| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| CrystalBlue12-20-06, 11:13 AM | I've heard this arguement all the time, and I kinda hate it. But I constatly hear people talk about Dragon D only being there for the Str and Natural Armor bonus. Is there ANY other way to do it? The way I want to go is Brd/Fgt, specializing in tripping and charisma. I wouldn't be a damage dealer much, but I wanted to go the tripping route with a whip. Hence the level of Brd. Plus, I'd take Fgt for the feats at 1st and 2nd level, then continue as Brd till I'm level 6, then go Dragon D...because I want to be a copper dragon, gosh darn it! Problem is, there's not much more in Dragon D that lends itself to diplomacy. I'd be burning all my points into that, basically. So, I just want to know if this is a good idea. And also, I want some input on your Dragon D ideas that DON'T INVOLVE A 42 STR! Thank you. ^.^ (P.S. I'm a Highfolk character and, yes, I understand I'm gonna have a problem with a Dragon D. That's kinda the point of this character. He's a mischief maker...in all the wrong ways. X3) |
| UMiskatonic12-20-06, 01:21 PM | Dragon Disciple is a melee class. It's pretty much full BAB (once you figure in the bonuses from STR), good hit points, and perks that aid melee types, like natural armor, natural weapons, etc. So, no. There is no way to build a dragon disciple that isn't going to be best suited as a melee type. There is no way to build a dragon disciple that is a primary spellcaster. The best LG way to do that is with a sorceror and a lot of draconic heritage feats. That said, there are plenty of D. Disciple builds. Paladin 4/Sorceror 1/Dragon Disciple 10 is a pretty good build, as is Ftr 4/Sor 1/DD 10. Hexblade 5 fits right in as well. Dragon Disciple is a nice cap for an assassin, it gives you a very Mortal Kombat type of assassin (too bad players can't be evil) One level of warmage and practiced spellcaster would also allow for 3d4+3+int with a magic missile, or 3d8 + INT with a lesser orb. If you want to build a bard/ftr/ddisc who sings and whips people, then go right ahead. We play the game to have fun. However, you won't be the worlds most effective character. In fact, I think you'll be less effective than a either a bard or fighter of your level. That could mean a lot less fun. If you're looking for advice, I'm happy to offer it. If you're looking for affirmation that this is the greatest build ever, I can't really say that. However, a level of marshal would be a great asset for a high charisma trip build. There's a trip aura, and marshals get a good skill list, and skill focus diplomacy, and so on. |
| DuctShuiTengu12-20-06, 02:16 PM | It's possible to make a Dragon Disciple that doesn't focus on melee. By the same token, it's possible to make a Wizard who runs around in fullplate swinging a greatsword. Or a ranger who focuses on spellcasting. Or a Fighter who never picks up a weapon or wears armor. Which is to say that while there's nothing preventing you from doing it, you're more or less intentionally avoiding the class's strongpoints. |
| CrystalBlue12-20-06, 02:33 PM | No, I'm not saying it's a great build. I know it's not. I just understand that you can't have a concept character AND be effective in LG. I learned that during year three. *shivers* I was just hoping, beyond all types of hope, that there was a small niche in Dragon D for people like me. It just seems like a very focused concept. I would have liked to see a PrC like Dragon D that gave for spell casting or something like that. Plus, I understand the Marshal, but my view of marshal's been soured. It seems like everywhere I go now, you meet people that take one or two levels of marshal all the time. It's a damn good class...but it seems everyone has one now... Ok, if I can't be a diplo-monkey with Dragon D...is there some other build I can work it with? Something that has more options then just smacking things with a huge weapon? I've seen too many Bar/DD's out there. |
| gomeztoo12-20-06, 04:40 PM | Ok, if I can't be a diplo-monkey with Dragon D...is there some other build I can work it with? Something that has more options then just smacking things with a huge weapon? I've seen too many Bar/DD's out there. You can be a DD Diplo monkey. Diplomacy is a class skill. Language is a class kill. You need a positive Cha to become a DD. So a DD can be a great smooth talker. They are not great spellcasters though. My DD is a melee char - a supportive fighter. She is not a big STR power attacker though. Her strength is 18 (at DD 4), and while she can rage, power attack is not a good feat since bab is not that high (note that less bab also means less attacks). She is interesting not because she is good at doing damage, but at taking it, providing support (such as flanking), and occasionally toss in a spell that is needed. Her two sorcerer spells are swift spells that let her use any weapon she likes (Master's Touch - so she fights with exotic weapons), and occasionally do some extra damage (Critical Strike). She is not that good at Diplomacy btw - but that was choice, a DD could easily be a good Diplomacy char (though it helps to give a good Int and take a human as a base). |
| copper_wyrmling12-20-06, 05:56 PM | You can be a DD Diplo monkey. Diplomacy is a class skill. Language is a class kill. You need a positive Cha to become a DD. So a DD can be a great smooth talker. They are not great spellcasters though. My DD is a melee char - a supportive fighter. She is not a big STR power attacker though. Her strength is 18 (at DD 4), and while she can rage, power attack is not a good feat since bab is not that high (note that less bab also means less attacks). She is interesting not because she is good at doing damage, but at taking it, providing support (such as flanking), and occasionally toss in a spell that is needed. Her two sorcerer spells are swift spells that let her use any weapon she likes (Master's Touch - so she fights with exotic weapons), and occasionally do some extra damage (Critical Strike). She is not that good at Diplomacy btw - but that was choice, a DD could easily be a good Diplomacy char (though it helps to give a good Int and take a human as a base). Just in case anyone is getting the wrong idea, gomeztoo's character is NOT one of the useless mutt builds that do a little of everything and nothing well (she's a mutt, yes, but a very useful mutt :) ) She may not do the same damage as a two-handed power-attacker built to dish out the pain, but she does enough to provide a meaningful contribution and draw the enemies' attention, and her HP and saves are high enough to make that a very good thing for the party. (At least except when the GM crits on a Harm spell... I still can't quite believe my rolls vs Nesalia in that game...) She's also got some very useful out-of-combat skills. If you wanted to play a more spellcasterish draconic type, then as someone else mentioned, there's a long Draconic Heritage feat tree in Complete Arcane for sorcerers. That wouldn't let you max diplomacy, though, unfortunately. For the bard and whip route, three levels of warchanter might be helpful, and Inspire Recklessness is such a good ability that most parties would be happy to have you around just for that. If you could bring yourself to take a marshal level, then bard / marshal / warchanters are just *amazing* buffers, and you'd still have room for seven levels of DD, and then the Strength boosts and diplomacy-as-a-class-skill would help with your tripping and diplomacy. And I understand wanting to have a mischief-maker PC, I was quite pleased when my sweet little Chaotic Good Wild Mage managed to get herself reported for casting banned spells in her first *ever* Bissel module (by another PC! They warned her not to cast necromancy spells in front of NPCs, but nobody realized that there was a Nightwatch agent in the party...) |
| UMiskatonic12-20-06, 11:24 PM | I'm sorry. I'd really like to help you, but I only have a vague idea of what you want. Here's what I hear you saying: I want to be a dragon disciple I don't want to be one of 'those' dragon disciples I want to have good diplomacy I want to trip people I want to be an effective character I don't want to be a marshal I don't want to be a melee brute I like whips a lot Please help me take this apart. From where I'm at, you are trying to build a spellcaster who trips people? And you would like to have a high diplomacy? It would help if you could prioritize those for me. How would you rank spellcasting, melee, people skills? |
| Morgen12-21-06, 12:07 AM | I'd recommend a level of Warmage in the Paladin/Dragon Diciple build. No reason you can't do a tripper with that build though, just take the right feats and save your smiting for when your opponents are on thier backs. |
| CrystalBlue12-21-06, 08:15 AM | It's not that I want to be a spell caster. I'd only be taking the bard levels for the Diplomacy, bardic music, and the skill points. I don't plan on ever casting any meaningful spells. What I DO plan on doing is making a character I can like and one that won't be laughed off of a table. <rant> I get sick of seeing straight damage-dealers all over LG, because they break the damn mods. >.< I played a tough Iuzian mod with my cleric at APL 12. We were severly under level, just barely at 10. And we had a level 8 fighter mutt. And he WALKED OVER THE MOD! Three attacks each round, without haste, doing an adverage of 35 points of damage...when not power attacking or using a holy weapon. He cake-walked two templated Beholders by him self in two rounds, all the time making Will saves that my cleric would think are insane. This is why I'm not making a damage-dealing Dragon Diciple. I want to make one that's effective and can be fun to play, not a completely broken character to every encounter that my metaregion throws at me. I'm tired of needing to make super-awesome-uber builds just to walk over Highfolk and Shieldlands. I want something fun to play. </rant> So...I guess I could narrow it down a bit for you. I don't want to be a spell caster. I got one of those. I want Dragon Diciple for the flavor. I want to have wings, a tail, claws, and copper scales. That's the ONLY REASON I want DD. That said, I don't want this character to die when he tries for his special mission to get DD, so I do need to be able to survive (damn Highfolk and their solo special missions...). I want an effective character that won't walk over tables without rolling dice. I want to be useful, but not broken. That's what I'm looking for in a DD build. (And the other reason I haven't taken Marshal is because I have neglected to actually GET the Minitures Handbook) |
| gomeztoo12-21-06, 09:24 AM | Oh, you want to be a copper? CG then? Well, you have to take into account that DD is still a mostly melee-based caharcetr, though as Iw rote you can be the supporting cast. Flanking, aiding another is very sueful, especially with the near-unhittable AC critters. Combine with singing, some support spells and some extra equip, such as tanglefoot bags etc. A class combo might be bard and ranger, i.e. Brd3/Rgr2 before going to DD. Brd gives you skills, i.e. languages, diplomacy etc., Rgr gives you Track, combat styes, bab progression and some access to heal/nature skills. You can then build to a type of nature warrior with a close association to dragons/reptilians, a bard with a love for the wild. You can also combine it with barbarian, becoming a skald (from the north). My chars barbaric nature points to the wild beast inside her, yearning to come out. If youw nat to eb a trickster, you could also wait a month or so to see if the beguiler becomes core, and roll with that. Just take note that you when you are not a spellcaster, you are expected to contribute to combat by either melee or ranged weapons, so you should build on one of those. |
| UMiskatonic12-21-06, 10:08 AM | You know, a preview of Marshal is available on the wizards site. Right now. Type Marshal into thier search box, and you'll be all set. You might find that paladin/marshal works very well for you. |
| LachlarlanIII12-21-06, 02:45 PM | I'd actually suggest going Hex4/Msh1. You'll have all the feats necessary to be a Int fighter (Combat Exp., Imp. Trip, Imp. Disarm) and with the Art of War marshall aura, you'll have huge bonuses. |
| LachlarlanIII12-21-06, 02:51 PM | You know, a preview of Marshal is available on the wizards site. Right now. Type Marshal into thier search box, and you'll be all set. You might find that paladin/marshal works very well for you. Except paladins don't spontaneously cast arcane spells. |
| UMiskatonic12-21-06, 04:10 PM | Yes, yes, of course it would have to be paladin/marshal/dragon disciple with a level of sorceror or bard or warmage thrown in. Crystal Blue, it's a fine idea to have a dragon disciple, wings and all, shining like gold in the sun. However, if all you do is shine, people will avoid you like the plague. Having good diplomatic skills is nice, and its a bonus if you can deal with NPCs. But D&D involves a lot of monster fighting. What do you see yourself doing then? |
| jstorrie12-21-06, 07:43 PM | DISSENTING OPINION: You could make something cool with an Intellectual dragon disciple. This lets you buy lots of face skills from the nice Dragon Disciple skill list, letting you do the Diplo/people-talker business. Something like: Human 1 Swashbuckler WFinesse, Dodge 2 Swashbuckler 3 Swashbuckler Mobility 4 Warmage 5 Warmage 6 Warmage Spring Attack 7 Warmage 8 Dragon Disciple 9 Dragon Disciple Multiattack 10 Dragon Disciple 11 Dragon Disciple 12 Dragon Disciple Elusive Target 13 Dragon Disciple 14 Dragon Disciple 15 Dragon Disciple what-evvvver Reorder the levels depending on when you get access to Blood Wind (SC) - take Warmage 3 and use Advanced Learning to pick it up as soon as you have access, as it's pretty sick/hilarious for a Dragon Disciple. Blades of Fire is a dependable second-level spell too, for full-attacking. Your spellcaster dip makes you a little less tough than a front-liner in the mid-levels, so just Blood Wind away from behind the front lines and be a major annoyance. You're using Insightful Strike with Finessed natural attacks, so don't sweat a low Strength. You can even, if you wish, waste feats on whip proficiency and Improved Disarm if you need them so badly (but you don't, honestly, since you have teleportty-claws.) |
| CrystalBlue12-22-06, 11:42 AM | Alright. Here's a (VERY) loose idea of what I want to do, based on everyone's suggestions (thanks, by the way). Grey Elf Str:10 Dex: 16 Con: 12 Int: 16 Wis: 8 Cha: 14 Brd 1 - Combat Expertise Rng 1 - Prefered (construct) Swa 1 - Weapon Finesse, Dodge Rng 2 - Two Weapon Fighting Brd 2 - Nothing Swa 2 - Mobility Swa 3 - Insightful Strike DD The Rest I am losing a feat...and really, I don't know if I want the dodge and mobility...it'll keep me alive longer, that's for sure. Now, the reason's I'm doing all this... Combat Expertise: Because I want to stand up to things I really shouldn't at lower levels. 2 Levels of Bard: The Skill points, really. I'm a skill horder. Anything else to tweak it? I don't want Warmage, because I'm only going to be casting small spells, if anything. And I don't even know about the Insightful Strike, as I don't really want to be doing damage that much. |
| jstorrie12-22-06, 06:54 PM | If you're not dealing damage, you're not going to be contributing, as there isn't much else for you to be doing during combat (unless you go for Improved Trip, and even then, you can't just only trip.) You have to be able to deal with diverse types of encounters, not just social ones. Bard over Warmage is a plausible choice but not a great one. You won't particularly need the Bard skill points to rule at social encounters, and the Bard spell list will not help you as much in combat as having Blood Wind would. |
| CrystalBlue12-24-06, 11:01 AM | But that's an IF I get Blood Wind. Not only that, but at higher levels, if I'm only dipping into a spell-caster level, it won't really matter what I take. Low spell casting at APL 10+ doesn't matter at all. At least, in the IUZ and Core's I've played. Magic missles for a whole 9 pointes of damage just prove to **** off a monster and get me killed. At least with bard, I can inspire courage and add +2 to damage and attacks. With Warmage, without precise shot, all I got is Magic Missle, and that's not going to churn out the damage I should be doing. I might as well just go full Warmage then. And I'm not going to base an entire build on a spell I 'might' get. |
| jstorrie12-24-06, 02:16 PM | It's exceptionally likely that by the time you get to second level Warmage spellcasting, you will have a 'choose an unrestricted spell from the Spell Compendium: you now have access to it' type of favour. With Warmage you don't take magic missiles, you take Blades of Fire for your melee attacks. |
| Japangirl12-25-06, 12:19 AM | Maybe, maybe not. All the "any limited spell" AR favors are being errataed to have a list of spells you got access to, and no more are going to be allowed. So sayith Britt, at least to my knowledge. |
| CrystalBlue12-27-06, 08:35 AM | Yeah...finding it is going to be tough. And, I don't know if I want to take 4 levels of Warmage just for one spell that may not even work in combat like I want it to. Thanks, though, for the advice. I guess I just have to find the right balance here to make it useful. I know none of you think it's possible, but I'm going to try anyways. It's these little futile resistances that make me me. ^.^ |
| Reylance12-27-06, 02:15 PM | You definitely have conflicting desires for this character. You can focus on the Charisma by making use of three classes that benefit from that stat. Consider NG -> LG Human S 14 D 10 C 14 I 14 W 8 C 15 Stat bumps to Charisma 1. Brd1 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2. Pal1 (Smite) 3. Pal2 Devoted Performer (Divine Grace, Lay On Hands) 4. Brd2 5. Mar1 Skill Focus: Diplomacy (Art of War) 6. Dragon Disciple Dragon Disciple thereon You can take the roles of face, support, combat control, and cork. You will have four songs a day, and will soon be able to boost them all with Inspirational Boost. Take the feat to cast in medium armor, and you can wear mithral full plate. |
| Sieylianna12-28-06, 08:28 AM | 1. Brd1 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2. Pal1 (Smite) 3. Pal2 Devoted Performer (Divine Grace, Lay On Hands) 4. Brd2 5. Mar1 Skill Focus: Diplomacy (Art of War) 6. Dragon Disciple Dragon Disciple thereon Bards can not be lawful and paladins must be lawful good. If you showed up at a table with this build I would ridicule you mercilessly for your alignment shifts. You do realize that you're going to lose all your paladin abilities at 4th level? As far as the choose any limited spell favors go, I haven't seen one since year 4. Access to limited spells has been scarce this year. Ed |
| gomeztoo12-28-06, 08:52 AM | Devoted Performer is a feat that assumes you are a paladin/bard (so at least changed alignment once - from NG to LG), and thereafter stay LG AND advance as bard. |
| CrystalBlue12-28-06, 09:30 AM | I actually like that idea...a paladin/bard/dragon diciple...now THAT'S a build I can get behind. I could play a paladin of Bahamut...mmmm...yummy. ^.^ But the question is, do I even need Devoted Performer? Couldn't I just go bard for two levels, then paladin after I change alignment? I mean, do I lose my bard abilities when I become lawful? Also, I don't know about the marshal level. It would be nice, though...but I'd be taking another dip in BAB if I do that. It's a nice idea, though...I'll play with it for a bit. Thank you. ^.^ |
| gomeztoo12-28-06, 09:55 AM | You don't have to take the feat, but it also stacks paladin/bard levels for (iirc) nr of uses of bardic song and smite (not 100% sure though). And if you don't mind associating with chromatics and nutty priests of Aasterinian, come to Verbobonc :) Note that copper is CG... you'd have to play a gold. Also, I think you need certain requirements to worship a draconic deity (i.e. draconic heritage feat), so it would be easier to go for a 'cause'. |
| CrystalBlue12-28-06, 10:00 AM | Well, I thought about that. But under Dragon Diciple, they never said anything about aligning yourself with the dragon. Hey, I've seen LG characters as DD's of red dragons. That should be illegal 5 ways from sunday, but they allow it. So I don't think it's a problem. And about the draconic worshiping, Bahamut has human worshipers as other, so it's legal. Otherwise, his worshipers would be very few and far between. |
| LachlarlanIII12-28-06, 10:05 AM | The LGCS has specific rules for Dragon Disciples. The color of dragon you can choose depends on your alignment. Red Dragon Disciples and other chromatic colors are considered limited. |
| gomeztoo12-28-06, 10:15 AM | Oh yeah, Bahamut was an exception. I got confused as my PC worships Aasterinian. The alignment of the dragon IS import though. You need to have the proper alignment as listed in the LGCS 3 levels before taking Dragon Disicple. You can't ever change alignment after that (unless forced to by magic or such). |
| Reylance12-28-06, 10:23 AM | Bards can not be lawful and paladins must be lawful good. If you showed up at a table with this build I would ridicule you mercilessly for your alignment shifts. You do realize that you're going to lose all your paladin abilities at 4th level? Ed As Pierre pointed out, the build has Devoted Performer, which is designed to be a bard/paladin combination, and allows the taking of bard levels while Lawful Good. You shouldn't criticize a build unless you're sure you understand all the rules items involved. |
| Reylance12-28-06, 10:26 AM | I actually like that idea...a paladin/bard/dragon diciple...now THAT'S a build I can get behind. I could play a paladin of Bahamut...mmmm...yummy. ^.^ But the question is, do I even need Devoted Performer? Couldn't I just go bard for two levels, then paladin after I change alignment? I mean, do I lose my bard abilities when I become lawful? Also, I don't know about the marshal level. It would be nice, though...but I'd be taking another dip in BAB if I do that. It's a nice idea, though...I'll play with it for a bit. Thank you. ^.^ You can switch to paladin after two levels of bard, and you won't lose your bardic abilities, but you would only get two songs per day. Devoted Performer gives you two extra songs per day, although you could use Extra Music if you desire. |
| CrystalBlue12-28-06, 10:39 AM | Hmmm...that does put a damper on things. *whimpers* Hmmm...I guess it wouldn't hurt to be a gold DD...I just like coppers cause they're so naughty. ^.^ Now, do I take devoted or not? I probobly should, if I don't go all the way with Dragon Diciple. I'm still juggling around ideas. Hmmm... |
| UMiskatonic12-28-06, 12:37 PM | Bard/paladin is a solid build. I'd recommend the detect magic as a bard spell, with detect evil and eventual dragon disciple senses, you'll be very alert. Good spot and listen would also be solid. You can add dragon disciple spells to either paladin or bard if I remember correctly. With good bard defensive spells, you can be quite the tank, and still you'll have great people skills. Bardic knowledge is another handy way to contribute, it's always handy. |
| CrystalBlue12-28-06, 12:55 PM | Well, the question then becomes, should I be taking the marshel or not? I mean, I do like the idea of the auras, but is it worth the dip in BAB I'm going to have? Also, how long should I wait until DD? Should I get it when I can, or wait a little bit? |
| LachlarlanIII12-28-06, 12:59 PM | Well, the question then becomes, should I be taking the marshel or not? I mean, I do like the idea of the auras, but is it worth the dip in BAB I'm going to have? Also, how long should I wait until DD? Should I get it when I can, or wait a little bit? If you intend to be a trip/disarm specialist, one level of marshal will greatly offset the BAB dip. While you give up one BAB, with the Art of War aura, you'll be gaining a +6 or more bonus to all trip/disarm attempts you make. Assuming that you pump Cha at every opportunity. I would get DD asap. Your 6th level should be DD as the Str bumps will make you better at what you intend to to most (tripping and disarming). |
| LachlarlanIII12-28-06, 01:22 PM | 1. Brd1 Combat Expertise, Improved Trip 2. Pal1 (Smite) 3. Pal2 Devoted Performer (Divine Grace, Lay On Hands) 4. Brd2 This probably isn't the best order to take these classes. It would probably be better to go: Brd1 -> Brd2 -> Pal1 That way you don't lose an entire level of Bardic music/spells. |
| CrystalBlue12-28-06, 01:49 PM | Here's what I'm thinking so far with all of your help. ^.^ Human Male, Worshiper of Bahamut, NG Str: 14 Dex: 10 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 8 Cha: 16 Bard 1 - Bardic Song, Bardic Knowledge, Combat Expertice, EWP Spiked Chain Bard 2 - Bard 2/Paladin 1 - Smite Evil, Detect Evil, Devoted Performer Bard 2/Paladin 2 - Divine Grace, Lay On Hands Bard 2/Paladin 2/Marshal 1 - Art of War Bard 2/Paladin 2/Marshal 1/Dragon Diciple 1 - Improved Trip |
| LachlarlanIII12-28-06, 03:31 PM | One thing to keep in mind about a character like this, you can't trip anything 2 size categories larger than yourself. As a medium creature, you won't be able to trip anything Huge or larger unless you find a way to enlarge yourself. |
| Iswald12-28-06, 10:38 PM | This probably isn't the best order to take these classes. It would probably be better to go: Brd1 -> Brd2 -> Pal1 That way you don't lose an entire level of Bardic music/spells. I'd think bard, marshal, bard, paladin would be a better order if you're looking at spells from outside the PHB. The first few levels may be tough from having no BAB. A less optimal, though interesting, route for a lawful neutral character could be hexblade 4/cleric 1. Even if the PC's wisdom is too low to cast divine spells, using divine might or other turning feats may be enough to make up for it. They could still use wands and domain abilities. |
| LachlarlanIII12-29-06, 09:42 AM | I'd think bard, marshal, bard, paladin would be a better order if you're looking at spells from outside the PHB. The first few levels may be tough from having no BAB. A less optimal, though interesting, route for a lawful neutral character could be hexblade 4/cleric 1. Even if the PC's wisdom is too low to cast divine spells, using divine might or other turning feats may be enough to make up for it. They could still use wands and domain abilities. As soon as I posted that, I thought to myself "He probably chose that order get 3rd level access." I also suggested Hexblade 4/Marshal 1. With that build you still gain the huge bonus to saves, albeit only ones against magic. You lose Smite and Detect Evil as class abilities, but you would gain Hexblade Curse, a Familiar (for a bonus to lowest save), and Mettle (which I believe is superior) as trade offs. You won't be able to cast spells while wearing armor heavier than Light, but who really casts those wimpy low level Hexblade spells anyway? :D Biggest drawback is you must maintain a Lawful Neutral alignment. If you become Good, you lose your Hexblade abilities, and if you aren't Lawful Neutral, there aren't any other draconic options to choose. Marshal 1 is for the obvious Art of War aura that this character uses. |
| CrystalBlue12-29-06, 11:14 AM | I'ma stick with the Bard/Marshal/Paladin. I really wanted to be copper, but I guess that won't be happening. Now it's time to see if I can get my special mission and become a gold dragon diciple. Curse you Highfolk and your massive huge elemental attacks at APL 2. CURSE YOU!!! *shakes paw* |
| gomeztoo12-29-06, 04:00 PM | Why would you need a special mission? If you want to be a COPPER paladin, then yes, you need a special mission. But otherwise DD access is open. |
| CrystalBlue12-29-06, 04:52 PM | You obviously haven't ever played a DD in Highfolk. Non-registered DD's in Highfolk get killed with elementals...huge one's...that are advanced...alone...while sleeping...in the dark...with no equipment on. Sure, you COULD take a DD into Highfolk that's not registered with the region. But all judges do have to warn you ahead of time. "Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE you want to play your Dragon Diciple in Highfolk? Really? Positively sure? No backing out of it. Ok. Have fun. ^.^" The basis behind this has to do with a new story arc that's starting in year 7 and 8 and the dragons that reside around Highfolk. That's all I know at this time. Hence why I have to burn a special mission for this year to even play as one. Though, I'm not complaining...I've just heard that the special missions tend to be uber-hard. *shivers* Naughty special mod writers...*shakes paw again* Leave my paladin of Bahamut alone! |
| gomeztoo12-30-06, 02:57 PM | Can't you just go and register? That's what Nesalia would do (if I would ever get in the opportunity to play a Highfolk region). Start of adventure: Nes walks up to the scout's office, knocks on the door, and waves. "Hi, I'm Nes. I'm a copper. Can I register? please? I brought my own pencil. And cookies." Why wouldn't that work? Seems the easiest way to me... |
| Sieylianna12-30-06, 06:02 PM | Can't you just go and register? That's what Nesalia would do (if I would ever get in the opportunity to play a Highfolk region). Start of adventure: No, the special mission is required in Highfolk in order to not become bait for untiered encounters. Ed |
| Iswald12-31-06, 04:42 AM | I also suggested Hexblade 4/Marshal 1. Cleric was mainly for the turn attempts to power feats, since the PC will have a high charisma. |
| gomeztoo12-31-06, 09:48 AM | No, the special mission is required in Highfolk in order to not become bait for untiered encounters. So how does that work with visitors? If I come to Highfolk and all I have to play at an AP is my dragon disciple? What does happen when my PC, hearing dragon dsiciples need to be registered, steps up to the guard and turns herself in? Gomez |
| Sieylianna12-31-06, 01:58 PM | So how does that work with visitors? If I come to Highfolk and all I have to play at an AP is my dragon disciple? What does happen when my PC, hearing dragon dsiciples need to be registered, steps up to the guard and turns herself in? My understanding is that visitors can request and undertake the special mission in order to be "registered" in Highfolk. I've never judged a Highfolk module, so I don't know whether the untiered anti-dragon disciple encounter is written into all modules or if it's just in selected ones. Either way, I wouldn't play an unregistered dragon disciple in highfolk because you're likely to end up permanently dead with no possibility of being raised. Ed |
| Mommy was an Orc12-31-06, 02:30 PM | My understanding is that visitors can request and undertake the special mission in order to be "registered" in Highfolk. I've never judged a Highfolk module, so I don't know whether the untiered anti-dragon disciple encounter is written into all modules or if it's just in selected ones. Either way, I wouldn't play an unregistered dragon disciple in highfolk because you're likely to end up permanently dead with no possibility of being raised. Ed Yeah, but that's awfully suspect at a convention. You don't see the notice, pay a few hundred dollars to go out to Highfolk areas, and *then* find out that you can't play any of the mods you signed up for? I'm also pretty curious as to the rules mechanics that makes this work. Just because you're a Dragon Disciple, that doesn't actually make you register as being a Dragon by any spell. You pop up as being whatever your original race is unless you've taken all 10 levels of the PrC. |
| gomeztoo12-31-06, 03:09 PM | Well, my PC is very aware of her dragon heritage right now, to the point that on occasion she considers herself more dragon than elf. And you really have to know a bit from a region before you go there to play. Still, while making things a bit harder (penalties on Cha checks, etc) for certain races/classes is fine, making it deadly seems a poor choice to me. |
| Mommy was an Orc01-01-07, 11:41 AM | Well, my PC is very aware of her dragon heritage right now, to the point that on occasion she considers herself more dragon than elf. And you really have to know a bit from a region before you go there to play.. Sure, but it is often difficult to keep track of specifics. Still, while making things a bit harder (penalties on Cha checks, etc) for certain races/classes is fine, making it deadly seems a poor choice to me. That's my point - there is no rule mechanics for saying that a spell targets Dragon Disciples. You might as well say there's a spell that targets Barbarians, but not Fighters. Dragon Disciple is a PrC that gives specific abilities - it does not make one actually show up on a spell. You might think of yourself as being more Dragon than Elf, but as far as the rules are concerned, you're a Humanoid(Elf) until you take the 10th level of Dragon Disciple. |
| gomeztoo01-01-07, 02:07 PM | yes, but I can assure you that everyone notices Nesalia for what she is (besides being cursed). DD get scales, claws, fangs, and, eventually, wings. You don't need a spell. You just look at the girl. Most NPCs have a negative recation upon seeing her. Funny wnough, depsite low Cha, once she opens her mouth they often cool down - anything as nutty as her hast to be mostly harmless... Anyway, the point is that DD have cosmtic changes as part of their PrC. Unless they disguise it, they are readily recognizable. I assume the regional rules take this into account (in the same way that being a Tritherionite in Ahlissa does). |
| jstorrie01-01-07, 02:43 PM | It is indeed referenced in the Dragon Disciple's Natural Armor (ex) ability that the changes are visually noticeable. NPCs still ought to have to make Spot and Knowledge checks to recognize and properly interpret the visuals, though; this shouldn't just be instant grey-box hosing. |
| CrystalBlue01-02-07, 08:56 AM | The main basis behind this is that forces within Highfolk do NOT want Dragon Diciples. To become one, either in or out of region, you have to undergo the special mission. And no, not all mods are written with the untiered encounter. I can't really say which ones or how many, as that would be breaking the mod and I could be beat with sticks...and that would hurt. You have to understand, Highfolk and the Vesve have nothing against Dragon Diciples. In fact, I've met two in two mods last year: Goblin Knights and Twilight. Both of those featured dragon diciples. The real problem is that secretive forces know that you're a dragon. You have dragon blood, for Pelor's sake. And these secret forces control deadly forces. And the deadly forces ambush you. And by you, I mean only you. They are untiered encounters and almost never involve the rest of the party. Only the DD. So there should be a major warning in Highfolk. If you bring in your DD, don't say we didn't warn you. ^.^ |
| gomeztoo01-02-07, 09:08 AM | So you don't register with the authorities then (cause that doesn't sound hard)? Instead, you seek permission from the secretive forces to be a dragon, and not be killed on sight? A "you are for us or against us, and we are going to assume the latter by default"? |
| CrystalBlue01-02-07, 09:21 AM | ...Something like that. Again, I'd be giving things away if I told you, so I can't. But, that's the best way to put it, yes. |
| Mommy was an Orc01-02-07, 09:55 AM | The real problem is that secretive forces know that you're a dragon. You have dragon blood, for Pelor's sake. And these secret forces control deadly forces. And the deadly forces ambush you. And by you, I mean only you. They are untiered encounters and almost never involve the rest of the party. Only the DD. Which sounds very nice, but... Dragon Disciples, unless they have 10 levels of the PrC, are not Dragons. They do not detect as Dragons. They do not take more damage from foes with Favored Enemy(Dragon). They are affected by any spells that affect people, such as Enlarge Person, Dominate Person, etc...They are not affected by spells that only affect Dragons. Whether or not they have any more Dragon's blood at say 8th level than they did at 1st character level(when they were not a Dragon Disciple) is debatable. The way D&D rules work, is that in order for you to be considered a Dragon, you need to have the type Dragon. A Dragon Disciple only gains that as an effect of the 10th level ability. Obviously they can do it as Triad, but it is one of the most arbitrary, silly things I've heard of in LG. And just to emphasize, I do not have a Dragon Disciple, nor do I intend to make one, nor do I live in an area affected by this. |
| CrystalBlue01-02-07, 10:14 AM | It's not the fact that they detect as anything. Dragon's just know other dragons. Same as a fox knows another fox and a dog knows another dog. They know each other. No, they don't have a template or anything like that yet. But they have awakened something within themselves that makes them a dragon diciple. And other dragons can notice that. Call it an aura, a telepathic link, or whatever. But it's there. There aren't rules in the book for everything and one shouldn't expect there to always be a rule for the way things work. They just do. |
| Nutation01-02-07, 01:35 PM | [QUOTE=CrystalBlue;11061180There aren't rules in the book for everything and one shouldn't expect there to always be a rule for the way things work. They just do.[/QUOTE] But there should be a rule for this. The Triad is targeting a game mechanic (a particular PrC) and should use game mechanics. Particularly when it's explained by in-game motivations. And, there should be a certain level of in-game consistency. Are all sorcerers targeted? WotC clearly considers all sorcerers in 3rd edition to have draconic heritage (particularly those with Draconic Heritage feat). Wizards with pseudodragon familiars? You can't say that player characters know what a "dragon disciple" is regardless of whether the mystery NPCs do, so PCs should have some means of inferring who is at risk and who is not. Without in-game logic, that is impossible. |
| hoosierhayeslpe01-02-07, 03:30 PM | Year 6 question- In Bissel, you have to register with the authorities if you are an arcane caster, and they kill you for casting necromantic spells. According to the posts above, in Highfolk you have to register if you are draconic in some way, and they send elementals after you if you don't. Anyone else have anything like this going on in their regions? And is a Bissel spy allowed to collect info over the message boards?:) |
| CrystalBlue01-02-07, 05:22 PM | *sigh* Look...you're blowing something way out of proportion. Don't take everything placed everywhere as right and wrong, black and white. There's no rules on a lot of things used in the D&D world. There's a lot of times I wonder about things that aren't game mechanics that do mess with normal game mechanics. But it's the story-tellers way of progressing a story. A writter or group of writters that are trying to write a story shouldn't be constrained by the laws of a rule book just so everything is textbook. That would mean that everything is expected and predictable and no one would ever be surprised or enjoy playing a game. But...if you MUST be technical, you can always try to logically put things into prespective. Ok, so you're telling me that if NPC group #1 is looking to recruit or exterminate said PC, that they should have a way to detect if said PC is progressing down a certain path or power and enlightenment. Maybe the NPC group has a large scout and spy network that looks for awakening charictaristics in certain PCs. Maybe they have a group of seers that scry all corners of the Vesve. And why aren't Sorcerers or other spontaneous casters targeted? Maybe the alignment or power of thier blood isn't awakened to the proper level. You have to admit that going down the road of Dragon Diciple awakens something in the PC that's different then a spell caster. Maybe there's a way to detect this that only dragons and other Dragon Diciples know. |
| Japangirl01-02-07, 07:27 PM | In the BK, and Iuz metaregion in general, arcane casters aren't really allowed. You can get special dispensation to cast spells, but then you aren't allowed to use them against the forces of Iuz. However, it's a very minor wanted point to get caught casting spells, so by the time you're sixth level or so it doesn't increase your Wanted score any and there's no point in hiding arcane power anymore. The Wanted system is complicated, but basically you get 'points' for doing stuff that Iuz or his church or his minions don't like. Certain races get points automatically, and certain classes (clerics, paladins) do too. You have to pay a certain percentage of module gold as bribes to keep from being caught and turned over, and it goes up as you get more wanted (2%, 4%, 6%, 8%, 10%). Favors with certain people count as negative wanted points as well, and you can buy off some of the wanted points permanently by bribing records keepers to erase your name, basically. Over the course of a character's lifetime, it's very expensive and very annoying, but it does keep the flavor of the BK quite well as a bad place to be. |
| Mommy was an Orc01-02-07, 09:08 PM | *sigh* Look...you're blowing something way out of proportion. Don't take everything placed everywhere as right and wrong, black and white. There's no rules on a lot of things used in the D&D world. There's a lot of times I wonder about things that aren't game mechanics that do mess with normal game mechanics. But it's the story-tellers way of progressing a story. A writter or group of writters that are trying to write a story shouldn't be constrained by the laws of a rule book just so everything is textbook. D&D is not a novel. When a writer wants to write a novel, he should go elsewhere than D&D. The Triad, in the interest of story, has probably destroyed multiple character concepts in play for something which adds nothing. That's ridiculous. If they wanted to do it 'right', simply write it as part of the ongoing stories. Have one encounter in some mods where if there's a Dragon Disciple in it, it turns into a tiered elemental encounter, if there isn't, it is something else. Kill off a few prominent Dragon Disciple NPCs. Write a regular mod where Dragon Disciples are given various options - hide, report, or fight. Same general effect - Dragon Disciples live with a bounty on their head. As part of that AR, they have options in certain circumstances - my Bard goes around disguised whenever he's near Greyhawk. A Dragon Disciple with a good disguise check should be able to hide himself, but perhaps it takes a round to take advantage of the claw/claw/bite where there are witnesses. One that chooses to fight might draw untiered encounters, but he gains various benefits of being a public cry against a secretive force. Etc... The choice is on the PC, not the writer. And in D&D, not a novel, that's how it should be. Especially when the writer is proposing such a draconicon solution to those who chose not to report. |
| clannagh01-03-07, 12:39 AM | Getting back to the original topic ... The feats Ascetic Mage and Ascetic Knight might be worth a look. |
| CrystalBlue01-03-07, 09:02 AM | *rage builds* I swear...I hate it when people take writters and DM's for granted. No one likes a well crafted story anymore. All they want is combat, gold, and experience. Go play an MMO if that's all you're looking for. But don't put down writters for trying to turn a creative idea into an awesome story or storyline. This, obviously, is not the game for you. That aside, writters and DM's will do what they think is in the best intrest of story and PC enjoyment. If you don't follow their views or don't like how the rules might be against you, then you don't have to play in the region. Go somewhere else, or play only cores. I love Highfolk and the Shieldlands and I think everything they do in story and in game are great. So please, stop trying to think that you're the center of the game...cause you aren't. |
| gomeztoo01-03-07, 09:41 AM | Well, actually the players _ARE_ the center of the game. They're the heroes after all. Scenarios need to be written for the players. Which doesn't mean we (authors) have to cater to every whim of course. Sometimes things are not explained by a Core rule. Sometimes things are 'mysterious'. We have to give authors a bit of leeway here. |
| Mommy was an Orc01-03-07, 12:03 PM | *rage builds* I swear...I hate it when people take writters and DM's for granted. No one likes a well crafted story anymore. All they want is combat, gold, and experience. Go play an MMO if that's all you're looking for. But don't put down writters for trying to turn a creative idea into an awesome story or storyline. This, obviously, is not the game for you. I'm saying that Highfolk isn't crafting a good story, or at least this one element is an extremely bad reflection on the quality of their stories. That element might be great in a novel, but in an interactive experience it shows the writer taking a group of players for granted and relying on that group being small enough not to be able to protest effectively. If every player of a Fighter had to play a special mission just to not die in Highfolk, you'd better believe there'd be outrage from a large group of players. Instead, what would happen is what I laid out - the storyline would give ways for Fighters to either register, hide, or fight. It would be cool to play a Fighters, because you'd get the sense that you had a choice in the matter. There'd be some kind of way for a Fighter *not* to register and survive. It might have negative consequences, but it wouldn't be so cut and dry. So why isn't this happening with Dragon Disciples? Because the writers know there aren't enough players of Dragon Disciples in Highfolk to widely protest and can therefore take the easy route out. |
| Sieylianna01-03-07, 12:46 PM | So why isn't this happening with Dragon Disciples? Because the writers know there aren't enough players of Dragon Disciples in Highfolk to widely protest and can therefore take the easy route out. It's been this way forever, so people have years to make accomodations. Personally, I have been tempted to build a Dragon Disciple PC purely to go after the untiered encounter. but I hate to put that much effort into a throwaway PC. Ed |
| LachlarlanIII01-03-07, 12:52 PM | It's been this way forever, so people have years to make accomodations. Personally, I have been tempted to build a Dragon Disciple PC purely to go after the untiered encounter. but I hate to put that much effort into a throwaway PC. Ed It'd only be throwaway if you were unrecoverable. If your body can be recovered, get raised, and the next time you level, stay away from DD. ;) |
| gomeztoo01-03-07, 02:46 PM | I don't see this as a real issue if you live in the region. You should be well informed as a player, and have five levels to do that Special Mission to qualify. Where it can go wrong is if a visitor to the region finds out his PC runs a serious risk of being put ten feet under, either because he didn't inform himself, or the table he get mustered on suddenly can only be played with his DD char. I am pretty sure this doesn't happen a lot though, and you may wonder how well a region's Triad should cater to 'foreigners'. In a way, it sounds challenging to play a DD in Highfolk ;) Not smart, mind. But quite a challenge... |
| Nutation01-03-07, 03:10 PM | If they wanted to do it 'right', simply write it as part of the ongoing stories. Have one encounter in some mods where if there's a Dragon Disciple in it, it turns into a tiered elemental encounter, if there isn't, it is something else. Kill off a few prominent Dragon Disciple NPCs. Write a regular mod where Dragon Disciples are given various options - hide, report, or fight.[/QUOTE] The Pale does it the right way. Clerics of human gods other than the Blinding One have to put away their holy symbols and refrain from proselytizing. It's well publicized, the default penalty is minor, and it only escalates if the PC cleric is really a bonehead. |
| Sieylianna01-03-07, 06:35 PM | It'd only be throwaway if you were unrecoverable. If your body can be recovered, get raised, and the next time you level, stay away from DD. ;) I would expect that they would make the body unrecoverable. There's not much point in killling a dragon disciple, if he can be raised later. Ed |
| CrystalBlue01-04-07, 08:36 AM | I'm sure it's possible that the PC's can run away from these encounters, try to regroup with other PC's...but hiding is right out, because you're the one getting ambushed. If a Dragon Diciple came to my table and I had to judge that encounter...I would most likely let them run. If they tried to face the elemental, then I wouldn't hold back anything, because I warned them. Is that sufficient? |
| gomeztoo01-04-07, 09:06 AM | I guess trying to talk it out is out of the questions :P |
| CrystalBlue01-04-07, 09:58 AM | Oh, very much so. ^.^ I'd love a PC that would try and Bluff or Diplo their way out...mmmm, burnt dragon diciple... |
| gomeztoo01-04-07, 10:16 AM | But I surrender! Don't elementals have a Geneva convention thingy? *sizzle* Hey! Not my hair! *rages, makes tiny elemental shish-kebab* Now can we talk? (seriously no idea how tough such an encounter would be... it doesn't sound like teatime though) |