Build - The Daring TWF Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Build - The Daring TWF Fighter [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Mommy was an Orc
03-02-07, 02:38 PM Human
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8

1: Rogue 1: TWF, Telling Blow
2: Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse
3: Rogue 2: WF: Kukri
4: Swashbuckler 2: Dex 17
5: Rogue 3
6: Fighter 1: Daring Outlaw, Improved Buckler Defense
7: Fighter 2: ITWF
8: Fighter 3: Dex 18
9: Fighter 4: WS: Kukri, Melee Weapon Mastery(Slashing)
10: Swashbuckler 3
11: Rogue 4
12: Swashbuckler 4: Improved Crit: Dex 19
13: Swashbuckler 5
14: Swashbuckler 6
15: Swashbuckler 7: GTWF

At 15th level, he does 1d6+Str+Int+4+6d6 damage with a Short Sword. It is pretty reasonable that the Str will be 5 and the Int 3. That's an average of 36 or 34 hp per strike where the character makes 7 strikes a round with Haste when flanking. While he won't be the Raging Barbarian with a 30 something strength, things will tend to vanish in a cloud of red smoke.

That's also before magic items. Add another 12 or so hit points of damage per swing. This can probably be further tweaked, but...a solid 140 hp of damage with 3 hits should happen often at APL 12+.
jstorrie
03-02-07, 03:47 PM I might consider Kukri instead of Short Sword. If you free up a feat somewhere, you can take Telling Blow to reduce your flanking reliance.

This is very similar to a build I'd been considering, though I stick to straight Swashbuckler and 2H instead of TWF:

Human
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8
1 Rogue: Power Attack, Telling Blow
2 Rogue
3 Swashbuckler: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade, Weapon Finesse
4 Swashbuckler
5 Swashbuckler
6 Rogue: Daring Outlaw
7 Swashbuckler
8 Swashbuckler
9 Swashbuckler: feat
10 Swashbuckler
11 Swashbuckler
12 Swashbuckler: feat
13 Swashbuckler
14 Swashbuckler
15 Swashbuckler: feat

Weapon Spec/Mastery is good, but +4 damage over four levels, as compared to +2.5d6 sneak attack, is only competitive in that it allows you to deal damage when sneak attacks don't work, or when you don't have a flank. Telling Blow is an alternative for no-flanks, and Power Attack is an alternative for no-sneaks. I think this comes down to personal aesthetic preference, though I have a hunch that a 2H-Power Attack Daring Outlaw has the higher 'dps' potential. The feats are also more open - you could take, say, Victor's Luck and other Luck feats, or WF and Power Critical (okay, not the greatest idea) or Improved Critical if you don't find keen access (pretty likely, considering how rarely one sees specific courtblades in treasure boxes.)
Mommy was an Orc
03-02-07, 05:24 PM Weapon Spec/Mastery is good, but +4 damage over four levels, as compared to +2.5d6 sneak attack, is only competitive in that it allows you to deal damage when sneak attacks don't work, or when you don't have a flank.

Kukri/Telling Blow taken. But that doesn't quite make sense - you're forgetting that +3 to hit(+2 onto any slashing weapon, including falchions) - while it may not translate directly into damage currently, it means the iteratives are a lot more likely to land and do damage.
Golorious
03-02-07, 08:16 PM For the open feat I would consider.

Power Critical for more synergy with telling blow.

Improved Buckler defense for a tich of AC.

Exotic weapon proficiency Elven Light blade (possibily)

Quick Draw, so you can get out your weapons.

Improved initiative to get the Jump start on sneaks.
jstorrie
04-10-07, 11:30 PM I think a very viable alternative, using a courtblade, is (crossposted from another thread)

Human
Str 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8
1 Rogue: Power Attack, Telling Blow (Trapfinding, Sneak Attack 1d6)
2 Ftr: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade
3 Swash Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Elven Courtblade
4 Swash (Grace +1)
5 Rogue (Evasion)
6 Rogue: Daring Outlaw (Sneak Attack 3d6, Dodge Bonus +1)
7 Ftr: Power Critical: Elven Courtblade
8 Ftr
9 Ftr Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery
10 Swash (Insightful Strike)
11 Rogue (Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack 4d6)
12 Swash Improved Critical: Elven Courtblade
13 Swash (Sneak Attack 5d6)
14 Swash (Dodge bonus +2)
15 Swash Slashing Flurry (Sneak Attack 6d6)

The tradeouts here are essentially GTWF for Power Critical (a slight loss), Improved Buckler Defense for Power Attack (a major improvement) and ITWF for Slashing Flurry (better and worse, depending on circumstance). Taking the fighter level earlier lets you allocate your skill points more nicely, and I don't think delaying Weapon Finesse from 2 to 3 is particularly crippling since at that level Weapon Finesse is only going to be giving you +1 to hit.

I like this build a lot, and have been poking at it for a while (the one I detailed in this post is my roadmap for the Daring Outlaw I now have in play.) Switching to 2H gives you needed versatility, as you don't want to have to invest cc points in UMD just to manage in undead/construct/plant/elemental encounters.
Mommy was an Orc
04-11-07, 12:35 AM Actually, I'd probably go a slightly different route:
Drop Telling Blow - even with 6d6 of Sneak Damage and Improved Crit, it only at best represents 30% of 6d6 damage(assuming I can't already sneak). That's about 6 hp of damage, which isn't that great.

Take EWP: Lynxpaw and a level in Exotic Weapon Master for flurry. While a slightly inferior weapon to the Courtblade(1d6 vs 1d10), the extra attack will more than make up for that loss in damage. I'm also quite curious about the Longstaff for similar reasons(for a Big John style fighter), except it isn't finessable.

Drop Improved Buckler Defense for Power Attack.

That has the following effect:
You have a weapon to TWF with when you're fighting a sneak attack vulnerable opponent.

You have a weapon to THF/Power Attack/Flurry with when you're not.

As a double weapon, you can wield it in 1 hand if you choose, if you need a shield AC.
jstorrie
04-11-07, 03:32 AM Is 6 damage that little, if we're talking about averages? Weapon Specialization is only 2, after all. I think in terms of numerical punch, Telling Blow definitely has it–although you're certainly right that it's situational. But that is mostly the point, I think: you don't need Telling Blow when you have a flat-footed opponent or a flank, because not only will you have sneak dice, you'll have extra to-hit to Power Attack away. Telling Blow is a safety net for when you aren't in an optimal situation, and it's probably better than 30% anyway, since you might be only hitting on a 5, or a 10, or whatever.

I don't think lynxpaw would really help the top-end damage all that much, since your Power Attack potential would be lowered–yes, you could wield it two-handed, but if that was your aim why devote feats to dual-wielding it in the first place? With only 6d6 sneak attack plus Int, the Daring Outlaw definitely has less than a pure Rogue's bonus damage, so I have a hunch that straight 2H Power Attack is going to outdo two-weapon fighting, even with a flurry in the mix, and especially with the downgrade from 1d10 to 1d6–already a drop of two damage per hit, on average. While the sneak dice don't multiply on a crit, the Int, Str, extra two points of average weapon damage and the Power Attack bonus damage do–so against foes against which lynxpaw sneak attack flurrying would excel, the courtblade still keeps pace. Against foes who ignore sneaks and crits, you're still two points of damage up for using a bigger weapon.

The lynxpaw certainly isn't bad, and I think it's superior to wielding kukris if you EWM for flurries: very clever. I'm still of the opinion that two-handing is going to be the best option in nearly all cases, especially when high AC or damage reduction come into play, but the Daring Outlaw is right on the 'bonus damage' cusp where two-weapon fighting is nearly as viable and certainly above iconic.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-07, 02:38 PM	Human Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 1: Rogue 1: TWF, Telling Blow 2: Swashbuckler 1: Weapon Finesse 3: Rogue 2: WF: Kukri 4: Swashbuckler 2: Dex 17 5: Rogue 3 6: Fighter 1: Daring Outlaw, Improved Buckler Defense 7: Fighter 2: ITWF 8: Fighter 3: Dex 18 9: Fighter 4: WS: Kukri, Melee Weapon Mastery(Slashing) 10: Swashbuckler 3 11: Rogue 4 12: Swashbuckler 4: Improved Crit: Dex 19 13: Swashbuckler 5 14: Swashbuckler 6 15: Swashbuckler 7: GTWF At 15th level, he does 1d6+Str+Int+4+6d6 damage with a Short Sword. It is pretty reasonable that the Str will be 5 and the Int 3. That's an average of 36 or 34 hp per strike where the character makes 7 strikes a round with Haste when flanking. While he won't be the Raging Barbarian with a 30 something strength, things will tend to vanish in a cloud of red smoke. That's also before magic items. Add another 12 or so hit points of damage per swing. This can probably be further tweaked, but...a solid 140 hp of damage with 3 hits should happen often at APL 12+.
jstorrie 03-02-07, 03:47 PM	I might consider Kukri instead of Short Sword. If you free up a feat somewhere, you can take Telling Blow to reduce your flanking reliance. This is very similar to a build I'd been considering, though I stick to straight Swashbuckler and 2H instead of TWF: Human Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 1 Rogue: Power Attack, Telling Blow 2 Rogue 3 Swashbuckler: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade, Weapon Finesse 4 Swashbuckler 5 Swashbuckler 6 Rogue: Daring Outlaw 7 Swashbuckler 8 Swashbuckler 9 Swashbuckler: feat 10 Swashbuckler 11 Swashbuckler 12 Swashbuckler: feat 13 Swashbuckler 14 Swashbuckler 15 Swashbuckler: feat Weapon Spec/Mastery is good, but +4 damage over four levels, as compared to +2.5d6 sneak attack, is only competitive in that it allows you to deal damage when sneak attacks don't work, or when you don't have a flank. Telling Blow is an alternative for no-flanks, and Power Attack is an alternative for no-sneaks. I think this comes down to personal aesthetic preference, though I have a hunch that a 2H-Power Attack Daring Outlaw has the higher 'dps' potential. The feats are also more open - you could take, say, Victor's Luck and other Luck feats, or WF and Power Critical (okay, not the greatest idea) or Improved Critical if you don't find keen access (pretty likely, considering how rarely one sees specific courtblades in treasure boxes.)
Mommy was an Orc 03-02-07, 05:24 PM	Weapon Spec/Mastery is good, but +4 damage over four levels, as compared to +2.5d6 sneak attack, is only competitive in that it allows you to deal damage when sneak attacks don't work, or when you don't have a flank. Kukri/Telling Blow taken. But that doesn't quite make sense - you're forgetting that +3 to hit(+2 onto any slashing weapon, including falchions) - while it may not translate directly into damage currently, it means the iteratives are a lot more likely to land and do damage.
Golorious 03-02-07, 08:16 PM	For the open feat I would consider. Power Critical for more synergy with telling blow. Improved Buckler defense for a tich of AC. Exotic weapon proficiency Elven Light blade (possibily) Quick Draw, so you can get out your weapons. Improved initiative to get the Jump start on sneaks.
jstorrie 04-10-07, 11:30 PM	I think a very viable alternative, using a courtblade, is (crossposted from another thread) Human Str 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1 Rogue: Power Attack, Telling Blow (Trapfinding, Sneak Attack 1d6) 2 Ftr: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade 3 Swash Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Elven Courtblade 4 Swash (Grace +1) 5 Rogue (Evasion) 6 Rogue: Daring Outlaw (Sneak Attack 3d6, Dodge Bonus +1) 7 Ftr: Power Critical: Elven Courtblade 8 Ftr 9 Ftr Weapon Specialization, Melee Weapon Mastery 10 Swash (Insightful Strike) 11 Rogue (Uncanny Dodge, Sneak Attack 4d6) 12 Swash Improved Critical: Elven Courtblade 13 Swash (Sneak Attack 5d6) 14 Swash (Dodge bonus +2) 15 Swash Slashing Flurry (Sneak Attack 6d6) The tradeouts here are essentially GTWF for Power Critical (a slight loss), Improved Buckler Defense for Power Attack (a major improvement) and ITWF for Slashing Flurry (better and worse, depending on circumstance). Taking the fighter level earlier lets you allocate your skill points more nicely, and I don't think delaying Weapon Finesse from 2 to 3 is particularly crippling since at that level Weapon Finesse is only going to be giving you +1 to hit. I like this build a lot, and have been poking at it for a while (the one I detailed in this post is my roadmap for the Daring Outlaw I now have in play.) Switching to 2H gives you needed versatility, as you don't want to have to invest cc points in UMD just to manage in undead/construct/plant/elemental encounters.
Mommy was an Orc 04-11-07, 12:35 AM	Actually, I'd probably go a slightly different route: Drop Telling Blow - even with 6d6 of Sneak Damage and Improved Crit, it only at best represents 30% of 6d6 damage(assuming I can't already sneak). That's about 6 hp of damage, which isn't that great. Take EWP: Lynxpaw and a level in Exotic Weapon Master for flurry. While a slightly inferior weapon to the Courtblade(1d6 vs 1d10), the extra attack will more than make up for that loss in damage. I'm also quite curious about the Longstaff for similar reasons(for a Big John style fighter), except it isn't finessable. Drop Improved Buckler Defense for Power Attack. That has the following effect: You have a weapon to TWF with when you're fighting a sneak attack vulnerable opponent. You have a weapon to THF/Power Attack/Flurry with when you're not. As a double weapon, you can wield it in 1 hand if you choose, if you need a shield AC.
jstorrie 04-11-07, 03:32 AM	Is 6 damage that little, if we're talking about averages? Weapon Specialization is only 2, after all. I think in terms of numerical punch, Telling Blow definitely has it–although you're certainly right that it's situational. But that is mostly the point, I think: you don't need Telling Blow when you have a flat-footed opponent or a flank, because not only will you have sneak dice, you'll have extra to-hit to Power Attack away. Telling Blow is a safety net for when you aren't in an optimal situation, and it's probably better than 30% anyway, since you might be only hitting on a 5, or a 10, or whatever. I don't think lynxpaw would really help the top-end damage all that much, since your Power Attack potential would be lowered–yes, you could wield it two-handed, but if that was your aim why devote feats to dual-wielding it in the first place? With only 6d6 sneak attack plus Int, the Daring Outlaw definitely has less than a pure Rogue's bonus damage, so I have a hunch that straight 2H Power Attack is going to outdo two-weapon fighting, even with a flurry in the mix, and especially with the downgrade from 1d10 to 1d6–already a drop of two damage per hit, on average. While the sneak dice don't multiply on a crit, the Int, Str, extra two points of average weapon damage and the Power Attack bonus damage do–so against foes against which lynxpaw sneak attack flurrying would excel, the courtblade still keeps pace. Against foes who ignore sneaks and crits, you're still two points of damage up for using a bigger weapon. The lynxpaw certainly isn't bad, and I think it's superior to wielding kukris if you EWM for flurries: very clever. I'm still of the opinion that two-handing is going to be the best option in nearly all cases, especially when high AC or damage reduction come into play, but the Daring Outlaw is right on the 'bonus damage' cusp where two-weapon fighting is nearly as viable and certainly above iconic.