Build: Cleric of Zilchus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Build: Cleric of Zilchus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Monkey76
02-12-07, 01:24 PM Zilchus: Power, Prestige, Money, Business, Influence
Alignment: LN
Favored Weapon: Dagger
Domains: City (RoD), Knowledge, Law, Mind (CD), Pact (CD), Trickery

I want to play a cleric of Zilchus for role-playing reasons. However,
based on the limitations of this deity, what build would be effective?
I was considering a buffer or a summoner. However, I'd be open to any
role that is enhanced by these domains/granted powers. The problem is
that I haven't heard discussion on any Zilchus domains because they
aren't generally considered the "best" (aka Travel, Sun, Strength, or
whichever). So, how do I best leverage these domains?

I currently like Trickery and Pact because they have good spells, but
are their alternatives that would enhance a specific build?
UMiskatonic
02-12-07, 01:44 PM It's not hard to have a cleric with good people skills, and the medium charisma (14?) will help with your turning undead as well.

Pay for Rich upkeep, that's another +2, and SO appropriate.

That way, you're the cleric, and the face. Not bad for starters. Trickery domain adds Bluff, right?

You could go cleric/rogue, and use invisibility, imp. feint, or both to make best use of that dagger.

Even if you do go straight cleric, I'd invest in items like a hat of disguise, circlet of persuasion, mask of lies,...

Knowledge domain is handy, but it pays off best when you are smart. I might be the smart Zilchan instead of the charismatic Zilchan, but I wouldn't try to do both, you'll start to have MAD problems.

The Verbobonc Town Project allows characters to own property and businesses, and Dyvers has something similar. Maybe that fits as well, making those gold pieces....
Monkey76
02-12-07, 02:41 PM I will stay straight cleric, no plans to introduce rogue into the mix.

It's not hard to have a cleric with good people skills, and the medium charisma (14?) will help with your turning undead as well.

Pay for Rich upkeep, that's another +2, and SO appropriate.

That way, you're the cleric, and the face. Not bad for starters. Trickery domain adds Bluff, right?

Trickery - Granted Power: Add Bluff, Disguise, and Hide to your list of cleric class skills

Even if you do go straight cleric, I'd invest in items like a hat of disguise, circlet of persuasion, mask of lies,...

Knowledge domain is handy, but it pays off best when you are smart. I might be the smart Zilchan instead of the charismatic Zilchan, but I wouldn't try to do both, you'll start to have MAD problems.

I agree, especially the circlet of persuasion. Any cleric that doesn't buy that skipped out on Cleric 101.

As for smart or face cleric, you are right, doing both is too hard. I think I will go with the face because Trickery's granted power favors Charisma investment.

Are there any feats that compliment Trickery or one of the other Domains?

I think the best stats for a faceman/buffer/turner would be:

Str: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Wis: 15 (all my bumps go here)
Int: 10
Ch: 14

What do you think?
jstorrie
02-12-07, 02:53 PM I'd run with Wis 14, Int 14, Cha 12 instead. It's a more economical use of points, and gets you four skills - Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Sense Motive?

Keep in mind that with no Concentration you'll need to play very carefully.

Pact is totally awesome, yes. It's definitely one of the 'power domains.'

Ask yourself how much melee you'll actually be doing. It might be in your interest to dump Dex and Str, use the points to pump Int/Wis, and play caster cleric.
myshkingfh
02-12-07, 02:55 PM What are you going to do with that Dex? I'd imagine a zilchan walking around is goldplated full plate. Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't that better in Str for the damage bonus or in int for the extra skill?
Monkey76
02-12-07, 03:31 PM Double post because of log in issues.
Monkey76
02-12-07, 03:32 PM I'd run with Wis 14, Int 14, Cha 12 instead. It's a more economical use of points, and gets you four skills - Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Sense Motive?

Keep in mind that with no Concentration you'll need to play very carefully.

I plan on playing human. Also, I had another character with lots of Disguise and he barely used it. I don't think I will put too much into that skill, unless you have additional insight. As for Concentration, you're definitely right. That still leaves me low on skill points. I think I will bump that Int to 14.

Pact is totally awesome, yes. It's definitely one of the 'power domains.'

Ask yourself how much melee you'll actually be doing. It might be in your interest to dump Dex and Str, use the points to pump Int/Wis, and play caster cleric.

I plan on very little melee. However, I will (only at low levels) play meat shield for some of my lower AC buddies. However, I need some strength for armor and equipment.

Myshkingfh, is right, I think I will use that Dex for Int. Dex would help with Init, Ref Saves, and some AC, but it isn't worth it.

STR 10
DEX 10
CON 14
WIS 15 (three bumps make it 18)
INT 14
CHA 12

OR

STR 10
DEX 10
CON 14
WIS 15
INT 12
CHA 14
And have Diplomacy, Concentration, Sense Motive, and Knowledge Religion

Either way, I'm definitely a faceman/caster cleric, not melee.

So, what feats would help me out here now that DMM and DSP are out.

Disciple of the Sun, Spell Focus, Domain Spontaneity... I'd think CWI is a given.

Thanks for the help so far.
Morgen
02-12-07, 03:50 PM Now this is only a suggestion, but I can't see how a travelling cleric of Zilchus could ever not take the feat Wanderer's Diplomacy from the PHB2. The Canny Merchant part of it just fits so well! Plus Intuitive Communication and Social Agility arn't terrible either. ;)

Trickery and Pact are probably your best bets for Domains. Your a cleric so eventually your stats will be whatever you've buffed them to be if you need them. Perhaps you fight with a dagger and a shield, just to make that silly combination.

Now what you really need are some good battlecries for Zilchus. Something to yell like, "We're here to collect the interest, on your soul!" or something. I don't know, I'm not very good with battlecries, I'm in a hobbity sort of mindset. "No payments, no interest for 12 months!"
UMiskatonic
02-12-07, 04:28 PM I'll vote for Trickery and Pact too. And I think you'll want a 10 Dex. It's easy to have a solid AC with full plate and a heavy shield, and then you've got all of your magic defenses too.

I know a 12 Dex seems great, but you're better off putting those points elsewhere. You can cast aid, resist energy, bear's endurance, stalwart pact, ...so having a reflex save of +3 isn't that bad. And boosting to +4, well, I'm sorry to say that isn't really any better.

However, having one more language, and one more skill like Bluff maxed out? That's solid.

Besides, you can easily cover up for bad reflex saves with CWI. Gloves of Dex +2 and a vest of resistance, and you are in adequate shape.
Gaelforcwynd
02-13-07, 08:03 AM Are there any feats that compliment Trickery or one of the other Domains?

Well this is a Pandora's Box type question. I love Clerics and will investigate later tonight. :D

I think the best stats for a faceman/buffer/turner would be:

Str: 10
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Wis: 15 (all my bumps go here)
Int: 10
Ch: 14

What do you think?

You don't need DEX 12, unless you plan on wearing full plate rather than heavy plate or unless you really want to bump DEX to 13 later for a feat requirement (Dodge). Better to put those spare points into STR and be able to hit more often, deal more damage and bear loads better (like that heavy plate etc.).

You are going to have to wait until 12th level to get a bonus 4th level spell, instead of 8th if you had gone with WIS 16 initially. Go with WIS 16 and put your first two bumps into WIS to maximise your divine spellcasting.

Keep taking ranks in Knowledge(Religion) in case you have access to the Contemplative PrC at 10th level and you can get an extra domain. It's a long shot, but I like the idea of a 3rd domain.

I just recently learned of the Domain Spontaneity feat, which I believe allows you to convert daily turning attempts into spontaneously cast domain spells. Don't quote me on that, I don't have access to a description of that domain. Someone else will know. That being the case, feats or PrC's (?) which grant you extra turning attemps (Extra Turning) might be worth investigating.

I'd start with..

Human Cleric 1 of Zilchus (Pact/Trickery)

STR: 10(0) - dagger
DEX:10(0) - buckler, scale mail (full or heavy plate later)
CON:14(+2) - Amulet of Health +2 when you can afford to make it
INT:10(0)
WIS: 16(+3) - bump to 18 by 8th lvl
CHA: 14(+2) - Cloak of Charisma +2 when you can afford to make it

Bluff: 4 (5 @ 2nd lvl)
Concentration: 0 (3 @ 3rd lvl, 6 @ 4th, 8 @ 5th, 9 @ 6th, 10 @ 7th +)
Intimidate: 4 (5 @ 2nd lvl, 6 @ 5th lvl, 8 @ 6th, 10 @ 7th lvl +)
Knowledge (Religion): 4 (5 @ 2nd lvl)

Extra Turning
Improved Initiative
Domain Spontaneity @ 3rd lvl

Maybe switch Scribe Scroll or Skill Focus(Concentration/Intimidate) with one of the above feats. Possibly take Craft Wondrous Item at 6th level.

That's all I can think of for now.
Monkey76
02-13-07, 12:13 PM Now this is only a suggestion, but I can't see how a travelling cleric of Zilchus could ever not take the feat Wanderer's Diplomacy from the PHB2. The Canny Merchant part of it just fits so well! Plus Intuitive Communication and Social Agility arn't terrible either. ;)

I'll have to look at Wander's Diplomacy when I get the chance. I don't have a PHBII. Generally, what does the feat do?

Trickery and Pact are probably your best bets for Domains. Your a cleric so eventually your stats will be whatever you've buffed them to be if you need them. Perhaps you fight with a dagger and a shield, just to make that silly combination.

I've been thinking about Domains a lot.

Mind: +2 Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive
1: Comp Language
2: Detect Thoughts
3: Telepathic Bond, Lesser
4: Discern Lies
5: Telepathic Bond
6: Probe Thoughts
7: Brain Spider
8: Mind Blank
9: Weird

Pact: Appraise, Intimidate and Sense Motive class skills
1: Command
2: Shield Other
3: Speak with Dead
4: Divination
5: Stalwart Pact
6: Zealot Pact
7: Renewal Pact
8: Death Pact
9: Gate

Trickery: Bluff, Disguise and Hide class skills
1: Disguise Self
2: Invisibility
3: Nondetection
4: Confusion
5: False Vision
6: Mislead
7: Screen
8: Mindblank (was Polymorph Any Object)
9: Time Stop

The maximum skill points I will have every level are 5 (2 cleric, 1 human, 2 INT). I need to spend points on Concentration and Religion (at least for the first 7 or so levels), so that leaves me with 3 skills I can max out. Diplomacy is one and Sense Motive is another. If I take a 14 INT I'll have one left to put into Spellcraft (mainly), Bluff, Knowledge Arcana, Intimidate or Heal. So, I don't need access to lots of new class skills. The problem is that Pact and Trickery do both.

Trickery: Bluff, Disguise and Hide class skills
Pact: Appraise, Intimidate and Sense Motive class skills

So, that makes many of the class skills granted by the domains pointless.

However, Trickery has Invisibility and Confusion, useful spells. Other than that the spells aren't spectacular, until Time Stop (wow). Mind would give me bonuses to Diplomacy and Sense Motives and provide some useful (Detect Thoughts, Telepathic Bond spells), but not spectacular domain spells.

So, does anyone think it would be unwise to take Mind over Trickery considering my limited skill points?

Now what you really need are some good battlecries for Zilchus. Something to yell like, "We're here to collect the interest, on your soul!" or something. I don't know, I'm not very good with battlecries, I'm in a hobbity sort of mindset. "No payments, no interest for 12 months!"

As for battle cries, <grin> I took courses in Secured Finance, Bankruptcy, Contracts, and Commercial Paper. I've got lots so far. If you have others add to the list:

"You are an overleveraged debtor and we are your perfected creditor!"
"Only a capital infusion can save you now!"
"Prepare yourselves for the Realm of Debt and Infinite Usery (aka Hell)!" or "Communism"
"We have overleveraged ourselves, withdraw!"
"May Zilchus shield you from liability and never revoke your credit."
"I am hear to commence your liquidation proceedings."
"You are as a lemonnade stand in the eyes of the the Divine Investor."
LachlarlanIII
02-13-07, 12:23 PM Diplomacy is used to handle contracts and fees. Sounds like an excellent skill for any cleric of Zilchus to have max ranks in.

I have a Hexblade/Marshal who worships Zilchus that has max ranks in Diplomacy. He doesn't use it to get out of fights (like most diplomancers), but instead uses (tries to anyway) to get what he wants in business dealings.
LachlarlanIII
02-13-07, 12:24 PM Diplomacy is used to handle contracts and fees. Sounds like an excellent skill for any cleric of Zilchus to have max ranks in.

I have a Hexblade/Marshal who worships Zilchus that has max ranks in Diplomacy. He doesn't use it to get out of fights (like most diplomancers), but instead uses (tries to anyway) to get what he wants in business dealings.

If someone renigs on his contract he can curse that person... albeit for a short time, but still! :D
Alpha_Nerd
02-13-07, 12:31 PM I would say Trickery and Pact are the way to go. If you're a cleric of the god of trade, you have to be able to bend the truth and sense when others are bending the truth. As for my skills I'd pick: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge: Religion, Sense Motive. At 11th I'd start heading into Contemplative, pick up another domain (Probably Mind for Probe Thoughts), and either go back to cleric or finish up Contemptlative.
Monkey76
02-13-07, 12:32 PM My browser is acting up. Double Post.
Monkey76
02-13-07, 12:33 PM I'll vote for Trickery and Pact too. And I think you'll want a 10 Dex. It's easy to have a solid AC with full plate and a heavy shield, and then you've got all of your magic defenses too.

Based on what you and Gaelforcwynd said, yes DEX 10 is the way to go. However, Gaelforcwynd, I think Wis 16 is too expensive. I'd rather have a higher Int or Cha instead. I know it will slow the power of my spells a bit, but I think the Int or Cha will enhance my character.

STR 10
DEX 10
CON 14
WIS 15
INT 14 (or 12)
CHA 12 (or 14)

Currently I am considering the following feats:

Disciple of the Sun (CD)
You may spend two turn attempts when you turn undead instead of one. If you do then you destroy the undead instead of turning them.
Note: I plan on the PC being Lawful Good.

Divine Ward (PH2)
Create ward(s) with allies to make touch Conjuration (healing) spells close range spells.

Sacred Healing
(CD) Burn one turn attempt to give all living creatures fast healing 3 for a number of rounds equal to your Cha modifier.

And I might take Wanderer's Diplomacy depending on what it is. I will also take CWI at 6th as I will have extra TUs with this guy.

Anyone else have feat suggestions?
Alpha_Nerd
02-13-07, 12:39 PM Domain Spontaneity: Trickery. All The invisibilities and confuses you could want.
Augment Healing: I like it, pairs especially well with Insignia of Healing and the Mass Cure spells
Scribe Scroll: Very solid feat, if you don't want to take Domain Spontaneity it's a good way to keep multiple domains spells on hand.
Craft Wondrous Item: Semi-Nerfed, but as a cleric of wealth crafting your own items to save gold seems like a rather in-character idea.

Edit: 8 STR 14 INT 14 CHA is my vote.
Nutation
02-13-07, 01:05 PM I'd imagine a zilchan walking around in goldplated full plate.

This is quite possible now, with the colored metals from Races of the Dragon being Open access.
Monkey76
02-14-07, 12:22 PM This is quite possible now, with the colored metals from Races of the Dragon being Open access.

This sounds very good. I have never even looked at Races of the Dragon. How much gp do these metals add to the cost of armor?
Nutation
02-14-07, 03:03 PM This sounds very good. I have never even looked at Races of the Dragon. How much gp do these metals add to the cost of armor?

Per new LGCS, no extra cost.
Morgen
02-15-07, 12:31 AM I'll have to look at Wander's Diplomacy when I get the chance. I don't have a PHBII. Generally, what does the feat do?

Well let's see here. The main thing the feat does that fits a cleric of Zilchus is its Canny Merchant ability. You make a diplomacy check to track down an item that's too epensive for the town or settlement where your currently located. It's like a DC 10+ (the item's gp cost minus the community's gp limit, divided by a 1000). The other two abilitys allow you to use Sense Movies to understand creatures who don't speak a language you know through the use of Intuitive Communication, and the ability to use Bluff to replace Diplomacy using Social Agility. Though it worsens thier attitude by a level after about 10 minutes, it'll get you past lots of trouble. Plus you can use it as a standard action without taking the -10 penalty! My lier monk is sooo taking it.

As for battle cries, <grin> I took courses in Secured Finance, Bankruptcy, Contracts, and Commercial Paper. I've got lots so far. If you have others add to the list:

"You are an overleveraged debtor and we are your perfected creditor!"
"Only a capital infusion can save you now!"
"Prepare yourselves for the Realm of Debt and Infinite Usery (aka Hell)!" or "Communism"
"We have overleveraged ourselves, withdraw!"
"May Zilchus shield you from liability and never revoke your credit."
"I am hear to commence your liquidation proceedings."
"You are as a lemonnade stand in the eyes of the the Divine Investor."

"I am here to commence your liquidation proceedings." WIN!! :D
Gaelforcwynd
02-15-07, 04:38 AM Domain Spontaneity: Trickery. All The invisibilities and confuses you could want.
Augment Healing: I like it, pairs especially well with Insignia of Healing and the Mass Cure spells
Scribe Scroll: Very solid feat, if you don't want to take Domain Spontaneity it's a good way to keep multiple domains spells on hand.
Craft Wondrous Item: Semi-Nerfed, but as a cleric of wealth crafting your own items to save gold seems like a rather in-character idea.

Edit: 8 STR 14 INT 14 CHA is my vote.

I thought Domain Spontaneity didn't give you extra spells..
UMiskatonic
02-15-07, 04:15 PM Domain Spontaneity doesn't give you any MORE spells a day. However, you can spontaneously convert other spells into domain spells. So, it's all the invisibilities and confusions you could want subject to your normal limitation of spells per day.
Gaelforcwynd
02-16-07, 03:39 AM Domain Spontaneity doesn't give you any MORE spells a day. However, you can spontaneously convert other spells into domain spells. So, it's all the invisibilities and confusions you could want subject to your normal limitation of spells per day.

Ah I see. This sounds really cool. I'm going to plan most of my Cleric build around this from now on. I'm going to have to buy the CD to see more of these nifty options. :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Monkey76 02-12-07, 01:24 PM	Zilchus: Power, Prestige, Money, Business, Influence Alignment: LN Favored Weapon: Dagger Domains: City (RoD), Knowledge, Law, Mind (CD), Pact (CD), Trickery I want to play a cleric of Zilchus for role-playing reasons. However, based on the limitations of this deity, what build would be effective? I was considering a buffer or a summoner. However, I'd be open to any role that is enhanced by these domains/granted powers. The problem is that I haven't heard discussion on any Zilchus domains because they aren't generally considered the "best" (aka Travel, Sun, Strength, or whichever). So, how do I best leverage these domains? I currently like Trickery and Pact because they have good spells, but are their alternatives that would enhance a specific build?
UMiskatonic 02-12-07, 01:44 PM	It's not hard to have a cleric with good people skills, and the medium charisma (14?) will help with your turning undead as well. Pay for Rich upkeep, that's another +2, and SO appropriate. That way, you're the cleric, and the face. Not bad for starters. Trickery domain adds Bluff, right? You could go cleric/rogue, and use invisibility, imp. feint, or both to make best use of that dagger. Even if you do go straight cleric, I'd invest in items like a hat of disguise, circlet of persuasion, mask of lies,... Knowledge domain is handy, but it pays off best when you are smart. I might be the smart Zilchan instead of the charismatic Zilchan, but I wouldn't try to do both, you'll start to have MAD problems. The Verbobonc Town Project allows characters to own property and businesses, and Dyvers has something similar. Maybe that fits as well, making those gold pieces....
Monkey76 02-12-07, 02:41 PM	I will stay straight cleric, no plans to introduce rogue into the mix. It's not hard to have a cleric with good people skills, and the medium charisma (14?) will help with your turning undead as well. Pay for Rich upkeep, that's another +2, and SO appropriate. That way, you're the cleric, and the face. Not bad for starters. Trickery domain adds Bluff, right? Trickery - Granted Power: Add Bluff, Disguise, and Hide to your list of cleric class skills Even if you do go straight cleric, I'd invest in items like a hat of disguise, circlet of persuasion, mask of lies,... Knowledge domain is handy, but it pays off best when you are smart. I might be the smart Zilchan instead of the charismatic Zilchan, but I wouldn't try to do both, you'll start to have MAD problems. I agree, especially the circlet of persuasion. Any cleric that doesn't buy that skipped out on Cleric 101. As for smart or face cleric, you are right, doing both is too hard. I think I will go with the face because Trickery's granted power favors Charisma investment. Are there any feats that compliment Trickery or one of the other Domains? I think the best stats for a faceman/buffer/turner would be: Str: 10 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Wis: 15 (all my bumps go here) Int: 10 Ch: 14 What do you think?
jstorrie 02-12-07, 02:53 PM	I'd run with Wis 14, Int 14, Cha 12 instead. It's a more economical use of points, and gets you four skills - Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Sense Motive? Keep in mind that with no Concentration you'll need to play very carefully. Pact is totally awesome, yes. It's definitely one of the 'power domains.' Ask yourself how much melee you'll actually be doing. It might be in your interest to dump Dex and Str, use the points to pump Int/Wis, and play caster cleric.
myshkingfh 02-12-07, 02:55 PM	What are you going to do with that Dex? I'd imagine a zilchan walking around is goldplated full plate. Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't that better in Str for the damage bonus or in int for the extra skill?
Monkey76 02-12-07, 03:31 PM	Double post because of log in issues.
Monkey76 02-12-07, 03:32 PM	I'd run with Wis 14, Int 14, Cha 12 instead. It's a more economical use of points, and gets you four skills - Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Sense Motive? Keep in mind that with no Concentration you'll need to play very carefully. I plan on playing human. Also, I had another character with lots of Disguise and he barely used it. I don't think I will put too much into that skill, unless you have additional insight. As for Concentration, you're definitely right. That still leaves me low on skill points. I think I will bump that Int to 14. Pact is totally awesome, yes. It's definitely one of the 'power domains.' Ask yourself how much melee you'll actually be doing. It might be in your interest to dump Dex and Str, use the points to pump Int/Wis, and play caster cleric. I plan on very little melee. However, I will (only at low levels) play meat shield for some of my lower AC buddies. However, I need some strength for armor and equipment. Myshkingfh, is right, I think I will use that Dex for Int. Dex would help with Init, Ref Saves, and some AC, but it isn't worth it. STR 10 DEX 10 CON 14 WIS 15 (three bumps make it 18) INT 14 CHA 12 OR STR 10 DEX 10 CON 14 WIS 15 INT 12 CHA 14 And have Diplomacy, Concentration, Sense Motive, and Knowledge Religion Either way, I'm definitely a faceman/caster cleric, not melee. So, what feats would help me out here now that DMM and DSP are out. Disciple of the Sun, Spell Focus, Domain Spontaneity... I'd think CWI is a given. Thanks for the help so far.
Morgen 02-12-07, 03:50 PM	Now this is only a suggestion, but I can't see how a travelling cleric of Zilchus could ever not take the feat Wanderer's Diplomacy from the PHB2. The Canny Merchant part of it just fits so well! Plus Intuitive Communication and Social Agility arn't terrible either. ;) Trickery and Pact are probably your best bets for Domains. Your a cleric so eventually your stats will be whatever you've buffed them to be if you need them. Perhaps you fight with a dagger and a shield, just to make that silly combination. Now what you really need are some good battlecries for Zilchus. Something to yell like, "We're here to collect the interest, on your soul!" or something. I don't know, I'm not very good with battlecries, I'm in a hobbity sort of mindset. "No payments, no interest for 12 months!"
UMiskatonic 02-12-07, 04:28 PM	I'll vote for Trickery and Pact too. And I think you'll want a 10 Dex. It's easy to have a solid AC with full plate and a heavy shield, and then you've got all of your magic defenses too. I know a 12 Dex seems great, but you're better off putting those points elsewhere. You can cast aid, resist energy, bear's endurance, stalwart pact, ...so having a reflex save of +3 isn't that bad. And boosting to +4, well, I'm sorry to say that isn't really any better. However, having one more language, and one more skill like Bluff maxed out? That's solid. Besides, you can easily cover up for bad reflex saves with CWI. Gloves of Dex +2 and a vest of resistance, and you are in adequate shape.
Gaelforcwynd 02-13-07, 08:03 AM	Are there any feats that compliment Trickery or one of the other Domains? Well this is a Pandora's Box type question. I love Clerics and will investigate later tonight. :D I think the best stats for a faceman/buffer/turner would be: Str: 10 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Wis: 15 (all my bumps go here) Int: 10 Ch: 14 What do you think? You don't need DEX 12, unless you plan on wearing full plate rather than heavy plate or unless you really want to bump DEX to 13 later for a feat requirement (Dodge). Better to put those spare points into STR and be able to hit more often, deal more damage and bear loads better (like that heavy plate etc.). You are going to have to wait until 12th level to get a bonus 4th level spell, instead of 8th if you had gone with WIS 16 initially. Go with WIS 16 and put your first two bumps into WIS to maximise your divine spellcasting. Keep taking ranks in Knowledge(Religion) in case you have access to the Contemplative PrC at 10th level and you can get an extra domain. It's a long shot, but I like the idea of a 3rd domain. I just recently learned of the Domain Spontaneity feat, which I believe allows you to convert daily turning attempts into spontaneously cast domain spells. Don't quote me on that, I don't have access to a description of that domain. Someone else will know. That being the case, feats or PrC's (?) which grant you extra turning attemps (Extra Turning) might be worth investigating. I'd start with.. Human Cleric 1 of Zilchus (Pact/Trickery) STR: 10(0) - dagger DEX:10(0) - buckler, scale mail (full or heavy plate later) CON:14(+2) - Amulet of Health +2 when you can afford to make it INT:10(0) WIS: 16(+3) - bump to 18 by 8th lvl CHA: 14(+2) - Cloak of Charisma +2 when you can afford to make it Bluff: 4 (5 @ 2nd lvl) Concentration: 0 (3 @ 3rd lvl, 6 @ 4th, 8 @ 5th, 9 @ 6th, 10 @ 7th +) Intimidate: 4 (5 @ 2nd lvl, 6 @ 5th lvl, 8 @ 6th, 10 @ 7th lvl +) Knowledge (Religion): 4 (5 @ 2nd lvl) Extra Turning Improved Initiative Domain Spontaneity @ 3rd lvl Maybe switch Scribe Scroll or Skill Focus(Concentration/Intimidate) with one of the above feats. Possibly take Craft Wondrous Item at 6th level. That's all I can think of for now.
Monkey76 02-13-07, 12:13 PM	Now this is only a suggestion, but I can't see how a travelling cleric of Zilchus could ever not take the feat Wanderer's Diplomacy from the PHB2. The Canny Merchant part of it just fits so well! Plus Intuitive Communication and Social Agility arn't terrible either. ;) I'll have to look at Wander's Diplomacy when I get the chance. I don't have a PHBII. Generally, what does the feat do? Trickery and Pact are probably your best bets for Domains. Your a cleric so eventually your stats will be whatever you've buffed them to be if you need them. Perhaps you fight with a dagger and a shield, just to make that silly combination. I've been thinking about Domains a lot. Mind: +2 Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive 1: Comp Language 2: Detect Thoughts 3: Telepathic Bond, Lesser 4: Discern Lies 5: Telepathic Bond 6: Probe Thoughts 7: Brain Spider 8: Mind Blank 9: Weird Pact: Appraise, Intimidate and Sense Motive class skills 1: Command 2: Shield Other 3: Speak with Dead 4: Divination 5: Stalwart Pact 6: Zealot Pact 7: Renewal Pact 8: Death Pact 9: Gate Trickery: Bluff, Disguise and Hide class skills 1: Disguise Self 2: Invisibility 3: Nondetection 4: Confusion 5: False Vision 6: Mislead 7: Screen 8: Mindblank (was Polymorph Any Object) 9: Time Stop The maximum skill points I will have every level are 5 (2 cleric, 1 human, 2 INT). I need to spend points on Concentration and Religion (at least for the first 7 or so levels), so that leaves me with 3 skills I can max out. Diplomacy is one and Sense Motive is another. If I take a 14 INT I'll have one left to put into Spellcraft (mainly), Bluff, Knowledge Arcana, Intimidate or Heal. So, I don't need access to lots of new class skills. The problem is that Pact and Trickery do both. Trickery: Bluff, Disguise and Hide class skills Pact: Appraise, Intimidate and Sense Motive class skills So, that makes many of the class skills granted by the domains pointless. However, Trickery has Invisibility and Confusion, useful spells. Other than that the spells aren't spectacular, until Time Stop (wow). Mind would give me bonuses to Diplomacy and Sense Motives and provide some useful (Detect Thoughts, Telepathic Bond spells), but not spectacular domain spells. So, does anyone think it would be unwise to take Mind over Trickery considering my limited skill points? Now what you really need are some good battlecries for Zilchus. Something to yell like, "We're here to collect the interest, on your soul!" or something. I don't know, I'm not very good with battlecries, I'm in a hobbity sort of mindset. "No payments, no interest for 12 months!" As for battle cries, <grin> I took courses in Secured Finance, Bankruptcy, Contracts, and Commercial Paper. I've got lots so far. If you have others add to the list: "You are an overleveraged debtor and we are your perfected creditor!" "Only a capital infusion can save you now!" "Prepare yourselves for the Realm of Debt and Infinite Usery (aka Hell)!" or "Communism" "We have overleveraged ourselves, withdraw!" "May Zilchus shield you from liability and never revoke your credit." "I am hear to commence your liquidation proceedings." "You are as a lemonnade stand in the eyes of the the Divine Investor."
LachlarlanIII 02-13-07, 12:23 PM	Diplomacy is used to handle contracts and fees. Sounds like an excellent skill for any cleric of Zilchus to have max ranks in. I have a Hexblade/Marshal who worships Zilchus that has max ranks in Diplomacy. He doesn't use it to get out of fights (like most diplomancers), but instead uses (tries to anyway) to get what he wants in business dealings.
LachlarlanIII 02-13-07, 12:24 PM	Diplomacy is used to handle contracts and fees. Sounds like an excellent skill for any cleric of Zilchus to have max ranks in. I have a Hexblade/Marshal who worships Zilchus that has max ranks in Diplomacy. He doesn't use it to get out of fights (like most diplomancers), but instead uses (tries to anyway) to get what he wants in business dealings. If someone renigs on his contract he can curse that person... albeit for a short time, but still! :D
Alpha_Nerd 02-13-07, 12:31 PM	I would say Trickery and Pact are the way to go. If you're a cleric of the god of trade, you have to be able to bend the truth and sense when others are bending the truth. As for my skills I'd pick: Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge: Religion, Sense Motive. At 11th I'd start heading into Contemplative, pick up another domain (Probably Mind for Probe Thoughts), and either go back to cleric or finish up Contemptlative.
Monkey76 02-13-07, 12:32 PM	My browser is acting up. Double Post.
Monkey76 02-13-07, 12:33 PM	I'll vote for Trickery and Pact too. And I think you'll want a 10 Dex. It's easy to have a solid AC with full plate and a heavy shield, and then you've got all of your magic defenses too. Based on what you and Gaelforcwynd said, yes DEX 10 is the way to go. However, Gaelforcwynd, I think Wis 16 is too expensive. I'd rather have a higher Int or Cha instead. I know it will slow the power of my spells a bit, but I think the Int or Cha will enhance my character. STR 10 DEX 10 CON 14 WIS 15 INT 14 (or 12) CHA 12 (or 14) Currently I am considering the following feats: Disciple of the Sun (CD) You may spend two turn attempts when you turn undead instead of one. If you do then you destroy the undead instead of turning them. Note: I plan on the PC being Lawful Good. Divine Ward (PH2) Create ward(s) with allies to make touch Conjuration (healing) spells close range spells. Sacred Healing (CD) Burn one turn attempt to give all living creatures fast healing 3 for a number of rounds equal to your Cha modifier. And I might take Wanderer's Diplomacy depending on what it is. I will also take CWI at 6th as I will have extra TUs with this guy. Anyone else have feat suggestions?
Alpha_Nerd 02-13-07, 12:39 PM	Domain Spontaneity: Trickery. All The invisibilities and confuses you could want. Augment Healing: I like it, pairs especially well with Insignia of Healing and the Mass Cure spells Scribe Scroll: Very solid feat, if you don't want to take Domain Spontaneity it's a good way to keep multiple domains spells on hand. Craft Wondrous Item: Semi-Nerfed, but as a cleric of wealth crafting your own items to save gold seems like a rather in-character idea. Edit: 8 STR 14 INT 14 CHA is my vote.
Nutation 02-13-07, 01:05 PM	I'd imagine a zilchan walking around in goldplated full plate. This is quite possible now, with the colored metals from Races of the Dragon being Open access.
Monkey76 02-14-07, 12:22 PM	This is quite possible now, with the colored metals from Races of the Dragon being Open access. This sounds very good. I have never even looked at Races of the Dragon. How much gp do these metals add to the cost of armor?
Nutation 02-14-07, 03:03 PM	This sounds very good. I have never even looked at Races of the Dragon. How much gp do these metals add to the cost of armor? Per new LGCS, no extra cost.
Morgen 02-15-07, 12:31 AM	I'll have to look at Wander's Diplomacy when I get the chance. I don't have a PHBII. Generally, what does the feat do? Well let's see here. The main thing the feat does that fits a cleric of Zilchus is its Canny Merchant ability. You make a diplomacy check to track down an item that's too epensive for the town or settlement where your currently located. It's like a DC 10+ (the item's gp cost minus the community's gp limit, divided by a 1000). The other two abilitys allow you to use Sense Movies to understand creatures who don't speak a language you know through the use of Intuitive Communication, and the ability to use Bluff to replace Diplomacy using Social Agility. Though it worsens thier attitude by a level after about 10 minutes, it'll get you past lots of trouble. Plus you can use it as a standard action without taking the -10 penalty! My lier monk is sooo taking it. As for battle cries, <grin> I took courses in Secured Finance, Bankruptcy, Contracts, and Commercial Paper. I've got lots so far. If you have others add to the list: "You are an overleveraged debtor and we are your perfected creditor!" "Only a capital infusion can save you now!" "Prepare yourselves for the Realm of Debt and Infinite Usery (aka Hell)!" or "Communism" "We have overleveraged ourselves, withdraw!" "May Zilchus shield you from liability and never revoke your credit." "I am hear to commence your liquidation proceedings." "You are as a lemonnade stand in the eyes of the the Divine Investor." "I am here to commence your liquidation proceedings." WIN!! :D
Gaelforcwynd 02-15-07, 04:38 AM	Domain Spontaneity: Trickery. All The invisibilities and confuses you could want. Augment Healing: I like it, pairs especially well with Insignia of Healing and the Mass Cure spells Scribe Scroll: Very solid feat, if you don't want to take Domain Spontaneity it's a good way to keep multiple domains spells on hand. Craft Wondrous Item: Semi-Nerfed, but as a cleric of wealth crafting your own items to save gold seems like a rather in-character idea. Edit: 8 STR 14 INT 14 CHA is my vote. I thought Domain Spontaneity didn't give you extra spells..
UMiskatonic 02-15-07, 04:15 PM	Domain Spontaneity doesn't give you any MORE spells a day. However, you can spontaneously convert other spells into domain spells. So, it's all the invisibilities and confusions you could want subject to your normal limitation of spells per day.
Gaelforcwynd 02-16-07, 03:39 AM	Domain Spontaneity doesn't give you any MORE spells a day. However, you can spontaneously convert other spells into domain spells. So, it's all the invisibilities and confusions you could want subject to your normal limitation of spells per day. Ah I see. This sounds really cool. I'm going to plan most of my Cleric build around this from now on. I'm going to have to buy the CD to see more of these nifty options. :D