Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oogar 04-27-07, 12:18 AM	I have been toying with a Dwarven Beguiler Gish Build, and thought I would bounce it off of you all - see if it has too many holes - beyond what I have already accepted. Also Looking for Feat suggestions for the open ones. Dwarf 14 14 16 16 8 6 1 - Beguiler 1 (Combat Reflexes) 2 - Fighter 1 (EWP - Spiked Chain) 3 - Beguiler 2 (Battle Caster - go go mithril full plate, eventually) 4 - Beguiler 3 5 - Beguiler 4 6 - Beguiler 5 (Silent Spell for free, Power Attack) 7 - Beguiler 6 8 - Spellsword 1 (10% armor reduction opens animated mithril heavy shield (ha ha ha)) 9 - Eldrich Knight 1 (Arcane Strike - BAB has hit +6 at this point, multi attacks - also, another fighter feat) 10 - Eldrich Knight 2 11 - Eldrich Knight 3 12 - Eldrich Knight 4 (Open Feat, maybe Craft Wonderous, use with UMD) 13 - Eldrich Knight 5 14 - Eldrich Knight 6 (BAB +11 and also have 6th level spells by this point - go go arcane strike) 15 - Eldrich Knight 7 (Open Feat) What I am looking at is a build with lots of spell slots, trapfinding, solid AC and really fun spells when not turning them into arcane strike fodder. SEEMS like it should work okay to me. Flaws: Limited Spell List, Slow to get a 'good' BAB, Lacks some of the good buffs. Tight Skill points if choose to keep search and Disable at cap using cross class search and Disable. Options: Have considered 1 level of Exotic Weapon Master for Flurry - which could give 5 attacks in a round (with haste) which gets a little scary with Arcane Strike. Thoughts?
Timlagor 04-27-07, 06:23 AM	You seem to have a pretty good diea of the limitations. I think you may be overestimating the value of the spell list -there are certainly some good buffs but they are few and far between and gishes are all about buffs (+the odd channeled / spell-stored spell). I think that if you want Arcane Trapfinding you really need some sort of Trickster. Something like: Rogue/Wiz/US/SS/EK with perhaps a few more spell levels dropped for better BAB and Feats. I think you may be trying to do just a little too much but I do think your build is playable. If you go for it, do come back and report on your progress for us :)
Sieylianna 04-27-07, 07:42 AM	It may work, but I think it's going to be a struggle. Skill points are going to be an issue as you noted. A 6 charisma doesn't let you take advantage of a chunk of the beguiler skill list. If you're going to take advantage of combat reflexes and the spiked chain, you'll need to be in the front line, which may be an issue in survival. Ed
clik_ml 04-27-07, 08:39 AM	Rogue/Wiz/US/SS/EK with perhaps a few more spell levels dropped for better BAB and Feats. That needs armor and weapon profs to be legal though. A beguiler really does make a sub-standard gish. Crafting isn't as good due to their spell list and its buffs aren't bragable either. It really synergizes almost nothing with melee fighting other than arcane strike ammo to a fighting niche. On the other hand, most of its spells are really awesome when used by a dedicated caster who can max out DCs and throw lots of spells at enemies. Unfortunately muddying up the works with non-casting levels really puts a hamper on the best abilities of a beguiler. The real trouble is that you don't really get to mix much from beguiler and melee fighting unlike other gishes who get buffs+discounted equipment. You're likely to either be wearing your warrior hat and feeling a little impotent, or wearing your beguiler hat and feeling a little impotent. Sort of like a mystic theurge in that you can provide two different roles, at char level-2 each (plus multiple ability dependency). If you want trapfinding + damage dealing + fun spells, then an Unseen Seer is almost certainly your best bet. TWFing with a lynx paw can net you a lot more than 5 attacks per round during your high APL career, especially if you throw in the flurry ability from EWMaster (though I wouldn't expect it to be worth the 2 feat+1 level buy-in for a gish like this). With arcane strike and sneak attack, that is booploads of damage being dealt out. 2 Rogue/2 Sorc/1 Rogue/10 UnseenSeer Feats: 1)TWF 3)ImpToughness 6)CraftWonder 9)Arcane Strike 12)Imp TWF 15)StaggeringStrike That's a very basic build which can easily be tweaked in a variety of ways. I prefer sorcerer over wizard for unseen seer because of the versatility in swapping the 1st level spells i.e. Use Master's Touch for proficiency with whatever you fancy... Critical Strike versus normals, Golem Strike versus constructs, Grave Strike versus undead, and Vine Strike versus plants. There are plenty of pro-wizard folks out there, and they definitely have their upsides as well. I know an Unseen Seer isn't remotely similar to your character build proposed, but I think it accomplishes the task much, much better.
Mommy was an Orc 04-27-07, 10:05 AM	I don't think Beguiler is hopeless as a Gish - they just don't make great straightup Fighter/Wizard Gishes, they're more Rogue/Fighter/Illusionist Gishes. They qualify for Unseen Seer without a lot of problems with skill points and they should take advantage of that with a Rogue level. Beguiler 2/Monk 2/Rogue 1/Unseen Seer 10 is one of the more interesting builds - Beguiler comes first due to retraining issues - you eventually take Practiced Spellcaster at 1st and Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd rather than use up valuable high level feat slots. Put a Greater Invisibility on yourself on round 1 and go to work...