Build to Max Dodge AC Bonus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Build to Max Dodge AC Bonus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Suvarov454
04-29-07, 09:47 PM I am building a character around the mechanic of having the highest Dodge bonus to AC available to a LG PC. I would appreciate it greatly if I could get some advice from the optimization experts on this forum. Is there a way of getting a larger Dodge bonus? Is there a build with more survivable mid levels? What sort of magical equipment should I select (besides the obvious Dex, Str, and Int boosters)?

Please note, I intentionally avoided levels in Dualist, as a Mithral Buckler seems like a superior choice (e.g. a +5 Mithral Buckler beats 3 levels of Dualist plus the Einhander feat). I realize this is an example of practical concerns interfering with the purity of my vision, but I mean to play this character (which is already <euphamism>less than optimal</euphamism>). Feel free to argue in favor of it, if you feel stongly, however.

Here is my build:
Gnome
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8
All level bonuses to stats will be applied to Dex

1: Swashbucker 1 - Dodge, Weapon Finesse
2: Fighter 1 - Titan Fighting
3: Swashbuckler 2 - Combat Expertise, Grace +2
4: Fighter 2 - Weapon Focus (Rapier)
5: Swashbuckler 3 - Insightful Strike
6: Blade Bravo 1 - Mobility, Flourish, Goad
7: Blade Bravo 2 - Mobile Fighting
8: Blade Bravo 3 - Spring Attack
9: Blade Bravo 4 - Underfoot Combat, Melee Sneak Attack +1d6
10: Blade Bravo 5 - Size Advantage
11: Gnome Giant Slayer 1 - Favored Enemy (Giant)
12: Gnome Giant Slayer 2 - Confound the Big Folk, Crafy Fighter
13: Rouge 1 - Sneak Attack +1d6
14: Rouge 2 - Evasion
15: Rouge 3 - Daring Outlaw, Sneak Attack +2d6

As you can see, the character has a hard time dealing out damage (until the end of his career when the Sneak Attack bonuses kick in, making the Flourish and Confound the Big Folk feats really shine). He's particularly hard to play around APL 8 (Mobility? Spring Attack?!? they're prereqs for Giant Slayer). He really shines late in his career, however.

At 10th level he has a +7 Dodge bonus against a Medium creature if he moves 5 ft, +9 vs a Large, +13 if he can enter one of that Large creature's squares, and +17 vs a Giant (if he can enter one of it's squares). At 12th level, the bonuses go to +11 vs a Large, +15 vs Large when in it's square, and +21 vs a Large Giant when in it's square; don't forget the 50% chance that the Large creature's allies will hit my enemy instead of me. YUMMY!!! At 15th level, add one more to all those Dodge bonuses, and I have +4d6 sneak attack damage (1 from Blade Bravo, 2 from Rogue, and 1 from Swashbuckler) thanks to Daring Outlaw.

So, would you please pimp my Gnome?
Maesto
04-30-07, 01:01 AM No comment on the build, but if you want some more AC, you can try taking 5 levels of scout to get a +2 dodge bonus to AC when moving, take improved skirmish to bump it to +4 (requires you to move 40 feet though). Improved combat expertise lets you bump your combat expertise by your bab instead of capping at 5, so you can go further there. If you use a quarterstaff, quickstaff will get you an extra couple. Finally, if you can squeeze it in, a couple of levels of thief acrobat also bump up your fighting defensively capabilities.

Note that this kind of character can do nothing more (in combat) than fight defensively and hope that he doesn't get hit (AC sitting around 45-50 usually). You usually need an ability like goad to force critters to try to hit you. Reduce person also bumps your AC further.

Just my 2c =)
ThaiGQ
05-01-07, 01:01 AM I've been toying idea with a build similar to this as well...gaining awesome dodge bonuses vs. "giant-sized" creatures (at least relative to my Gnome, anyway), but in the end, I couldn't find a way to effectively combine sneak attack with the feats I wanted to take, so I went with a variant of the Shock Trooper/Combat Brute/Elusive Target fighter build I've seen on this forum:

Gnome (Need a funny name for him as well!)

Str: 14, Dex: 14, Con: 16, Int: 14, Wis: 8, Cha: 8
(Starting stats after racial adjustment and all stat bumps go into Str)

Lv1: Brd1 (Dodge)
Lv2: Ftr1 (Power Attack)
Lv3: Ftr2 (Mobility, Titan Fighting)
Lv4: Ftr3
Lv5: Ftr4 (Improved Bullrush)
Lv6: Ftr5 (Improved Sunder)
Lv7: Ftr6 (Giantbane)
Lv8: Ftr7
Lv9: Ftr8 (Shock Trooper, Elusive Target)
Lv10: Ftr9
Lv11: Ftr10 (Combat Brute)
Lv12: Ftr11 (Underfoot Combat)
Lv13: Ftr12 (Combat Expertise?)
LV14: Ftr13
Lv15: Ftr14 (Improved Trip?, Confound the Big Folk)

Skills: Max out climb and tumble at every level for the Giantbane and Underfoot Combat/Confound the Big Folk feats.

I had to take a level of Bard for the tumble skill... Although I would've preferred Rogue for the added sneak attack damage, Bard kept the build from taking xp penalties.

I know this is hardly an optimal build but it seems like it might be fun to play. :P I imagine him cheerfully charging Large-sized creatures while singing (for the Bard song) and then clambering up their backs to keep hacking away! I also know that the build doesn't become even marginally effective until around level 9, but with close to full BAB, I figured it would be decent enough to survive until then...while still being able to contribute to front-line combat. As well, I'm at a loss for the last two bonus fighter feats... :confused:

Thoughts?
Suvarov454
05-01-07, 12:38 PM I've been toying idea with a build similar to this as well...gaining awesome dodge bonuses vs. "giant-sized" creatures (at least relative to my Gnome, anyway), but in the end, I couldn't find a way to effectively combine sneak attack with the feats I wanted to take, so I went with a variant of the Shock Trooper/Combat Brute/Elusive Target fighter build I've seen on this forum:
Very interesting: your Gnome build is closer to "best Dodge available, without giving up Shock Trooper". May I recommend swapping the Power Attack and Titan Fighter feats? Because Power Attack is capped by BAB, you're only getting +2 damage (I'm assuming, of course, that you're using two handed weapons) and you're delaying a +3 increase to your Dodge AC.
ThaiGQ
05-02-07, 02:50 AM Very interesting: your Gnome build is closer to "best Dodge available, without giving up Shock Trooper". May I recommend swapping the Power Attack and Titan Fighter feats? Because Power Attack is capped by BAB, you're only getting +2 damage (I'm assuming, of course, that you're using two handed weapons) and you're delaying a +3 increase to your Dodge AC.

Not a bad idea! This build was originally built using the LGCSY596 rules, so Titan Fighting wasn't available until Character Level 3. :P

I like your idea though, and sneak attack might be more viable now with the inclusion of the Complete Scoundrel into this year's LGCS...I'll post a new build in this thread if I can find a way of making it work. ;)
Gwumph
05-02-07, 03:34 AM Why bother ThaiGQ!!!

It's not like you are ever going to play within the next century!!! LOL
jstorrie
05-02-07, 04:15 AM You can get a +9 or 10 dodge bonus to AC if you play a Bladesinger, and still have light armor and a buckler for armor/shield AC, as well as defensive spells–you might want to consider that route if you're looking for a super-cork.
Suvarov454
05-02-07, 07:03 PM You can get a +9 or 10 dodge bonus to AC if you play a Bladesinger, and still have light armor and a buckler for armor/shield AC, as well as defensive spells–you might want to consider that route if you're looking for a super-cork.

If I understand you correctly, the Bladesinger dodge bonus is from the Bladesong Style, which is limited both by the character's Bladesigner class level, and the character's Int bonus. If I'm correct (that is, if you aren't counting some other source of dodge bonus), then the character would need an int of 28 to get the +9 dodge bonus. Let's see if I can figure out how to reach that stat... 18 base; +2 for Grey Elf; +3 for Level 4, 8, and 12; +6 Headband of Intellect = 29! OK, so that's how we do it. If I can get access to a Tome of Clear Thought +1, I can get the full +10. Of course, to get all 10 levels of Bladesinger, I'll need to be a Hexblade 5/Bladesinger 10 (its MADness! MADness, I say!).

P.S. I had not realized that a buckler does not violate the "nothing in the other hand" requirement of Bladesong Style, but is seems obvious in hindsight!
jstorrie
05-02-07, 09:11 PM The +10 requires a bit too much (Hexblading your way in would be awful) but +9 is feasible. A more streamlined build might start with Swash3/Ftr2, then tack on Illusionist 2 or Beguiler2/3, leaving you with +7/+8. Since you're likely going to want to finesse a rapier, you'll have high Dex, and Combat Expertise/Deadly Defense synergize well with this approach. You can actually do damage, via Insightful Strike and Arcane Strike, which is a plus.
Suvarov454
05-02-07, 10:18 PM The +10 requires a bit too much (Hexblading your way in would be awful) but +9 is feasible. A more streamlined build might start with Swash3/Ftr2, then tack on Illusionist 2 or Beguiler2/3, leaving you with +7/+8. Since you're likely going to want to finesse a rapier, you'll have high Dex, and Combat Expertise/Deadly Defense synergize well with this approach. You can actually do damage, via Insightful Strike and Arcane Strike, which is a plus.

Thanks for the idea! I'll probably do that at some point (I really like smart, high Dex, light armor fighters), and the build you suggest sounds very playable. I especially like that the Bladesinger's dodge bonus applies to all opponents. Still, there is something exceptionally satisfying about the Gnome Giant Killer adding +20 to his AC (on top of his Size, Dex, Armor, Buckler, Ring of Protection, and Amulet of Natural Armor bonuses :D ).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suvarov454 04-29-07, 09:47 PM	I am building a character around the mechanic of having the highest Dodge bonus to AC available to a LG PC. I would appreciate it greatly if I could get some advice from the optimization experts on this forum. Is there a way of getting a larger Dodge bonus? Is there a build with more survivable mid levels? What sort of magical equipment should I select (besides the obvious Dex, Str, and Int boosters)? Please note, I intentionally avoided levels in Dualist, as a Mithral Buckler seems like a superior choice (e.g. a +5 Mithral Buckler beats 3 levels of Dualist plus the Einhander feat). I realize this is an example of practical concerns interfering with the purity of my vision, but I mean to play this character (which is already <euphamism>less than optimal</euphamism>). Feel free to argue in favor of it, if you feel stongly, however. Here is my build: Gnome Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 All level bonuses to stats will be applied to Dex 1: Swashbucker 1 - Dodge, Weapon Finesse 2: Fighter 1 - Titan Fighting 3: Swashbuckler 2 - Combat Expertise, Grace +2 4: Fighter 2 - Weapon Focus (Rapier) 5: Swashbuckler 3 - Insightful Strike 6: Blade Bravo 1 - Mobility, Flourish, Goad 7: Blade Bravo 2 - Mobile Fighting 8: Blade Bravo 3 - Spring Attack 9: Blade Bravo 4 - Underfoot Combat, Melee Sneak Attack +1d6 10: Blade Bravo 5 - Size Advantage 11: Gnome Giant Slayer 1 - Favored Enemy (Giant) 12: Gnome Giant Slayer 2 - Confound the Big Folk, Crafy Fighter 13: Rouge 1 - Sneak Attack +1d6 14: Rouge 2 - Evasion 15: Rouge 3 - Daring Outlaw, Sneak Attack +2d6 As you can see, the character has a hard time dealing out damage (until the end of his career when the Sneak Attack bonuses kick in, making the Flourish and Confound the Big Folk feats really shine). He's particularly hard to play around APL 8 (Mobility? Spring Attack?!? they're prereqs for Giant Slayer). He really shines late in his career, however. At 10th level he has a +7 Dodge bonus against a Medium creature if he moves 5 ft, +9 vs a Large, +13 if he can enter one of that Large creature's squares, and +17 vs a Giant (if he can enter one of it's squares). At 12th level, the bonuses go to +11 vs a Large, +15 vs Large when in it's square, and +21 vs a Large Giant when in it's square; don't forget the 50% chance that the Large creature's allies will hit my enemy instead of me. YUMMY!!! At 15th level, add one more to all those Dodge bonuses, and I have +4d6 sneak attack damage (1 from Blade Bravo, 2 from Rogue, and 1 from Swashbuckler) thanks to Daring Outlaw. So, would you please pimp my Gnome?
Maesto 04-30-07, 01:01 AM	No comment on the build, but if you want some more AC, you can try taking 5 levels of scout to get a +2 dodge bonus to AC when moving, take improved skirmish to bump it to +4 (requires you to move 40 feet though). Improved combat expertise lets you bump your combat expertise by your bab instead of capping at 5, so you can go further there. If you use a quarterstaff, quickstaff will get you an extra couple. Finally, if you can squeeze it in, a couple of levels of thief acrobat also bump up your fighting defensively capabilities. Note that this kind of character can do nothing more (in combat) than fight defensively and hope that he doesn't get hit (AC sitting around 45-50 usually). You usually need an ability like goad to force critters to try to hit you. Reduce person also bumps your AC further. Just my 2c =)
ThaiGQ 05-01-07, 01:01 AM	I've been toying idea with a build similar to this as well...gaining awesome dodge bonuses vs. "giant-sized" creatures (at least relative to my Gnome, anyway), but in the end, I couldn't find a way to effectively combine sneak attack with the feats I wanted to take, so I went with a variant of the Shock Trooper/Combat Brute/Elusive Target fighter build I've seen on this forum: Gnome (Need a funny name for him as well!) Str: 14, Dex: 14, Con: 16, Int: 14, Wis: 8, Cha: 8 (Starting stats after racial adjustment and all stat bumps go into Str) Lv1: Brd1 (Dodge) Lv2: Ftr1 (Power Attack) Lv3: Ftr2 (Mobility, Titan Fighting) Lv4: Ftr3 Lv5: Ftr4 (Improved Bullrush) Lv6: Ftr5 (Improved Sunder) Lv7: Ftr6 (Giantbane) Lv8: Ftr7 Lv9: Ftr8 (Shock Trooper, Elusive Target) Lv10: Ftr9 Lv11: Ftr10 (Combat Brute) Lv12: Ftr11 (Underfoot Combat) Lv13: Ftr12 (Combat Expertise?) LV14: Ftr13 Lv15: Ftr14 (Improved Trip?, Confound the Big Folk) Skills: Max out climb and tumble at every level for the Giantbane and Underfoot Combat/Confound the Big Folk feats. I had to take a level of Bard for the tumble skill... Although I would've preferred Rogue for the added sneak attack damage, Bard kept the build from taking xp penalties. I know this is hardly an optimal build but it seems like it might be fun to play. :P I imagine him cheerfully charging Large-sized creatures while singing (for the Bard song) and then clambering up their backs to keep hacking away! I also know that the build doesn't become even marginally effective until around level 9, but with close to full BAB, I figured it would be decent enough to survive until then...while still being able to contribute to front-line combat. As well, I'm at a loss for the last two bonus fighter feats... :confused: Thoughts?
Suvarov454 05-01-07, 12:38 PM	I've been toying idea with a build similar to this as well...gaining awesome dodge bonuses vs. "giant-sized" creatures (at least relative to my Gnome, anyway), but in the end, I couldn't find a way to effectively combine sneak attack with the feats I wanted to take, so I went with a variant of the Shock Trooper/Combat Brute/Elusive Target fighter build I've seen on this forum: Very interesting: your Gnome build is closer to "best Dodge available, without giving up Shock Trooper". May I recommend swapping the Power Attack and Titan Fighter feats? Because Power Attack is capped by BAB, you're only getting +2 damage (I'm assuming, of course, that you're using two handed weapons) and you're delaying a +3 increase to your Dodge AC.
ThaiGQ 05-02-07, 02:50 AM	Very interesting: your Gnome build is closer to "best Dodge available, without giving up Shock Trooper". May I recommend swapping the Power Attack and Titan Fighter feats? Because Power Attack is capped by BAB, you're only getting +2 damage (I'm assuming, of course, that you're using two handed weapons) and you're delaying a +3 increase to your Dodge AC. Not a bad idea! This build was originally built using the LGCSY596 rules, so Titan Fighting wasn't available until Character Level 3. :P I like your idea though, and sneak attack might be more viable now with the inclusion of the Complete Scoundrel into this year's LGCS...I'll post a new build in this thread if I can find a way of making it work. ;)
Gwumph 05-02-07, 03:34 AM	Why bother ThaiGQ!!! It's not like you are ever going to play within the next century!!! LOL
jstorrie 05-02-07, 04:15 AM	You can get a +9 or 10 dodge bonus to AC if you play a Bladesinger, and still have light armor and a buckler for armor/shield AC, as well as defensive spells–you might want to consider that route if you're looking for a super-cork.
Suvarov454 05-02-07, 07:03 PM	You can get a +9 or 10 dodge bonus to AC if you play a Bladesinger, and still have light armor and a buckler for armor/shield AC, as well as defensive spells–you might want to consider that route if you're looking for a super-cork. If I understand you correctly, the Bladesinger dodge bonus is from the Bladesong Style, which is limited both by the character's Bladesigner class level, and the character's Int bonus. If I'm correct (that is, if you aren't counting some other source of dodge bonus), then the character would need an int of 28 to get the +9 dodge bonus. Let's see if I can figure out how to reach that stat... 18 base; +2 for Grey Elf; +3 for Level 4, 8, and 12; +6 Headband of Intellect = 29! OK, so that's how we do it. If I can get access to a Tome of Clear Thought +1, I can get the full +10. Of course, to get all 10 levels of Bladesinger, I'll need to be a Hexblade 5/Bladesinger 10 (its MADness! MADness, I say!). P.S. I had not realized that a buckler does not violate the "nothing in the other hand" requirement of Bladesong Style, but is seems obvious in hindsight!
jstorrie 05-02-07, 09:11 PM	The +10 requires a bit too much (Hexblading your way in would be awful) but +9 is feasible. A more streamlined build might start with Swash3/Ftr2, then tack on Illusionist 2 or Beguiler2/3, leaving you with +7/+8. Since you're likely going to want to finesse a rapier, you'll have high Dex, and Combat Expertise/Deadly Defense synergize well with this approach. You can actually do damage, via Insightful Strike and Arcane Strike, which is a plus.
Suvarov454 05-02-07, 10:18 PM	The +10 requires a bit too much (Hexblading your way in would be awful) but +9 is feasible. A more streamlined build might start with Swash3/Ftr2, then tack on Illusionist 2 or Beguiler2/3, leaving you with +7/+8. Since you're likely going to want to finesse a rapier, you'll have high Dex, and Combat Expertise/Deadly Defense synergize well with this approach. You can actually do damage, via Insightful Strike and Arcane Strike, which is a plus. Thanks for the idea! I'll probably do that at some point (I really like smart, high Dex, light armor fighters), and the build you suggest sounds very playable. I especially like that the Bladesinger's dodge bonus applies to all opponents. Still, there is something exceptionally satisfying about the Gnome Giant Killer adding +20 to his AC (on top of his Size, Dex, Armor, Buckler, Ring of Protection, and Amulet of Natural Armor bonuses :D ).