oh, they can be improved a little, go for one of pure caster PrCs (wild mage, or lvl 1-4 of fate spinner). jstorrie is right about us never running out of spells though. Mind you as i recently found out Warmages dont handle subdual damage well.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-13-07, 10:57 PM	Oh, they can be improved a little, go for one of pure caster PrCs (wild mage, or lvl 1-4 of fate spinner). jstorrie is right about us never running out of spells though. Mind you as i recently found out Warmages dont handle subdual damage well. All they need is non-lethal substitution...good to go.
tlotig 03-13-07, 11:11 PM	yeah, but bit short on feats hoping to get access to Bigby's Striking fist (PHBII)and retrain to it
JBeauMI 03-13-07, 11:35 PM	Wow, I came to tinker and got testimonials. Do the Scout and Beguiler classes generally fall into this catagory (too good to mess with)? P.S. MwaO, what INT are you applying to the Scout/Warmage/Unseen Seer build to get the 8 ranks of Hide, Spot and Search as cross-class skills for a Warmage?
Timlagor 03-14-07, 08:19 PM	It's not that the Warmage is too good to mess with, it's that it's too specialised to play well with other classes. Beguilers go well with pretty much any PrC that offers full spellcasting but go in exactly the opposite direction from Warmages: they have virtually no damage dealing (a very little non-lethal) and only a limitted amount of buffing. It's certainly a much better candidate for a 'Gish' (using Melee and Arcane Strike for the damage) but I'm not sure how well it would work out. Beguiler looks like a very nice class all by itself. Scouts are too bad to mess with (well they were). The realy big drawback is the movement requirement which basically kills your all-important full attack. You can work around this in a couple of ways however: - Dervish (BAB loss and lack of bonus feats hurts though) - Pounce (pretty much means Wildrunner) - Scout 1 and then straight Arcanist (pick up skirmish damage on your rays/orbs but you do it primarily for the trapfinding and skills) The new feats do a lot to make Skirmish worthwhile.
Mommy was an Orc 03-16-07, 11:09 AM	P.S. MwaO, what INT are you applying to the Scout/Warmage/Unseen Seer build to get the 8 ranks of Hide, Spot and Search as cross-class skills for a Warmage? Need a minimum of 4 skill points per level. You start off with 2 ranks in Search, 3 in Spot, and 4 in Hide. At 2nd, you buy 4 ranks in Spellcraft. At 3rd, you retrain Search then cc it. At 4th, you retrain Spot then cc it at 5th. That's where your 4 skill points are necessary at 5th. Finally, you retrain Hide at 5th, which puts it up to 8 ranks.
Paul H 03-18-07, 07:46 PM	Hi I play a Cleric/Warmage/Mystic Theurge. OK - a support & Spellflinger - not a melee character, but the Warmage does have good spells for combat. It's the Arcane Caster BAB that stops it being too powerful. 1) Fist of Stone. Chill Touch. Shocking Grasp 2) Blades of Fire. Fireburst. Whirling Blade. 3) Fire Shield. Poison. Ring of Blades. 4) OK - couple good 'cone' spells, & contagion takes too long for combat. 5) Fireshield Mass. Fireburst Greater. 6) Tenser's Transformation (Is this still legal)? 7) Mordenkainen' Sword. The Ranger/Warmage/Eldritch Knight combo looks good. You get your Favoured NME bonus to spell damage. (CA Pg 85). OK, you're down 2 spell levels, but got extra skill points at 1st lvl, and end up with more HP/BAB. And don't forget that Tenser's Floating Disk you took at Warmage 3 (Adv. Learning). It helps with movement. (Though no charging). Did also look at Swashbuckler/Warmage, with Combat Casting/Shielded Caster combo, doing Shocking grasp every round. For: Insightful Strike & Warmage Edge stack. (Int damage twice). Wpn Finesse at 1st level Good Skill Points No attacks of opportunity (Shielded Caster) Good mobility (Tenser's Disk) Against: Boring - all you do is Shocking Grasp every round - even if it is 5D6+(Int x2) (Though you could do Ring of Blades/Firesburst at higher levels). Waiting - best at 6th level, (Warmage 3/Swashbuckler 3), with that Tenser's Disc. Cheers Paul H
GrahamWills 03-21-07, 10:59 AM	Arcane Archer is roughly what I am envisioning, but using magic far more than arrows. Think Warmage to Elditch Knight: armed and armored, with 2 lost caster levels, and a medium BAB. A supporting range attacker who typically uses magic, but is procifient with weaponry. A warmage at medium levels can wear mithril full plate, with a light shield. He will already have good dex, so assuming he only has +1 on both, his AC is: 10 + 8 (plate) + 1 (shield) + 2 (bonuses) + 4 (dex) = 25 Even without the mithril plate, it's still 23 with nothing extra. I have a 6 halfling warmage in elven chain +1 that has a 23. I haven't even bothered picking up a ring of protection or the like. If I really cared about AC, he'd swap out his cloak of charisma for dex gloves and his elven boots for +2 armor and +1 ring, giving him a 26 AC. Why would you want more than that? It's not like a ranged warmage needs much armor anyway. My character took the elven chain mainly because of the weight benefits (I like actually having a positive swim modifier wearing full armor and shield). I doubt I'll ever bother to get out of light armor. I don't really get hit much -- and an armored warmage is not an inviting ranged target for opponents. If you want to be a ranged blaster, staright warmage is the way to go. But the archer is way cooler and probably more fun!
kenobi65 03-21-07, 11:05 AM	And don't forget that Tenser's Floating Disk you took at Warmage 3 (Adv. Learning). It helps with movement. (Though no charging). As was pointed out in another thread where you posted this same trick, it doesn't work. You can't ride on your own Tenser's.