Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Timlagor 03-01-07, 02:18 PM	Dedicated Archer Wood Elf Str 20 16 Dex 17 8 Con 10 4 Int 6 0 Wis 8 0 Cha 8 0 1 Ranger Point Blank Track 2 Ranger Rapid Shot 3 Fighter Precise Shot Weapon Focus 4 Fighter ???? 5 Fighter - 6 Fighter Woodland Archer Weapon Specialisation 7 Fighter - 8 Fighter Weapon Mastery 9 Fighter Manyshot - 10 Fighter Improved Rapid Shot 11 Fighter - 12 Fighter Greater Weapon Focus Improved Precise Shot 13 Fighter - 14 Fighter Greater Weapon Specialisation 15 ??? ??? - Notes * Low Will Save is a feature not a bug :) * Constitution is acceptable low because I will only get into melee at tables where everyone else is throwing spells. * 2 Ranger levels delay Feats but grant Track, wand use, Save boost and nice class skills for retraining into; probably keep Spot maxed * Barbarian + Extra Rage would be nice but another level of delay (except for IPS which would then come at 11th), problems when more than three firghts/day and my concept is definitely lawful. * Wondering about the possibility of saving for an early Belt of Giant Strength and adding that into my bow strength before I invest heavily. This would give me the option of 19Str and bumping it at 4th too (I expect to fix it before 8th). * Last level is a complete mystery at this point. Have I missed any important Feats or PrCs? What do I take in that 4th level slot? Are Woodland Archer and IRS in the right order? Should Woodland Archer be dropped once IPS comes in?
Alpha_Nerd 03-01-07, 02:30 PM	If you wanted you could put Endurance in the build somewhere, push Greater Weapon Spec to 15th and make your level 14-15 Wildrunner. Movement, +6 dex +2 str twice per day, scent, and Endure Elements. Maybe Ranger 1/Fighter 12/Wildrunner 2?
Timlagor 03-01-07, 02:50 PM	Hmm.. The Strength would do me no good but the Dex might be significant. I'm not sure how much trouble I'd have hitting by that point. I'd think that GWSpec would increase my damage more. I'm not sure how much I like the Frenzy thing for my Lawful military character either but there's no need to tie discussion to my specific concept. Occult Slayer seems an obvious PrC for the end. Ranger1/Fighter 12 would bring all my Feats up a level. I do feel there ought to be something good for me to put in at 4th level though... I suppose picking up Power Attack would be a good plan for those awkward tables. I also wondered about stopping with Fighter4 but I think there are enough Feats I want and that GWSPec is good enough to warrant 12 levels.
LachlarlanIII 03-01-07, 02:51 PM	15 = Ranger or Order of the Bow Initiate
Mommy was an Orc 03-01-07, 03:09 PM	Ranged Weapon Mastery requires a +8 BAB. I'd switch Ranger 2 with Fighter 1, lets you raise skill points a little faster. I'd probably try to fit Power Attack in there - you're not going to have a lot of hit points, but nor will you really miss when you do need to swing in melee. At which point, having Power Attack will likely save your life.
Timlagor 03-01-07, 03:12 PM	I've always thought OotBI was rather a poor PrC. Care to enlighten me? - I'm never going to use Ranged Precision (manyshot ismuch better) - The skills suck (2+Int and you have to waste a bunch to get in) - The Will Save is about the only decent thing about it and mine is already a lost cause. Ranger 3 I can see being useful (skills and +1 to all saves) but I reckon OS is better and I have the Feat slot free at present ...of course Complete Archer will be out by then :D
Timlagor 03-01-07, 03:17 PM	Ranged Weapon Mastery requires a +8 BAB. I'd switch Ranger 2 with Fighter 1, lets you raise skill points a little faster. I'd probably try to fit Power Attack in there - you're not going to have a lot of hit points, but nor will you really miss when you do need to swing in melee. At which point, having Power Attack will likely save your life. Thanks. I swapped Weapon Mastery with Woodland Archer. I'm fairly sure I've got those Feats in the right order now. Anyone think I should be getting Manyshot and IRS earlier? Good point on the Ranger 2/Fighter 1. I wasn't entirely sure about Rapid before Precise anyway (and could still take Rapid for that level and Retrain if I decide it's a big deal). Power Attack is definitely the way I'm leaning on the Fighter2 Feat.
Japangirl 03-01-07, 04:48 PM	10 Con is not good enough, because like it or not you will get hit and you will go down. An archer of my acquaintance has a 14 Con and Improved Toughness, tries to stay out of melee combat at all costs, and still has been hit and dropped multiple times. Things pop out of the walls, the floor, from the sky, and drop nasty AOEs on you that you can't evade. 14 Con is an absolute minimum buy, you are an elf so the 12 Con is barely acceptable. You should still try very hard to get an Amulet of Con as soon as possible.
cetiken 03-01-07, 06:51 PM	I play an archer, and watched the archer that Japangirl is refering to get dropped when a flying superiour invised wizard decided that he was the biggest threat. Those Maximized Empowered Orb of Fire spells hurt when you're flat footed. On a side note, I don't think your ranger levels do anything but make you wait longer for Greater Weapons Spec. Ranger is good for the skills, spells (which you won't get) and bonus feets (which you're not making great use of). In my mind a military oriented PC needs none of the skills, so why not pure fighter for the win?
Eric Anondson 03-01-07, 08:02 PM	I play an archer, and watched the archer that Japangirl is refering to get dropped when a flying superiour invised wizard decided that he was the biggest threat.Flying, superior invisible, forcecaging sorcerers give me nightmares. :surrender
lunarfish 03-01-07, 08:17 PM	Flying, superior invisible, forcecaging sorcerers give me nightmares. :surrender Especially when you have no characters at the table capable of SEEING said flying, superiorly invisible sorcerers tossing forcecage because he has no reason to worry over the 1,500 gp/casting material component. Gotta get that jab in there. Sorry to sidetrack the thread... back on topic now... I'm going to lean towards agreeing with Cetiken. Your character is a soldier - he wants to kill the enemies of (insert nation/religious entity here). He's not out for spot/listen, tracking, etc. Plus, it gets you Precise Shot at 1st level - which is nice, if not terribly important. It gets those three intro mods done with quickly and as painlessly as possible, in any case. Also, it accelerates your GWSpec and GWFocus - two feats that are good for every archer.
boogahwoof 03-01-07, 08:19 PM	Ill probly get laughed at for this, but we have a clearic archer that just hit 9th, he took the smite spell out of the players handbook II. He uses a bow and is a cleric of st cuthbert (srt and destruction domains). So he can use that smite once a day, but he has been loving dumping a inflict into his arrows a few times a day since he isnt a healing cleric anyway. Just a thought though.
Timlagor 03-01-07, 09:54 PM	I'm willing to risk the HP issue though Amulet of Health is certainly on the shopping list. I still need to decide if I'm going for the Belt of Giant Strength or not... You'd go with something more like this then? Would you take Woodland Archer or IRS first? 1 Fighter Point Blank Precise 2 Fighter Rapid Shot 3 Fighter Weapon Focus 4 Fighter Weapon Specialisation 5 Fighter - 6 Fighter Manyshot Improved Rapid Shot 7 Fighter - 8 Fighter Weapon Mastery 9 Fighter Woodland Archer - 10 Fighter Greater Weapon Focus 11 Fighter - 12 Fighter Greater Weapon Specialisation Improved Precise Shot 13 ??? - 14 ??? 15 ??? ??? - Occult Slayer 3 would certainly improve the defences a lot at the end but I've lost my empty slot (by moving things up) I do like the Ranger skills (16 extra ranks in a build that otherwise only has 18 ...and 18 not very useful ones at that) and Wand use but there's no denying the benefits of earlier Specialisation (and other Feats). Ranger 1 gets 12 of the ranks though and brings Improved Precise forward a level at the cost of GSpec... Ranger was also giving me 3 points of Fortitude and Reflex
Timlagor 03-01-07, 09:56 PM	No one mentioned Penetrating Shot! (probably not worth it though)
lunarfish 03-01-07, 11:42 PM	No one mentioned Penetrating Shot! (probably not worth it though) Guess why nobody mentioned Penetrating Shot (hint: you already said it)! I'd actually only take four levels of fighter. From there I'd take one level of Barbarian, one level of Hexblade (hexblade could be first in the build), and then five levels of Occult Slayer. Alternatively, drop the Occult Slayer, replace with Wildrunner 10. But that's my personal preference, and it's by no means the only way to go with an archer - it's just two potential archery paths. You can actually do both - something along the lines of Fgt4/Barb1/Wildrunner2/Hxb1/OS5/Wildrunner2. Like I said above, none of these are "optimized", or even particularly well thought out. Just two ideas using the most common archery PrC's, Occult Slayer and Wildrunner. I've never thought about a straight fighter with archery feats, but I would guess you're right where you should be with the build (either dipping ranger or else Fgt12/x3). ***EDIT***Please note that none of the above are even close to optimized, thought out, or plotted on any kind of realistic progression. I've been awake for 19 hours, and I"m tossing out ideas for those that are vastly better at optimization to run with. I'll get back to you after some sleep.
King Kashue 03-02-07, 01:05 AM	* 2 Ranger levels delay Feats but grant Track, wand use, Save boost and nice class skills for retraining into; probably keep Spot maxed Class skills for retraining into? You'll only have more than 1 point per level for your first two levels (you would have zero if you could :D)... If you're maxing spot, you'll have a max of 5 ranks of survival (and a whopping -1 Wis modifier), so your track will be middling at best, useless at worst (at least you can roll though). Not that it's a big deal if you want a combat cannon, but you shouldn't consider the track feat or class skills to be big plusses in the "for column", since you won't have the points to actually do anything with them. And to echo others, 10 con is too low, you'll get toasted and eaten...
copper_wyrmling 03-02-07, 01:17 AM	I play an archer, and watched the archer that Japangirl is refering to get dropped when a flying superiour invised wizard decided that he was the biggest threat. Those Maximized Empowered Orb of Fire spells hurt when you're flat footed. It was funny on our table: the two people he zapped first were both immune to fire :) *hugs Energy Immunity* I honestly think people overrate Con, because they see high-Con characters still end up in danger of dying, and they think, "Oh, if their Con was 2 points lower, they would have died". In reality, it doesn't work like that: you just shift your play style to compensate for your character's strengths and weaknesses. My (human) sorcerer had Con 12, d4 hit dice and non-favored fort save for eleven levels, and did just fine - I don't think she's even run out of temporary hitpoints in any recent mods. I know it's a cliche, but sometimes a good offence really is the best defence.
Timlagor 03-02-07, 08:35 AM	The Track isn't a big deal since I can really only Assist on most things..though if there's time to take 20 it might be enough to follow important tracks. I only get 1 skill per level but Ranger makes that 1 rank of Spot rather than Jump or Climb which aren't in my plan. Lunarfish: Barbarian +Extra Rage is certainly a solid option in LG though the modules with more than 3 fights in a day tend to be the tough ones so it isn't necessarily good to rely on. Simply not playing specials with such a character would solve that one (barring occasional 2rounders) I suppose. It also doesn't fit this particular character but someone else could certainly use it. For straight archery prowess I definitely think you have to have a lot of Fighter levels now. You can certainly make a decent archer without but fo sheer damage potential... I'm a big proponent of 6-points-spent-on-Constitution but if anyone can get away without it it's an Archer. I actually consider the Will Save to be a much bigger weakness. There seems to be something of a consensue that with or without Ranger levels I've built just about the best (glass) cannon. Does anyone have any thoughts on equipment? Specifically, is it feasible to get a +4 Belt before investing heavily in the bow? Obvious wishlist: Bow of Ultimate DOOM Vest of Resistance Boots of Speed Gloves of Dex (fortunate striking?) Mithral Shirt PoPs for Prot Evil Bracers? Cloak? (mountebank?) Head? (hat of disguise?) Buckler (I can't even remember what I thought about this one now let alone what everyone else thought)
Timlagor 03-02-07, 08:38 AM	If I went with Fighter 12/OS3, would it make sense to retrain the Woodland Archer into Improved Initiative? Are there actually any other feats I want looking ahead to the high level campaign? (Iron Will is actually looking about the best I can see)
cetiken 03-02-07, 03:26 PM	I'm a big proponent of 6-points-spent-on-Constitution but if anyone can get away without it it's an Archer. I actually consider the Will Save to be a much bigger weakness. There seems to be something of a consensue that with or without Ranger levels I've built just about the best (glass) cannon. Does anyone have any thoughts on equipment? Specifically, is it feasible to get a +4 Belt before investing heavily in the bow? Those weak will saves definately hurt a lot. Especially in situations where they charm you and make you murder your own party which is doubly bad when you weren't damaging the thingy anyway. Personally I've gone the ranger route and for equipment I focused entirely on my bow to the point that I still haven't bought a magic armor. I'm using a +wis amulet to enable better spellcasting (only 6 ranger levels into horizon walker and started with 10 wis) I bought almost nothing else until I could afford to get my +1 bow enchanted with Holy. I have to say that it was worth it though. Now I'm running around buying misc gear like Vest of Resistance +2 etc to shore up my weaknesses. YMMV though, It'd probably be possible to get a belt if you were willing to just go for an Icy (or other +1 enchant). Remember though, your bow is your life and without it your just a really bad fighter, so don't go near the City of Greyhawk because the Circle has decided to hate on you there.
cetiken 03-02-07, 03:27 PM	If I went with Fighter 12/OS3, would it make sense to retrain the Woodland Archer into Improved Initiative? Are there actually any other feats I want looking ahead to the high level campaign? (Iron Will is actually looking about the best I can see) I'm a fan of Improved Toughness at highter levels.
Japangirl 03-02-07, 05:44 PM	I honestly think people overrate Con, because they see high-Con characters still end up in danger of dying, and they think, "Oh, if their Con was 2 points lower, they would have died". In reality, it doesn't work like that: you just shift your play style to compensate for your character's strengths and weaknesses. My (human) sorcerer had Con 12, d4 hit dice and non-favored fort save for eleven levels, and did just fine - I don't think she's even run out of temporary hitpoints in any recent mods. I know it's a cliche, but sometimes a good offence really is the best defence. Sure, offense is wonderful. I have a rogue and a wizard, both generally offensive classes with low hit dice though also lots of utility, and a bard, who is obviously a buffer/debuffer mostly in combats. Shifting play style doesn't save you from the 18d6+18, Reflex 35 for half AOE. It doesn't save you from the Horrid Wilting or the Empowered Fireball or the Cone of Cold. If you know it's coming, you can reposition, but often it's a surprise round thing before you even have a chance to move out of the way. Archers do lots of damage and thus get targetted a lot, and there are plenty of things that can get to the back of the party by flying or being incorporeal or whatever. Also remember that Con goes to Fort saves. Fort save or die spells are pretty common at higher levels, so the +2 from having a 14 Con is a huge benefit over just having more hit points. Disintegrate, Implosion, Massive Damage from hits, crits, and various spells, poisons, all sorts of various nasties.
King Kashue 03-02-07, 07:32 PM	The Track isn't a big deal since I can really only Assist on most things..though if there's time to take 20 it might be enough to follow important tracks. I only get 1 skill per level but Ranger makes that 1 rank of Spot rather than Jump or Climb which aren't in my plan. Actually, now that you mention it, you won't be able to max spot. Even though your max rank is as a class skill, you're still spending cross class on every fighter level (which is most of your levels)... That means .5 rank per level, since you've only got one skill point (because your character is stupider than most familiars :D)...
lunarfish 03-02-07, 09:32 PM	In fact, I believe he is dumber than the familiar of a first level wizard, is he not? Or at least he is no smarter than one. Equipment - Vest of Resistance +5. That's your primary target, since you really have three bad saves (10 con does NOT help your Fort, and you have a low progression in the other two). Beyond that, your magical bow and your Gloves of Dexterity are 2 and 3 on the list, respectively. I would personally not go for the strength item. I don't like the idea of delaying your magical enchantments on the bow to get an additional +2 to strength, especially at 16k. That same 16k only needs 2k more to get a +1 Holy Longbow - which does MORE damage. Otherwise, a +1 Merciful *insert element here* Longbow works exactly the same at the same price - PLUS you get to question the baddies after they die (or the wizard can Coupe de Grace with a Vampiric Touch! Yay!). Either way, these are "better" options for an archer than the +2 str. Plus, you can do it as soon as you get access/can afford it, instead of having to put of a chance to add a damage die to your bow because you only have it at Str +5 and you're going to wait for your Belt of Giant Strength and your Str +7 longbow.
Southernskies 03-02-07, 09:41 PM	Most good archers carry 2 bows anyway. A fully enhanced primary weapon to use their high Str including bull's strength/stat boosters and a cheap +1 or mw str bow to use in an anti-magic/debuff situation. Sunder and Disarm make a real mess of an archer unless you have that backup weapon handy.
Timlagor 03-02-07, 09:53 PM	You can keep Spot maxed by using Retraining (didn't I say that?) rather than cross-class buying. If I waited 'til 8th level (ouch!) I could get a +8 Strength bow instead... I take your point about the alternatives though: I won't aim for the Belt; just get it if I lose my first bow for some reason. I'm inclining towards Fighter12/OS3 at present with Woodland Archer being dropped for Improved Init as Precise Shot comes online (OS munches 14/18 skill points).
lunarfish 03-02-07, 11:49 PM	I'm confused on the +8 str bow. Are you planning NOT to put your bumps into dexterity? I assumed that you'd be leaving the strength at 20, instead of bumping it up (or are you factoring in a +6 belt?)
solbergb 03-03-07, 12:03 AM	10 Con is not good enough, because like it or not you will get hit and you will go down. An archer of my acquaintance has a 14 Con and Improved Toughness, tries to stay out of melee combat at all costs, and still has been hit and dropped multiple times. Things pop out of the walls, the floor, from the sky, and drop nasty AOEs on you that you can't evade. 14 Con is an absolute minimum buy, you are an elf so the 12 Con is barely acceptable. You should still try very hard to get an Amulet of Con as soon as possible. I play a 10 con archer with mostly d8 hit dice and like 19 AC. If he's dropping like flies it is more likely that he's not doing enough to spot the other guys before they spot him. Skills can to some extent sub for lower constitution. Not that this will help this design with all those fighter levels, but the d10 hit dice more or less make him a 12 con ranger, which generally is an iconic elf ranger. So I don't really see the problem. Of course I also play a 14 con monk who has had nothing but 14 dex (no wis bonus), monk bumps to AC and rarely mage armor to level 13, and I also play a 12 armor class level 11 sorceress and an 11 AC barb/druid...so what works for me may not work for everybody.
Timlagor 03-03-07, 07:31 AM	I'm confused on the +8 str bow. Are you planning NOT to put your bumps into dexterity? I assumed that you'd be leaving the strength at 20, instead of bumping it up (or are you factoring in a +6 belt?) If I was going for the Belt I would also put my bumps into Strength.
lunarfish 03-04-07, 12:58 AM	OK. I was assuming that your bumps would go into dex. Yet another reason why I don't play archers - They have two different stats for hitting it and killing it good and dead. Confuses the poor half-orc.
Mommy was an Orc 03-04-07, 01:21 AM	OK. I was assuming that your bumps would go into dex. Yet another reason why I don't play archers - They have two different stats for hitting it and killing it good and dead. Confuses the poor half-orc. It isn't as bad as it seems - while there's two different stats, the reasons you take a penalty to hit are pretty steady. You're not, as an example, putting all your BAB into Power Attack.
lunarfish 03-04-07, 03:37 AM	MwaO, I completely understand - I'm speaking from the point of view of a guy who plays a lot of half-orcs. Such use of brain cells is beyond 3/5 of my PCs.
cetiken 03-04-07, 10:30 AM	Most good archers carry 2 bows anyway. A fully enhanced primary weapon to use their high Str including bull's strength/stat boosters and a cheap +1 or mw str bow to use in an anti-magic/debuff situation. Sunder and Disarm make a real mess of an archer unless you have that backup weapon handy. Not most of the archers I know. Sunder isn't a tactic that most DMs will take unless written into the mod. And if disarmed, just spend an action to pick it up. Though a lot of us are talking about getting spare bows for things like elementals. Bane Elemental would pretty much make up for the DR x/- of most elementals on a secondary bow. Especially since the Holy probably isn't adding damage anyway.
Timlagor 03-05-07, 09:59 PM	Improved Critical. I knew I'd missed a useful Feat :) How good is it? (looks nice to me with that x3) ..I'm pretty sure there's no 'Keen' equivalent...?